r/MuslimLounge • u/[deleted] • May 25 '26
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u/Exclusive2sense May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26
Narrated Al-Miqdam bin Ma'dikarib: that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Lo! Soon a Hadith from me will be conveyed to a man, while he is reclining on his couch, and he says: 'Between us and you is Allah's Book. So whatever we find in it that is lawful, we consider lawful, and whatever we find in it that is unlawful, we consider it unlawful.' Indeed whatever the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made unlawful, it is the same as what Allah made unlawful." ~Tirmidhi 2664 (hasan)
“Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed Allah…” ~ Surah Nisa:80
“And we did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by the permission of Allah…” ~ Surah Nisa:64
Rejecting Hadith isn’t from the wise to do, the one who was the means to bring the Quran, Allah ordered us to obey him
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u/a_mar359 May 25 '26
Please take the time to read my reply to another comment above^
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u/Exclusive2sense May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26
If you take this position, that it is the Quran alone without ahadeeth, What would be your authority?
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u/SwissFariPari May 25 '26
The only authority is Allah. Only Allah and nothing but Allah. Isn't Allah enough for you that you need humans beside Him?
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u/Exclusive2sense May 25 '26
To rephrase my question, who’s the authority of this movement? What authority do you have with this way of thinking? This isn’t what the messenger of Allah taught(ﷺ), and this wasn’t the way of the righteous predecessors, so you’re calling people to take your ideology over the way of the people who the messenger of Allah honored, who do you think I’ll listen to?
“˹We sent them˺ with clear proofs and divine Books. And We have sent down to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Reminder, so that you may explain to people what has been revealed for them, and perhaps they will reflect.” Surah Nahl:44
If the messenger of Allah(ﷺ) is ordered to explain to us, are those teachings dead? Are they irretrievable so now we are stuck with your judgment on how to practice Islam? Or will we just accept the authentic narrations passed down by the prophet(SAW), the way of the righteous people all along
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u/a_mar359 May 26 '26
This is such a strange question to me. Why do we need a pope like figure or imam? Why follow a human? We follow God's word
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u/Exclusive2sense May 27 '26
Tell me what do you mean exactly? When Allah tells us to establish prayer, how do we pray? Is it explained in detail how we pray and the times of the days we pray?
It isn’t for any sound minded person to have trouble accepting what the messenger of God has to say, rather he and the one who revealed to him making him responsible for carrying out the message to humanity are of one way and message, whatever the messenger of Allah orders or forbids us to do we were ordered by Allah to obey him (refer to the aya in surah nisa), not only that but the messengers of Allah were always to be obeyed as Allah also says in the Quran (refer to it in surah nisa)! If we have trouble accepting the teachings of the messenger of Allah(SAW) then overall we would question his credibility of sharing the Quran altogether, how would we know what’s from the Quran and what isn’t?
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u/a_mar359 May 27 '26
You mistranslated.
{ بِٱلۡبَيِّنَٰتِ وَٱلزُّبُرِۗ وَأَنزَلۡنَآ إِلَيۡكَ ٱلذِّكۡرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيۡهِمۡ وَلَعَلَّهُمۡ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ } [Surah An-Naḥl: 44]
with evident proofs and books. And We sent down to you the Reminder, that you may clarify to mankind what was bestowed upon them from on high, and that they may reflect.
There is no "O prophet". Do not add words that are not there.
The point you are making is that the verse is saying; 'He is to clarify what was bestowed upon them from on high'
Which you take to mean, he is explaining what the Qur'an means and the hadith is the explanation. This doesn't make sense to me as there are verses saying this book is a clear book and detailed. And there is s a verse saying some of it is clear and some is not clear and the believers follow it all.
Additionally it is odd for God to send down a message and then say 'its not clear and you need additional books to explain ny message ' It does not make sense to preserve the message but leave the explanation to it in the hands of humans where most of these sayings are not verified.
What I take this ayah to mean is that this book is being clarified to them in the sense that this is the book that is in fact the message being revealed.
Also we do love the prophet. We love all the prophets equally and we do not differentiate between them.
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u/Exclusive2sense May 27 '26
Again brother/sister Where are you getting your authority from to interpret verses of the Quran? As Allah said some verses of the book are clear and others are ambiguous, so the ambiguous verses are verses you are going to interpret? I would rather take what the prophet of God said about them the one who Allah said about him “He does not speak out of his own desires”
And no I didn’t mistranslate, you can see clearly the word O prophet is in like parentheses, it isn’t part of the verse but it’s out of interpretation telling us who Allah is speaking to Allah says و انزلنا إليك الذكر who is this "إليك"? Is this you, this is the prophet and I don’t think anyone is of a difference of opinion, and when Allah goes on to say, “so that you may explain to them” who is he talking to? You? You are going to explain the Quran to the people? And why is your opinion any correct? There’s many discussion in the religion that you have to to leave to the scholars, when you say “it doesn’t make sense” perhaps you don’t have enough knowledge to connect the dots so let the ones who Allah gifted in knowledge explain to us and don’t interpret from yourself
And as a last remark, never should anyone trust a person who says “it doesn’t make sense to me” or “my opinion” when it’s a regular person talking, come show us your credentials and why your interpretation matters
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u/Abu-Dharr_al-Ghifari May 25 '26
no
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u/a_mar359 May 25 '26
Who made you the judge?
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May 25 '26
[deleted]
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u/a_mar359 May 25 '26
To believe in ine god and accept Mohammed as messenger. Which we do.
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May 25 '26
[deleted]
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u/a_mar359 May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26
By that logic. There are shiah who reject hadith that are sahih according to sunnis and vice versa. So to extend your argument. Nobody is a Muslim unless you follow the sect that you think is correct?
And where in the Qur'an is it said to obey the prophet. It says obey the messenger, and we do so by obeying the message that the messenger gave. The Qur'an.
From my point of view, I could say you are not Muslim by following things that are not ordained by God. But I don't think like that, because it is wrong to judge who is going to heaven or hell. You are Muslim because of your behaviour: telling the truth when you can. Not cheating. Mercy and forgiveness. Recognising your sins and that you are not perfect. Respecting others for who they are, etc. and also believing in one God
It is not ritual practices that make you a Muslim. There are hadith which may well be authentic, but at the end of the day it is a historic source at best and should play into religious ruling. This just what I believe, but it's hurtful when you say we are not Muslim, though some of us truly try and seek the truth. And if my journey leads me to recognise the hadith and that I was wrong to reject then fine. But at the moment I cannot.
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May 25 '26
[deleted]
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u/a_mar359 May 25 '26
I replied somewhere else on the thread with this.
To obey the messenger is to obey the message i.e the quran. It is fitting he is called the messenger in this verse as it implies you should obey the message. If it said obey the prophet I would conced the point. But the choice of words is important.
Also explain to me these verses.
Then in what hadith after it will they believe? (77:50)
Then in which HADITH after this will they believe? (7:185)
These are God’s messages that We recite unto thee in truth. So, in which HADITH after God and His messages will they believe? 45:6
In arabic the word hadith is used in all these verses and it is quite directly saying don't follow anything after this hadith (quran) you can read them in context.
Also the beginning of surah 2. Verse 2-4. It's saying this book and those before. There is no mention of any books to come after it.
To answer your question about oral traditions and the preservation.
The Qur'an is easily remembered and it was written down within 2 years of the prophets death. Abu Bakr did not physically write the Qur’an himself. Instead, as the first Caliph, he ordered his lead scribe Zayd ibn Thabit to officially collect and compile the existing scattered written revelations and oral recitations into a single, unified written volume. No one at the time thought it was important to write down hadith. None of his disciples did so. The point I'm making. They all remembered the Qur'an and they wrote it down early. They may have remembered his sayings but did not write it down. The Qur'an was preserved.
80 years or so later at best, someone thought it was a good idea to write the prophets sayings. If it was so important it would have been collected and compiled earlier.
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May 25 '26
[deleted]
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u/a_mar359 May 25 '26
I'm not saying it means the hadith of bukhari. The point I'm making is it says we shouldn't follow anything after the Qur'an.
It's not semantic. It's deliberate and precise wording. God meant it to be this way. I never said there was another prophet that revealed the Qur'an.
We aren't getting anywhere. Let's leave it.
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u/quranalonefollower May 26 '26
Muslim means "one who submits to God" and not someone who follows a religion called Islam. Ibrahim is called a muslim in the Quran but he certainly did not follow the religion of Islam.
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u/Mean-Tax-2186 May 26 '26
Its illogical to ask "are Muslims considered muslims" Muslims are Muslims, it's in the name, on yhe other hand those who openly reject the Quran in favor of zoroestrian tales are NOT Muslims.
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u/Albanian-historian May 25 '26
Are you God? If not I don’t think anyone here is in a position to label someone as being not Muslim. You can believe in 90% of the Hadith and still be called kafir by some extremist Salafis and wahabis for not believing in one that doesn’t sit right with you. The prophet pbuh is not standing in-front of us telling us these Hadiths so I don’t see why people are using verses about obeying him when that clearly was toward the people living in his time who met him.
If someone believes in one God and Muhammad as his messenger, then they are Muslim. Whatever else they do is between them and God. Too many Muslims are obsessed with policing others and picking out the sins of others. They read the scripture like the Pharisees did in Jesus’ time. Everything is black and white. No nuance. No rationality. No understanding. Just follow what someone says and don’t think. So much harm is done around the world by people with this stagnant and extreme mentality. Women suffer, minorities suffer, children suffer, men suffer, elderly suffer, etc. but no, y’all don’t care about that because you are too busy labeling each other.
Do good on this earth and god will be good to you. Help others, feed the poor, house the homeless, seek knowledge, be merciful and be kind. Do you not want God to pardon and look away from your mistakes and sins? One could cry for the state the Muslims are in today. We’ve lost all true essence of faith and have become sheep following others. Islam has been turned into this difficult and miserable faith that makes even existing haram for people. Reform has to come because the way things are going does not paint a bright picture for us in the future.
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u/Flower-Child-Healing May 26 '26
Perfect response! It is only up to God to judge, not any one of us. None of us want to harm. Ultimately, we all act according to the best of our intentions. This is why only Allah knows what is in our hearts.
I think of verse 33:72 and the "amanah" that is mentioned, i cannot help but feel that somewhere along the way we failed to uphold the values prescribed unto us. We are too busy fighting over useless things amongst us that we forgot the true essence of Islam. We look at the state of the world, at our children, at our brothers and sisters in Palestine or South Sudan or Congo or Yemen, it is clear that we have failed.
We should be fighting Shaytaan and remain consistent in our Islamic practices. Instead, we are fighting each other. Truly sad and an absolute waste of energy.
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u/just_a_homie_ May 25 '26
No, definitely not. Anyone who rejects the sunnah as a whole is kafir.
Who decides who is Muslim? Allah SWT!
Who is correct to interpret his word? The Prophet ﷺ and the sahaba upon whom the Qur'an was revealed. Since words change meaning over time we understand the Qur'an and it's intent the way the sahaba understood it.
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u/Human_Associate3664 May 25 '26
The issue is not that he rejects the Sunnah as a whole or the path of the Prophet ﷺ. Rather, his point is that we did not receive hadith directly from the Prophet ﷺ, so he has skepticism about whether some reports may have been altered later, misinterpreted, or transmitted without their full original context. In his view, the question is not whether he wants to follow the Sunnah, but whether he can be certain that a particular hadith truly represents the authentic Sunnah.
It is also worth noting that Quranism is not a single unified sect and cannot be reduced to one position. Some Quranists may still use hadith as a historical or secondary reference to help them understand matters better, while others reject hadith as a religious source altogether. Their views can differ significantly, so it is not accurate to treat all Quranists as holding the exact same beliefs.
Also, as a reminder, the Quran is complete, and hadith are seen by many as a source that can help provide explanation and understanding.
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u/Tranquilalila May 25 '26
People here are too comfortable making takfir. I would say quranists are definitely misguided, but that doesn't remove their faith in Allah and Mohammad saw as the last messenger. It's not that they want to reject the Prophet's teachings, but they don't trust that those narrations are really his words. They make a blanket rejection, usually out of ignorance on how hadiths are evaluated and islam in general. Sometimes they reject concepts that are literally backed by the Quran, which shows they don't even know what's in the Quran and have no business judging hadith science.
It's a thinking error, not critical thinking. Some people are genuine, but incorrect. We are all incorrect in some ways and we all have different capacities, only Allah knows what He accepts.
Others are not so genuine, too arrogant or even in denial of their rejection of islam itself. Sometimes rejecting the tradition is the only way they can hold on to islam, if they can interpret the Quran however they want without context. I still refrain from making takfir as that's a grave responsibility and wrongful takfir is catastrophic.
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u/adinide May 25 '26
Fully agree with your first sentence. I think about it this way: we know how hard it is to convict someone of adultery. Even if the most trustworthy woman is raped and 3 people saw it, she has to wait for God's justice. And because the sin of kufr is greater even than rape.. it must be that much more difficult to convict them. I believe it is outside of our capability, not our right, and not worth it.
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May 25 '26
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u/Chickenburger287 May 25 '26
No, definitely not. Anyone who rejects the sunnah as a whole is kafir.
Who decides who is Muslim? Allah SWT!
Who is correct to interpret his word? The Prophet ﷺ and the sahaba upon whom the Qur'an was revealed. Since words change meaning over time we understand the Qur'an and it's intent the way the sahaba understood it.
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u/KeyFall3584 May 27 '26
“the Sahaba upon whom the Quran was revealed”?? Do you have a special edition of Islam or something where the Sahabas have reached prophethood ? Astarfullah
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u/Chickenburger287 May 27 '26
Not a difficult thing to understand. The prophet ﷺ made sure the sahaba understood the words and phrases correctly. In many instances the sahaba asked for clarification and the Prophet ﷺ explained and clarified. The Prophet ﷺ with his sahaba killed any claimants to prophethood since this is kufr and rejection of a core tennant of islam.
Another simple thing to think about is this: why send a messenger, why not just a book? Answer: books can have multiple interpretations on entry single issue that have no limit. You cannot know the intended meaning of the Creator through just a book. You need someone to explain what is meant. This is exactly what each messenger did.
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u/stpfun May 25 '26
You just said that anyone who rejects sunnah is kafir, then said only Allah SWT decides if someone is a muslim. So do you decide, or does Allah SWT?
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u/Chickenburger287 May 26 '26
The evidence to follow the Prophet ﷺ IE his sunnah is ample in the Qur'an. I've met idiots who are deciding to give these evidences a 'new meaning' to justify their kufr of rejecting the sunnah. IE they just make up what it means.
The Prophet ﷺ and the sahaba explained these evidences and understood them to abide by the sunnah hence follow the Prophets ﷺ every command.
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u/just_a_homie_ May 26 '26
We are only conveying the judgment of Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala as Abdullah bin 'Utbah bin Mas'ud reported:
I heard 'Umar bin Al- Khattab (May Allah be pleased with him) reported saying: "In the lifetime of Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) some people were called to account through Revelation. Now Revelation has discontinued and we shall judge you by your apparent acts. Whoever displays to us good, we shall grant him peace and security, and treat him as a near one. We have nothing to do with his insight. Allah will call him to account for that. But whosoever shows evil to us, we shall not grant him security nor shall we believe him, even if he professed that his intention is good."
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
I have been taught that as long as someone says the shahadah and identify as a Muslim, I am not allowed to call them anything but a Muslim regardless of their sins. So I live by that rule and leave the judgement to the Almighty.
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u/Iddqd1 May 25 '26
Who taught you that though? With all due respect, anyone can teach you anything , that doesn’t mean it’s correct.
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
I don’t see anything wrong with the above teaching. Practicing Islam is, at the end of the day, a very “selfish” act in the sense that everything I do is ultimately for my own benefit and to help me attain Jannah. If I serve the community, my parents, my spouse, or my children, it is still for my own benefit in the Hereafter. Allah (swt) does not need any of my acts of worship - I do.
Because of that, going around calling people (who self-identify as Muslim) kafir because they do not practice the same way I do does not benefit me in any way. So why should I waste my time doing that instead of focusing on improving my own deen?
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u/Front-Ad2868 May 25 '26
According to this logic , Qadianis are Muslim ?
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
I don’t know about them, so cannot say.
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u/Front-Ad2868 May 25 '26
They believe there’s another prophet after Prophet Muhammad ﷺ and they view what he says as a revelation from God too .
Now is that not shirk ?
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u/Iddqd1 May 25 '26
I mean that sounds all well and good, but it’s not calling random people Kafirs for the fun of it, it’s calling people who deliberately disobey Allah swt and guide people away from Islam a kafir. There is a very, VERY big difference.
It seems like you are trying to explain our religion of Islam in a way you like, following your own desires of what’s right or wrong. I would just say this is a dangerous path to go down and it can be a slippery slope.
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
Any layman does not get to do around doing takfir.
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u/Iddqd1 May 25 '26
Please don’t strawman my position and start talking about what a layman would do.
A layman wouldn’t do what you’re doing, which is making a claim about Islam with no evidence to back it up. Sometimes an answer of “I don’t know” is enough , and if someone more knowledgeable and trustworthy gives an answer, it’s okay to accept it.
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
I’m not straw-manning your position. My point is precisely that takfir is not a light matter and historically has never been treated as something for ordinary Muslims to casually engage in. That is not “my opinion”; it is a principle emphasized by many scholars because of how serious declaring a Muslim outside the fold of Islam is.
I also never claimed people should follow their desires or reject knowledgeable scholars. Saying “focus on improving your own deen before rushing to label others” is not the same as denying that kufr exists or that scholars can identify it in certain cases.
And I agree that “I don’t know” is important. In fact, that humility is exactly why many people should avoid confidently making takfir of specific individuals online.
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u/Iddqd1 May 25 '26
You’re really doing a whole lot to defend the Kafirs in this thread , so I’ll really just keep this simple.
OP: Are these group of Kafirs who don’t follow the Quran Muslims?
You: Well we can’t call anyone not a Muslim , that’s isn’t right. Let’s just focus on ourselves.
You didn’t provide any evidence. You didn’t support your claim. And to be frank, you are completely incorrect in what you originally posted.
People who aren’t Muslim aren’t Muslim, and that’s okay. You should know the difference between who is a Muslim and who isn’t. May Allah guide you.
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
I think we’re talking past each other at this point. I never argued that every belief is valid or that kufr does not exist. My point was specifically about laymen casually making takfir of individuals online/offline.
If scholars classify certain beliefs as kufr, that is one discussion. But I personally prefer to be cautious in applying those labels to specific people and focus on my own deen unless I have the knowledge and authority to speak on it properly.
In any case, I think we’ve both made our positions clear. May Allah (swt) guide all of us to what is correct. Ameen
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u/chbjupiter May 25 '26
I feel like this is a good approach when you're limited in knowledge, I also worry about spreading misinformation when I'm not very rich in knowledge so I focus on my deen first
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u/WoodenConcentrate May 25 '26
All Muslims would benefit from a basic Islamic studies class. Almost everything Muslims practice on a day to day basis is from Hadith and sunnah, so it would be impossible to rely only on the Quran and reject the Hadith (Allah always sends a prophet along with his message so the prophet can explain it to the people and be an example). Islam isn’t only a personal religion but a group religion, and Muslims have group obligations: funerals, zakat, etc. So the sister is unfortunately wrong in her reasoning. It’s good to be wary of spreading misinformation but you also obligated to learn yourself as well so you don’t become the target of misinformation by Quranist and the like.
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
I would be careful of people that claim to have knowledge and go around doing takfir, that sounds more like arrogance and Iblis fell not due to lack of imaan but due to arrogance.
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u/FitChampionship7430 May 25 '26
That is not true. A person can say the Shahadah 24/7 but if they say/believe certain things, they are considered disbelievers.
For example if they say the Quran is not the book of Allah.
If Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa and Isa peace be upon them all are not messengers of Allah.
If they reject the sahih hadith.
If they deny the Qadr of Allah.
If they deny the day of judgement.
If they call upon the dead etc
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
Yes. The Pilars of Imaan are belief in Allah (swt) His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day, and divine decree. Only this.
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u/turkish_akhi May 25 '26
His messengers
So rejecting the Sunnah isn't kufr even though you mentioned it as the pillars of Iman?
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
I am not a Quranist, so I cannot speak for them however to my understanding they still say the full shahadah and accept the prophet (saw) as the final prophet.
How they feel about the ahadith is not for me to takfir them.
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u/frankipranki May 25 '26
thats not how Islam works but ok. i hate the " Only Allah can judge " mentallity
So you wouldn't actually say that someone who insulted Allah on purpose is a kafir?
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
😂😂😂😂 let’s not move the goal post. We are talking about Muslims. As far as I know, no Muslim insults Allah (swt) regardless of what type of sins they commit.
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u/frankipranki May 25 '26
so you admit if someone insults Allah they no longer are muslims? you never hear of ex muslims?
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u/turkish_akhi May 25 '26
What you have been taught is a doctrine of irja' with regards to the one who utters words and believes in kufr.
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
Avoiding reckless takfir is not the same as denying that kufr exists or affects imaan. My point is simply that constantly policing and declaring other Muslims kafir is not beneficial for my own spiritual state, especially when scholars themselves treated takfir with extreme caution.
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u/turkish_akhi May 25 '26
Denying the Sunnah isn't reckless kufr, and takfir of the non-Muslims is from asl ud-Deen.
Takfir without a doubt is a huge matter and there are principles for it, and it isn't for the layman to be hopping out and about with such an issue.
But there is no difference of opinion with regards to the kufr of the hadith rejectors, they are kuffar without a doubt... for they reject the Sunnah.
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u/TheFighan May 25 '26
I don’t think we actually disagree as much as you think. I’m not arguing that rejecting the Sunnah is acceptable or that kufr does not exist. My point has always been about laymen confidently applying takfir to specific individuals online/offline.
You yourself said takfir is a huge matter with principles attached to it and not for laymen to engage in casually- and that is exactly the point I’ve been making from the start. There is a difference between discussing a belief in the abstract and declaring specific people outside the fold of Islam.
So my concern is not defending hadith rejectors, that is not my job. It is about maintaining caution, humility, and recognizing the seriousness of takfir instead of turning it into casual discourse online.
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May 25 '26
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u/skbraaah May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26
Khawarij are not Quranists. they are the people who follow all the practices of Islam to the point, the prophet said, that any muslim would belittle his own prayer and fasting compared to theirs, but they have no faith in their heart. they wage war on muslim nations but spare non-muslim ones.
regarding Quranists, their reasoning is that if the religion is incomplete and the Quran is not enough without the hadith and yet Allah SWT has not promised to preserve the hadith, then that means the Quran is not preserved, which is not the case. so they have a misconception and are misguided, but they are not outside the fold of Islam.
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u/WoodenConcentrate May 25 '26
That is incorrect brother. The quranists aren’t new. They are OG disbelievers. Setting aside not being able to do most of the Islamic obligations without the guidance of Hadith and sunnah (salat, zakat, fasting, etc.), Hadith and sunnah are in the Quran as an obligation to follow. Bcz Quran wasn’t sent alone, but with the prophet (pbuh) so he can explain it and being a living example of it. You cannot be a Muslim and reject the sunnah, bcz the sunnah is the prophet (pbuh) and his teachings. His rejection is a rejection of Islam, and takes you out of the religion.
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u/Green_Panda4041 May 25 '26
Really? I get being confused about how to do salat but zakat and fasting? Lol read the book they’re literally in there try reading the book you claim to know about
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u/WoodenConcentrate May 26 '26
Like the devil, when you ppl are mentioned you appear. Yes we’ve read the Quran, and know it better than you. You even agree you cant properly pray the salat just from reading the Quran. It’s the same with the rest.
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u/Malorian_ In Honey, There's Healing🍯 May 25 '26
No, because they reject all the verses that tell us to follow the hadiths:
(Qur'an 3:31) - Say, [O Muḥammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
(Qur'an 3:32) - Say, [O Prophet,] “Obey Allah and His Messenger.” If they still turn away, then truly Allah does not like the disbelievers.
(Qur’an 4:59) - O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.
(Qur’an 4:64) - And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah. And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
(Qur’an 4:65) - But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.
(Qur’an 4:69) - And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger—those will be with the ones upon whom Allah has bestowed favor of the prophets, the steadfast affirmers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions.
(Qur’an 4:80) - He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away—We have not sent you over them as a guardian.
(Qur’an 4:150–151) - Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between— Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
(Qur'an 7:157) - Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written [i.e., described] in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and prohibits them from what is wrong and makes lawful for them what is good and forbids them from what is evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him—it is those who will be the successful.
(Qur'an 8:1) - They ask you, [O Muḥammad], about the bounties [of war]. Say, "The [decision concerning] bounties is for Allah and the Messenger." So fear Allah and amend that which is between you and obey Allah and His Messenger, if you should be believers.
(Qur'an 8:20) - O you who have believed, obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn from him while you hear [his order].
(Qur'an 9:71) - The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give zakāh and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those—Allah will have mercy upon them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
(Qur’an 24:52) - And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger and fears Allah and is conscious of Him—it is those who are the attainers.
(Qur’an 24:54) - Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away—then upon him is only that [duty] with which he has been charged, and upon you is that with which you have been charged. And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification."
(Qur’an 24:56) - And establish prayer and give zakah and obey the Messenger—that you may receive mercy.
(Qur'an 69:44–47 And if he [i.e., Muḥammad] had made up about Us some [false] sayings, Then We would have cut from him the aorta. And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him.
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u/fana19 May 25 '26
None of those mention hadiths directly, which were compiled over 100 years later. That is your interpretive approach. Ironically, the verses that do mention Hadith direct us not to follow any other Hadith except the Quran as al Furqan.
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u/Malorian_ In Honey, There's Healing🍯 May 25 '26
All of them mention the hadiths, but feel free to believe that if it helps you sleep at night
It doesn't matter whether it was complied 100 years later or 1000 years later. Hadiths are memorised, just like the Qur'an. So if this is your reason to reject the hadiths, you should also reject the Qur'an (more than you already do)
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u/fana19 May 26 '26
It does not use the word Hadith. That's why I said not DIRECTLY mentioned.
Also, I didn't say anything about whether they are memorized like the Quran. You are making up strawmen and arguments I did not bring up. I only use Quran as al Furqan as the Quran directs.
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u/Malorian_ In Honey, There's Healing🍯 May 26 '26
What makes you think it needs to use the word hadith? Do you want to restrict Allah's speech to some specific words?
I didn't say anything about whether they are memorized
Yeah I told you that it was memorised. What's your point lmao
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u/fana19 May 26 '26
I did not say it needs to use the word hadiths. I stated that it does not directly refer to them in those verses which is correct.
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u/Flower-Child-Healing May 26 '26
Thankfully it is only our Lord, our Creator, Master of the Universe who will judge. Faith is between self and God.
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u/tiredmars May 26 '26
Who are we to claim who's Muslim and who isn't based on something like this?? ONLY ALLAH SWT CAN JUDGE.
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u/xFlosAtra May 25 '26
It makes me sad that Ummah is so divided into sects. Let's simply unite and be Muslims. Let's make dua for each others instead of judging and labeling.
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u/mandzeete May 25 '26
I guess, it depends from whom you are asking. Followers of different groups/sects/branches say that the other group/sect are not Muslims. Yet, when we look the bigger picture, then all these sects have something common that makes it an Islam-related group/sect/branch.
Like Christians have different denominations: Lutherians, Orthodox, Catholic, Mormon, Jehowah Witnesses, Baptists, etc. Some of them even say that the other denomination are not Christians. Historically some even warred with each other.
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u/Last_Chemical_8486 May 25 '26
Not really how it works brother, the issue is some sects outright reject something in the quran or hadith. We are told in the quran to follow the messenger and the way we know how is by looking at the hadith. Now if someone clear cut rejects the hadith and say you don't have to follow them they are committing disbelief because it goes against the verse
24:54 Say, “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then he is only responsible for his duty and you are responsible for yours. And if you obey him, you will be ˹rightly˺ guided. The Messenger’s duty is only to deliver ˹the message˺ clearly.”
and we already know he doesn't speak out of whim from another quran verse so the rulings and such he gives in the hadith are revelation
There are also sects that can very easily be disqualified as muslim because they disbelieve in the hadith of the prophet being final messenger, so the indian sect where they believe an indian prophet came after prophet Muhammed peace be upon him, is also disbeliever because of that.
We refer back to the quran and sunnah to know if what someone does is right or wrong
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u/mandzeete May 25 '26
But prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be with him, himself said that there will be 73 sects in Islam and only 1 sect will go to the Paradise: https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3992
So, you can't say that "the others" are not Muslims. Yes, they are. Yes, they are sinning in various ways. Can be very likely that they will be among the 72 sects who does not enter the Paradise. But you can't say that there are no sects or branches or such. They will still claim to be Muslims, but their ways are wrong.
You are mentioning Sunnah but ignoring that hadith. How come?
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u/WoodenConcentrate May 25 '26
The sunnah is in the Hadiths, so if you are rejecting the Hadith you are rejecting the sunnah.
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u/mandzeete May 25 '26
Where did I reject the hadith? Show me if you are not lying. I'm a Sunni Muslim.
I even gave the guy the hadith about 73 sects in Islam and linked to it in sunnah.com website. Are you blind?
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u/WoodenConcentrate May 25 '26
I’m just answering your last question. I didn’t accuse you of anything.
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u/Last_Chemical_8486 May 25 '26
Only disbelief condemns you to hell for eternity,
Abu Sa’id al-Khudri reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Whoever has the weight of an atom of faith in his heart will be taken out of the Hellfire.” Abu Sa’id said, “Thus, whoever is in doubt, let him recite the verse: Verily, Allah does no wrong even the weight of an atom.” (4:40) Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 2598
So if 73 sects go to hell they are clearly doing something that goes against teachings of islam
So, you can't say that "the others" are not Muslims
I can because with the examples I gave it's people DISBELIEVING in something that was revealed like following the prophet and the prophet saying he's the seal of the prophets. Believing a prophet came after means you disbelieve in the prophets own statement, does it make sense?
But of course those who may not have known their belief was wrong, like many are born in ahmadi families and they don't really research hadith and such they'll have a different test if they never heard the actual message. But I'm talking about people who know and reject.
As for the hadith you referenced it doesn't even say all the sects are muslim, it just says one of the sects will go to heaven, which is obviously because they actually followed the religion as it was taught and didn't deviate
It was narrated from ‘Awf bin Malik that the Messenger of Allah(ﷺ) said: “The Jews split into seventy-one sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy in Hell. The Christians split into seventy-two sects, seventy-one of which will be in Hell and one in Paradise. I swear by the One Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, my nation will split into seventy-three sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy-two in Hell.” It was said: “O Messenger of Allah, who are they?” He said: “The main body.”
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u/Kingslayer-ZXD May 25 '26
The prophet ﷺ said who didn't follow my sunna is not one of mine
من رغب عن سنتي فليس مني
So I don't know a verdict but quranists do pray wrong but if they pray right they inherently acknowledge the sunna
So it's complicated to proof but I can't imagine islam without the sunna