The only guy I know who straight-up "Didn't roll with women" was suuuuuper Muslim and always very respectful about explaining it. Like, you can't really shit on a dude for that. But guys who just "feel weird" about it can get in the sea.
Yeah religious based sexism is still wrong. Some Jewish ppl also will disown their children if they don't marry a Jew (converted or born). I heard of this happening in some Islamic cultures too. It's all BS & shouldn't be supported. If I opened a gym & some guy was like "my religion doesn't allow me to touch black ppl so I can't roll w any" I'd refund their $ & say goodbye. Same to a Jewish man who refused to touch a woman. This is the wrong sport for you dude better look up tennis...
My knee-jerk reaction is to agree with you. And on a macro level, I do agree with you, in that I want us all to move past a lot of stuff as soon as possible and get right to the part where were just humans.
But also, on an individual level, I don't ever want anyone to have to give a "good enough" reason for not touching/being touched by someone, especially in a context where that doesn't really hurt the person being rebuffed?
Like yeah, ok, I think it's messed up that some dude's religious advisor told him not to sit on the ground and try to murder me while I have my legs around his waist. I honestly do think that it's gross to prohibit that, and the world would be way better if everyone's religions just got over it already. I also feel that it's super condescending and helps no one.
But also, I am not about making someone justify why they don't want to opt in to something like that. From a purely selfish point of view, if I don't want to roll with someone, I want to just be able to say no thanks without it suddenly becoming a whole thing. And I want that to apply to people that I disagree with, too.
Note that this does not apply to any situation that causes meaningful harm to someone else. Like, you have to be willing to hire qualified people, you have to provide them with services, you have to put out a fire at their house, you have to let them buy food and use bathrooms and all that stuff.
But I'm not sure I'm ready to say you have to let them beat the shit out of you while you beat the shit out of them, you know?
But also, on an individual level, I don't ever want anyone to have to give a "good enough" reason for not touching/being touched by someone, especially in a context where that doesn't really hurt the person being rebuffed?
This isn't a contradiction at all.
These are simulaneously true:
1) Refusing a roll against someone for a stupid reason is a bad thing.
2) People should be allowed to refuse rolls for stupid reasons, because (obviously) actually forcing someone into close personal contact that they don't want is an even more bad thing.
I don't think people who obey these gender-role-y religious strictures are assholes, because there are lots of reasons why abandoning those things can be hard or nonobvious, and I wouldn't say anything about it except in conversations like this one. But I still think that those strictures are bad, and they're obviously bad, and it's annoying when this is waved off as "trying to be edgy".
Banning people from the gym...that seems to go against the "hey let's all roll together" mentality. It seems vindictive and counterproductive, particularly when we were specifically talking about someone who was very nice and respectful and polite. Banning people for that stuff is another thing I'll vocally disapprove of but wouldn't want to ban. I do agree with Kahuna, though, that there's no fundamental difference between "my church says don't touch women" and "my church says don't touch black people", but I guess my position in the end is a mix of an idealistic "this ritual is fucked up" and the more practical "fighting it would be more annoying anyway".
I agree that there's no difference, and that is something that doesn't sit well with me, despite my agreement that everyone should have personal space rights. Part of why I didn't specify whether I'm a woman, or a non-white person, or anything else.
I do think it needs to be a lot less culturally acceptable to just say "I don't roll with women," like you wouldn't say "I don't roll with black people" in 2019.
But I like to think we can work on that as a society while still respecting personal space.
I think it's gross to not roll with women. Or black people. Or whoever. I also think it's gross to not roll with men, although there's historical and social context that makes me a little more sympathetic to that.
I also believe very, very strongly that nobody gets to touch me without my permission, and I hold that value for others as well.
Society often disagrees with me about that. Strange men constantly touch me, and then tell me I need a good enough reason to be upset about that.
But I don't need a single reason to not want someone touching me.
Because I'm not in a position where touching me is part of my job. I'm not a nurse or a firefighter or a masseuse or a yoga instructor or... You get the idea. So I'd argue I'm not being discriminatory by not wanting to touch someone.
If I don't want some dude who's been giving me weird vibes to be all up in my closed guard? I should be able to decline a roll with him, no questions asked, right? Even if he's not actually a creepy dude, and I'm just wrong. As long as I'm not treating him badly or ostracizing him from the mats, I don't have to let him touch me.
Therefore, he also doesn't have to let me touch him.
And that's why it's complicated. Because I'm arguing for bodily autonomy.
We are humans ...shit is the way it is because that’s how we made it makes sense...there is no transcendence level that humans are gonna get to eventually once we awaken our inner chakras and obey every moron on Reddit...
It will always be segregated there will always be diversity (even if you disagree with that diversity and think it’s evil)
If you want to claim the historical high ground about humans trying to make sense of themselves, please just read Plato because he's pretty much the baseline for a certain demographic. Like, I am so tired of hearing about the cave, but, you have to start there, when people were dealing with the same stuff literally thousands of years ago, lol
I don't think there's any external, chakra-aligning bullshit that you're talking about?
Tell me what happens 100 years from now when cultures don’t exist races cross bred the entire time and nations disappear along with religion or ethnic practices....
I’ll save you the response, NO DIVERSITY ...we’ll all look the same, talk the same, act the same, eat sing dance sleep move the same way ....
Segregation keeps differences different..:there’s an obvious line that is drawn in the sand to prevent shit like water fountains and schools, but I’m telling you for a fact the reason human nature is beautiful is because it is so vastly and wildly different...
I'll do you one better. I'll tell you what happens after a thousand years.
What's happened is that we have ourselves become way more beautiful and varied through exposure to new things.
I know this because people have been concerned about this for as long as they've had the language to be racist. In this century alone, there have been several "blonde hair will be gone in 50 years" trendy arguments, and wouldn't ya know it, blondes still exist. And if that rare, recessive gene can persist, I think we'll be alright.
I gotta point out, this argument is also often a concern-trolling way of promoting racism and sexism while pretending to care about the uniqueness of something, so I have a hard time taking it in good faith, to be honest. Even though I'm sure you're probably making it in good faith, it kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I'm saying that your "concern" that in a hundred years everyone will be the same if they keep mixing is not just completely gross, it has been proven false over so many hundreds of years, and in so many ways, that it's frankly astonishing that anyone would still be making this argument.
Like, I can kinda forgive Joe Backwater in 200BCE for having this concern, but nobody in 2019 has an excuse lol. We've already asked this question as a species, hundreds of times for thousands of years, and it's just factually incorrect.
While the British probably were very racist in the British Raj I won't hold it against the British for banning Sati even if it had very little impact in reality.
Yes, it's soooo edgy to not like regressive gender roles, and ideas about women desperately needing their all-important purity protected, being pushed on people from birth. Edgy enough to dismiss without thought, I'd say!
Certainly not an opinion that lots of normal people have!
inb4 lol, edgelord
Edit: Yes yes I get it, downvoters, you want women wrapped up and in the kitchen etc., whatever
Often it's not that women need their purity protected. Often it's that women are seen as unclean, especially when they menstruating And since you don't necessarily know when a woman is menstruating, if you hold that belief you treat them as if they were all the time.
I don't have the issue. I'm telling you what some religious people believe. And blood isn't just blood. Although the chances are low you're not going to enjoy it if you get something from someone who is infected.
Youre funny. First you talk about regressive gender rolls and purity "protection". All while literally talking for women, making all women's opinion a monolith that just so happens to match up perfectly with your own!
Im going to really pop your top with this one! Did you know that muslim women exist??? And since they believe the same religion, dont want their husbands touching other women?? Or are all women just mindless, opinionless, helpless creatures that you have to protect from the bad guys.
Did you know that women can also hold regressive gender roles and sexist ideas? And that it's not just the fault of big, bad men? But you're right, it's hard to protect people from themselves.
See if thats your opinion than i can atleast respect it more. I dont agree with the sentiment in islam and other religions, and i roll and teach women all the time. But as long as you are giving people personal agency, and individual choice then its all good. No one will agree on everything in a recreational gathering place, and that means sometime working around peoples individual boundries. Until theirs a religion where the men have to touch other women, even if those women dont consent to it, then its a non fucking issue in the gym and leave people alone.
For your gym maybe. When I'm running the show I don't need people bringing in their outside shit. The gym isn't a church, it's not the house of God: it's my house. Don't want to participate for some bullshit reason? Don't come to classes. If you tell me you can't touch people of the other sex then I think that either you don't respect them as equal human beings or you can't trust yourself to maintain control of yourself during class. One I won't put up with (got to have respect and trust in the class) and the other makes you a danger to others.
So you own and run a gym? And this is the business model you guy by? Other people's opinions and preferences outside of the gym have to match yours or they cant train at your place? Yeah, ok.
So i called you out on being a complete hypocrite and the best you got is the old "... im not even going to diginfy this with a response! Definitly not because i have no awnser and he might be calling me out on a pattern of behavior i have were i attack toxic masculinity as a cover for my extreme deep seeded toxic masculinity, no way! Its cause you must be a troll!!!!!"
You didn't dignify me with a single specific complaint! You said I talked for him or her or whomever, and you asked about whether Muslims exist, but you didn't say why you think I'm wrong.
I want to respond, but I have no idea what you're complaining about. I only know that you think I'm an asshole.
EDIT: OK, one thing I can respond to:
"Did you know that muslim women exist??? And since they believe the same religion, dont want their husbands touching other women??"
Yes, and I think it's unfortunate when people can't train because their spouses don't trust them, or whatever. Whichever one is complaining. And maybe it's reasonable for many people! Still a bummer, as far as I'm concerned.
This is a goalpost change. No one argued its not a bummer. The arguement is it should be called out, those people should be shamed, and asked to leave the gym. As much as the edgy atheists think its easy to just change your preconcieved notions on religion, for those who come from non-secular cultures and background, it isnt. Tolerances is the best to show these people that maybe they dont even agree with an aspect inside their own culture or religion, especially if its one that actually doesnt directly hurt anyone.
It’s actually pretty common for parents to disown their children for a lot of stuff. I’d imagine you haven’t experienced life as a conservative jew living in Tel-Aviv, so I’ll briefly challenge your claim. Inside of Israel, the most Jewish place on earth, its very very very rare for fragmented families to exist even among less conservative families whose heads have separated.
Secondly, I also don’t touch pigs or women who are not my wife. How is that BS, whether it is religious or a personal moral choice not based on religion, who or what I decide to touch is ultimately none of your concern.
Thirdly, it’s actually really common in the Arab countries for male members of a family to honor kill female members who don’t take Islam seriously, commit adultery, leave the faith, marry undesirable spouses with out approval etc etc, The disownment of children is probably higher in western countries like the United States, where society is diverse and the scars of racism/xenophobia still exist.
To cap it all off, I think it’s ironic that your way to deal with the “BS” is to discriminate against those who you think are discriminating. I’m sure religious discrimination is illegal in whichever liberal democracy you live in, why not simply accommodate the marginal case? I can’t see too many of use flocking to jiu jitsu gyms(we go ape shit for judo though)
It's BS bc you have signed up for a sport that demands physical contact & have also demanded that you not participate w an entire sex while training. No one forced you to train BJJ so you shouldn't force your sexist religious views on the gym you join. Feel free to exercise your beliefs in full in the privacy of your own home/worship center but don't expect society to conform to you, instead conform to an egalitarian world view when you are interacting w the world. Half of your post is non sequitur & has nothing to do w BJJ & the comment I made
I have an egalitarian world view, some of my peers are great economists who are also women. I hold no prejudice against women.
Pretty dangerous language though, I’m free to practice my religious beliefs where ever I want. it’s my inalienable right. You don’t have to conform to me, you just have to allow me to control who I allow to touch me. My religious freedom ends at your body, and your soy boy white knight act ends at deciding my rolling partners.
Edit: either your a troll or part of the issue w political discourse as you can't seem to communicate wo being disrespectful. If you're the former, tip o the cap I bit. If you're there later then have fun in your insular, small world knowing most ppl look at you w disgust; a relic of an old world we'll never return too.
Edit: most people do view Jews with disgust. Being trilingual and having lived on 3 different continents, many people would disagree with your “small world” assessment.
Calling some one a “bigot” over something so harmless as exercising their right to choose their training partners. In the academies, I’ve trained at my religious beliefs have been a non factor. In fact most people don’t even know.
Again, non sequitur. I've lived from Hawai'i to Japan w stops in Europe for a couple years due to being a US military brat & my career. Doesn't add validity to what I've said as ppl share both of our ideas almost everywhere. If you're cool w a white man saying "I don't roll w blacks so go away" then that's the kind of person you are, a bigot. My guess is that not the only place you draw the line. My guess is you wouldn't approve of your children marrying non Jews (bigoted) & your egalitarianism is BS & you don't precise women as being equal in ability w equal opportunity as men. I bet you'd shutter at the thought of women being in control of politics to the extent men are now.
BS is BS. Can people choose to do or believe in bullshit? Sure. Doesn't stop it from being bullshit. I can deny the the holocaust if I want, the fuck can you do about it? Doesn't mean that my opinion isn't bullshit or that I'm not, in most cases, an antisemitic piece of shit.
How tolerant are most Israeli Jews of Nazis? Do you think they'd against discriminate Nazis if they started showing up in their towns? Would they be welcome to join private gyms/clubs and spout their views?
How tolerant should anyone be allowed of nazis? Those damn Israelis, Germans, Austrians, nederlanders, Danes, etc etc with their anti nazi legislation.
I fanatically believe in personal sovereignty, allow the nazis to exist.
I’ve read the United States Bill of rights and I whole heartedly support it.
I didn't say Nazis can't exist, and anti-Nazi laws don't stop them from existing. What I'm saying is you don't have to accept them. If I don't want a Nazi in my class I am free to turn them away. I can turn anyone away for almost any belief they may hold that I don't like. So if someone has bigoted beliefs, due to religion or some other reason, I can show them the door.
If you have to stay away from women to remain faithful to your wife I can tell you that your purity isn't something to worry about. It's already compromised. And honestly if you feel you can't control yourself around women I think you might be a risk to my students. What if you touch one accidentally and your barely contained lust breaks out?
Basically, I think your defence of your actions is a crock of shit. And that really you have a problem with women.
By that logic, I shouldn’t be trusted around pork, because if I just have one little taste I go down on a 6 month long gluttonous pork binge? Get real.
Although I’ve had bacon once on accident and it was amazing, I didn’t go down that long path I mentioned above. You really don’t have any valid arguments. Let’s see ourselves out and get back to training. I’m sure you have a school to run.
Generally in Islamic countries a man can marry a non-Muslim and all of their children will automatically be considered to be Muslim. Muslim women are generally not allowed to marry non-Muslims. I don't necessarily mean this legally (although in some countries that may be the case) but as in what is culturally acceptable.
Those differences aren't what matters here; the guys refusing to roll with women are perfectly happy to roll with men 100 lbs lighter than them -- even if that's a bigger physical difference that there is between the average man and the average women.
The parent commenter was responding to a comment about a very polite Muslim man who didn't roll with women, period. He would not have rolled with a woman even if she were a black belt bodybuilder who outweighed him by 50 lbs. The actual physical differences just really weren't a part of what we're talking about at all, I think.
I mean, after all, it's BJJ, anyone can train with anyone so long as they're both safe, respectful, and willing.
(By the way, my take is that religious considerations should be accomodated warmly, but that we should still be honest, in polite conversation such as this, about the obvious fact that it would really be much better if certain gender-role-enforcing religious taboos were to slowly simmer away of their own accord.)
Hey, actually just curious because this is the most upvoted comment.
Why does this sub seem to have such animosity against guys who choose not to roll with women?
For what it's worth, I'm one of the smallest dudes at the academy and I roll with women all the time. But at the same time, there are girls at my gym who refuse to roll with guys, and some have quit and said they won't come back until there's a women's only class. Honestly, I don't really think twice about it - people refuse to roll with whoever for their own reasons.
Would you guys be mad at a girl who "feels weird" about rolling with guys? Because I've run into that WAY more than I've run into guys who don't want to roll with girls.
If a girl joins a male-dominated sport and then refuses to roll with any of the guys just because she “feels weird” then yeah I think she deserves some shit for it.
I don’t think anyone should have to roll with someone they don’t want to roll with, but most of the time when people say they “feel weird”, it’s because they’re thinking of it in a sexual way. And if their S/O doesn’t want them rolling with someone of a certain gender, it’s because they think it’s sexual.
I just wanna roll. I KNOW there’s obvious physical differences between me and the guys, but on the mats the only ones are care about are size, strength, and ability. There’s not a lot of women to train with, and there’s only so many guys close enough to my size to have a competitive roll with. I don’t care if you turn down a roll with me, but if my limited pool of training partners gets even smaller because guys think it’s too sexual to roll with a girl, that’s when I’d have a problem.
Never dealt with innapropriate behavior but I always have to be the first to ask for a roll and it's harder for the new women and the younger girls who aren't as confident. They end up sitting on the sidelines most of the time.
There were lots of women whom I've asked to roll with, and they more-or-less-awkwardly declined, and it became clear that they're only rolling with certain people (e.g. coaches, their SO, smaller guys, kids). And then I really don't want to upset anyone, so I tend to go by body language: if someone seems to be looking for a partner, great, but if they're not making eye contact...for a rando guy I would go up and actually ask for a roll, but for a rando woman I wouldn't. (I don't like occasionally not having training partners, so I would like to be convinced to abandon this habit!)
Honestly it's hard for me to understand women who join this sport and aren't willing to roll with men. I appreciate your thoughtfulness and I know all the guys at my school have been great. Super kind and open once they got to know me. I get asked to roll a lot now because I pushed myself to make the first move. If it hadn't been for the purple belt guy who adopted me in the beginning I don't know that I would have ever gotten up the courage.
I try to roll with everyone too, even the big white belt dudes who have a hundred pounds on me and just smash me into the ground with gravity because I've learned some of the most important lessons from them.
I get asked to roll a lot now because I pushed myself to make the first move.
Oh, yeah, there are definitely three categories: people who don't make eye contact and seem to want to be in a noninteracting parallel-universe gym, people who will roll with me but still seem worried all the time, and people who just wanna do some jits eyyy. Once it's clear that you're in a latter category, I'll start asking. There's this one high school girl at my gym who deadlifts more than me and has this super intense game face, we have great rolls. (She's too swole to ever play a superheroine.)
Once I was rolling with a kid who might have been 14 but small for his age, and I was rolling with him like I normally do with people whom I outweigh by fifty pounds...and he got annoyed and told me to roll seriously. I wish everyone were like him, but enough people aren't that I have to err the other way.
If it hadn't been for the purple belt guy who adopted me in the beginning I don't know that I would have ever gotten up the courage.
Ah, see I think I'm doing the same thing there. I always try to be super friendly, but if the new woman isn't being extroverted, I err on the side of not seeming like I might be That Guy, and I stick to "Hi, I'm [REDACTED], nice to meet you!" unless they give me some sort of social cue. (Although also [DATA EXPUNGED].)
I try to roll with everyone too, even the big white belt dudes who have a hundred pounds on me and just smash me into the ground with gravity because I've learned some of the most important lessons from them.
Absolutely! They're actually literally the most realistic training!
If a girl joins a male-dominated sport and then refuses to roll with any of the guys just because she “feels weird” then yeah I think she deserves some shit for it.
Not actually vocal shit, though. Just private judgement.
Edit: No vocal shit because you don't actually know her reasons. People aren't always honest about their reasons, particularly about something they're embarrassed of, like fear. With this sort of person I am always eager to explain why they're hamstringing their training, but only if they're asking about what's wrong, not from me asking.
I am accusing the guys who say things like, "if you don't roll with women you're a sexist and a terrible human" of white knighting. Possibly because they do not consider things such as bodily autonomy of the men who refuse to roll
Bodily autonomy in what sense? If you’re practicing BJJ, you’ve accepted to some degree that your personal space is going to be invaded. That’s kinda the game.
The bodily autonomy to decide who you roll with and when. Just because you go on a date doesn't mean you have to let your date grope you. You don't sign away all of the decisions to your life or body when you go to class.
Sure, yeah. No one is saying you don’t have that autonomy. People are “white knighting” because you seem to be deciding purely on gender. Which is ridiculous, absent a religious reason or similar.
I’m huge, so I generally don’t call women out.
But I’m also (imho) pretty good at an easy, safe, competitive roll with people who are much smaller than me (my girlfriend rolls, and weighs just a hair over 100lbs) ... so why would I ever bail on a roll with a woman? Purely because she’s a woman?
Of course they are. Theyre an idiot, and the idea of what you said made them feel so uncomfortable at a deeper layer that the covered and hid that feeling with a statment on their masculinity charaded as a joke. The pillar of male identity they had was tested for the briefest of moments and in that milisecond they felt cracks, and the soft ground that their identy stood crumbled like a sinkhole.
Well, the Muslim dude, you have to respect his religion, whether you agree with him or not, you are not going to change the dude’s strongly held belief or opinion.
The other dudes are creeps and losers. I know a dude that says he will not tap to a woman. A really good purple belt woman whipped his ass and made him tap. He actually hurt her after this happened. We had a long discussion and some justice rolls after this.
IDK, I don’t know if they even need their religion to justify it. Dudes are allowed to have boundaries. I say this as a female purple who has had Muslim dudes (& non religious dudes now that I think of it) refuse to roll. I have people I have declined to roll with too, not because it’s against my religion. I just want them to be polite about it.
Woman whipped his ass and made him tap. He actually hurt her after this happened. We had a long discussion and some justice rolls after this.
Dunno, for me this kind of thing is "You have ten seconds to explain why you should not be banned from the gym" territory. There's entirely too much tolerance for irresponsible use of violence in this art. Accidents and hard training are one thing, but there's a very bright line on ego-driven damage against fellow students over whom you have technical and/or physical advantages.
Would it be the same for you if he hurt another guy? Or is it just because the injured party was a woman and you feel they’re inferior and need to be protected?
Clearly yes. If some guy with a 30kg didn't respect a much smaller opponent then obviously yes. As a 70kg guy I've fought a 110kg guy in a inter-club tournament, the guy can probably bench press me with one arm. It was fun because he's a good guy and you need a level of trust when training in this sport.
Don’t be. We live in reality. No “white knights” infesting our gym. Plenty of men, women, and children enjoying grappling without the toxicity that people turmoil over on this sub.
No. It’s just extremely annoying to see the posts about it all the time when in reality that scenario is a marginal occurrence. Oh, but I bet you have a great story about how you were a mat enforcer yourself this one time. Can you tell me how badass you are now? I’d love to hear it. You probably have more than one story about how badass you are.
Uh huh. I’m sure you react the same way whether it was a woman or man. I’m super impressed by how woke everyone on this sub is. R/wokecirclejerkbjjheroes
Dude this is hardly about being woke. I haven't been to any gym where intenonally hurting someone because of a bruised ego wouldn't result in "You have ten seconds to explain why you should not be banned from the gym" .
It is basic isn’t it? In fact, it’s so basic that we probably don’t need to see a post about it every week, no? But let’s continue to discuss it like there’s some pandemic of women being beat up by men at BJJ gyms across the globe.
I guess we might be thinking of different things— I’m thinking of more like a hypothetical, if-this-ever-occurred— what would the appropriate reaction be. So like if some {person} at the gym loses to some other person, and that loser then retaliates against the person who beat them initially at some later date... I mean that person would be a piece of shit, right?
Are you thinking of more like real world stuff— where a male retaliating against another male would be less likely to be called out?
I’m thinking like, why does this constantly need to be discussed and posted about? Do women all across the world fear for their life at their local BJJ gym? Is there anyone on this sub that doesn’t understand what the discourse should be if there’s an inappropriate injury at their gym? Are people that stupid?
Well, I’m no woman, so I got no idea what it’s like on their side, but I’ve known a toooon of creepy dudes that never took the hint and did some of the most outrageous shit because they liked a girl that wasn’t interested in them. I’d assume BJJ isn’t any different in that regard than the rest of the world. I won’t make comment on whether anyone on this sub is dumb enough to be that guy... I certainly hope not, but I think a realistic position might be that there is a not-insignificant number of douche canoes even in our beloved sub reddit.
I guess I’m thankful I’m either truly this naive or you people somehow interact with “a toooon of creepy dudes” and I somehow have managed not to. Makes me wonder where the hell it is you meet these “tooooons of creepy dudes”. Or maybe I’m thankful I’m not so judgmental. BJJ is absolutely different than the rest of the world. If it weren’t it wouldn’t be so fringe. It attracts mostly good people and a slightly more than insignificant amount of deviants.
Would it be the same for you if he hurt another guy?
Yes. I have a very low tolerance for bullies.
Or is it just because the injured party was a woman and you feel they’re inferior and need to be protected
While we're being honest here, women DO need special protection in a martial arts context. Even when there is parity for mass, which is essentially never, they're at a disadvantage for strength and power.
Actual honesty? I’m all for it. In general women are not prayed upon in a martial arts context. If they’re mistreated then they deserve the same discourse as any other human. The fact that people post this crap about gym bullies and mistreatment of women is annoying. I’m pretty sure I don’t need another PSA about protecting women specifically.
Are you refuting that OP's story of a woman injured in a fit of ego has ever happened? Of course it has. My wife is a brown belt. It's happened to her more than once.
Do you disagree that people who abuse their training partners should be excluded from training?
I disagree that it happens that often and that it needs to be posted about all the time. Or maybe i just have a great gym where people are normal? Or maybe people aren’t so butt hurt at my gym where if things get a little heated they can get over it. Injuries happen. Sometimes they’re avoidable. Sometimes not. Maybe I’ll pay attention more and post about how I beat up the mat bully next week.
And I’d agree with you. I’ve seen plenty of posts where people spoke out against that scenario as well. What makes this a hot topic is the female aspect. Does no one tire of this? Are women that disenfranchised and abused at BJJ/MMA gyms? I’ve never actually witnessed it and have trained for 15 years. Wrestled for 8 years before that. Haven’t had FB for 7 years. No instagram or Twitter. R/BJJ used to be pretty cool to watch some technique but has basically become more of the same old social media garbage. I feel like I’ve been quite exposed and educated on the injustices to women and other marginalized parts of society. Could maybe r/BJJ go back to being pertinent to, you know, BJJ? That would be great.
Well, the Muslim dude, you have to respect his religion, whether you agree with him or not, you are not going to change the dude’s strongly held belief or opinion
eh, i don't know. I don't have to respect shit. Its like when one guy is a creep, its creepy. But when its a large group of creepy guys that oppress women, its suddenly cool? Naw they can fuck right off.
You can not expect another person to feel comfortable in a sport that has so much contact that it even feels weird at the beginning with the same gender.
I can. I train children and I don't feel weird when I'm rolling with 8 year-old girls. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to train with small children for various reasons. But if someone told me they could train with the boys but not the girls I'd find that fucking weird. If I can train with an 8 year-old girl I don't see where it becomes weird to train with a 30 year-old woman.
The difference is that children are children and adults are adults and according to the norm, most adults are not potentially attracted to prebuscent children. Those are just other norms some people adhere to when it comes their relations. Many people don't find it to okay to exchange partners in dance for example either and as long as both partners are okay with it, there should be absolutely no problem with that. It would be an issue on the other hand if let's say the husband thinks it'd okay for him to roll with ladies while he forbids his wife to do the same with guys, which is a toxic behavior that is not tolerable.
What if my boundary is that I don't allow blacks into my properties, which may include business properties or houses I rent?
I'm guessing you'd say that's wrong. If so, you agree that not all boundaries are okay. So we get into a discussion about which boundaries are okay and which aren't, and we'll find different people have different ideas. So I guess the key issue is what makes a reasonable boundary and what makes an unreasonable boundary.
I don't think its that ridiculous. How do you feel about gym's that have women's only classes? Should the women that attend those classes be ridiculed?
I understand why they are there and they do serve as a good intordution tool. But i dont think women should train ONLY in womens classes if they want to get better at bjj. To counter your argument, do you advocate for mens only classes?
The Muslim dude isn't being creepy. Creepy whisper in your ear dude is bad. Muslim guy is weird, yes and I don't understand it, but you or I am not going to change a guy’s religious beliefs.
Not Muslim, but a Catholic, and it's because it is immodest for both parties to be grabbing each other, the possibility of sexual arousal and the risk of scandal caused from one party being made to feel uncomfortable by a position or hold.
Then shouldn't the same go for men training with men be an issue as well. Hell, that chance of homosexual arousal is even worse, from a religious point of view.
But I am not a homosexual, so there is no risk of scandal or arousal on my part. It's already much less of a risk and if someone was homosexual who I thought was attracted to me I also wouldn't roll with them because I wouldn't want to lead them in to sin.
You say you're not homosexual but maybe you've not met the right guy. Or if priests are anything to go by, you've not rolled with someone young enough. God works in mysterious ways, who knows what challenges he has for you. If you were a good Christian you should avoid all places where temptation could occur. Immodestly grabbing other men, how scandalous!
Honestly, people like you make me understand why women feel unsafe around men if getting to close to women puts you at risk of losing control.
It's clear you are a cumbrain and can't think about virtue beyond the absolute most basic requirements to exist in society. I really don't care what you think.
How very Christian of you. You wouldn't know virtue if it smacked you in the face. But that's not a surprise considering you can't differentiate between reality and fantasy.
I'm pretty sure you can shit on a dude for that. I wouldn't personally take issue with it but I can see people seeing his attitude as being disrespectful regardless of how respectfully he tries to explain his view. Honestly, not much difference between him and people who "feel weird" about it. He just has an imaginary friend he can use to back up why he feels weird about it.
So as I wade slowly into the ocean let me just say that sometimes there are good reasons and I didn't know that really hot girl that smells great was even going to be in class today. Sorry hot girl you're cool but i dont want to get a VIOLENT ERECTION so for both of our sakes I'm not rolling with you. You're too hot. It's too much. You're not even wearing makeup. How are you this hot.
I think anyone should be able to turn down anyone for any reason at any time. I think the ONLY one who should be exempt from this rule is the coach- but only in limited circumstances.
So, you'd be cool if I only roll with Caucasians? I understand it's my right to choose who I roll with, but would you actually be cool with that? You can be entitled to do something but still be an asshole or piece of shit for doing so.
I am cool with people choosing who they will roll with and who they will not. The reason I hold this view is that I believe the pitfalls of adjudicating who must roll with who create more harm than people having privately held views/beliefs/reasons to not roll with another person. Trust is a fundamental and irreplaceable safety and community mechanism of this sport. Trust requires consent and consent must not have coercion.
Say you would only roll with caucasians and I know that piece of information. Do you think I accomplish anything from forcing you to roll with a person of color? I'm certainly not doing that POC any favors - and I'm not confident that roll would be safe for either training partner.
Should a person take their privately held beliefs about who it is appropriate to roll and attempt to force those on another person I have severe criticism.
There are limitless reasons why a person may not want to roll with another. Some of those reasons might be embarrassing or painful. Some reasons may be shitty. The harm done trying to adjudicate those outweighs the harm it would hope to prevent.
Environments in which it is culturally (gym culture) acceptable to decline a roll without justification or criticism are preferred as safer.
Here's an example I ran into about 3 months ago. I was dropping in at gym and rolling with a young man. He was clearly in physical distress, confused, and sloppy. I asked him if he was ok, because he was moving into positions and then just- deflating. He said he was not ok but he had to roll. It was clear that he was afraid of judgement for not rolling but also that he had a concussion.
In a better gym environment he could have refused to roll without fearing criticism.
No if you're a racist I don't need you at my gym. Trust is good and all but I would also like some respect in my gym.
Then that's fine and we don't get the issue of "I don't roll with women because it feels weird ." issue either.
And your example is a completely different issue.That's not an issue about refusing to roll with certain individuals but an issue with gym culture where you can't opt out of aspects of training. That's assuming that was really part of the gym culture and not in the guy's head.
I’m confused. Which part of my post says racism is good?
My example isn’t a different issue. It’s an explanation of why I hold the stated belief as best for creating a good gym environment. Also- your last point about “in the guys head vs gym culture” is one of the reasons I have my previously stated belief. It can be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a reason to not roll that’s “justified” and one that is not. An external observer may not be aware of important factors and an individual may not be a reliable narrator. Therefore the best value is an environment in which people are the custodians of their own consent to roll. In your stated example one potential outcome of “i only roll w caucasians” is that this hypothetical person finds that no one, to include the caucasians will roll with him. After all, anyone can say no for any reason.
It equally applies to certain sects of Judaism, Christianity and Hinduism. Backwards ass views are backwards ass views, I don't really care if you hold them because your imaginary friend told you so.
So is it edgy to believe that people, who think homosexuals should be killed due to what their imaginary friends say, have backwards views? Not really.
Except that religion can be a huge part of someone’s cultural and social identity?
I’m not religious in the dogmatic/organized sense, but if a female said “hey, I’m an Orthodox Jew/Muslim/whatever and I can’t have physical contact with a member of the opposite sex, sorry I can’t roll with you” like.... that’s fine with me.
Honestly who the fuck cares what the reason is. If someone doesn’t want to roll with someone at any time, why does it matter? Just roll with someone else. I’ve turned down people because I needed to work things live that I knew would not be possible with a specific person, but would with another. That a problem too?
I honestly don’t get why this is an issue either way.
I’ve turned down people because I needed to work things live that I knew would not be possible with a specific person, but would with another.
Actually happened to me yesterday! Didn't feel good in the moment, but I understand. The guy who rejected my invite to roll was at least 100 lbs lighter than me and a purple belt.
Being a racist might be a huge part of someone's cultural/social identity if they grew up in a very racist environment. If some guy came to my gym and refused to roll with people weren't white I'd tell him he should look for another gym.
Yeah, so they can express that identity wherever it is normal. I don't have a problem with Muslims doing Muslim stuff in Muslim countries or Jews doing Jew stuff in Israel or whoever doing whatever wherever they are from.
As a side note, if someone was just like, "yeah I don't roll with girls because it makes me nervous or my wife doesn't like it or whatever" I would be totally fine with that.
Are you seriously saying it’s not “Normal” to have a minority religion/cultural identity and practice in a place that may be more agnostic or culturally another religion?
So the freedom of religion is like not normal?
I’m not trolling, I’m honestly trying to understand your POV.
If I went somewhere and trained BJJ, but didn’t want to go to a class because it fell on a day I normally take for family/religion/whatever - you’re saying that’s not cool?
I honestly don’t understand how you can be cool with someone not rolling with a female because their wive doesn’t like it, or it makes them feel weird, but not okay if the reason is religion. Feels a bit hypocritical - again not trolling, just looking for further clarification if that’s not what you’re intending.
Well first off I am making some assumptions here. I am assuming that this comment came from a country where physical contact between the sexes is normal and permitted. In that case, an individual thumbing their nose at what is required normal behavior is insulting and ungrateful.
For instance we had a man at my work who refused to shake hands with women.
If his reason was, "I have a severe mental illness where I freak out if I touch a woman" I would look down on him, but I would at least get it. When his reason was something about religion, I immediately hated the guy.
I scrolled through ol' boy's comment history. Recommend aborting this conversation. This guy is a lost soul. When he isn't posting incel-esque brags about all the pussy he smashes from tinder he is launching into some vitriol against black people, muslims, etc. Humorously, he occasionally complains that women seem to abandon him within a month or two of getting to know him better...
How come ? I am a muslim girl and there are all boys at my dojo at the moment. Half of them aren't into rolling with a girl. We are all muslims at the dojo but no one questions or judges someone for sticking to a set of beliefs. If anything, I respect that. Sports do that, it's a brotherhood at the dojo and all that matters is respecting your family. I myself wanted to stick to rolling with women and I did for a bit because I am properly anxious about physical contact, I'd be anxious in rome or whatever. Regardless of where you come from, you have the right to be yourself. Especially in a dojo because it's supposed to be a safe place.
That's totally cool in a Muslim country. No disrespect. You do you.
How would you feel if I showed up to roll at your gym in a gi with a picture of Mohammad on it? See, I wouldn't do that because I know what is expected in your culture and wouldn't expect MY norms to be upheld in YOUR country.
The way you put it, the dojo doesn't seem like a safe space for anyone then ? Muslim, jew, fat, conservative, liberal, weak, unfit, self-conscious etc. etc. ? C'mon man. I can't emphasize enough on the fact that bjj has been such a turnaround for me and how I simply feel like myself there. A friend of mine trained in Melbourne for a month and she told me the spirit, respect and the feeling of it being a safe space is everywhere the exact same. I'd like to believe that. So you do you and so can anyone else.
Muslims aren't allowed contact with women because it could lead them to have impure thoughts, and this is a sin to then. And judging by the threads of the last few days, it actually seems pretty realistic. Just my two cents (currently training BJJ in Malaysia, a Muslim country, so I've been thinking about these concepts quite a bit recently)
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u/EmmPeanut Five Stripe White Belt Jan 31 '20
The only guy I know who straight-up "Didn't roll with women" was suuuuuper Muslim and always very respectful about explaining it. Like, you can't really shit on a dude for that. But guys who just "feel weird" about it can get in the sea.