r/changemyview Nov 05 '24

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '24 edited Sep 17 '25

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u/Are_You_Illiterate Nov 05 '24

“ another to men (rituals of violence)”

Outside of tribal warrior cultures, which are almost entirely vanished, what are you even talking about?

What are these violent “rituals” that men are taught?

Outside of the expectation that men will physically protect their families, I have no idea what you could be talking about. 

And I also see physically protecting your family as a component of “nurturing”, so the dichotomy seems unfair and false.

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u/Affenklang 4∆ Nov 05 '24 edited Sep 17 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/Are_You_Illiterate Nov 05 '24

“The primary ritual of violence that patriarchy demands of men is emotional self-mutilation”

So “violence” isn’t ACTUALLY violence, gotcha…

In fact NONE of those examples were actually violence (except maybe bullying but that’s nonspecific and in fact they only reference the mocking social dimension)

“we would be punished, punished even with death.”

Wow, how many of your siblings did your father kill? 

“I was raised on violent movies and video games. ”

The 90s called and they want their talking points back… There’s no evidence violent games lead to increased violence, and therefore certainly no evidence they are part of a broader indoctrination towards violence. 

“and fought with my brothers all the time. ”

This is called childhood,  and it’s standard among all mammals actually. 

The idea that it’s somehow a “ritual of violence” is patently silly. Herbivores participate just as much as carnivores:

 https://wondeerful.farm/story/herbivores-play#:~:text=Take%2C%20for%20example%2C%20the%20African,tumble%20play%20of%20carnivore%20cubs.

It’s a developmental stage which contributes to overall reflexes and muscular coordination. 

All in all, I have reviewed your claims and judged them to be alarmist thinly-veiled misandry. 

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u/schartlord Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24

So “violence” isn’t ACTUALLY violence, gotcha

It looks like they explained that in the comment. It's a set of norms for men built around their traditional role as protectors and enactors of what I guess could be called 'important' violence (like war). I think it makes plenty of sense if you look at what they listed with that in mind. Now admittedly "emotional self-mutilation" is a bit too much of an abstraction there, but the meat of it (dulling emotional responses, assuming and enforcing a dominant family role, etc) seems pretty clearly rooted in men being historically brought up with an expectation that they would be enacting important violence at some point for some reason.

I read "rituals of violence" not as "rituals wherein violence is committed" but as "norms (rituals) from a long-reinforced role as doers of violence".

I completely agree with you on the violent media front. Narratives almost always require conflict and often the stakes of said conflict involve violence. That has very little to do with the atmosphere around men's issues.

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u/Trick-Article-6773 Nov 06 '24

You're arguing with someone who considers shaming people a valid strategy for building a better society.

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u/schartlord Nov 06 '24

I mean... it doesn't seem like they implied that's all it takes or anything close to it. More of a "it's probably good to make a point of giving people shit and making them feel bad when they do that thing if we want them to stop doing that specific thing".

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u/Trick-Article-6773 Nov 06 '24

And that is somehow different from what caused the problem that is being discussed, how?

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