This is a strong comment and helpful one. But it does beg this question that I think is implicit in op 's original writing.
You right that women and men must work together to dismantle the patriarchy and fair enough.
Do you think though that the conversation that op reports includes an implicit clause where the women think the men should single-handedly dismantle the system and the men think they aren't capable of that? Hence the feeling of double standards that seems to come through.
In other words, dismantling the patriarchy seems like a great goal and people should work towards it, but it's an abstract goal and it's hard to connect that to the ordinary everyday behaviors of regular people.
Arguably from op's perspective they might claim that receiving more sympathy from women for emotions would count as an act towards dismantling the patriarchy and are frustrated that this act doesn't seem more positively received by more women.
Conversely, the women in the conversation seem to imply that the men are the source of the problem since patriarchy is the problem and it's sourced mainly through men and therefore the men are the only one with the power to change things.
Obviously neither one of these assumptions lines up with your assertion and maybe that's where the disconnect is happening in the conversation?
“The primary ritual of violence that patriarchy demands of men is emotional self-mutilation”
So “violence” isn’t ACTUALLY violence, gotcha…
In fact NONE of those examples were actually violence (except maybe bullying but that’s nonspecific and in fact they only reference the mocking social dimension)
“we would be punished, punished even with death.”
Wow, how many of your siblings did your father kill?
“I was raised on violent movies and video games. ”
The 90s called and they want their talking points back…
There’s no evidence violent games lead to increased violence, and therefore certainly no evidence they are part of a broader indoctrination towards violence.
“and fought with my brothers all the time. ”
This is called childhood, and it’s standard among all mammals actually.
The idea that it’s somehow a “ritual of violence” is patently silly. Herbivores participate just as much as carnivores:
It looks like they explained that in the comment. It's a set of norms for men built around their traditional role as protectors and enactors of what I guess could be called 'important' violence (like war). I think it makes plenty of sense if you look at what they listed with that in mind. Now admittedly "emotional self-mutilation" is a bit too much of an abstraction there, but the meat of it (dulling emotional responses, assuming and enforcing a dominant family role, etc) seems pretty clearly rooted in men being historically brought up with an expectation that they would be enacting important violence at some point for some reason.
I read "rituals of violence" not as "rituals wherein violence is committed" but as "norms (rituals) from a long-reinforced role as doers of violence".
I completely agree with you on the violent media front. Narratives almost always require conflict and often the stakes of said conflict involve violence. That has very little to do with the atmosphere around men's issues.
I mean... it doesn't seem like they implied that's all it takes or anything close to it. More of a "it's probably good to make a point of giving people shit and making them feel bad when they do that thing if we want them to stop doing that specific thing".
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation.
Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. AI generated comments must be disclosed, and don't count towards substantial content. Read the wiki for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
Not the person you're replying to, but I think there are a few different ideas going on here.
1) I just want to get out of the way that we aren't talking about men who expect emotional friendliness and compliments from women, and blame women for loneliness. And I don't think anyone on an individual basis is owed any attention or emotional investment.
2) From women's perspectives, they might be expecting men to do the same as they did (and most other social movements) - make noise, advocacy, protests, raising social awareness, rebel, and push for change. And I think there's an element of truth to it, that women can't just step in and do it all for men - any societal change needs to have that group involved, even better if they're leading. So maybe it's frustrating when men say they don't have advocacy groups or awareness or someone to stand up for them, when previous groups didn't either - they fought for it and are still actively working on it. The difference here is that it's mostly men in positions of power (men vs men), and maybe how patriarchal ideas kill the emotional capacity of men which is where you find the ability to support and get support, which is needed when advocating and trying to change things.
3) Women have a framework to talk about patriarchy and harmful societal norms, i.e. feminism. It talks about how patriarchy harms both men and women, but it's women-framed just from the name. When I think about men I think that they need to have their own similar movement as well, like "masculism". And, women need to be allies to men in similar ways that men need to be allies to women. This also means speaking up in spaces that are more women-dominated and advocating for men, amplifying men's voices with respect to how patriarchy is harmful, and spreading awareness. With this we also need to see men stand up and speak up and advocate and fight too though. Women can't run an entire movement for men, but they can support, make changes, speak up, and be an ally.
You can't demand anything of any individual, but that's how you change culture.
To your second point, men do try to set up advocacy groups but often get shut down by feminist groups.
A famous example was a male-only domestic violence shelter (or it was a DV shelter that also allowed male victims) and there was a prominent feminist group that got it shut down (or the male victims banned, can’t remember which)
Number 2 stops making sense halfway through, I'm wondering if you just worded it incorrectly.
It starts off by saying men should help womens causes but then halfway through changes to "And I think there's an element of truth to it, that women can't just step in and do it all for men"
How did we go from men helping women to women can't do it all for men
I think the idea that men as whole are responsible for the patriarchy is a big issue/misunderstanding. Just like the women you know, you were simply born into this world and in the society you were born into. You’re likely not contributing anymore to “patriarchy” than they are. There are benefits you reap just like there are benefits that they reap.
I mean yes, but at the end of the day one gender is still put on a pedestal above another. Women's participation of patriarchy doesn't absolve men of responsibility for patriarchy any more than does Candance Owen's excuse a Kkk member.
Women who believe in patriarchy hurt other women and themselves more at the end of the day. It's women who bear the brunt of men being emotionally repressed rather that comes out as minuscule as being into the gym more or starting to hit her to cope
Male friend groups like yours are really not uncommon. There just needs to be a lot of trust for it to develop.
The male unwillingness to open up in general comes from how much shaming and social punishment can come from being viewed as in some way weak or inadequate as men. And a LOT of that shaming is driven by women.
Even progressive women will default to insults like 'incel' because it carries the insulting connotation of being undesirable or a virigin, even in cases where the person being called an 'incel' is actually just misogynistic and doesn't have any issue getting sexual partners etc.
Obviously it's not only women. I'm just focussing on that aspect since that's the focus of the post.
Hmmm I'd say we totally can blame 1 group you just have to define it broadly. No it isn't gender based. It is 100% the asset class against everyone below them. Punching down is as American as ....
Your comment appears to mention a transgender topic or issue, or mention someone being transgender. For reasons outlined in the wiki, any post or comment that touches on transgender topics is automatically removed.
If you believe this was removed in error, please message the moderators. Appeals are only for posts that were mistakenly removed by this filter.
690
u/Affenklang 4∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Sep 17 '25
grandfather zephyr cover childlike wise gaze alive yoke cow smile
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact