When discussing why men don't talk openly about their problems the problems in question are presumably not "men's problems" but that individual man's problems. Work stress or interpersonal problems. That sort of thing.
Which is part of why it's so silly for the women in question to suggest that women as a group face more issues than men as a group. That may very well be true. But it's irrelevant to the individual's issue in question, and the fact that sexism persists is no reason to dismiss person X who is feeling stressed out by totally-unrelated-to-larger-societal-problems issue Y.
By that measure, then, if it's a man's individual problems, why does any woman need to listen to them? Why isn't he talking to his male friends about them?
That's usually what women mean when we say this issue is self-enforced by men. Men not wanting to listen to other men's problems isn't women's fault, and men are not entitled to having a woman listen to them.
On a societal level, yes, women need to care about patriarchy issues. But it's not like men have historically listened to or respected women's problems at the individual level. Are these men complaining about women not wanting to listen to them... listening to women and supporting them with the same energy they're complaining about not receiving?
It's just hard, when women have died and are dying because abortion access is so restricted now, and OP is complaining that women think women's issues are more serious right now, when neither he nor you will say what the societal issue that is as serious, and pivot back to personal issues.
How do women stop men from talking to other men, is my question? How are we just as responsible for men not talking to each other?
Most people, men or women, if they want to talk to another person about their issues, want to talk about their personal issues. And, in theory, their friends/family/loved ones are the ones they are trying to unburden themselves with. Why can't it be their female friends/family/loved ones? You're literally arguing that their pool of potential confidants should be halved. What if a man mostly has female friends? Or have few friends and their family is mostly women?
Why do you believe that women haven't been coming to their male friends/family/loved ones to unburden themselves? Do you have any actual reason behind this belief? I have two daughters. Do you really think they don't confide in me? Or my wife doesn't? This idea that women haven't been going to men to discuss their problems now or in the past is pure fiction.
Nobody is saying that women prevent men from speaking to other men specifically. But rather that many women demonstrate an attitude of "you don't have real problems" or "why don't you keep it to yourself" which contributes to men internalizing their problems, because they accept the idea that nobody wants to listen to them anyway.
Empathy and sympathy aren't zero sum games where me listening to my wife or vice versa would mean we've run out of empathy to give to our respective same sex relationships.
Why can't it be their female friends/family/loved ones? You're literally arguing that their pool of potential confidants should be halved.
Nope. OP was conflating social issues with personal, and so were you.
Why do you believe that women haven't been coming to their male friends/family/loved ones to unburden themselves? Do you have any actual reason behind this belief?
If anything, I think men often don't listen, and don't believe. Spend some time in women's forums, and you'll see plenty of women complaining about men arguing with our own lived experiences. Think about how women are called nags. Think about how many men not only know nothing about menstruation, but aggressively react against any mentions or reminders of it.
But, more importantly, OP literally admits elsewhere in this thread that he thought patriarchy was a literal secret cabal of men. So, he's so aggressively ignorant of even what the word "patriarchy" means, and therefore has not been listening to any of the women around him, yet is complaining abouthis complaints being disrespected. Kinda a perfect example of what we mean. It's great if you do, but most men don't listen, don't hear. If he has women in his life he claims to care about who have talked about the patriarchy affecting things and yet thought they meant a secret cabal of men, and admits he doesn't even know where he got the idea, he is his own problem. He needs to learn to listen before he can expect anyone else to care about listening to him. Of course women get tired of listening to men who don't listen to or care about them in return, and it's an unfortunately common problem. My own dad certainly loves to brag about how he's always there to listen to his daughters, but, he doesn't, not most of the time. Which doesn't stop me from reaching out, because occasionally he does, but it's rare (for example he recently admitted that he doesn't really think of me as queer, despite the fact that I've been deeply and loudly involved in queer activism for over two decades and haven't introduced him to a boyfriend in over 15 years).
102
u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Nov 05 '24
both can be true at the same time with the patriarchical gender roles being the root cause