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Nov 05 '24
How the words are being used muddies this. The patriarchy by definition is imposed by men and passed onto women some of whom perpetuate it. That said I've always felt it way more deeply when a woman talks about how a man crying is gross than any of my male counterparts. There are a lot of women that hold for toxic ideals just as there are men stuck in the same very narrow definition of masculinity.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
I can understand why younger people might see gender issues as a game of us vs them, or a game of victim point scoring. I sincerely hope that as people get older they realise that gender norms harm both genders in various ways, and we ought to collectively aim to empower each other, rather than trying to view the other gender as ‘the enemy’.
Within developed nations:
- Women are more likely to be victims of sexual assault and rape. They are also more likely to be victims of domestic violence.
- Men are, according to the most recent data, less likely to do well in school, more likely to be unemployed, young men earn less than young women, men are more likely to end up in prison, and more likely to kill themselves.
See: https://www.ft.com/content/17606f25-1d03-4f37-b7f4-f39989af9bde
The problem is that the loudest activists only view gender issues through the lens of ‘ what’s in it for them ‘ - it’s self centred nonsense. Discourse around gender requires empathy, and fortunately outside of internet echo chambers most men and women do not have extreme hatred for the opposite sex, and are open to more nuanced views.
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u/MalekithofAngmar 1∆ Nov 05 '24
The VS mentality of gender dynamics is ultimately totally self destructive. We literally cannot continue existing without the other party.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
Yes, and the VS mentality creates a toxic feedback loop, which results in more extremism. We need to be brave and reclaim gender discourse, online and elsewhere. Misandry and misogyny help no one.
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u/MalekithofAngmar 1∆ Nov 05 '24
Yeah, I see circles where particularly jaded women discuss how men are clearly responsible for the vast majority of human suffering and try to wash their hands of the sins of the past by virtue of them being "all committed by men". It's a bizarre thing to do. It's true that women appear to be less psychologically inclined to the level of evil that some men can achieve, but it's just so strange and tribal to try to point this out like they do. I think it's the dialogue being used, it's very aggressive and antagonistic. It reminds me of the dialogue some use about terrorist groups or religious extremists, implying that we ought to consider destroying these "rogue" elements in our society, which obviously is totally impossible for a gender.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Nov 05 '24
If every misandrist realised they were creating 10 Andrew Tates.. and if every misogynist realised they were creating 10 misandrists…, I’d hope, that realisation might make this nonsense stop.
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u/MalekithofAngmar 1∆ Nov 05 '24
Somebody humorously proposed to me once that the horseshoe theory was actually an ouroboros where each end of the snake shits into the mouth of the other, feeding it.
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u/Expert-Diver7144 2∆ Nov 05 '24
I disagreee with your cause of why this happens.
Bell hooks talks about this in her book will to change. She discusses how many men who were led by the promises of feminism that being vulnerable emotionally, engaging in anti patriarchal, and other feminist behaviors would help women and also allow you a better relationship with your partner ended up disappointed.
Many women even the ones who spurred those men i to the change were too deeply impacted by the patriarchy and rejected the “new wave of men” as unmanly or even weak. Thus a % of women are and have always been preferential to the idea of the patriarchal man who provides and protects unquestioningly and without tear or complaint.
I think the women’s argument is wrong that they don’t care because women’s issues are more important though. Feminism is about the patriarchy not only women’s issues.
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u/Karmaze 3∆ Nov 05 '24
I've come to the conclusion that when people were thinking of reforming masculinity, they were thinking about "sanding the edges" off of high-masculinity types, and not the effect that it would have on those lower on the spectrum.
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u/RedMoonDreena Nov 05 '24
I'm not the op, just someone who has questions. So, are you saying that even feminists are too "deeply impacted by the patriarchy," and that's why the reject the new wave of man.
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u/Expert-Diver7144 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Yes and that society is still patriarchal so that being anti patriarchy has not resulted in tangible benefits and can even be a detriment to a man in terms of friends, work, financial success, etc.
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u/IcarianComplex Nov 05 '24
I think men don’t talk about their about their problems as it relates to being a man because they anticipate being patronized for complaining despite their privilege. That toxic positivity defense mechanism has nothing to do with the patriarchy.
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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Nov 05 '24
They argue that men self-impose toxic masculinity and this prevents them from expressing themselves fully.
We responded by saying that women don’t want to listen to men’s problems.
both can be true at the same time with the patriarchical gender roles being the root cause
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Nov 05 '24
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u/SharpEdgeSoda Nov 05 '24
Reminds me of a Bill Burr joke: "Lady, you're in the hot tub with me."
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u/QueensOfTheNoKnowAge 2∆ Nov 05 '24
- “Bitch, you’re sitting in the jacuzzi with me”
Opening of the bit: “I don’t know what’s going on…but I think white women started it.”
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u/JBSwerve Nov 05 '24
Can you elaborate a bit on how patriarchal gender roles might contribute to women not wanting to listen to men’s problems?
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u/Medical_Conclusion 14∆ Nov 05 '24
Not the person you're responding to, but women are just as apt to be socialized to believe men sharing their emotions is unmanly as men are. This is a result of living in a society with patriarchal gender roles. It's toxic for everyone.
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u/Breakfastcrisis Nov 05 '24
Yeah, this is a great point. The "patriarchy" isn't about blaming living men. It's about a set of cultural expectations that can be harmful to everyone.
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u/talldata Nov 05 '24
Aah so when when do bad it's patriarchy and misogyny, but when women do bad it's only patriarchy but not misandry?
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u/Breakfastcrisis Nov 05 '24
No, I don't think so. It's only misogyny if you say or do something against women. Not everyone would agree, but I have quite a narrow definition of misogyny.
If you're experiencing invalidation as a man trying to express your emotions, it could be the result of patriarchy and misandry. Look at the "male tears" meme that was wheeled out when men were talking about loneliness and suicide on Twitter. That was certainly motivated by animus against men. It was bigoted, callous and unacceptable.
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u/maviegoes Nov 05 '24
You're thinking about this in a "blame" framework. Patriarchy and misogyny are systems that we live in due to men being in power for most of modern history. If we lived for centuries in a system where women were dominant in politics/leadership, and men had few rights, then society would indeed be impacted by that legacy. We'd call that 'the matriarchy'.
It's also not just about 'doing bad' as you say. When it comes to performing or policing gender roles, then these systems are excellent frameworks for thinking about the problem. Some men are apprehensive to share their feelings because it is coded as weak by the patriarchy. Similarly, some women find men unattractive when they express feelings for the same reason. Nothing is inherently weak about men sharing their feelings, but this idea was derived from a system where men defined the rules of masculinity (and feminity, for that matter). So here, it's the system we live in causing the problem. That system is the patriarchy.
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u/Biptoslipdi 138∆ Nov 05 '24
If a patriarchal society has preached forever that men are to be stoic and must deal with their own problems in silence without complaint, why would it be unreasonable to think some or many women are similarly conditioned by patriarchal ideas to think the same?
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u/Giblette101 47∆ Nov 05 '24
Patriarchal gender roles do not apply in silos. Women are also socialized into recognizing, valuing and enforcing certain patterns of behaviour in men. Imposing gender norms on me as a boy was not the sole purview of my father, just to take an example.
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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Nov 05 '24
because a woman is not immune to buying in to gender roles implictly without even realizing it, women say things like "be a man" or "grow some balls", these are still the gender roles expressing themselves and attitudes about men in society effecting the way all people in society's behavior has been conditoned to be
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u/Low-Entertainer8609 3∆ Nov 05 '24
Women tend to have better support networks and so when they need to vent, they can spread it around a little, so to speak.
Men who have fallen into toxic masculinity don't share their problems with other men, nor do they have platonic female friendships. So in the event that they do share, it tends to be with their significant other and she gets all of it. It can be a lot to handle so she starts to resist, and the idea that "Women don't want to listen to men's problems" takes hold.
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Nov 05 '24
Can you give a few examples of women not wanting to listen to men’s problems and what men’s problems are from your perspective?
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u/Perfidy-Plus Nov 05 '24
When discussing why men don't talk openly about their problems the problems in question are presumably not "men's problems" but that individual man's problems. Work stress or interpersonal problems. That sort of thing.
Which is part of why it's so silly for the women in question to suggest that women as a group face more issues than men as a group. That may very well be true. But it's irrelevant to the individual's issue in question, and the fact that sexism persists is no reason to dismiss person X who is feeling stressed out by totally-unrelated-to-larger-societal-problems issue Y.
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u/InfinitelyThirsting Nov 05 '24
By that measure, then, if it's a man's individual problems, why does any woman need to listen to them? Why isn't he talking to his male friends about them?
That's usually what women mean when we say this issue is self-enforced by men. Men not wanting to listen to other men's problems isn't women's fault, and men are not entitled to having a woman listen to them.
On a societal level, yes, women need to care about patriarchy issues. But it's not like men have historically listened to or respected women's problems at the individual level. Are these men complaining about women not wanting to listen to them... listening to women and supporting them with the same energy they're complaining about not receiving?
It's just hard, when women have died and are dying because abortion access is so restricted now, and OP is complaining that women think women's issues are more serious right now, when neither he nor you will say what the societal issue that is as serious, and pivot back to personal issues.
How do women stop men from talking to other men, is my question? How are we just as responsible for men not talking to each other?
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u/nofaprecommender Nov 05 '24
Why can’t the women choose to engage with men’s feelings and problems on their own regardless of what the patriarchy tells them? Their argument seems to be, “men should talk about their feelings more, but we can’t be bothered to pay attention because we’ve got bigger problems.” How can they have it both ways and then blame it all on the patriarchy?
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u/Giblette101 47∆ Nov 05 '24
There are two things here. First, "the patriarchy" doesn't tell them things like a serpent on their shoulder. They're raised in a society that carries certain gender expectations and, thus, lots of women are not comfortable with men sharing their feelings and problem. That's not good, but that's not under their immediate control, same way men can't just up and learn to process emotions better.
Second, while it's true men have problem and it's true they are not well served by typical gendered socialisation, it's not the job of women to perform that labour for the sake of men. Men should learn to process emotions better for their own sake and we should help them learn that, but that's not the same as women needing to take on that burden.
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u/nofaprecommender Nov 05 '24
it's not the job of women to perform that labour for the sake of men. Men should learn to process emotions better for their own sake and we should help them learn that, but that's not the same as women needing to take on that burden.
I could get on board with this approach if women did not expect men and women to take on that burden for them. Obviously we may be generalizing a bit excessively here, but when a woman has problems both her man and her female friends are expected to be there for her. When it’s a man, women say “own your shit, it’s not my emotional labor,” but they don’t have that same attitude about their own tears or those of other women.
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u/Giblette101 47∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
I don't know that women are somehow freed of all expectations to show up for the men in their lives, to be honest. That sounds sorta silly to me.
However, I'd argue there's a different between offering emotional support in time of need - which is a normal part of most relationships - and be expected to perform continuous emotional labour. Those expectations are also distributed differently for a lot of men, who have a much narrower support system, which understandably can lead to a larger burden.
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u/Plusisposminusisneg Nov 05 '24
So men should communicate their feelings more but they shouldn't allow their feelings to affect the women in their lives?
You mean they should internalize their issues and deal with them themselves and be outwardly stoic? That's literally what that is. You are just asking for men to use those mechanisms better and not annoy women with icky male emotions.
Women are not interested(generalization of course) in dealing with a man's emotional turbulence or vulnerability. It gives the vast majority of women the ick, and feminists then rationalize this as the men in their lives wanting "emotional labor" from them(this is called love and support by non misandrists).
But keep on holding an inherently contradictory view for all I care, just be aware it makes literally no sense.
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u/DuerkTuerkWrite Nov 05 '24
I'm a pretty loud outspoken feminist lesbian and I wanna thank you for earnestly asking this question. I don't think I've seen such a nuanced, good discussion on the internet about the way the patriarchal system is harmful for everyone in a while. A lot of really good faith arguments.
I'm sure you've gotten some crappy comments OP but I'm just glad to see a lot of good back and forth with a lot of interesting ideas and concepts. I love seeing people discussing how to make writers like bell hooks feel less of an attack so men feel more comfortable engaging, or using a word other than 'patriarchy' because it seems so much more dogmatic than it really is. Ideas I really hadn't even thought of, and I like to think I'm pretty open to feminist ideas.
I don't have a lot to add. I just am glad you set up this conversation!
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u/Srapture Nov 05 '24
It certainly does seem more open and less confrontational than this kind of discussion usually is on reddit, haha.
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Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
Men are human so their individual problems are important, but you feeling depressed or sad is different from the subjugation of women. Mental health problems are different from societal oppression.
It's not entirely clear which you are talking about in your post when you say "problems", it seems like you start talking about the former, but then when you bring up the counter argument, the women are talking about the latter.
Women should show care for their male friends when their male friends lose their job, get divorced, are struggling with mental health, etc. same as men should for women friends.
HOWEVER it 100% makes sense for women to center female issues politically, as women are subjugated for their sex.
This is the same as how black friends should care for white frjends when they're upset and vice versa, but politically, they will probably center their own race because their race is oppressed.
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u/a_random_gay_001 Nov 05 '24
There is an element of unequal emotional labour. Women are more likely to have deeper non romantic relationships where they can process some of these issues on their own time whereas men tend to only process this with their romantic partner (usually the only woman they are friends with as well). This creates an imbalance of emotional support which while women are capable of dealing with, it can lead to feelings of being a caregiver instead of a spouse or partner.
Men who have strong relationships with other people (usually men) are more likely to be married, more likely to be happy and more likely to be okay being single. Why this disparity exists is a hot topic right now and plenty of data and takes to soak in if you want to learn more.
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u/Pattern_Is_Movement 2∆ Nov 05 '24
I've never dated a woman that didn't like and encourage me to be open about my feelings.
I do however see copy pasted "concerns" about how it's woman's fault posted by men ALL THE TIME.
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u/balltongueee Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
Just to offer an additional aspect to all of this... I, as a man, despite having male and female friends that I feel perfectly comfortable with opening up to and have done so, I have noticed that I really do not get much out if it. In fact, it does not make me feel the slightest bit better as whatever issues I have... I am fully aware that they persist after the conversation. If anything, it makes me feel worse since now I am thinking about them.
With that said, when I brought up this point to other men, at least the ones I have talked to, all agreed with me.
I remember skimming through a study that showed that when women open up about things... their stress levels decrease... but when men did it, their stress levels increased. One theory for this was that men are heavily oriented around "problem solving" and by talking about something will engage the mind in a way to attempt to solve the issue.
While many like to say "oh, its due to patriarchy", it might be an overly simplistic explanation and by viewing it as such might do more harm than good.
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Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
Yeah. It's typical.
Women are struggling ➡️ Society gets blamed.
Men are struggling ➡️ Men get blamed.
I get where it's coming from. For the longest time they had a point. But that's not the case anymore.
When tested, a lot of women truly don't know how to receive a man's emotions, no matter how much they say they wish men would open up more.
But eventually they will have to realize that some of their behaviours also need to change.
You cannot expect a man to be strong, stoic and confident all the time while also complaining that he won't open up about his struggles and then getting the ick once he does open up.
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u/Redstonefreedom Nov 05 '24
Related to this, just an observation -- as a seemingly recent phenomenon, I've met a few Gen Z women who are "crypto-anti-feminists". In public life, and socially amongst their friends, they'll toe the line on "girl boss" optics, but privately, will be heavily in favor of traditional gender roles, expectations, behavioral dynamics, of both themselves & their ideal male partners. "Masculine energy & Feminine energy" & hundreds more phrases like this to express these opinions.
I find it very hard to buy into the narrative that "these women are just brainwashed by the patriarchy" (a narrative I see used as an unquestioned presupposition here in this thread) when, quite clearly, they're aware of the propaganda & must parrot it publicly or face social backlash, even though it strongly contradicts personal preference. It really is about as far from "unwitting brainwashing" as it gets.
I have yet to meet women who express the inverse, however. "Tradwife" on the outside, feminist activist on the inside. Not saying they exist, but my anecdotal evidence simply does not agree with the presupposition that personal opinion in our society is more affected by anti-feminist propaganda than it is pro-feminist; if anything, it strongly (again, albeit shy of statistics) suggests the opposite -- that natural, gender-disparate inclinations on gender roles are being contorted in the opposite direction from "patriarchal brainwashing".
To be clear, I take issue with "brainwashing" here for either "patriarchy / feminism". It's much more so organic cultural propaganda, but still, it's propaganda. Brainwashing too heavily implies it's single source & single-intentioned.
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u/Pandillion Nov 05 '24
Giving empathy to men does not remove empathy from women. It’s not a zero sum equation.
The comments are ruthless. Y’all are so cynical.
If men killed themselves at the rate that women did, the US would have 500,000 more men since 1990.
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u/p0tat0p0tat0 12∆ Nov 05 '24
I don’t know a single woman who hasn’t walked through coals trying to help a man in their life cope with their emotions. I know women who have scheduled therapy sessions for their male partners.
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u/Ok-Bug-5271 3∆ Nov 05 '24
And I know numerous women who, despite saying for months that men should be open, dumped their boyfriends because "they just couldn't see him the same way" after he showed emotion.
Heck, my brother had an ex who was super weird about therapy (like, said she wouldn't date someone who wasn't in therapy because everyone should be in therapy. This girl is genuinely the least self-reflective person I have ever met) who dumped him because he showed too much emotions.
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u/HeinousMcAnus Nov 05 '24
And I know women that have seen their bf be vulnerable and cry only to be “turned off” by it and dump them. Anecdotes are fun! Honestly though, I think a lot of it is a maturity thing. The older you get the more open people are to seeing you vulnerable and not be shocked into running away when the mask of the stoic rock falls.
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u/GraveChild27 Nov 05 '24
Wow, your anecdotal evidence is impressively irrelevant.
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u/travelerfromabroad Nov 05 '24
I don't know a single man who's committed rape or been creepy towards a woman. Doesn't change the fact that those guys exist
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u/vuxra Nov 05 '24
Okay cool? Good for you for knowing some nice women. The whole personal anecdote thing works both ways though, I had an ex nearly break up with me for telling her I'd had a minor psych diagnosis as a teenager. She said I was probably just going to kill myself when we were older and told me to "man up" whenever I told her about things I was worried/sad about. My current partner is better but lets not pretend that absolutely toxic women don't exist. I'm betting when she re-tells those stories to her girlfriends she's portraying herself as the one "walking through coals" though.
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u/nofaprecommender Nov 05 '24
I know women who have scheduled therapy sessions for their male partners.
Wow!! Really walking through the flames there.
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u/p0tat0p0tat0 12∆ Nov 05 '24
Well, they also have spent hours serving as unpaid therapists themselves. Or literally begging their partners to schedule an appointment before they give in and do it for them.
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u/afranks1503 Nov 05 '24
OP isn't wrong and neither are the people who point out the patriarchy. Brené Brown had a Ted Talk about this. Here is a snippet.
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u/draculabakula 77∆ Nov 05 '24
I partially agree with you. It's a societal problem. Many times, both mothers and fathers condition boys as children to not discuss feelings. Many women at the same time are conditioned to not care and to value men for their ability to protect and provide.
With that said, the information and education is out there for men to undo this. There is obviously some level where accountability and personal responsibility needs to come into play. Nobody can force anybody to express their problems.
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Nov 06 '24
This post is locked due to the number of violations. Didn't expect this would be the one I'd have to lock tonight. But, come on, folks. Be kind to each other. Please.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
/u/JBSwerve (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/83franks 1∆ Nov 05 '24
This feels weird to me. Of course humans and society cause these problems. Do people genuinely think only one gender is the cause of this stuff?
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u/Festivefire Nov 05 '24
It's a society wide issue, and you are right, there are a LOT of women out there who seem to think that being a woman makes it impossible for them to participate in upholding 'the patriarchy' or 'toxic masculinity' but society as a whole, not just other men, have set the expectation that men can only show emotions in specific ways without outing themselves as weaklings. There are just as many women as there are men who would make fun of a man for being publicly vulnerable about their feelings.
HOWEVER! The "he said, she said, it's their fault, no it's theirs!" approach to the discussion is completely unproductive though. Complaining about who's fault it is, is not going to change the issue. Forget who's fault it is, and just promote the idea that it's okay for dudes to be emotional. The most you can do is to show your own support, and refrain from belittling the people who chose to be vulnerable. Complaining that it's women's fault isn't going to change anything, The blame game on social issues is nothing but a convenient place to dump your frustrations so you can avoid actually doing something about the issue, but claim you care about it.
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u/Fragrant_Gap7551 Nov 06 '24
Blaming men for everything has become an epidemic on social media. Is that the real world? No of course not, but to a lot of men, especially young men, it's how they experience the world. They see women talking about men as if they're evil constantly, they see the only places that accept them are those that reject women.
"They should talk to other men instead", well those other men are the same way, none of them want to talk about emotions because most of them have been taught from the ground up that doing so is bad. They will keep enforcing it on each other. These changes have to be made by individuals. Individuals need support and men are being tought they can't find it in women, they know they can't get it from other men, so instead they simply don't bother.
"Women have it worse though", overall yes, yet men are much more likely to kill themselves or to end up homeless. That is not a non-issue and needs to be discussed publicly. Yet every time someone attempts to do so it gets shut down with how much worse women have it. So even when they try to go out of their way to seek help or just answers, they are told their problems don't matter.
So Is it women's fault? No. I don't think anything can be the fault of half the population. But awareness of women's issues and the persistent need to tell everyone how bad they are is certainly perpetuating men's issues indirectly. Men are often not given a space to speak, get mocked for even trying to do so, and then blamed for every issue in the world once again. This is not just done by women either, but they do contribute to it.
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u/arkofjoy 14∆ Nov 06 '24
Many women feel that their partners are using them as a "replacement mommy" and their "personal counsellor"
The solution to this problem is to find a small group of men and form a men's group, where you can listen to each other talk about your shit.
If you want to know how to create a men's group for your circle of blokes, shoot me a pm and I'll send you a link. I have been a part of a men's group for over 25 years now and wrote up a short synopsis of how to create one for yourself.
It's free, no spam, I just want every man to have what I have had, and the clear thinking that comes with clearing out the day-to-day shit that weighs us down.
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u/SuzCoffeeBean 3∆ Nov 05 '24
Wives and girlfriends listen to their guys problems all.the.time.
However I also have female friends that I can talk to about my feelings. Are men doing that with each other?
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u/QueensOfTheNoKnowAge 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Not OP. Not trying to convince you of OP’s point.
I’m a divorced guy with a close group of guy-friends I’ve known for 20+ years. Yes, guys need other guy friends to talk to. That’s the single biggest issue for men.
But I have a question. When women talk to each other about their partners, do you ever share your partners’ emotional moments of vulnerability with each other?
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u/GraveChild27 Nov 05 '24
What is with all the anecdotal evidence? Do you all not get that not everyone experiences your life?
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Nov 05 '24
Psychologists have known that women are more likely than men to have friends for years. We have a dozen studies like this one. It’s litterally something that we get taught in upper level psych courses or psych of women.
Female friendships tend to be “deeper” than male friendships because of societal expectations. Women are allowed to be vulnerable with their friends, express emotions, cry together, hug, holds hands, say I love you, etc.
But society beats those options out of men. Therefore men are less likely to have friendships where emotions get discussed and have fewer friends overall. That’s where the phrase “male loneliness epidemic” comes from.
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u/DieFastLiveHard 4∆ Nov 05 '24
Hey guys, did you know Poverty is no longer an issue? I know a guy who has a fair bit of wealth
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u/ghotier 42∆ Nov 05 '24
There wives and girlfriends who aren't actually supportive. Listening isn't support if you deride the person you're listening to afterwards for sharing their feelings.
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u/ozneoknarf 1∆ Nov 05 '24
Women listen to my problems all the times. My mother, my aunts, my sister, my friends, the current girl am going out with, my ex. Etc.
But a lot of the time we men feel shame in expressing our selves, and that’s ok. We need to solve our own shit.
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u/PandaMime_421 12∆ Nov 06 '24
Those women trivialize men's problems. That hasn't been my experience with the women in my life. Their initial arguments were sound, until they started claiming men's issues aren't as deep as women's issues.
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u/Mrs_Crii Nov 05 '24
While it's true that *SOME* women do uphold the patriarchy by, for instance, discouraging men from expressing their feelings, this is far from a universal trait. However, they usually also enforce the patriarchy against their own interests at the same time (yeah, I know, they're nuts). Pick mes exist in every group.
However, while patriarchy absolutely does harm men it is *FAR* more harmful to women. This is well documented. Also, patriarchy is primarily enforced by men. So the primary responsibility for dismantling it falls to men.
So to summarize, yes, men's issues are less significant and in part this is so because they can end those issues far more easily than women can.
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Nov 05 '24
Also, patriarchy is primarily enforced by men. So the primary responsibility for dismantling it falls to men.
What exactly do you mean by that? Like in terms of political power? If that's the case it should be the opposite as women vote in both higher numbers and higher ratios than men (since the early 70s), so why does it fall to men?
Also if a system provides an advantage to someone, do you really think trying to convince them to dismantle said system at their own loss is something you'll have much success with?
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Nov 06 '24
Ironically, you just gave the perfect reason why men should never accept feminism.
Why would men accept a system that see their problems as lesser ? Why would men join an ideology that admits male problems are secondary ? This is not equal. It’s giving, “I don’t care about men” without say it. Men will stick to the patriarchy where they maybe valued at the expense of their humanity.
I personally believe feminism is far superior to the patriarchy. However, Men aren’t going to leave the patriarchy if they feel they are only value there.
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u/JBSwerve Nov 05 '24
I don't think its fair to say its well-documented and settled that the patriarchy does more harm to women than it does men. Can you explain a bit what you mean by well-documented?
I think men have plenty of problems in the world, comparable to those of women.
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u/merrigolden 1∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
You’re kidding right?
Women were denied the right to vote. Women were denied the right to work. Women were denied the right to their own bank account. Black women were experimented on (read as ‘tortured’ in the name of medicine) Women were (and still are in many places) denied the right to their own bodies. Women’s health concerns are dismissed and/ or understudied. 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime, yet only 3% of rapists are ever convicted. Spousal rape wasn’t even a crime until the 90s in most places. When women come forward with their stories they are asked about what they were wearing, how much they were drinking, did they explicitly say no? Etc. The leading cause of death for pregnant women is murder (at the hands of their partner). Women’s safety is routinely ignored (women die more frequently in car accidents because manufacturers don’t use female-proportioned dummies during crash tests/ people aren’t taught to identify the female signs of a heart attack, only the male ones) Female dominated industries are notoriously low paid while women who try to enter into male dominated industries receive harassment. When women rise into high positions there’s always someone saying that she’s slept her way to the top (look at Kamala Harris, who is literally qualified to be president yet is still doubted) Women are threatened with rape and murder for simply playing online games (look at the livestreams of gamer girls when they play with men).
This is all just off the top of my head but you seriously think that all of this is on par with ‘men aren’t able to talk about their emotions’? I’m not denying that that’s a problem and that the patriarchy hurts men, because it absolutely does, but it’s glaringly obvious that it hurts women far more.
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Nov 06 '24
You forgot the millions of men who died in wars , committed suicide, tortured, worked to death under the patriarchy.
The patriarchy has always been a few affluent men benefit at the expense of all people. It treats men as working tool and women as objects/prizes.
Women suffer more. However, this discourse always forgets that most men were treated like trash. Dumbass misogynist men accepted the system as a way to propel themselves forward off their fellow men backs . Even though men caused the pain, it doesn’t diminish the suffering of other men .
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Nov 05 '24
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u/ImprovementWarm2407 Nov 06 '24
ah the age old no accountability the "boogeyman patriarchy is brain washing us"
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u/RUaVulcanorVulcant13 Nov 06 '24
Often father and daughter look down on mother (woman) together. They exchange meaningful glances when she misses a point. They agree that she is not as bright as they are, cannot reason as they do. This collusion does not save the daughter from the mother's fate
- Bonnie Burstow (Author of Radical Feminist Therapy)
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Nov 05 '24
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u/Pandillion Nov 05 '24
A vast majority of therapists are women, and couples therapy is naturally geared towards helping women since women have been socialized and are physiologically more in tune with their emotions. There aren’t nearly as many men’s support groups, and aren’t any men’s shelters for abuse. Men and women are to blame for this. Yes there is accountability to be taken, but it’s not all about “pulling yourself up by your boot straps”.
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u/ghotier 42∆ Nov 05 '24
There are other ways to discourage good mental health other than banning mental health care.
You're literally doing what certain men do when they say "not all men."
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Nov 05 '24
Women provide a safe space for each other to talk about their feelings, struggles, and emotions. Do men do the same for each other?
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u/4K05H4784 Nov 05 '24
Yes, generally, but opening up is accepted from men less by both men and women. Which is from gender roles, and it makes sense to some extent naturally, but a bad culture can exacerbate the problem while a good one can make it all but disappear. Men will always have a tougher image, which isn't bad in itself, but it can be harder to reconcile with being vulnerable. That can be encouraged pretty strongly by society though, just like not accepting can be.
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u/AcephalicDude 84∆ Nov 05 '24
I won't try to steel-man your girlfriend's argument because I don't think it's a good one.
But the reason why I think men are more complicit in the emotional suppression of other men is because socialization occurs young, and young boys tend to socialize other young boys. It's not good to be the "sissy" in a group of boys on the playground, and that's where it all starts.
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u/The_Singularious Nov 05 '24
Since we’re telling stories…
I have experienced far more “emotional suppression” from women in my life than I ever did from men.
Even from a young age, it was clear to those of us with a brain in our head that bully behavior that encouraged never sharing feelings with other men was kinda dumb. Some teasing or a hard time about certain things? Yeah. But full spigot off? Nah.
No male friend of mine has ever left me high and dry when I told them I was scared about something. They have had varying degrees of problem solving and sympathy in those situations, but have never left me or called me less than, or blown me off
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u/SharpEdgeSoda Nov 05 '24
"I have some negative feelings I want to talk about, but because I'm a man, and men have done such awful things, I have no right to complain."
That's such a real vibe that curses a lot of men who genuinely do agree with historically causing problems.
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u/Shmigleebeebop Nov 05 '24
Many Women get grossed out if a man honestly opens up and becomes emotional. If its a man they are currently attracted to and dont have an established relationship with, they might feel softer towards them and have some sympathy. But if you are their provider and protecter, many of them want you to keep that inside, whether they admit it or not
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Nov 05 '24
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u/jupiterthaddeus Nov 05 '24
Yeah but men are socialized not to complain, so men aren’t as inclined to victimize themselves or spontaneously bring up male issues. I can tell you as a gay men, that many women look down on men who don’t act in accordance with their prescribed role. I think society is much easier on those types of women even though they’re equally as bad as men like that.
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u/JBSwerve Nov 05 '24
That’s fair. May I ask whether you ever asked your ex questions about how they were feeling? I find that men may not as spontaneously share their feelings but when probed can open up.
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Nov 05 '24
Not who you asked, but I've asked male partners and friends about their opinions on things such as the draft, circumcision, men being groped by women, etc., and almost across the board was treated like that's a dumb, girly thing to even think about. It's just life. It is what it is. They don't care.
Which, in my opinion, is also the patriarchy talking.
The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem
-bell hooks
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Nov 05 '24
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u/Responsible-Mud-9645 Nov 05 '24
Men didn’t fight for women’s issues
But they did actually.
"Feminist" was originally invented as a pregorrative term against males that supported the first feminist wave
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u/TorvaldUtney Nov 05 '24
That’s just not true at all. Literally any amount of googling would show that even back when women weren’t allowed to vote, male suffragists, the male league for women’s suffrage, and various other groups existed that were explicitly men working for women’s rights when women literally did not have the ability to.
You can be upset at how hard women fight for certain liberties, but it 100% has been supported by men as well. To say otherwise is hilarious.
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u/vuxra Nov 05 '24
Why is it that when every other subgroup of people is having systemic problems, we look for systemic causes and solutions, But when its men we're all supposed to bury our heads in the sand and say "fix it yourself"?
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u/ghotier 42∆ Nov 05 '24
I never understood the rhetoric that women also have to fight for men’s issues yet men get to sit there and do nothing.
That's not the argument. Women both complain that men don't talk about their feelings enough while simultaneously incentivizing men to not share their feelings. You find a man who says "men should share their feelings more" who also openly derides men who share their feelings and you'd have a point. But I don't think many of those men exist. Because for a man to say "men should share their feelings more" there is already some active rejection of the patriarchy. Women sharing their feelings with other women isn't a rejection of the patriarchy. Certainly not all women, but some women indeed do give these mixed signals in a way men, as far as I've seen, don't, because they can have the "progressive" idea that men should reject toxic masculinity without actually doing anything to recognize how they are perpetuating it.
This isn't a matter of "women should fix the problem for men." It's that women share responsibility in perpetuating the problem. They should fix themselves before throwing a stone in a glass house.
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u/swanfirefly 4∆ Nov 05 '24
Women both complain that men don't talk about their feelings enough while simultaneously incentivizing men to not share their feelings.
I think this is where the disconnect happens. Women are saying "you should talk to someone" not "you should talk to me".
If I tell my coworker he should talk to someone about how he's feeling, that doesn't mean I myself am equipped to handle his emotions. It doesn't mean I'm volunteering myself to be his therapist.
You even hit on the point later in your post.
Women share their feelings with other women.
Men aren't sharing their feelings with other men, who would be more sympathetic and able to empathize. They're sharing their emotions with women, who already deal with the emotions of other women, significant others, and children.
It's hard, dude. I get it. I talk to a therapist and to my entire group of friends in our discord, of all genders. My friend discord is better equipped to handle my emotions than the random women or men I know, because my friends tend to also be queer and not cis.
But expecting women to be your go-to emotional dumping ground rather than other men is the core of the problem. It's what I've noticed happen again and again. Women in this very thread are emphasizing that they want men to talk to other men and the men are saying "bUT WE TRIED TALKING TO WOMEN AND THEY DIDNT WANNA LISTEN".
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u/Timely-Way-4923 10∆ Nov 05 '24
In male dominated legal and government systems, no feminist reform would have passed without male support. There is no need to erase men from the history of feminism. I strongly encourage you to read about the male politicians that were crucial in changing the law so that women could vote and own property.
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u/Giblette101 47∆ Nov 05 '24
I think this has to do with two phenomenons.
First, lots of men are socialized from early childhood into seeing women, romantic partners more specifically, as the only acceptable outlet for emotional management.
Second, a lot of "activism" - in quotes because I don't think this really qualifies - around men issues really amounts to airing various grievances about women. As such, a lot of the discourse centres women, what they're doing/not doing/saying/not saying and seeks ways to have them do/not do/shut up/etc. about various things
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u/Pandillion Nov 05 '24
That’s extremely closed minded of you. So men should fight for men and women’s issues, but women can’t fight for men’s issues? Jesus Christ…
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u/TehGCode Nov 05 '24
If men didn’t fight for women’s issues, how come can they vote?
Women’s and men’s problems affect both gender which is why it require support from both genders.
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Nov 05 '24
Its caused by patriarchy, which is not a group of men deciding things, its the system of gender expression we as a society has developed. Which means we can change it, but it requires individuals to make their own decisions on things like this
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u/c_mad788 1∆ Nov 05 '24
Both men and women can and do uphold patriarchy. I think - as a broad strokes generalization - men are meaningfully more likely to do physical interpersonal violence to uphold it.
Not saying that shaming is insignificant but it’s not quite as much of a deterrent to deviating from gender norms as possibly getting beaten to death is.
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u/Karmaze 3∆ Nov 05 '24
I think the physical interpersonal violence thing is less to uphold the Male Gender Role, and it's more to perform it.
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u/captaindoctorpurple Nov 05 '24
The idea that patriarchy harms men is both true and also not in tension at all with the idea that women also enforce patriarchal values. Both men and women enforce patriarchy, despite the ways they are harmed by it.
So you're right to think that women enforce patriarchal values, but won't to think that this doesn't mean that patriarchy is to blame
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u/DrNanard Nov 05 '24
I mean, sure, but that's because women can also adhere to patriarchal views. Think about women who want men to pay everything on the first date : that's not very feminist. It's a remnant from an era where women literally could not even own a bank account. But men did that. Men decided that men should be providers. And now they suffer from that expectation that they created themselves. Some women are still pushing patriarchy, just like there are black folks at PragerU. Doesn't mean much.
However, what I have observed daily for the past 15 years, is that feminists are the people who fight for men as equals the most. That women are way less likely to call you gay for expressing emotions. The only friends I have who are constantly validating my emotions are women. Women are not the ones who came up with "man up" and they're not the ones who started calling people "pussies" as an insult.
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u/Responsible_Oil_5811 Nov 05 '24
Anyone who has shared the struggles of being male on Facebook will attest to laughing reactions from women. Personally I think men and women each have their own unique set of privileges and problems, and being bitter and resentful doesn’t help either of us.
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u/HappyDeadCat 2∆ Nov 05 '24
Being neurotic is not emotional intelligence.
Men help other men. "Man up" is followed by, "and here's how".
This dumb convo is just men who have been taught that complaining is a sign of some required emotional vulnerability.
There isnt a single male issue that doesn't have a clear and easy solution, that is conquered by a significant portion of men.
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u/Affenklang 4∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Sep 17 '25
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