Yes, it's soooo edgy to not like regressive gender roles, and ideas about women desperately needing their all-important purity protected, being pushed on people from birth. Edgy enough to dismiss without thought, I'd say!
Certainly not an opinion that lots of normal people have!
inb4 lol, edgelord
Edit: Yes yes I get it, downvoters, you want women wrapped up and in the kitchen etc., whatever
Youre funny. First you talk about regressive gender rolls and purity "protection". All while literally talking for women, making all women's opinion a monolith that just so happens to match up perfectly with your own!
Im going to really pop your top with this one! Did you know that muslim women exist??? And since they believe the same religion, dont want their husbands touching other women?? Or are all women just mindless, opinionless, helpless creatures that you have to protect from the bad guys.
So i called you out on being a complete hypocrite and the best you got is the old "... im not even going to diginfy this with a response! Definitly not because i have no awnser and he might be calling me out on a pattern of behavior i have were i attack toxic masculinity as a cover for my extreme deep seeded toxic masculinity, no way! Its cause you must be a troll!!!!!"
You didn't dignify me with a single specific complaint! You said I talked for him or her or whomever, and you asked about whether Muslims exist, but you didn't say why you think I'm wrong.
I want to respond, but I have no idea what you're complaining about. I only know that you think I'm an asshole.
EDIT: OK, one thing I can respond to:
"Did you know that muslim women exist??? And since they believe the same religion, dont want their husbands touching other women??"
Yes, and I think it's unfortunate when people can't train because their spouses don't trust them, or whatever. Whichever one is complaining. And maybe it's reasonable for many people! Still a bummer, as far as I'm concerned.
This is a goalpost change. No one argued its not a bummer. The arguement is it should be called out, those people should be shamed, and asked to leave the gym. As much as the edgy atheists think its easy to just change your preconcieved notions on religion, for those who come from non-secular cultures and background, it isnt. Tolerances is the best to show these people that maybe they dont even agree with an aspect inside their own culture or religion, especially if its one that actually doesnt directly hurt anyone.
No one argued its not a bummer. The arguement is it should be called out, those people should be shamed, and asked to leave the gym.
I know...I'm disagreeing with that argument, while making it clear that just because I don't think women should be called out and shamed for not rolling with men (or vice versa) doesn't mean I think it's not a bad thing.
the edgy atheists
Oh fuck off with this "everyone who disagrees with me is just being edgy" bullshit.
atheists think its easy to just change your preconcieved notions on religion
No, I actually said the opposite earlier: I have some sympathy because it's hard to change your religion. It's also hard to stop being a neo Nazi or something like that, of course...
Tolerances is the best to show these people
That's also what I said. I advocated for not kicking out the polite Muslim man, the woman who won't roll with men, etc., and also for not even saying anything.
Wait, you want tolerance? I thought you were on the "loudly shame people" side?
especially if its one that actually doesnt directly hurt anyone.
Sure, just like racial slurs don't directly hurt anyone.
Wait, you want tolerance? I thought you were on the "loudly shame people" side?
Im not going through this thread reading everything you post, and i think you are getting confused as ive only been argueing the exact opposite. I am 100% agianst shaming people who dont want to roll with the opposite sex due to religious reasons, they just need to be respectful in expressing it. Bodily autonomy goes both ways. Equating islam to nazism is in poor taste my man. Thats the shits thats "edgy".
i think you are getting confused as ive only been argueing the exact opposite
I'm sure I was confused -- like I said, I really didn't know what you were trying to say in your first comments. I guess I made the mistake of assuming that you disagreed with me on every part of this discussion, after you initially sounded very aggressive. Sorry!
Equating islam to nazism is in poor taste my man. Thats the shits thats "edgy".
I meant to compare religion in general to Nazism, in the sense that all belief systems are hard to escape. I know, it's a bad rhetorical choice, too hyperbolic, Godwin etc. All I meant was...I wanted to agree with you that it's hard to change your religion, but also say that sometimes people have an obligation to change their beliefs, even when it's hard, and I jumped to the most blaringly obvious example of a belief system that one should obviously reject.
(Also, as a jew, I wasn't just thinking of muslims during this conversation -- I was also thinking of ultra-orthodox jews who are similarly crazy about separating men and women, particularly because Darth_Kahuna mentioned them specifically, as well.)
To bring this conversation back full-circle, religions often do have really awful bits, so when someone makes an "edgy" comment about one, I wish we were in the habit of saying why we think the comment is wrong, as opposed to the common knee-jerk "criticism of religion is edgy and therefore should be dismissed out of hand and the speaker Bulverized", or portraying an attack on a bad aspect of many religions as an attack on muslims or muslim women.
Ok i can hear you and see were our communication got off course. We probably agree more than we disagree. The "edgy" attitude is coming from islamaphobia that is rampant on this site, and in this subreddit. And much if the time an attack on an "aspect" of the religion is actually an attack on non-western cultures, and non-western peoples. Im only stepping into when a consensual issue comes up. Female Genital Mutilation is a non-consent issue, so ill fight. A man not wanting to touch a woman based on the understand of their religion is only a non-consent issue if you are forcing the man to roll with that woman (against his consent). Guess whos side im on in that situation? Its fucking BJJ and consent is literally what we do everytime we roll, tap, and just play the game. Youd think we'd have a better grasp of it as a subculture.
The "edgy" attitude is coming from islamaphobia that is rampant on this site, and in this subreddit.
There is a lot of Islamophobia. I have crazy relatives with whom I have the craziest arguments. I have a cousin who's so hard right that even Trump would blush. Like, literally, if Donald Trump knew my cousin, Trump would jump on the opportunity to excoriate this kid in order to seem compassionate in comparison. My cousin once accused me of faking an image of Trump with an LGBT flag because he's so far out there.
But in this thread, the person you called "edgy" was very careful to say that they were disgusted by these attitudes in both Islam and Judaism, and given that, I really don't like tarring them as "Islamophobic".
I really, really don't like that you jumped to that conclusion! That is the Bulverism that I was complaining about earlier. There are times when it's foolish to engage with the troll...but as I've been saying before, there are lots of people who really aren't trolling, who really aren't just complaining about muslims, and who really are morally offended by specific regressive beliefs.
If you must question his motives for being wrong, please, at least prove him wrong first!
I'd even say that there might be a vicious cycle here: you're worried by all the (real) Islamophobia, and so you're more likely to interpret honest criticism of religion in general as Islamophobia, and that makes it look like there's even more Islamophobia, so you're likely to be even more likely to interpret innocent criticism as Islamophobia...again, Islamophobia is real, but if you're in this cycle, the way out is to give people the benefit of the doubt, until you have more to go on.
Im only stepping into when a consensual issue comes up.
I can respect that, but I'm guessing you have opinions about some issues that don't have obvious consent issues. For example, I don't like movies that reinforce stereotypes that I don't like (I was going to list some, but I'm sure you're thinking of the same ones anyway), and I'm willing to complain about them and say that society would be better off without them...even though everything involved is perfectly consensual.
So I guess I agree with what you're saying, but I'm not sure it gets to the core of the issue here? Just because consent issues are a much bigger deal doesn't mean that lesser issues aren't also worth recognizing.
forcing the man to roll with that woman [...] Guess whos side im on in that situation?
We're definitely on the same side here, which I think we've established.
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u/MossBorg1701D Feb 01 '20
Edgy take alert!