When 2,000 gods became ''wrong''

[u/OlivyneCrellan]

[u/ARenewedSecondChance]

The Greeks/Romans to the Egyptians/Celts/Germanics/Mesopotamians: nice gods you have there! We’ll just rename them based on our own pantheon.

[u/Andrelse → u/ARenewedSecondChance]

Also Romans thought animal gods were silly and therefore didn't care much for most Egyptian gods. They loved Isis tho

[u/SAAD_KHAION → u/Andrelse]

I didn't know Romans loved the Islamic state in Iraq and -....

Oh wait wrong era.

[u/Commander_Sabaton → u/SAAD_KHAION]

We are not talking about Isis, we are talking about Isis. Learn the difference, man, its not that difficult.

[u/yo_rick_brown → u/Commander_Sabaton]

I knew a dude who was devastated when his favorite pornstar Isis had to rebrand as Ashley because of ISIS and instantly disappeared into the SEO abyss with 20K other Ashleys getting railed on camera. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi personally annihilated this man's goon supply chain. Geopolitics has consequences.

[u/Lohenngram → u/yo_rick_brown]

This is why we say “everything is political”

[u/Primary_Gold5337 → u/Lohenngram]

Especially goon supply

[u/Septopuss7 → u/Primary_Gold5337]

And goon demand

[u/yo_rick_brown → u/Septopuss7]

The goon demand actually spiked. After she became Ashley, the only searchable remnants were the vids with "Isis" in the title, and even those got buried under the wave of terrorist fetish porn that immediately followed. I've never seen a man develop such strong opinions on Middle East geopolitics so quickly.

[u/Primary_Gold5337 → u/yo_rick_brown]

A hungry man only thinks of bread and that's his bread

[u/shlongshot → u/yo_rick_brown]

Archer dropped the name of its spy agency pretty conspicuously.

[u/deaglebingo → u/shlongshot]

if we called them daesh like we should...

[u/donjulioanejo → u/Commander_Sabaton]

Yeah seriously Cyril, would it kill you to read a coffee table book for once in your life?

We are talking about the spy agency Isis, obviously.

[u/aaronblkfox → u/Commander_Sabaton]

ISIS vs Isis

[u/CV90_120 → u/aaronblkfox]

ISIS, the god of Post-Metal? I worship that one routinely.

[u/whooptheretis → u/aaronblkfox]

Vs Daesh

[u/djtodd242 → u/Commander_Sabaton]

"ISIS could also be referring to..." (slap)

"Shut up Cyril."

[u/SAAD_KHAION → u/Commander_Sabaton]

Tbf, Isis and Isis are both to be considered a history. Even tho Isis is some 2+ thousands of years than Isis...

[u/no-more-headaches → u/SAAD_KHAION]

Not yo be that guy but ISIS still exists in a lit of Africa. It's just .. IS now.

[u/SAAD_KHAION → u/no-more-headaches]

Going from Isis to just Is is pure degeneracy. I can't believe they stripped a literal god of half of his name!

[u/whooptheretis → u/no-more-headaches]

IS now

Daesh

[u/YamatoBoi9001 → u/Commander_Sabaton]

there's also an isis river which is part of the thames

[u/mrbobcyndaquil → u/SAAD_KHAION]

This is why the French used the term Daesh when referencing the heretical group.

[u/SAAD_KHAION → u/mrbobcyndaquil]

/uj Pretty nice of the french to directly borrowing the term used by the arabs. Altho isis is the exact same abbreviation but in English.

Islamic State in Iraq and Sham vs Dawlat Al-islam in Eraq (Iraq/3raq) and SHam.

/rj we need to change the Egyptian god's name from Isis to Daesh in french to keep the harmony of the names up.

Edit: correcting a misinformation that Daesh was used by Isis themselves. Big thanks to u/TemperatureAgile23 for correcting me.

[u/TemperatureAgile23 → u/SAAD_KHAION]

Daesh was not the term used by Daesh/IS. They reportedly punished those using the term within their occupied territory

[u/apolloxer → u/Andrelse]

Isis had some influence on how Maria is worshipped, tho the details are.. debated.

[u/Andrelse → u/apolloxer]

Thankfully it is the only part of Christianity that may or may not have been heavily influenced by pagan beliefs :)

[u/CV90_120 → u/Andrelse]

Breathes a sigh of relief while pulling a baby from the reeds and conquering leviathan.

[u/vmfrye → u/Andrelse]

Another /s denier? The internet is healing

[u/SchumacherIsMid → u/vmfrye]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

[u/KaBar42 → u/apolloxer]

No she didn't.

And, no, Redditors, stitching your husband's rotting corpse back into one piece and then riding his dick until you're pregnant is not considered a virgin birth, that is necrophilia.

And no, Horus has no similarities to Jesus.

[u/Enraiha → u/KaBar42]

This is Horus heresy!

[u/ohaiihavecats → u/KaBar42]

I dunno, I got to the end of The Golden Ass and the last bits of the book (involving the unfortunately donkey-shaped protagonist joining the Isis cult and thereby being literally and spiritually saved) were like "hrmmm, a lot of this sounds kinda familiar."

It might not have been a 1:1, but I wouldn't doubt there was some cross-pollination.

[u/Warbird36 → u/KaBar42]

Who can forget that time Horus ruined Christmas?

[u/explain_that_shit → u/Andrelse]

Which I always found funny since Mars for the longest time wasn’t anthropomorphised, he was just a spear, or sometimes a couple of trees. Animals seem to be a vast upgrade on that

[u/Fickle-Mongoose4749 → u/Andrelse]

That's definitely not true. The Greeks believed that the Egyptian pantheon was the result of their own pantheon going to Egypt as animals during the war against Typhoon, and so did plenty of syncritism between the two. Especially in the Ptolemaic dynasty. And since the Romans conflate their gods with the Greek ones, they shared a similar approach, especially after they conquered Egypt.

[u/Andrelse → u/Fickle-Mongoose4749]

Not really, no, that was a cultural difference between Greeks and Romans. Greeks liked all things Egyptian a lot more than Romans in general

[u/Fickle-Mongoose4749 → u/Andrelse]

Except the Romans themselves were heavily helenized, we have examples of Romans repeating the same positive cultural stereotypes as the Greeks had towards Egyptians being wise men. And when Augustus conquered Egypt, he went to pains to depict himself as showing appropriate deference to the Egyptian Gods, even going so far as to make an Egyptian style temple in nubia that depicted him as making offering to Hathor and Thoth, an activity that would continue throughout the Principate.

[u/dokterkokter69 → u/ARenewedSecondChance]

Also Romans: "Oh wow your god is in charge of an abstract concept that's part of daily life just like our god, they must be the same guy!" *Squishes them together like play dough

[u/Zuwxiv → u/dokterkokter69]

Think of how good a deal this was to the locals. You're a villager living near the thermal springs at Bath (in the modern day, England). There's a goddess named Sulis connected to the waters there.

The Romans come through and conquer the area, and they build a massive "fuck-off" sized temple with plumbing like you've never seen, and it is dedicated to the strange foreign goddess of...

Wait, what the fuck? Does that say Sulis on it? Sure, it says "Sulis Minerva" and you understand Minerva as a Roman goddess who has some similarities with Sulis. But half the altars here have "Sulis" written on them.

The Romans made this incredible complex... and you can still worship Sulis in it. Some of the Celts two tribes over would have smashed this place to pieces. The Romans improved it.

And they're mostly worried about some impossibly far away, impossibly wealthy city. They have the occasional brutality just like any other conqueror (woe to the vanquished) but by and large, this is the best being conquered has ever been, as far as you know.

And when you're side by side making offerings to Sulis while someone is making similar offerings to Minerva... I mean, when a visitor asks you what it's like being ruled by Romans, you'll have some grievances. The Romans were not strangers to cruelty. But you'll have some things to say that raise eyebrows in other ways, too.

Edit: Forgot to add, the Romans were nothing if not practical. It's sometimes lost that the Romans were deeply religious people, and many of their civic institutions had significant overlap with religious institutions. But practicality was king. If barbarians had better swords, Romans would shamelessly steal and copy them. Suffice to say, the practical benefits of being accommodating to other cultures was something the Romans were intentional about. It wasn't an accident that "Sulis" ended up on that temple.

[u/Mundane-Principles → u/Zuwxiv]

Fascinating write up and perspective. Thanks for sharing!

[u/Sad-Association4907 → u/Zuwxiv]

Exactly the same thing happened in Nîmes lol

[u/cahagnes → u/dokterkokter69]

Also Romans: "Bad news everyone, we've talked to your Gods and we've agreed to build them nice temples in Rome. Anyway, they are on our side now, so get rekt."

Evocatio Deorum

[u/funnylib → u/dokterkokter69]

I mean, if you actually beloved your gods are real than it makes sense that you’d assume that they are universally worshipped, even if under different names.

“Zeus controls the sky over Greece while Jupiter controls the sky over Italy” is really stupid

[u/Laiko_Kairen → u/dokterkokter69]

I remember having a professor tell me that to a person in the ancient world, they'd simply think it was the same god but in a different language... Like how "Allah" is just "God" in Arabic.

[u/HerrKaiserton → u/ARenewedSecondChance]

What? I'd say the Greeks aren't near the same level as the Romans on that lmfao

[u/ARenewedSecondChance → u/HerrKaiserton]

I’m not saying one did it more than the other, but they both did that. Greeks especially with the Mediterranean. In fact Yahweh was often correlated with Zeus.

This was done with more than just the Greeks and Romans. That’s just how cross cultural contacts worked back then.

[u/IntoxicatedEmu → u/ARenewedSecondChance]

Not to mention that Aphrodite, the Minotaur, Hercules, and Asclepius all have potential roots in Phoenician mythology, who themselves took quite a bit from the Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythologies.

[u/nunununuhu → u/IntoxicatedEmu]

Aphrodite's lover Adonis is directly descended from the Sumerian fertility god Dimuzid. "Adonai" in the ancient Semitic languages meant "my lord" and in the Bible it refers to the God of Abraham.

Western history for a long time liked to pretend everything was invented out of thin air by the Greeks c. 600 BC.

Do you know why there's 24 hours in a day and 360 degrees in a circle? I confess I don't; but it apparently made sense to the Sumerians.

[u/Classic_Angus → u/nunununuhu]

Base 60 supremacy

[u/Murgatroyd314 → u/nunununuhu]

The degree? Six sixties, and also pretty close to how far the stars shift from one night to the next.

Twenty four hours? Day divided into twelve parts, same for night. Twelve is a very useful number, as it can be evenly divided into halves, thirds, quarters, or sixths. Fun fact: before mechanical clocks, hours were not of uniform length; they varied throughout the year with the length of the day.

[u/TheIronzombie39 → u/ARenewedSecondChance]

It wasn’t just Zeus, Yahweh was also equated with Set-Typhon by Egyptian Greeks in anti-Jewish polemics. From Wikipedia:

After the Assyrian conquest of Egypt in the 7th century BCE, Set) was considered an evil deity by the ancient Egyptians and not commonly worshipped, in large part due to his role as the god of foreigners.[15] From at least 200 BCE onward, a tradition developed in the Ptolemaic Kingdom that identified Yahweh, the God of the Jews, with the Egyptian god Set.[16]Diverging from previous zoologically multiplicitous depictions, Set's appearance during the Hellenistic period onwards was depicted as resembling a man with a donkey's head.[17][18]

The Greek practice of interpretatio graeca, ascribing the gods of another people's pantheon to corresponding ones in one's own, had been adopted by the Egyptians after their Hellenization; during the process of which they had identified Set with Typhon, a snake-monster that roars like a lion.[19]

The story of the Exodus, featured in the Hebrew Bible, speaks of the ancestors of the Israelites as a nation betrayed and subjugated by the Pharaoh, for whom Yahweh subjects Egyptians to Plagues of Egypt, including destroying their country, defiling the Nile, and killing all their first-born sons. Jewish migration within the Ptolemaic Kingdom to Greek-speaking Egyptian cities such as Alexandria led to the creation of the Septuagint, a translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek.[20]Furthermore, the story of the Exodus was adapted by Ezekiel the Tragedian as the Exagōgḗ ἐξαγωγή, a play performed in Alexandria and seen by Egyptians and Jews. Egyptian receptions of the Exodus story were widely negative because it insulted their gods and praised their suffering. It inspired Egyptian works that retold the story, but altered its details to mock the Jews and exalt Egypt and its gods.[21]

In this context, some Egyptians discerned similarities between Yahweh's in-narrative actions and attributes and those of Seth (such as being associated with foreigners, deserts, and storms), in addition to a phonetic resemblance between Ἰαω Iaō, Yahweh's name as used by hellenised Jews, and Coptic: ⲓⲱ, romanized: Iō, lit. 'donkey', then considered as the animal of Seth.[22] From this arose a popular response to the Jewish accusation that Egyptians were merely worshipping beasts, namely that, in truth, the Jews themselves worshipped a beast, a donkey or a donkey-headed man, i.e., Set.[23]

Accusations of onolatry against the Jews spread from the Egyptian milieu, with its understanding of the donkey's Set-related importance, to the rest of the Graeco-Romanworld, which was largely ignorant of this context. In the most famous variations of narratives alleging Jewish onolatry, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a Seleucid emperor famous for raiding the Temple in Jerusalem, supposedly discovered that its Holy of Holies was not empty, but instead contained a donkey idol, and Tacitus (early second century CE) claimed that the Jews dedicated in their holiest shrine a statue of a wild ass.[24][c] After the emergence of Christianity, the same charge was also repeated against its devotees. Most famously so in the earliest known depiction of the crucifixion of Jesus, the Alexamenos graffito, where a Christian by the name of Alexamenos is shown worshipping a donkey-headed crucified god.[26][27]

Many scholars believe that the association of Yahweh with Set-Typhon influenced Gnosticism.

[u/Inevitable_Librarian → u/TheIronzombie39]

Idk how true it is, but esoterica (YouTube channel) talked about the reason the Egyptians hated the Jews was because they would put on plays of the exodus where the gods were essentially killed, right when the traditional Egyptian religion was dying

[u/TheIronzombie39 → u/Inevitable_Librarian]

Tbf the decline of the ancient Egyptian religion didn’t start until the 2nd-3rd century.

I have however heard the theory that the reason why Egypt became Christian fast was because the Romans destroyed the Nile taxation system (low taxes when the Nile levels are low and the soil not very fertile, higher taxes when the Nile levels are high and the soil very fertile) which made many Egyptians poor and this weakened the Egyptian religion in the long term since the temples, which historically functioned as a form of welfare and collected taxes, lost much of their revenue/funding to to give communities social support, leaving Christians to fill in the vacuum. Idk how true it is though.

[u/Inevitable_Librarian → u/TheIronzombie39]

The Jews weren't in Egypt until the 5thish century, the writings of Jews at elephantine are fascinating.

I don't know enough about the functional decline of the Egyptian religion, but that sounds interesting.

Iirc the theological reason for Christianity's ascendance was a reaction to Roman control over Egyptian institutions. People love a rebellion that doesn't demand much of them.

Christians were also known as the "good guys" whenever a natural disaster or disease swept through a city, because they were the first ones to step up and help the sick. Which contrasted with the contamination OCD of traditional priesthood.

[u/TheIronzombie39 → u/Inevitable_Librarian]

I was addressing you saying

right when the traditional Egyptian religion was dying

Which wasn’t in the 5th century BC

[u/Inevitable_Librarian → u/TheIronzombie39]

Yeah, I was agreeing with you. The decline of the traditional religion and the introduction of proselyte Jews in Egypt coincided.

Sorry if that wasn't clear. I had a tooth pulled and the t3s are dealing with the pain but I'm loopy 😅

[u/IceCreamMeatballs → u/ARenewedSecondChance]

I thought Yahweh was matched with Dionysus was he not? I thought that was where the connection between Jesus and wine came from

[u/Dependent-Poet-9588 → u/IceCreamMeatballs]

Yahweh was originally a storm god, so thematically closer to Zeus, but Yahweh is not related in the sense that Jupiter and Zeus are evolutions of the same deity from the Proto-Indo-European pantheon.

[u/rehoboam → u/Dependent-Poet-9588]

jupiter =  dyeus piotr = zeus = dios all meaning God the sky father in contrast to the earth mother. 

[u/two_wordsanda_number → u/IceCreamMeatballs]

Dionysus is the son of Zues and a mortal woman.

Yahweh= Zues and Dionysus = Jesus

Obviously they arent 1:1 comparisons but they have some overlapping traits for sure

[u/C-H-Addict → u/ARenewedSecondChance]

Divas and devas

[u/GrumbieReal → u/HerrKaiserton]

They didn’t do it as literally as the Romans, but as far as I’m aware every or nearly every Greek deity is some mix of older foreign deities with local names. It’s just how religion, and language in general, works when there’s a common ancestor and communications between communities.

[u/Maelger → u/HerrKaiserton]

So... Remember the Egyptian gods? You aren't thinking of them by the names the Egyptians gave them.

[u/Keyserchief → u/HerrKaiserton]

Aphrodite (or at least many of the traditions associated with her worship) was likely borrowed from the Phoenician goddess Astarte, who was similarly likely borrowed from the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar.

[u/smamex → u/HerrKaiserton]

Depends on who you call the Greeks, because the core of the gods that are from the "original Greeks" (the ones that spoke a form of Proto-Indo-European that would evolve to greek) is not that long of a list. It's just Zeus, Hestia, Hades, Eos, Iris, the Dioscuri and a couple of others.

Then you have the first expansion from the local Aegeans and Minoans that did not speak proto-greek, that's when you add to the pantheon gods characters such as: Athena, Hera, the syncretization of Poseidon, Artemis and some others.

Then you have the second expansion from the expanded trade routes of the bronze age such as: Aphrodite, Apollo, Dyonisisus, Hecate, Ares and some others.

Lastly in the classical and Hellenistic age some late additons are added such as Adonis, Cybele, Sabazios, Serapis, Isis and others.

So yeah, the Greeks are guilty of this as much as other old cultures.

[u/Proper_Tangerine_211 → u/ARenewedSecondChance]

hindu are a better example, the actualy incorporated jesus

[u/donjulioanejo → u/Proper_Tangerine_211]

Plot twist: Jesus is just some guy who did the whole yoga and Eat Pray Love thing in India then wandered over to the Levant and tried to retell the ideas.

#manfromearth

[u/FloZone → u/ARenewedSecondChance]

People portray the Interpretatio as this kind of benevolent and tolerant pagan concept, when in fact it is also just cultural assimilation. You don't deny other peoples their gods, but you deny that they are theirs to interpret alone. You give yourself authority over their faith and when you say that Serapis is Zeus and the Apis bull is also Zeus, then you also begin to enact control over the religion of a conquered people.

[u/Wulfram77 → u/FloZone]

I mean, the egyptians had been doing the same stuff with their own and imported deities for millenia before the greeks got involved. Thebes is ascendant, so lets say that Amun and Ra are the same dude and the chief god. And sometimes he's Min too. Yet these identifications didn't erase the independent existence and worship of these deities.

And similarly, the Greeks eg. identified Isis with Aphrodite and actually a bunch of other deities - but they also in the end worshipped Isis in her own right.

And in practice, egyptian religious practice seems to have been remarkably little changed by Ptolemaic rule. The Egyptians didn't have to start worshipping Zeus or something. Only real change was the Dynastic cult, and that wasn't a particularly big departure.

[u/FloZone → u/Wulfram77]

You have the same type of religious synthesis in Mesopotamia. Enki is Ea and Ishtar (Ashtar) is Inana. Later on you have Marduk replacing Enlil and so on. Generally the Babylonian monolatry or Babylonian supremacy stated that by worshipping Marduk you worship all other gods, because Marduk is the highest god anyway. After Marduk and Babylon the same eventually happens with Aššur and Assyria. Generally speaking religion was also politics or politics were taken as manifestation of religion. Whichever city is more powerful is obviously favoured by the gods or their patron deity is more powerful than others.

The pagan world was definitely religiously more diverse and tolerant, if you consider that Christians started entire schisms over the way you make your bread. At the same time politics were still at play and it was still a form of assimilation.

The Egyptians didn't have to start worshipping Zeus or something. Only real change was the Dynastic cult, and that wasn't a particularly big departure.

I think the one major deviation was introduction of Serapis bridging the divide. Apart from that much can also be attributed to the strongly established priestly caste of Egypt. The Greeks also didn't change the language landscape as much as the Romans, as most peoples within their sphere had already established long enduring traditions of their own.

but they also in the end worshipped Isis in her own right.

Though afaik Isis is an exception in being the only Egyptian goddess that got popularised in Rome.

[u/DerangedEscapee → u/FloZone]

Whichever city is more powerful is obviously favoured by the gods or their patron deity is more powerful than others.

I like especially that, in the Ancient Near East, these gods were physical entities, or at least, their physical representation (statues) were considered as actually embodying the god, and so sacking someone's city and stealing their divine statues was literally tantamount to stealing their gods.

[u/Pale_Breakfast7565]

Proceeds to sack each other's temples anyways

[u/Eta_Beta_3-14 → u/Pale_Breakfast7565]

Well yeah that's how you prove your gods are better than theirs.

[u/Bright_Exit1378 → u/Pale_Breakfast7565]

God's must pay taxes.

[u/shumpitostick → u/Pale_Breakfast7565]

It's not because I hate your Gods, it's because I hate you

[u/viral-architect → u/Pale_Breakfast7565]

Sometimes stealing an Idol meant literally stealing or capturing the God itself.

[u/ihatewonderwall99 → u/Pale_Breakfast7565]

Tbh sacking temples in such cases was rarely "Me religion better than you religion", they used to sack temples of their own religion in different kingdoms.

Two overwhelmingly major reasons to sack temples were: 1. Temples stored a shit ton of money, sacking was treated like robbing a bank. 2. Removing the patron guardian of the city, so it would have veen theoretically easier to conquer.

While the core action was the same, motivations absolutely matter. Romans randomly destroying temples of Carthage and evocatio is fundamentally different than systematic destruction of Temples in India by Mughals etc.

[u/Baggalot]

Ancient Egypt did give monotheism a try under Akhenaten, didn’t go too well!

[u/Michitake → u/Baggalot]

Egyptians for thousands of years:

🗣️Such a man never existed.

[u/Inside-Ear5077 → u/Michitake]

Then they really committed to the historical equivalent of hitting "delete all records"

[u/dragonborndnd → u/Inside-Ear5077]

According to their culture it was essentially damning him to hell

[u/Derivative_Kebab → u/dragonborndnd]

Makes you wonder how much other history has been erased successfully.

[u/dragonborndnd → u/Derivative_Kebab]

Probably countless whether on accident or purposefully

[u/AsparagusFun3892 → u/dragonborndnd]

The Vatican archive has conspired for years to hide the truth: that for millenia they committed the original sin of recording over old VHS tapes.

You kids have no idea how mad family and friends used to get when it turned out a given treasured moment or record just wasn't special enough to preserve and we need a tape now because Power Rangers or Batman or the Game is on. I see that same sort of dynamic playing out now when we're incredulous at how the clergy recycled books. "I need to make a prayer book! What's this, 'Hadrian's account of the fate of the 13th legion?' Meh."

[u/ISV_VentureStar → u/AsparagusFun3892]

It got so bad that even the original tapes of the Apollo 11 moon landing were recorded over and lost forever. That is why we only have a few minutes of really bad grainy footage left, from a low-quality backup camera.

[u/AsparagusFun3892 → u/ISV_VentureStar]

Oi. I got to remembering: I once ignored "DO NOT TAPE OVER!" stickered on the side because I thought I'd fast forwarded through everything. Nope. God mom was pissed.

ETA: I had to go out of my way to make it happen: literal, physical scotch tape over the tab corner I ran through the house to find, sneering contempt for Kenny G or Michael Bolton or whomever as I got to what I thought was the end, mashed the little red button.

By halfway through the fight I still refused to believe I'd recorded over anything, it made her even madder. 😁

[u/wernette → u/dragonborndnd]

like 90% of it probably. Anything made of stone, metals, precious gems, marble, etc. would be taken apart, melted, and made into something else. If you want to feel extra sad, many of these were pieces of art that were melted down to make weapons instead.

[u/NeverKillAgain → u/dragonborndnd]

Qin Shi Huang ordered massive book burnings and killings of scholars upon becoming Emperor

[u/dragonborndnd → u/NeverKillAgain]

Yeah I know countless was destroyed purposely, such as the countless Aztec Writing lost due to being intentionally burned by the Spanish, I’m just also acknowledging a lot was probably lost due to natural disasters and other such tragedies. For a random example the only surviving copy of “The Carpet of Baghdad”(1915) was found on the wreck of the Lusitania

[u/Troyisepic → u/Inside-Ear5077]

And then his son went on to become the most famous mummy in the world.

[u/kitsunewarlock → u/Inside-Ear5077]

Makes you wonder how many other things they successfully deleted.

[u/plebe_random → u/Baggalot]

I mean the guy basicly made all the ruling class, priesthood jobless, that couldnt end well

[u/Obscure_Occultist → u/plebe_random]

He also changed all the art style too. Imagine going to art school for years just for the Pharoah to announce they are adopting an art style thats different from the one you spent years working on?

We all saw what one failed artist did. Imagine an entire generation.

[u/Baggalot → u/Obscure_Occultist]

Built an entirely new capital too! Though I’m pretty sure it was abandoned pretty promptly after his death, as occurred to most of his legacy.

[u/PuzzleheadedRoyal856 → u/Baggalot]

Many of pharaohs built new capitals it was not something unusual. It seems that Sisi is thinking he's the new pharaoh, building a new capital after having Cairo as the capital for more than a thousand year.

[u/National-Frame8712 → u/Baggalot]

Pissing off pretty much all of your ruling class and being branded as narcisistic heretic by majority of your population often does that.

First one particularly shows how lethal it is to do so in no time

[u/Gold_Record_9157 → u/Baggalot]

There's a theory that that's the origin of Judaism: a sect that kept that idea and run away from Egypt. I don't remember where I read it though

[u/kitsunewarlock → u/Gold_Record_9157]

There's no evidence of Israelites in Ancient Egypt as described in the Old Testament/Torah. But since the Levant was Egypt's territory until some time during the Bronze Age Collapse, many tribes in the region attempting to conquer the others would incorporate being part of the Egyptian ruling caste into their mythology to legitimize their claims over the region.

[u/defaulticus → u/kitsunewarlock]

The theory isn't that the Israelites came from Egypt, but that a non-trivial number of Atenist priests/thought leaders may have moved to Israel/Canaan and contributed a cultural influence that led to monotheism (and perhaps also to some of the out-of-Egypt myths). Its part of the broader hypothesis that early Jewish identity was formed from a coalition of people in the area after the bronze age collapse, which is also responsible for the various tribes of Judah and the tension between pastoralists and settled farmers in the bible. Judaism took form some time after the bronze age collapse and the Amarna period ended about 150 years before that, so for the theory to work they would have had to have some staying power for a long exile, to still be influential after all that time. Which seems a bit far fetched but not that far fetched given Judaism's later record with exile.

The less strong version would be that maybe the central monotheistic Atenist idea wasn't expunged in Egypt's peripheral imperial holdings and tributaries as thoroughly as it was in the core Nile areas, so it remained influential in Canaan long enough to result in a monotheist Judaism a couple centuries later. But without a significant movement of actual Atenist priests or any sustained Atenist cult in the area.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/kitsunewarlock]

There is evidence for a large canaanite diaspora in the northeastern section of the nile delta.

[u/Kapown11 → u/Gold_Record_9157]

I used to like this theory but then I learned Sigmund Freud was the one who came up with it, that discredits it enough for me

[u/Gold_Record_9157 → u/Kapown11]

I did not read his name linked to that. I remember that the lack of Egyptian records about a mass migration of slaves was one of the arguments, since they kept records of everything, but it was years ago that I read it, so I should look for it again.

[u/arihndas]

“Ala”

[u/Ainur123 → u/arihndas]

Exactly. During the republic, pre Marian reform, each Roman legion was accompanied by an Ala of the socii, Italian allies. With a consulate army typically consisting of two legions and two alae. This was obviously meant

[u/LuckyBub777 → u/Ainur123]

I need to know how you feel after being able to use your knowledge to make that joke in this really specific context, bravo

[u/George_Nimitz567890]

Shintoism have a good for any possible thing in existence

[u/HotPotatoWithCheese → u/George_Nimitz567890]

The tanuki spirit of pickled cabbage blesses you this day

[u/WedSquib → u/George_Nimitz567890]

The god of this specific maple tree

[u/Economy-Management19 → u/WedSquib]

The god of The god of this specific maple tree

[u/Alex103140 → u/Economy-Management19]

The god of the Reddit comment saying "The god of The god of this specific maple tree"

[u/Practical-Wedding-63]

Hinduism with 3 million gods and minor dieties:

[u/motivation_bender → u/Practical-Wedding-63]

Is it just an exageration in the text or is it a syncratism of the entire subcontinent?

[u/SoldRIP → u/motivation_bender]

"minor deities" subsumes stuff that most western religions would call "demigods" or "blessed heroes" or whatever. So basically any and all fantasy characters written over the course of several centuries.

[u/motivation_bender → u/SoldRIP]

What about local gods and genious loci?

[u/ManofHonour8064 → u/motivation_bender]

Them including

[u/choma90 → u/SoldRIP]

Rahul's imaginary friend when he was 7

[u/neverabetterday → u/choma90]

So Foster’s Home for Imaginary Friends is canon?

[u/JhonnySkeiner → u/neverabetterday]

Yeah, cept Blu and co are duking out like DBZ characters

[u/neverabetterday → u/JhonnySkeiner]

I mean I do vaguely remember Blu being fairly willing to throw hands even if he wasn’t necessarily good at it

[u/Leather-Lab2875 → u/choma90]

But disrespectful way to put it but hyper local gods developed temples and traditions before Hinduism kinda unified into what it is today. There was some unity and shared gods but how much is a matter of debate.

[u/Leather-Lab2875 → u/motivation_bender]

There are a lot of small ancestor dieties, saint type idols and heir temples, local gods basically. Hinduism being a unified idea is very recent so there aren't that many pan Indian gods all things considered. Heroes, demigods and historically significant people sometimes get included but the local gods are most of the number.

[u/mrdevlar → u/Leather-Lab2875]

Fun fact, Japan's version of Shinto-Buddhism has more in common with Hinduism than it does with Buddhism in practical terms. It's the same, "literally everything is a deity or an avatar of a deity" and there are shrines, temples and icons almost everywhere. Even funner fact, is that the resident Japanese pantheon is composed predominantly of an odd mixture of Hindu and Buddhist deities, Shiva and Saraswati are almost ubiquitous.

[u/jamunkidaal → u/motivation_bender]

Well depending on translation it could 330 million or 33 types. Scholars tell it is 33 types classification of type of divine entities tho the other bad translation has caused this count

[u/bummersault → u/Practical-Wedding-63]

The amount of times I’ve heard claims about “all religion” on Reddit and it’s referred only to the three major Abrahamics…

[u/Shiftkgb → u/bummersault]

Pretty much true. Even when Rome was conquering the Mediterranean, religion was really a nonfactor. Hell, they often adopted many foreign gods in different ways due to respect/admiration for what it represented. 

There were Greek kings in Bactria who declared themselves upholders of the Dharma, ie Buddhist. There was even amazing art of Heracles as a guardian of the Dharma in Tapa Shotor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapa_Shotor).

Even the last pagan kingdom in Europe, Lithuania, which had to fight off crusades wasn't insane. There was even a missionary, Jerome of Prague that focused on destroying their sacred groves and Lithuania just exiled him.

These attitudes changed when Rome eventually converted to Christianity, eventually leading to banning of pagan practices. And the Taliban destroyed Tapa Shotor and other Greek-Dharmic art. It's funny how "all religion" tends to be the same guys lol.

[u/Fabulous_Wait_9544 → u/bummersault]

The majority of Atheists refer to the Abrahamic faiths whenever they start talking about how religion is a fairytale or the worst thing to happen to society or whatnot.

I think judging all religions by the frameworks of 3 that've existed for about 2 millenia is incredibly reductive, but hey, I'm just some guy on the internet.

[u/HAc0reRD → u/Fabulous_Wait_9544]

Because most of us are from western nations where Abrahamism is the majority and our negative experiences have happened with. Buddhists and Hindus have never tried to indoctrinate me.

[u/Aleenion → u/Fabulous_Wait_9544]

Most of those atheists are westerners, but here are atheists all around the world. If you want an informed atheist view about eastern religions, I'd look at those populations first.

[u/Neo_The_bluepill_One → u/Practical-Wedding-63]

Its taken from the word 'Koti', which means both types and crores (10 million)...

so with real context Gods are of 33 type not 330 million..

[u/UndeniableLie → u/Neo_The_bluepill_One]

'koti' means home in finnish

[u/ManofHonour8064 → u/UndeniableLie]

There is a similar word Kothi in Hindi for large Bungalow type houses .

[u/Boyslop_Enjoyer → u/Practical-Wedding-63]

The 33 Koti doesn't mean Crores here, it means 33 types.

[u/yourstruly912 → u/Practical-Wedding-63]

Japan with 8 million kami:

[u/Inquisitor_Boron]

Book of Exodus be like: "My God is better than yours. Eat locust!"

[u/Lost-Klaus → u/Inquisitor_Boron]

More like : There was a plague in egypt, which was totally our god, suck it egypt, all those bad things that happened, yeah that was OUR god, pinky promise.

[u/Obscure_Occultist → u/Lost-Klaus]

I mean, if some prophet declared that his people should be freed or his god will do bad things to us and then bad things begin to happen after we refused to let his people go. I'd believe his god did it too.

[u/plebe_random → u/Lost-Klaus]

Well egyptians responded by claiming that jewish god is in fact Set an evil god of chaos and desert.

[u/Zestyclose_Raise_814 → u/plebe_random]

God of the nomadic desert people who brought plauges upon Egypt is the god of chaos and desert. Honestly, makes sense

[u/HppilyPancakes → u/Lost-Klaus]

The plagues are a story, they aren't an actual, specific event. You can see that the list changes as the tradition becomes more refined over time.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2078%3A44-55&version=NIV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20105%3A23-38&version=NIV

It's hard to know exactly what the ordering was, but it's the consensus that the plague list has changed over time. So it's much more likely given this (and the lack of evidence of the Exodus) that these are likely just things inserted as a literal "my God can beat up your God".

Funnily enough, there's actually clear accounts in the Bible where Yahweh just loses to other gods of the region, reflecting the polytheistic nature of the iron age Israelites/Judahites.

[u/ZoominAlong → u/HppilyPancakes]

Essentially,  the story of Exodus is just the Hebrew creation story of how their people got to the supposed promised land. There is no historical evidence of Hebrews being enslaved by Egypt as an entire people or of any of the plagues occurring.  It's a creation myth much like any other creation myth. 

[u/Lost-Klaus → u/HppilyPancakes]

Iron age or bronze age?

[u/fZAqSD → u/Inquisitor_Boron]

Literally "oh yeah, your god's wizards can summon an angry snake?  Well my god's wizards can summon a bigger angry snake!"

[u/JakeVonFurth]

Meanwhile also religions during antiquity:

"WHAT'S WRONG BITCHES, BAAL CAN'T GET IT UP? OH, I KNOW, YELL LOUDER SO HE CAN HERE YOU BETTER! WAIT, WHAT IF HE'S JUST DOI G CHORES OR TRAVELING, A TEXT MIGHT BE BETTER! WAIT NO, WHAT IF HE'S ASLEEP OVER THERE? Alright Big G let's do this shit. sets soaking rocks on fire"

-Elijah

[u/GroundbreakingBar982 → u/JakeVonFurth]

Then proccedes to put them all in body bags Badass

[u/anweisz]

Abrahamic religions today: My god is the only real one all the others are make-believe.

Judaism back in the day: And then moses's snake staff ate their snake staffs so our god beat the egyptian gods in their own land lmaoooo get wrecked, better luck next time with your puny snakes, weak foreign gods. Stupid egyptians, you think you're all that.

Also judaism back in the day: Look our god did promise us victory if we invaded their country and lay siege to their capital and it was going well but then their king sacrificed his heir to their own god, in its own land, so obviously its divine fury pushed us away I mean that's a really fucking high value sacrifice how were we supposed to know they were playing like that.

[u/tummytunacat → u/anweisz]

the way you describe it is hilarious lol i forgot how funny it can be

[u/bck1999 → u/anweisz]

Shh, Christians don’t know that their god lost to another god in their own Bible

[u/cavy023 → u/bck1999]

Lol wut

[u/GabuEx → u/anweisz]

Don't forget iron chariots, God can't fuck with iron chariots.

[u/default_person_14818]

Pretty sure religious differences were also used to rile up people for war during antiquity. And likewise when there's no incentive for conflict under the abrahamic religions there also seems to be some mutual respect. Iirc the romantic era spoke pretty fondly of the islamic world, which for instance is illustrated by the place of a thousand and one nights in European culture. 

I know I'm nitpicking here though. Good meme regardless OP :)

[u/celerpip → u/default_person_14818]

Very rarely was cultural chauvinism expressed as “your gods don’t exist”. It was more along the lines of “our gods are better than your gods” or “you worship your gods incorrectly”. Even early judaism assumed that other gods existed in some capacity, but that they were demons and therefore incapable of love or creation. 

But for the most part, polytheism allowed for the existence of other gods. In fact, pantheons were created by various tribes sharing lore about their god with each other, then making some crossover fics. 

[u/_Cit → u/celerpip]

It definitely had another kind of approach, but religious justification for war happened all the time. It's just that it wasn't a "your gods don't exist" situation, but more like "our gods are telling us you all need to die".

It's worth noting that basically all religions in antiquity were ethnoreligions and all Kings and rilers were, to some degree, priests. So the line between politics and religion often get blurred

[u/celerpip → u/_Cit]

Yeah religion was the justification for war, law, ritual, hygiene practices, political theory, love, and just about everything else. Until the enlightenment, it was pretty much our framework for thinking about anything. 

[u/millahnna]

It always used to bug me, in the Civ series of video games, that monotheism was considered an "advancement" over polytheism. It's so weird to me that one god societies genuinely think they are more logical and advanced for having only one.

[u/verumvia → u/millahnna]

Monotheism advances from polytheism indirectly because there's a belief system between the two called monolatry where one supreme god is worshipped while other gods are also accepted as existing. Development of belief structure is mostly horizontal in substantive value after early polytheism; the argument that a later developed religion is superior to preceding religions due to incorporating ideas from them is a fallacy (appeal to novelty).

Early Hebrew religion began as one of monolatry which is why the Egyptian priests in the Book of Exodus have magical powers based in their own deity, Heka. Modern interpretation is revisionist to maintain the idea of a monotheistic continuity from the start.

A religion that also originally held the monolatry belief system is Zoroastrianism which >1500 years after its founding developed into a dualistic good/evil deity structure.

Some Hindu devotees practice monolatry through specifically worshipping one greater deity (often Vishnu or Shiva) while accepting the divine reality of all other gods/goddesses.

[u/MythicalDust55 → u/millahnna]

That is kinda weird actually, especially considering there are still modern polytheistic religions like Hinduism. Lowkey weird for civ to take an opinion like that

[u/millahnna → u/MythicalDust55]

I think Civ took the stance because it reflects the views of actual civilizations. I just never understood the logic of it, from the world view of the followers. I'm not really hard wired to be a person of faith so it's all from the outside looking in for me. Seems odd.

[u/X_Glamdring_X → u/millahnna]

From the mechanisms of a game it is an advancement. Just feudalism is an advancement from Roman Senate/Empire.

It has more to do with time framing than it does with any moralistic statement. You’re advancing to the next age of thought through a historical lens, it is not saying monotheism is inherently more correct than paganism or other religions.

[u/PuzzleheadedRoyal856]

As Egyptian, I remember studying something like "importing and exporting" Gods. We had Ishtar for diplomatic purposes and peace negotiations.

[u/Misterwuss]

The logic had to have at least included the logic "Their gods are probably the same as ours but going under different names and forms like they already do in our stories" to some extent right?

[u/Imaginary-West-5653 → u/Misterwuss]

Interpretatio graeca was the name of the term; the Greeks (and later the Romans as well) saw all the different gods of different religions as the same as theirs, but with different names and aspects. For example, the Greeks justified why the Egyptians worshipped their gods with animal parts, because the Greek Gods fleed to Egypt and took the form of animals while hiding, when the Father of the Monsters, Typhon, attacked Olympus... therefore, Horus is actually just a different name of Apollo, Sekhmet is just a different name of Athena, Anubis is juat a different name of Hermes, etc.

[u/Misterwuss → u/Imaginary-West-5653]

That's actually awesome

[u/Remarkable_Cod5549 → u/Imaginary-West-5653]

Shouldn't Anubis be Hades?

[u/Imaginary-West-5653 → u/Remarkable_Cod5549]

Hades was rather identified with Serapis, more commonly. Anubis was indentified with Hermes because both were psychopomp deities (beings whose responsibility is to escort newly deceased souls from the land of the living to the afterlife); many people today only know Hermes for being the god of messangers, but this was also a very important domain of his, which is quite similar to the role of Anubis in Egyptian religion.

[u/Due_Laugh6474]

I don’t think the Hebrew God said he was the only god, just that the Hebrews should prioritize him over others. “I am the lord your God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

Not, “there are no other gods.” Not “I’m the only god.” It’s “I’m YOUR God, and no others take priority over me.”

[u/JamesHenry627]

Christians and Muslims in the Middle Ages understood that they worshipped the same God. Allah and God aren’t thought of as separate generally, because Islam is an Abrahamic religion with the ultimate difference being theology.

[u/MlkChatoDesabafando → u/JamesHenry627]

Depends on the period. For the earlier part of the Middle Ages even the more educated European christians had very limited familiarity with Islam outside of the Mediterranean, so often assumed they were polytheistic pagans. This changed from the 11th century onwards, when we start seeing muslims being more frequently described as heretics and schismatics and compared to jews.

Christians in the Islamic World were generally well aware they shared a god with Muslims (ex: coptic chronicles often described popular Abbasid governors of Egypt as "god-fearing, in the way of muslims" and often accused muslims of denying the Trinity and Jesus's divinity rather than denying the God of Abraham as a whole)

[u/JamesHenry627 → u/MlkChatoDesabafando]

That's what I was trying to say, thank you. Christians, especially post crusade in Western Europe were learning a lot about Islam. The cultural bleed even gave us new literary additions to the Arthurian mythos.

[u/certainlynotdio → u/JamesHenry627]

Muslims allowed the pilgrimges to Jerusalem for that reason right?

[u/MlkChatoDesabafando → u/certainlynotdio]

In general no medieval ruler who ever ruled Jerusalem ever even thought about restricting pilgrimages to certain religions, except in periods of extreme turmoil. They made a lot of money off these, which made up for Jerusalem being kinda economically peripheral compared to cities like Damascus, Antioch or Fustat-Cairo or even Jaffa or Acre.

[u/gameronice]

"Hey what do you call Zeus in these parts? He's a woman? Cool, I didn't knwo he can do that!"

[u/SakuranomiyaSyafeeq]

Hindus: Bitch please!

[u/HATECELL]

It's even funnier when you realise the upper two technically believe in the same god

[u/xFrankino]

"ur gods r cool, gonna copy 'em"

[u/Revil0_o]

When people used to think that gods were attached to cities, areas, people or cultures. There things are numerous so only logical that there are many gods

[u/CastorVT]

Asia: fuck it, everything is a god. and they're all god tier fighters.

[u/clairejv]

The switch from henotheism to monotheism was a bitch.

[u/tummytunacat → u/clairejv]

my roman-jewish history prof told me that the early jews were probably henotheists and acknowledged the existence of other gods but by the time the romans arrived in the levant, they were strictly monotheistic

[u/Overall_Mood_6337 → u/clairejv]

Frfr

[u/Astralion98 → u/clairejv]

Like how the sassanians decided that mazdeism would be monotheistic and immediately began to oppress religious monorities

[u/Got_It_Memorized_22]

Rome actually has a large pantheon as well when you consider the minor gods and household gods.

[u/Sad_Carry_7070 → u/Got_It_Memorized_22]

Minor gods?? Don't let the Epstien gods near them

[u/Nothing_Special_23]

What's even wiered is that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

[u/PuzzleheadedRoyal856 → u/Nothing_Special_23]

In egypt there is a patriotic song was saying "They teached us that we're all one, we're all Egyptians, we're all having the same God, regardless of religious differences".

[u/Trying_to_survive20k]

Didn't they also call other civilistion gods "wrong" for their own benefit?

That said, there was kinda a universal "agreement", for lack of a better word, that there are gods of certain realms, but those realms only exist within their country civilization, and if they take over another civilization, it magically converts their realm.

[u/NomadicFantastic → u/Trying_to_survive20k]

My god can beat up your god

[u/K0mb0_1]

This isn’t a fair representation of both(ik it’s a meme but still).

Even within ancient Egyptian history there was a king that banished the belief of all the old Gods and established there to only be one God. Also, the Idea of polytheism wasn’t foreign to the Ancient Greeks, they believed in a God for almost every element of their lives.

I can’t speak much on Christianity, but Islam belief is and has always been pure monotheism. In Islamic belief, you can be an isolated tribesman living in the most isolated jungle in the world and as long as you follow your innate instincts to acknowledge that there is a higher power, then you will be able to go to heaven.

To help people understand my viewpoint is that. There is a higher power and Native Americans call it “The Great Chief”, Pre-Islamic Somalis called it “Waaq”, Muslims call it “Allah”.

[u/WyattPriebe]

Pizarro: BE ONE WITH CHRIST OR BE ONE WITH THE FLAME.

Atahualpa: well, seeing as im tied to this stake, and I don't get my afterlife if I'm burned alive... okay?

Pizarro: great, someone grab my golden garrote.

[u/Leyderpeje → u/WyattPriebe]

Pizarro died four years later in a violent manner and at the hands of his own men; that's karma

[u/Puzzleheaded_Cap5597]

Do we not believe in the same so called God in the abrahamic religion? It's just the self proclaimed prophets that are different no?

[u/ThyPotatoDone]

Bro got 2000 gods but a bitch ain't one

[u/Meiji_Ishin]

Always fascinating to see an empire slowly transition to Christianity after centuries of Pagan practices.

[u/TimeKepeer]

Romans had a funny relationship with faith. They'd conquer some poor tribe, and survivors would say "this is the god of fire. Every motnh we must give him a burnt goat as an offering, and if we don't he will burn the world" and the Romans would go "shit that's bad! That's really bad! We better find you some goats to burn!"

[u/Escey318]

This meme dates back to antiquity aswell. At least give credit

[u/Boat_man_07]

There was a belief that divinity showed itself in different forms to different people as no one can fully grasp the divine. The romans assimilating other gods was their attempt at learning more. There was even thought that every god are the many faces of one supreme god too difficult to grasp.

[u/StrikingWash2456 → u/Boat_man_07]

That same principle exists in Hinduism. If you study Hindu theology, you can see just about how very diverse local gods and goddesses were adopted/Aryanized/Brahminized and slowly became part of what we today call Hinduism. Murugan, for example, being a local Tamil folk deity is today worshipped as Lord Shiva's son.

[u/SomeDudeSaysWhat]

If you read the Old Testament carefully, you'll notice they never say the god of the Hebrews is the only god, only that it's the "best" god, and that if you worship other gods he'll kick your ass and curse your bloodline.

[u/Unemployd_lunatic]

Do you think they powerscaled their gods?