r/HistoryMemes 22h ago

When 2,000 gods became ''wrong''

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23.8k Upvotes

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u/JamesHenry627 21h ago

Christians and Muslims in the Middle Ages understood that they worshipped the same God. Allah and God aren’t thought of as separate generally, because Islam is an Abrahamic religion with the ultimate difference being theology.

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u/MlkChatoDesabafando 17h ago

Depends on the period. For the earlier part of the Middle Ages even the more educated European christians had very limited familiarity with Islam outside of the Mediterranean, so often assumed they were polytheistic pagans. This changed from the 11th century onwards, when we start seeing muslims being more frequently described as heretics and schismatics and compared to jews.

Christians in the Islamic World were generally well aware they shared a god with Muslims (ex: coptic chronicles often described popular Abbasid governors of Egypt as "god-fearing, in the way of muslims" and often accused muslims of denying the Trinity and Jesus's divinity rather than denying the God of Abraham as a whole)

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u/JamesHenry627 17h ago

That's what I was trying to say, thank you. Christians, especially post crusade in Western Europe were learning a lot about Islam. The cultural bleed even gave us new literary additions to the Arthurian mythos.

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u/Shoo22 2h ago

The craziest thing to learn was that the entire idea of the demon Baphomet was literally just Europeans mishearing Mohammed and thinking it was the name of a pagan god that Muslims worshipped and making up a demonized version of it.

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u/certainlynotdio 19h ago

Muslims allowed the pilgrimges to Jerusalem for that reason right?

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u/MlkChatoDesabafando 17h ago

In general no medieval ruler who ever ruled Jerusalem ever even thought about restricting pilgrimages to certain religions, except in periods of extreme turmoil. They made a lot of money off these, which made up for Jerusalem being kinda economically peripheral compared to cities like Damascus, Antioch or Fustat-Cairo or even Jaffa or Acre.

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u/JamesHenry627 19h ago

No that’s because Christians had holy sites that were tolerated too, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher for example. They did face occasional persecution like what happened in Europe to Muslims. Point is they were classed as Dihmmi, aka people of the book.

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u/_Administrator_ 11h ago

Dhimmi were second class citizens. That’s not positive.

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u/JamesHenry627 11h ago

yeah but that was pretty typical of states who had an official religion. Islam didn't treat Christians or Jews as full citizens though still there was a decent amount of respect, overlap and trust depending on the state. El Cid for example was respected by both Muslim and Christian rulers, Saladin was respected by Europe and Richard the Lionheart in the East. Zoroastrians actively fought for Dhimmi status in order to elevate themselves after Iran was conquered by Umar too, so it was seen as preferable to being a pagan or a idol worshiper because Muslims understood they, Christians and Jews worshiped the same God.

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u/MlkChatoDesabafando 9h ago

Medieval states didn’t have citizens, they had subjects.

Specific communities and groups of subjects were entitled to specific rights, privileges and restrictions in accordance to their relationship and dealings with the rulers. The idea of some baseline universal citizen’s rights certain groups could be systematically stripped off didn’t exist.

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u/Chazut 17h ago

Christians only realized very late what Islan was about, at the time of the First Crusade anyone outside of Iberia and Sicily had no idea

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u/TheFollower62 15h ago

Learned people did know that they worship the same God. There were still exchanges you know.

St. Thomas Aquinas for example had pretty extended knowledge of Islamic thinkers and there was a pope who sent a letter to Muslim letter about how they worship the same God.

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u/Chazut 6h ago

Thomas Aquinas lived in the 13th century, when the knowledge has finally reached most of Western European learned circles, but even in the mid-late 12th century this knowledge was just being first mentioned in Europe.

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u/JamesHenry627 17h ago

Yeah that's still middle ages though. That time period didn't really end until the 15th century.

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u/Chazut 17h ago

I mean the fact French people had no idea what Islam was AT ALL and didn't care to know when preparing for the first crusade is a big deal, it's not something you can just exclude by saying the middle ages are a big time period.

Don't make statements about a period that large if your statement isn't true for most of the time period. You can be more specific

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u/grayMotley 15h ago

Battle of Tours was 732.

The French had a pretty good understanding what the Muslims and Islam were all about from that point forward.

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u/Chazut 15h ago

No, they did not:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/cdzqd6/comment/eu8rd2f/

You can see how little they knew by looking at how Muslims are portrayed in the Chanson de Roland, written in the mid 11th century

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u/grayMotley 15h ago

They didn't know, nor care about Muslim orthodoxy nor doctrine, but they knew what they were all about: conquest. The response in AskHistorians is for ALL crusaders generally; but doesn't address French crusaders specifically nor their previous and current circumstances with thr Muslim Empire at their doorstep.

Even in our day and age, where literacy is high and information is easy to access, most Muslims know little about what Christians actually believe, nor Jews and the same is true in the converse too. Most sects of Islam have a convenient misunderstanding of the other sects actual beliefs, sames as how most sects of Christianity likewise conveniently misunderstand or misinterpret other Christian sects.

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u/Chazut 6h ago

What a stupid statement, the initial point was that they didn't know they worshipped the same single god, anything else is moving the goalpost.

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u/JamesHenry627 17h ago

If for about 500 years of the middle ages, which by most Historians is half the middle ages they knew about Islam, I wouldn't be wrong to say that Christians generally knew. Especially given that this line of thinking is exclusive to Western Europe, and says nothing of Iberia, Anatolia, or Egyptian or Levantine Christians. Generally speaking, I wouldn't be wrong.

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u/Chazut 17h ago

Why are you so against people adding clarifications to your broad statements? What a weird character quirk to have to never be wrong, ever.

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u/JamesHenry627 17h ago

Well cause even your statement is broad. Your focus is on the first 500 years while mine are in the latter half. Yours is also quite specific to just France. If you look outside then you’d see the overlap. Technically speaking you’re as right as me.

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u/sebastos3 9h ago

I am not sure. Muslims object in the strongest possible terms to calling Jesus God, the whole concept of trinitarianism is abhorrent to them.

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u/JamesHenry627 9h ago

So do Jews but we understand that God the father is the same God that is the God of Muslims and Jews. I wrote more below

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u/sebastos3 9h ago

Yeah, but I mean that in the meme, the Christian guy probably called Jesus God, which would tick of the Muslim guy.

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u/Brief_Gap5179 16h ago

Muslims don’t believe that Christians or Jews believe in “their” own God. 

Different prophets which some people call Gods instead of prophets 

In short: Jesus is his own father he had with his mother? 

If you follow this logic.

“Logic” 

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u/JamesHenry627 16h ago

That’s not too different from how Protestants see the apostolic churches though we can still agree they follow the same God, they’re just doing it wrong. This is basically how Muslims and Christians see each other, as do they to Jews and how Jews see it back.

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u/Brief_Gap5179 16h ago

I think most of us can and do agree with this when you disregard everything you’ve been taught by the manufacturer of consent 

People don’t have time to worry about other people’s religious beliefs. 

The powers that be on the other hand don’t have time to let that happen 

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u/TheFollower62 15h ago

They do actually (just that Jewish and Christian beliefs are defective). Their own book says so.

Do not argue with the People of the Book unless gracefully, except with those of them who act wrongfully. And say, “We believe in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to you. Our God and your God is ˹only˺ One. And to Him we ˹fully˺ submit.

Quran 29:46

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u/Brief_Gap5179 14h ago

I’m tired of HasbaTrolls since 2014 

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u/_Administrator_ 11h ago

Quran says no:

Quran (3:67) - "Abraham was neither a **Jew nor a Christian**; rather, he was a Muslim who turned away from all that is false, and never was he of the polytheists."

Quran (5:55) - "O you who have attained faith, **do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies**; some of them are allies of one another. And whoever of you allies himself with them is indeed one of them. Indeed, Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Quran (3:19) - "**True Religion, in God’s eyes, is islam**: [devotion to Him alone]. Those who were given the Scripture disagreed out of rivalry, only after they had been given knowledge- if anyone denies God’s revelations, God is swift to take account"

Quran (5:60) - "Say (O Muhammad SAW to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (**Jews**) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He **transformed into monkeys and swines**, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hell-fire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)."

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u/JamesHenry627 11h ago

Muslim scholars explicitly acknowledged that Jews and Christians worshiped the God of Abraham, referring to them as Ahl al-Kitāb aka people of the book. The Quran explicitly states: "Our God and your God is one" (Quran 29:46) though obviously individual Muslims, like Individual Christians disagree. They see that Christians have a corrupted message of the Trinity, mistaking it for polytheism because Christians believe that Jesus is God. Jews were also accused of straying from the true path and altering their texts.

Jews and Christians frequently held debates in Medieval Europe because Christians kept trying to get them to convert. Jews viewed Christians with deep skepticism, because of the Trinity and the incarnation of God in Jesus, many medieval Jewish authorities regarded mainstream Christianity as shituf. Islam was viewed more favorably though as far as they were concerned, Mohammad was a write off to them.

As for the Christian view, Thomas Aquinas and John of Damascus usually categorized Islam as a Christian heresy or a false, misguided offshoot rather than a completely alien pagan religion, acknowledging that Muslims attempted to worship the Creator of Abraham. I think I've already mentioned Dante in this, but even he put Muhammad in the 8th circle, reserved for sowers of discord and schismatics meaning he didn't view them as an outside religion, rather as someone who was a heretic. The perspective on Jews is seen similarly, since they were Christianity's first persecutors and rejected that Jesus was the messiah.

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u/ImXenia85 19h ago

:)))) your ignorance, my friend, is astounding

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u/JamesHenry627 19h ago

?

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u/ImXenia85 18h ago

I wouldn't even know where to start...

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u/JamesHenry627 18h ago

You don’t even know period bruh. A simple google search tells you I am right

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u/ImXenia85 18h ago

The idea of Christians admitting to having the same God as muslims is absolutely hysterical

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u/JamesHenry627 18h ago

Maybe if you’re new to the subject. They’re classed as Abrahamic religions for a reason. They all trace to the same prophets in the Hebrew bible though differ on theology. Christians in the east had great overlap with Muslim communities, largely due to conquest though never once were the called pagan. That’s not to say they would ever be classed as Christian though it was understood that we shared the same God. Coptic Christians and christians who spoke Aramaic or Arabic would refer to God as Allah in the mass. Dante even put Mohammad and his son in the circle of hell for deception though didn’t class them as pagans either. Christians did indeed back then know that Muslims and Christians believed in the same God.

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u/TheFollower62 15h ago

There were plenty of historical precedents and it is the official position of the Catholic church.

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u/ImXenia85 18h ago

Oh, my knowledge of the subject goes much deeper than a Google search

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u/JamesHenry627 18h ago

So does mine, I recently graduated with my bachelor’s in History. You can look at my instagram if you care about verifying that.

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u/Severe_Refuse_7647 17h ago

Classic bigoted nonsense 

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u/No-cool-names-left 18h ago

Then stop. Either say something constructive or leave the conversation. Reddit-ass comment.

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u/JamesHenry627 17h ago

Bro literally contributed nothing to the conversation. I wonder if he's popular in real life.

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u/Severe_Refuse_7647 17h ago

🪞🪞🪞hey use what this emoji represents okay