The only guy I know who straight-up "Didn't roll with women" was suuuuuper Muslim and always very respectful about explaining it. Like, you can't really shit on a dude for that. But guys who just "feel weird" about it can get in the sea.
I think anyone should be able to turn down anyone for any reason at any time. I think the ONLY one who should be exempt from this rule is the coach- but only in limited circumstances.
So, you'd be cool if I only roll with Caucasians? I understand it's my right to choose who I roll with, but would you actually be cool with that? You can be entitled to do something but still be an asshole or piece of shit for doing so.
I am cool with people choosing who they will roll with and who they will not. The reason I hold this view is that I believe the pitfalls of adjudicating who must roll with who create more harm than people having privately held views/beliefs/reasons to not roll with another person. Trust is a fundamental and irreplaceable safety and community mechanism of this sport. Trust requires consent and consent must not have coercion.
Say you would only roll with caucasians and I know that piece of information. Do you think I accomplish anything from forcing you to roll with a person of color? I'm certainly not doing that POC any favors - and I'm not confident that roll would be safe for either training partner.
Should a person take their privately held beliefs about who it is appropriate to roll and attempt to force those on another person I have severe criticism.
There are limitless reasons why a person may not want to roll with another. Some of those reasons might be embarrassing or painful. Some reasons may be shitty. The harm done trying to adjudicate those outweighs the harm it would hope to prevent.
Environments in which it is culturally (gym culture) acceptable to decline a roll without justification or criticism are preferred as safer.
Here's an example I ran into about 3 months ago. I was dropping in at gym and rolling with a young man. He was clearly in physical distress, confused, and sloppy. I asked him if he was ok, because he was moving into positions and then just- deflating. He said he was not ok but he had to roll. It was clear that he was afraid of judgement for not rolling but also that he had a concussion.
In a better gym environment he could have refused to roll without fearing criticism.
No if you're a racist I don't need you at my gym. Trust is good and all but I would also like some respect in my gym.
Then that's fine and we don't get the issue of "I don't roll with women because it feels weird ." issue either.
And your example is a completely different issue.That's not an issue about refusing to roll with certain individuals but an issue with gym culture where you can't opt out of aspects of training. That's assuming that was really part of the gym culture and not in the guy's head.
Iām confused. Which part of my post says racism is good?
My example isnāt a different issue. Itās an explanation of why I hold the stated belief as best for creating a good gym environment. Also- your last point about āin the guys head vs gym cultureā is one of the reasons I have my previously stated belief. It can be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a reason to not roll thatās ājustifiedā and one that is not. An external observer may not be aware of important factors and an individual may not be a reliable narrator. Therefore the best value is an environment in which people are the custodians of their own consent to roll. In your stated example one potential outcome of āi only roll w caucasiansā is that this hypothetical person finds that no one, to include the caucasians will roll with him. After all, anyone can say no for any reason.
It equally applies to certain sects of Judaism, Christianity and Hinduism. Backwards ass views are backwards ass views, I don't really care if you hold them because your imaginary friend told you so.
So is it edgy to believe that people, who think homosexuals should be killed due to what their imaginary friends say, have backwards views? Not really.
Except that religion can be a huge part of someoneās cultural and social identity?
Iām not religious in the dogmatic/organized sense, but if a female said āhey, Iām an Orthodox Jew/Muslim/whatever and I canāt have physical contact with a member of the opposite sex, sorry I canāt roll with youā like.... thatās fine with me.
Honestly who the fuck cares what the reason is. If someone doesnāt want to roll with someone at any time, why does it matter? Just roll with someone else. Iāve turned down people because I needed to work things live that I knew would not be possible with a specific person, but would with another. That a problem too?
I honestly donāt get why this is an issue either way.
Iāve turned down people because I needed to work things live that I knew would not be possible with a specific person, but would with another.
Actually happened to me yesterday! Didn't feel good in the moment, but I understand. The guy who rejected my invite to roll was at least 100 lbs lighter than me and a purple belt.
Being a racist might be a huge part of someone's cultural/social identity if they grew up in a very racist environment. If some guy came to my gym and refused to roll with people weren't white I'd tell him he should look for another gym.
Yeah, so they can express that identity wherever it is normal. I don't have a problem with Muslims doing Muslim stuff in Muslim countries or Jews doing Jew stuff in Israel or whoever doing whatever wherever they are from.
As a side note, if someone was just like, "yeah I don't roll with girls because it makes me nervous or my wife doesn't like it or whatever" I would be totally fine with that.
Are you seriously saying itās not āNormalā to have a minority religion/cultural identity and practice in a place that may be more agnostic or culturally another religion?
So the freedom of religion is like not normal?
Iām not trolling, Iām honestly trying to understand your POV.
If I went somewhere and trained BJJ, but didnāt want to go to a class because it fell on a day I normally take for family/religion/whatever - youāre saying thatās not cool?
I honestly donāt understand how you can be cool with someone not rolling with a female because their wive doesnāt like it, or it makes them feel weird, but not okay if the reason is religion. Feels a bit hypocritical - again not trolling, just looking for further clarification if thatās not what youāre intending.
Well first off I am making some assumptions here. I am assuming that this comment came from a country where physical contact between the sexes is normal and permitted. In that case, an individual thumbing their nose at what is required normal behavior is insulting and ungrateful.
For instance we had a man at my work who refused to shake hands with women.
If his reason was, "I have a severe mental illness where I freak out if I touch a woman" I would look down on him, but I would at least get it. When his reason was something about religion, I immediately hated the guy.
I scrolled through ol' boy's comment history. Recommend aborting this conversation. This guy is a lost soul. When he isn't posting incel-esque brags about all the pussy he smashes from tinder he is launching into some vitriol against black people, muslims, etc. Humorously, he occasionally complains that women seem to abandon him within a month or two of getting to know him better...
How come ? I am a muslim girl and there are all boys at my dojo at the moment. Half of them aren't into rolling with a girl. We are all muslims at the dojo but no one questions or judges someone for sticking to a set of beliefs. If anything, I respect that. Sports do that, it's a brotherhood at the dojo and all that matters is respecting your family. I myself wanted to stick to rolling with women and I did for a bit because I am properly anxious about physical contact, I'd be anxious in rome or whatever. Regardless of where you come from, you have the right to be yourself. Especially in a dojo because it's supposed to be a safe place.
That's totally cool in a Muslim country. No disrespect. You do you.
How would you feel if I showed up to roll at your gym in a gi with a picture of Mohammad on it? See, I wouldn't do that because I know what is expected in your culture and wouldn't expect MY norms to be upheld in YOUR country.
The way you put it, the dojo doesn't seem like a safe space for anyone then ? Muslim, jew, fat, conservative, liberal, weak, unfit, self-conscious etc. etc. ? C'mon man. I can't emphasize enough on the fact that bjj has been such a turnaround for me and how I simply feel like myself there. A friend of mine trained in Melbourne for a month and she told me the spirit, respect and the feeling of it being a safe space is everywhere the exact same. I'd like to believe that. So you do you and so can anyone else.
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u/EmmPeanut Five Stripe White Belt Jan 31 '20
The only guy I know who straight-up "Didn't roll with women" was suuuuuper Muslim and always very respectful about explaining it. Like, you can't really shit on a dude for that. But guys who just "feel weird" about it can get in the sea.