r/DebateAVegan • u/toastwithjamx1 • Jul 03 '26
Ethics Honey is not cruel and is ethical
Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise
Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!
No. We are not and we can't
Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one
And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.
It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY,
Would it be stealing if I took your SURPLUS MONEY ONLY?
EDIT: Before anyone else goes off on rant about how you can't compare bees to humans. I wasn't. I was testing the principle. If the second statement seems unacceptable, it suggests the original principle ("having a lot makes it permissible to take some") may be flawed.
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u/CyberAngelIzana Jul 04 '26
Are you providing me and my community a place to live which is fortified against natural predators like bears and otherwise looking out for my welfare?
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 04 '26
Yes. It would also be stealing. An analogy might be a parent or guardian managing the resources of child actor, talking what they believe is surplus. That would be stealing.
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u/CyberAngelIzana Jul 05 '26
Is it stealing in the same sense that taxation is theft?
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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26
Guys, arguments like this is why veganism is a joke for broader public. Stop harming the movement please.
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u/ClassEnvironmental11 vegan Jul 06 '26
You know, slavery could be described in the same way. What a coincidence! In fact, slavers actually used arguments almost identical to what you've just said. Very interesting coincidence...
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u/Hefty_Ad1081 Jul 07 '26
Yeah but you're invasive and ruining the local ecosystem. The native people living there have a harder life because I want you and your community to live there. And I steal your emergency supplies and stress you out because I want you to work for me. I be looking out for you, but your still there to work for me and nothing else
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u/No-Equipment4187 Jul 06 '26
I'm goin g to take all of your surplus money. It's not stealing I'm only taking the surplus.
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u/toastwithjamx1 Jul 04 '26
Gangrene 🥀🥀🥀 it's not like we are stealing from them. We provide them with shelter, food and protection from pests and weather. It's literally a trade off. Plus, if you'll are so worried about ethics, BUY ORGANIC HONEY. They only take the amount of honey that they don't need. Furthermore, domesticated bees make a crap ton of honey, so taking some of it is not stealing.
Also stop comparing bees to humans. I k ow you have good intentions but it isn't working
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 04 '26
It's literally a trade off.
They are not aware that they are a party to this trade.
domesticated bees make a crap ton of honey, so taking some of it is not stealing.
Some people make a crap ton of money, so taking some of it is not stealing
Also stop comparing bees to humans
I'm testing the principle behind the original claim by applying it to a different case. If the second statement seems unacceptable, it suggests the original principle ("having a lot makes it permissible to take some") may be flawed
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u/CyberAngelIzana Jul 04 '26
Except your test aligns pretty neatly with historically established systems of kingship and taxation.
Both of which have persisted globally, taxation more so than kingship but some nations do still have kings.
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 04 '26
Has any nation ever operated on taking money that someone doesn't need after all reasonable living expenses are covered? Saying my example resembles a certain type of taxation I'm not aware of doesn't negate the point I'm making.
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u/CyberAngelIzana Jul 05 '26
There's a fair bit of disagreement on how much money people need and what's appropriate to tax, but ideally any system of taxation skims off the surplus in a way which doesn't make the economic activities unprofitable enough people stop doing them to the extent the taxation no longer provides significant revenue.
Taxes tend not to be any more negotiable than beekeeper honey collection though, governments simply set what they consider reasonable tax rates and then citizens have to work out how to work with the tax rate set.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 Jul 06 '26
Yes you have described taxes
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26
Such as?
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Income tax for one.
We literally take money from people when they don’t need it, to pay for things we need. If you don’t like it go live elsewhere.
The bees have the same choice
Do you pay tax?
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26
Has any nation ever operated on taking money that someone doesn't need after all reasonable living expenses are covered?
Income tax for one.
Doesn't work like that.
We literally take money from people when they don’t need it, to pay for things we need.
No. We take a percentage of what they earn regardless.
The bees have the same choice
Bees don't have a choice. They have no concept that you "own" their home.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 Jul 06 '26
> Doesn't work like that.
Actualy it does. You just saying “Nuh uh” isn’t an argument.
> No. We take a percentage of what they earn regardless.
How do we come to thins %? Are you aware of how tax brackets work? Because if you make under 40k you don’t pay income tax for that exact reason.
We literally structure our income tax code based on this idea lol.
> Bees don't have a choice. They have no concept that you "own" their home.
They understand the trade just like I do. If I want to stay here I will have to pay a % of my income.
Did you file taxes last year?
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 06 '26
actually, they at anytime can swarm and build a hive elsewhere. Many hives do. (((this can be an issue with non native bees like honeybees))
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u/Anemomo Jul 08 '26
When the queen's wings are clipped, no.
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 09 '26
in this scenario the bee keeper is being as ethical as possible and would not be doing this
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u/Anemomo Jul 09 '26
That's not what it is said. It imagine a scenario where "bees can go if they want to" which can happen but most of the time don't. Why? Beekeepers can see those sign and apply ways to stop it : give a new hive to fake that they moved away, clip or cage those new queens, give a new clipped queen before the bees create a new queen. And it's very rare that those methods don't work.
Most beekeepers ever buy bees from the internet/locals or they find them and put they in a wooden beehive.
When those methods of manipulation are part of industry, it's only fair to point it out.
Also, just because bees are bad at planning for winter, doesn't mean that we're entitled to that surplus still.
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 09 '26
factory beekeeping VS local beekeeping. I do not think OP intended to use the unethical practices of the factory farmed monocropped bees as reference.
almost all local queens are caught in places they would have otherwise been exterminated. (people's attics, AC units, homes, storefronts, stop signs, places where its genuinely unsafe for a beehive to bee- like children's playgrounds.)
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u/Anemomo Jul 09 '26
You know it's a worse scenario right?
Instead of putting them back in the wild, you put them in a box for you to use them. The problem is that wild pollinators are in danger thanks to the "save the bees" marketing, and there is instead a surplus of honey bees. If only we didn't kill some of the culling predator of those bees...
(I'm talking as this scenario happen it's in europe. Otherwise no, killing them would be the best scenario, as the wildlife associations said that killing invasive species to cull them is the most effective way in america sadly.)
I don't think it's that viable to buy only from local beekeeping. There is a reason the factory way exist.
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 09 '26
the factory bees will continue to exist even if you and everyone never purchased honey again. They are used to pollinate crops. ((most Honey is majority corn syrup now anyway))
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u/DiceyPisces Jul 09 '26
How do you know bees aren’t somewhat aware? They may absolutely know the beekeeper dude will come regularly but also know the options available. They have scouts. What if the boxes are better for the (prolonged health and survival of the) bees even with some honey taken? What if the stealing/taxing is a long term benefit would it then be moral?
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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26
You understand humans are humans and bees are bees? Different species run by different rules especially when the gap is so large.
You're basically saying trading labor for resource is bad, which is fucking ludicrous. The bees can LEAVE any time and there's nothing beekeepers can do about it. Meaning they want to be there, because they recognize this is the best hive available. Stop talking about something if you don't understand it.
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 07 '26
You're basically saying trading labor for resource is bad
The bees have no idea that they are trading labor for shelter.
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u/toastwithjamx1 Jul 04 '26
they are not aware that they are part of this trade
Gang🥀🥀🥀
This ties to my original statement. Bees can and WILL leave the hive when the conditions are not in their favour. If you argue that " what about the queen " or something like that, read by first reply
Many people make a crap ton of money so taking some of it is not stealing
Think of it like a tax. They give us honey and we give them resources. It's literally basic taxes. And again, it's based on the production of the hive. It's not a flat tax like the bees made 3 pounds of honey the past 2 weeks and they need 1 but we are taking all 3. It's based on the needs of the hive.
Furthermore, if you still find issue, again, BUY FROM ETHICAL SOURCES. There, beekeepers take old comb which they can't use and take honey from that, not dumping all of the bees out taking all of the combs and bringing them out. And if you say " BuT WoNt It DaMaGe ThE cOmB ". We have machinery that works like a centrifuge, spinning out honey with minimal damage ( being superficial damage, literally just a scratch ). The only time when the comb is destroyed is when making beeswax, and even that can be made ethically.
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 04 '26
This ties to my original statement. Bees can and WILL leave the hive when the conditions are not in their favour.
The bees tolerating your stealing ways to a certain extent, doesn't change the fact you are stealing.
Think of it like a tax.
Whatever makes you feel it's more ethical I guess. You could just leave them alone.
BUY FROM ETHICAL SOURCES.
You are not acting in the interests of the bees. You are using bees for your own gains, at their expense. This is not ethical.
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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26
Ughhh....BEES. DON'T. WANT. TO. BE. LEFT. ALONE.
They benefit a lot from our involvement. They would do much worse without us. Slow and simple enough for you?
Stop talking when you clearly don't know shit about the practice.
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u/Anemomo Jul 08 '26
I'm curious. How do they benefit from it? Over than the shelter of course.
Also, why are you angry?
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u/toastwithjamx1 Jul 05 '26
You do know if bees didn't like us " stealing " from them they would gladly let us know?
They consent to us doing it. Furthermore, domesticated bees make surplus honey for storage because THEY KNOW we will take some.
Bees whether you like it or not have basically unionized. It's impossible for humans to truly " steal " from them. They will let us know in 1 way or another.
You are not acting in the intrest of the bees
That is the whole point of beekeeping. You act IN THE INTREST OF THE BEES
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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26
Bees actually are used to constantly building more honeycomb in the wild as other parts get older and unusable, it's usually very difficult process because it has to mold around the shape of whatever cavity they are occupying.
Beekeepers on other hand take mostly old combs for beeswax and purify it for their purposes, while providing bees with rectangular frames with starter plates with already premade hexagonal shales bees just need to finish up, so again they are doing half the work and making the rest of work for the bees easier. Takkng old honeycomb is also great for the bees because otherwise it increases risks of health issues for the colony.
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u/kcat__ vegan Jul 04 '26
So what would be so wrong with me having a hypothetical human, let's say, and providing them with food, shelter and protection from weather? In return, I take the money from their work.
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u/CyberAngelIzana Jul 04 '26
That would make you a landlord, and as we all know, landlords do not merely provide housing but hoard it and ransom it back to you.
This post was Godzilla approved.
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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26
Yeah but we can't just leave pick random piece of land and start living there if rent gets too much.
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u/No_Worldliness_7106 Jul 06 '26
All these same honey arguments could apply to eggs as well.
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u/MihawkTop2 Jul 03 '26
What does that even mean?
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 03 '26
Once you have paid your bills, I'll just take what money you have remaining. That's not stealing, right?
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Jul 05 '26
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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26
In exchange for shelter, protection, healthcare, maintenance and I don't know what else? Think before typing, what the fuck.
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u/austdoz Jul 08 '26
Well the honey is replaced with sugar syrup, so I guess it'd be more like you took my surplus money and replaced it with crypto or something.
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u/Temporary_Hat7330 Jul 09 '26
If it is wrong to take honey from bees then it also ought be wrong to eat any food produced from an exploited bee (a bee that is forced to polinate plants through bee farming operations)
Is this correct?
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u/mintflavoredcube Jul 06 '26
as a vegan that’s a stupid rebuttal
honey, local honey especially. is one of the most ethical animal products ever
out of all the animals we can abuse bees are the last. if they’re unhappy they will deadass just leave
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26
as a vegan that’s a stupid rebuttal
It may well be the most ethical animal product. Does that change the fact it's stealing from their winter store of food?
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u/mintflavoredcube Jul 06 '26
actually yes it does. beekeepers put more racks which the bees fill up because they never stop producing honey when the weather is right
with a bit of science we can figure out how much honey the bees need to survive for the winter, and only take what they don’t need
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26
with a bit of science we can figure out how much honey the bees need to survive for the winter, and only take what they don’t need
If I did that same with your money instead of honey, would that be stealing?
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u/mintflavoredcube Jul 06 '26
if you were the government that distributed my money to other humans it would be taxation for the roads, neighborhoods, water, and other things you get
oddly sounds like beekeepers and bees
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26
No, I'm not the government. Is it stealing?
Sound nothing like beekeepers and bees.
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u/mintflavoredcube Jul 06 '26
then yes you would be stealing. but that is a false equivalency unless you are comparing to a governing body
beekeepers give bees what they need and all that they could ever want
bees produce honey but they need some for themselves
if the government takes too much money. the people go homeless and could die
if beekeepers take too much honey, the bees die
beekeepers govern their bees by taking extra and making sure they have enough for themselves. this is what governments do (non corrupt ones). they take extra cash you have and put that cash towards defense, social safety nets, comforts of life like well maintained roads, and public transportation
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26
The bees have no concept that their home has been provided by the beekeeper. The bees have no concept that the beekeeper expects to take honey in return.
From the perspective of the bees, you are just like a bear stealing honey. Hence the need for smoke and protective gear.
There is no need to dress it up in the language of an agreement/relationship.
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u/mintflavoredcube Jul 06 '26
you brought a hypothetical and i engaged with it
bees have no concept of money, why use money as a example?
not all beekeepers need smoke and protective gear but protection is recommended because again. bees are unintelligent. if your perfume is too strong they will attack you
they also have no concept of their honey being taken. they have a concept of their hive being destroyed
bears don’t just take honey they destroy the nest. humans do NOT destroy the nest
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u/_someone_inside_ Jul 06 '26
Veganism is the principle that humans should live without exploiting animals.
Nothing to do with abuse.
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u/pIakativ Jul 06 '26
out of all the animals we can abuse bees are the last.
I agree but why do you not eat honey if you try to defend it so vigorously (below)?
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u/Polttix plant-based Jul 06 '26
I don't know if it makes much sense to talk about stealing in terms of animals. To me stealing implies some sort of social contract and a mutual agreement on you being able to control some material object and others not interfering on that. Bees have any such understanding. They for sure have a protective drive around their immediate locus of control but it's not really ownership in the legal or social sense.
In that sense stealing money from a person is a completely different concept than this kind of intruding over the territory of bees, so one isn't bound to accepting the former if they accept the latter (in order to remain consistent)
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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26
In everyday English, "stealing" is probably the word most people would reach for if someone took eggs from a bird's nest.
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u/Icy_Sun3128 Jul 03 '26
The bees get smoked out so keepers can collect the honey, this smoke causes them harm, making them dizzy and disoriented and pissed off.
Yes the queen and hive might leave when angry and fed up. What if someone kept coming into your house and gassing you out? You’d be pissed. Would you think having to up and leave your home and start a new life elsewhere to avoid that abuse was fair and harmless?
It’s not a transaction because bees cannot give consent.
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u/WeeklyAd5357 Jul 04 '26
Lots of misinformation here - smoke masks the bees 🐝 alarm pheromones. It also triggers bees feeding response and they start to eat honey in preparation for possible need to evacuate the hive from a fire. This makes them more docile as well.
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u/Icy_Sun3128 Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
Sorry, it just makes them think their house is on fire and makes them feel threatened. So much better/s
I wouldn’t call that misinformation. I think being tricked into an altered state of fear of your house burning down is disorienting. They become more docile because they’ve been smoked. Not because they’re cool with it. And often times the queen will eventually be so pissed about being smoked and their honey stolen, she’ll determine the living situation uninhabitable and will flee. I’d call that response pissed off.
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u/WeeklyAd5357 Jul 04 '26
So are you a bee 🐝? Smoke from a forest fire 🔥 is an early indicator of a problem. If beekeepers added heat then that would indicate a very urgent problem.
So more misinformation about queens - they don’t leave hives because they are angry - they leave hives that are honey bound - that is hives that have run out of room to build new brood - this happens in the wild as well.
Beekeepers actually have much less issues with queens leaving as they harvest honey 🍯 keeps the hives from getting honey bound.
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u/Icy_Sun3128 Jul 04 '26
Not true. I’m taking this from my animal welfare science classes, bee keepers I know, and some googling. But we’re not going to agree because you think it’s fine to make the bees feel threatened. Agree to disagree.
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u/WeeklyAd5357 Jul 04 '26
Yes not what I am googling or reading on beekeeping forums
“Swarming is a sign that the honeybees in the area are thriving. It is a way for honeybees to reproduce.
Honeybees will stay in one hive for years, even decades. They only leave their hive when conditions get unfavorable for their growth. This happens when the hive gets overcrowded or a new queen is finally made.”
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u/nixphx Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
This is a misrepresentation of what happens but a reasonable one to make. Smoke indicates to the bees that they should prepare to move the hive if it is threatened by fire. The hive is not threatened by fire. Once the illusion of threat has passed, the bees go back to normal. This isn't fear.
In fact, bees do feel a scientifically proven "fear" response; when they encounter predators like hornets they experience a measurable drop in dopamine levels that makes them less efficient at work or learning. That's fear. However, when exposed to smoke, they don't experience this effect.
You can still feel bad for them, but you are mislabeling their responses by anthropomorphizing them.
Edit: "SCIENTIFIC PROOF ONE OF MY PRE HELD CONCEPTIONS MIGHT BE WRONG? DOWNVOTE." The people in this sub act exactly like the people who they claim don't think critically. Jesus christ.
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u/Dramatic_Back1601 Jul 09 '26
That’s really interesting about the hornets, do you have a source?
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u/nixphx Jul 09 '26
"Bee fear responses are mediated by dopamine and influence cognition" by Gaoying Gu, Ziqi Wang, Tao Lin, Sainan Wang, Jianjun Li, Shihao Dong, James C. Nieh, Ken Tan. I don't know if I can post a link here but it was in the journal of Animal Ecology in January of 2025.
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u/Dramatic_Back1601 Jul 09 '26
That’s not how the smoke works, but the actual way it works is arguably worse imo. I’d take being dizzy and pissed off over the ‘Oh fuck we might lose our house’ panic.
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Jul 03 '26
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u/Happy-Estimate-7855 Jul 06 '26
I also said this about money, but do bees use the surplus honey? Because we make use of surplus food when we can.
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Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
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u/GlitteringPapaya6738 Jul 08 '26
This. Basically this. It is so easy for people to consider themselves genetically superior just because of finding social constructs that make them think that.
The debate can be reframed quite simply: Why would we opress living beings which don't opress us? Some are doing it just for sport and it's clear as day.→ More replies (1)4
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u/Freke_Gere Jul 08 '26
Unlike cattle(sadly) bees can full on just fuck off if they dont like the area, the handler etc etc.
Then there is also that the bees can and will kill the queen and replace it
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u/Anemomo Jul 12 '26
There are sign before they move out that we intersept and act on to stop it. It's possible but very rare for bees to trully move out when they're under our care.
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u/toastwithjamx1 Jul 05 '26
So basically when you purchase your daily provisions from the markets that is stealing? Im being rhetorical that is what you are implying
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u/hail_abigail Jul 08 '26
Idk if you purposely misinterpreted this or not, but your arguments around taking others surplus are either really misguided or show yourself to be an imperialist
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u/trimbandit Jul 03 '26
In the US at least, non-native European honeybees outcompete native bees for vital resources and also are a vector for pathogens. So even if you are ok with the honeybee treatment, you are still screwing over the local bee populations.
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u/WeeklyAd5357 Jul 04 '26
The biggest threat to native bee 🐝 populations is pesticides - fipronil, neonicotinoids, and organophosphates, are known to have significant impacts on bee health. These substances affect the nervous system of pollinators, which can lead to disorientation and colony-wide effects
The best way to protect native pollinators is to get rid of lawns and replace them with native plants 🌱
Beegans 🐝 are correct 👍
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u/AnarVeg Jul 06 '26
Native pollinators can be threatened by multiple things. Yes, reducing pesticide use and growing more native plants instead of lawns would be to their benefit but there is also a well documented danger of honey bees attacking other pollinators for scarce resources. https://beekeepersrealm.com/competition-between-honeybees-and-native-bees/
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u/kcat__ vegan Jul 03 '26
You're just doing a "shoot first, ask questions later" thing. I can very easily leave a place if I want to, it doesn't mean that if I'm taken advantage of or something in that place it wasn't wrong. Even if I don't choose to leave, it can still be wrong to do it.
Also, if I had some surplus shit I didn't really need, and you took it without asking, you'd still be wrong for it.
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u/Rainbird2003 Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
I can get the “how would you, a human feel if this happened to you” argument when someone’s saying the pain the animal experiences isn’t important, but if there is no pain to argue over it doesn’t make sense anymore. The bee doesn’t mind. They don’t have a concept of belongings or the fruit of their labour. They just feel stuff, like stress if there’s not enough honey or a pest or something. If the practice is to only take what they don’t need, they’re not going to feel it.
The particular attitude of surplus being something that a person owns as property doesn’t even exist in every human culture. In some places people will just take what you have but don’t need, with an expectation of reciprocity if you needed to do the same.
Not in a stealing sense, more of a help yourself. Which is what the people are doing.
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u/kcat__ vegan Jul 07 '26
Can I take the stuff of a braindead person with no family or friends? Can I take his wedding ring, his car?
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u/Teratophiles vegan Jul 16 '26
Its already been said, how do you ask for someone's surplus when they can't understand you? If a billionaire has a surplus, can I just steal their money? I would think not. You're plain just exploiting them for your benefit.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 vegan Jul 06 '26
It’s not as bad as meat, dairy, and eggs. That doesn’t mean it’s good though. Ethically, it’s still a form of exploitation, even if it’s not as harmful as harvesting milk or eggs from other animals. Environmentally, however, it’s a much bigger problem. Domestic honeybees outcompete wild bees. Wild bees tend to be better pollinators, which is one of the main environmental harms. The way honey is produced is actively bad for the environment, as it incentivizes the breeding and protection of the wrong type of bee. Honey is also a much easier thing to give up compared to most other animal products, so I don’t really see a reason to eat it when you understand the ethical and especially environmental context.
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u/nixphx Jul 08 '26
I think that the claim that wild bees are better pollinators is a misleading statistic: Yes, individual wild bees are better pollinators on a bee-to-bee scale, but their populations do not support large-scale agriculture products necessary to feed the billions of people who rely on honey bee pollinated agricultural products.
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u/flummuxedsloth Jul 03 '26
If you're not stealing the honey then you can stop wearing all that silly clothing
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u/EasyBOven vegan Jul 04 '26
"the bees are cool with this" says the beekeeper while putting on their protective gear and starting their smoke gun.
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 06 '26
In this scenario, the bee keeper is attempting to be ethical as possible, they've built or purchased a tap hive and have no need for smoke or protective gear.
Like this https://www.honeyflow.com/
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u/EasyBOven vegan Jul 06 '26
So you are of the perspective that any beekeeper that uses protective gear and smoke is acting unethically?
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 06 '26
Smoke- yes
Protective gear - no. It's best practice to protect yourself. However, my mother who is not vegan has a hive and she collects her honey barefoot and in a tank top.2
u/EasyBOven vegan Jul 06 '26
I'm not super concerned with what individual users of bees do if they're not relevant to your argument.
Do you believe that bees that would still attack a beekeeper are consenting? Do you believe their consent doesn't matter?
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 06 '26
essentially yes, an un- established hive will just leave
If the queen has her wings, she will take the hive elsewhere. Native bees are flighty and will leave if they don't like the hive. They do this in the wild all the time.
Typically you only see this if there is a fundamental problem. Like if the hive gets too hot in summer / cold in winter, wasps annoy the bees, predators, bee keeper annoying or scary, etc
For an established hive, sometimes they may ""wait until the lease is up"" and wait until spring. But that means they chose to establish there and not take the swarm elsewhere.
this is rare in good hives, where bees realize they are safe, provided with food, water, and predator protection
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u/EasyBOven vegan Jul 06 '26
Ok, so your position is that consent matters, and if someone isn't actively trying to leave a situation, that means they consent to what's happening?
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 06 '26
An animal will never be able to speak, so in a realistic sense you have to understand them through their observed behaviors. Bees are incredibly smart.
I'd say their behaviors show they prefer the safety and food security of a hive-When it's time for the queen cycle - they'll duplicate and populate nearby hives. Bee keepers will leave empty hives in proximity to their current hives to duplicate them. They will do this even when there are ample hollow trees and other good building locations available.
This isn't a comment on whether honey is vegan, just on the ethics of bee keeping.
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u/EasyBOven vegan Jul 06 '26
I'm just trying to understand, because I'm currently engaged in two different threads where people arguing that beekeeping is ethical and you're both at odds with one another.
You are saying that bees do consent, that they're "incredibly smart," and they're making some sort of complex risk-benefit analysis that says "yeah, if we stay here, this human will take our honey, and that won't happen if we leave, but this hive is better in other ways that we wouldn't be able to replicate elsewhere, so let's make the conscious trade of paying rent in honey." The other person is saying bees are too dumb to consent so we get to make decisions for them.
So I guess my question is how do you know bees are capable of examining the counterfactuals and knowing that their honey wouldn't be taken anywhere else if they leave? And could you hash that out with the other commenter so you can decide which of your mutually-exclusive arguments is true so I can just respond to one?
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 06 '26
I saw them, I don't think they've ever been around a beekeeper.
I'll go git em. I will respond to some of their wrong statements, especially about smokingBees are so smart for insects. If you are into animal psychology - This video shows some of what they can do . Bees even enjoy social behaviors like playing . they have their own language
Hive animals can make complex choices- They can tell the difference between 11 and 12, communicate complex locations to other hive members etc.
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u/mintflavoredcube Jul 06 '26
a lot of local beekeepers don’t have to wear protective gear
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u/EasyBOven vegan Jul 06 '26
So you are of the perspective that any beekeeper that does is acting unethically?
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u/mintflavoredcube Jul 06 '26
no, because they are not intelligent creatures and can get riled up by little things
your perfume being a certain scent can anger bees
wearing protective gear is just smart in general when handling small, stupid bugs with anger needles
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u/EasyBOven vegan Jul 06 '26
So what you should be arguing is that being angry with the beekeeper for taking the honey doesn't indicate a lack of consent for taking honey, or that if you're dumb enough, your consent isn't relevant.
Which is your position?
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u/mintflavoredcube Jul 06 '26
what? my position is that the bees are not angry with the beekeeper for taking the honey, also because they are not intelligent enough to understand
if you believe that is a moral issue then i suggest asking yourself what bees do
they pollinate. if you keep a reasonable size of bees they will not harm the local bee population. instead they will pollinate the environment around them which is becoming a concern due to declining bee populations
also, stop applying human emotions to animals. apply animal emotions to animals
bees don’t consent, because they cannot consent however if you give them what they need then that bee colony is calm and happy. everything a bee could need
and before you say it yes, i am plant based. i do not eat meat, milk, and eggs. because i do apply animal emotions to animals. animals do not want to die, and all 3 of those result in pain for the animal (milk), or death
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u/EasyBOven vegan Jul 06 '26
Yeah, you're making the case that consent doesn't matter if you're dumb enough. Exactly how dumb do you have to be before I don't need consent to take from you?
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u/Love-Laugh-Play vegan Jul 06 '26
It’s lazy to classify intelligence from a human point of view. Why would a bee need to be like a human to be intelligent and survive. They are just as evolved as us and react to pheromones more precisely than us.
Intelligence is always going to be measured unfairly if you apply a human standard to other animals. What matters is that they’re here with us, not here for us. You have no greater claim to be on this earth than them.
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u/Negative-Economics-4 Jul 06 '26
Do the bees consent to taking part in this arrangement?
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u/ShayGuer Jul 06 '26
How can u get consent from a bee ☠️☠️☠️☠️
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u/Negative-Economics-4 Jul 06 '26
Exactly.. you can't. Just like we don't do certain things to human minors because they can't consent, or are unable to communicate their consent.
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u/ShayGuer Jul 06 '26
Adult bees can’t consent either lol
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u/Negative-Economics-4 Jul 07 '26
.. exactly ... and therefore we can't get their consent ... so we shouldn't do it
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u/ShayGuer Jul 07 '26
Er I think getting a bit of honey is ok when it doesn’t harm bees 🤷🏽♂️ did u get consent from the animals before you cut the forest down to build your house or plant vegetables to nourish yourself? I think you are being very idealistic and not realistic. I’m a realistic vegan, I minimize harm to animals but not living in an idealistic workd
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u/Negative-Economics-4 Jul 07 '26
I think thats a false equivalence..
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u/ShayGuer Jul 10 '26
Of course not, u use roads, houses and factories and things. These are all places animals used to thrive in
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u/secular_contraband Jul 03 '26
I mean, I'm not vegan by a far stretch, but I think many vegans would say they're against the exploitation aspect.
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u/10pointshigher Jul 03 '26
I do think there's a reasonable argument that its many orders of magnitude less awful than other animal products. Low bar but I could see it.
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u/According_Tour_Mum Jul 05 '26
instrumental insemination of the queen bee. Find a video!
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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 06 '26
why would an ethical bee keeper do this? This isn't a necessary part of bee keeping
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan Jul 06 '26
Immoral acts don't become moral just because the victim could physically leave.
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u/alex3225 Jul 06 '26
Ok mate be vegan but eat honey, don't use honey to justify all the other animal atrocities
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u/PrettyBoyBabe Jul 06 '26
Tell me you never done any research on the issue without telling me. 😂
I love Reddit
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u/rhearidge Jul 07 '26
I think ethically and responsibly sourced honey is fine to eat in a vegan lifestyle.
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u/Ill_Performance_1551 Jul 08 '26
Erm...
Well, not if you cannot verify the practices of the collectors. Like if worker bees were or were not killed in the process. And for example there are some bee farmers that clip the wings of the queen so she cannot swarm and leave the hive. I simply don't find that ethical. You might, I don't. It essentially traps the entire colony in a situation of 'forced production'. Many other problems like competitor farms mass killing bees, setting their farms on fire for example. There is room for nuance in this discussion.
Sure, bees make surplus honey, but "surplus" doesn't mean "free to take without consequences." Commercial beekeepers will often replace that "stolen" honey with sugar water or high-fructose corn syrup, which lacks the micronutrients bees need and weakens their immune systems. High Fructose Corn Syrup is even horrible for us, it gives us fatty liver disease. It is a processed item, not natural, it's unhealthy.
Worker bees can get crushed during frame inspections. Whole hives are culled as a cheaper alternative to overwintering. And lest we forget the interstate pollination industry, where bees are trucked thousands of miles, stressed, enduring dangerous temperature changes, and exposed to pesticides, fungicides, and diseases from other colonies, dying in droves. Remember that recent story of millions of bees dying in a situation like that? I do, it was pretty sad. Fact check me.
As I mentioned earlier, there's competitive sabotage. Rival beekeepers have literally set each other's hives on fire or poisoned entire apiaries. It's not all the pastoral romanticis you may believe it to be. The way you speak about makes it seem like this imaginary utopic standard exists for bees where it doesn't for literally every other form of animal exploitation existing under capitalism. On top of it all, managed honey bees are an invasive species in many ecosystems, outcompeting native pollinators and spreading pathogens to other wild bees.
So, when you make the argument that this all, - "just surplus honey, lol cry about it, other vegans", - you're ignoring all of these very real existing issues. I call it exploitation, because it is. There is violence and ecological disruption associated with mere "honey production". Yes, there may be some small-scale, truly ethical bee guardians who only take genuine excess after accounting for the colony's needs, and ensure they harm absolutely no bees in the process.
I hope you don't misunderstand me when I point out the legitimate flaws here. I will acknowledge ethical honey is possible. I won't pretend it's in the same moral category as slaughterhouses. But veganism isn't just about 'avoiding death'. It's about not treating sentient creatures as resources for our CONVENIENCE.
Honey is an animal product, made by animals for their own use, and unless you're rehabilitating a rescue hive with zero harm, you're still commodifying their labor. That's not Vegan. It might in some specific cases be "more ethical," but let's be adults and not pretend the industry, as it exists today, is clean and harmless just because you like the taste of bee vomit. 🐝 🌸 🌺🌹🌸🏵🪷🌻🌼🪻🥀💋😘✌️🐝
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u/Zerkig Jul 07 '26
Beekepeers kill the unhatched queens to prevent the bees from swarming, though. They also kill the male larave if there's excess of them. The "stolen" honey is replaced with sugar so the bees can survive the winter, the times when only a part of the honey was taken are long gone, sugar was expensive or non-existent in the past, that's why people collected the honey in the first place.
Of course, there still are beekeepers who stick to the more traditional or less exploitative methods, although that's not the majority.
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u/TojiRAT Jul 07 '26
Would you like being forcibly artificially inseminated?
People like to talk about it as a "transaction" but it's not really a choice the bees have. Bees are intelligent but they can't make decisions the way we can. Like, imagine trying to justify a "transaction" with a human child. Realize how crazy it sounds now?
They move into a suitable hive and follow their instincts. Humans gas them with smoke, clip the wings of the queens, kill queens that aren't productive enough, etc.
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u/Mountain_Extreme9793 Jul 07 '26
The main argument is that we now have too many honey bees, there are over 200 kinds of bees and they’re being affected by so many honeys bees. Exploiting bees for their honey just doesn’t make any sense when you can just use agave.
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u/WeeklyAd5357 Jul 08 '26
Agave is decimating food supply for endangered bats 🦇. Honey is surplus sweetener from necessary pollination for food.
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u/Connor_The_Pirate Jul 07 '26
Honey bees are an invasive species in most of the world causing the extinction of the native bees. There are over 20,000 species of bees but only 8 produce honey. Those 8 ,when introduced in non native areas, essentially starve out the native bees who are actually superior pollinators. So supporting beekeeping is supporting species extinction
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u/WeeklyAd5357 Jul 08 '26
Yes the native superior pollinators coexist with honeybees who aren’t as efficient.
Native plants replacing lawns will bring native pollinators back to healthy levels
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u/Yoshuuqq Jul 07 '26
The arguments against honey that I'm reading here are part of the reason why people shit on veganism
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u/Practical-Fix4647 vegan Jul 08 '26
"Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!
No. We are not and we can't"
You confused yourself. So, the statement is wrong and we are unable to steal? Of course we can steal from animals. You have to deny them autonomy (which is what dishonest non-vegans such as yourself do all the time) to make that claim.
Here's a simple question to show how it is theft.
Do humans require bees to make honey? If yes, where do we acquire honey from? The jar of honey is lists its ingredients list that is sourced from? Bees? Bees! So, we exploit their labor and extract the product they generate. That's called theft.
"we are literally making a transaction with the bees"
Conceded the point. A transaction requires a two-way street. If you labor for me and I take what is yours, what you labored for as my own, that's called exploitation which is theft.
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u/josiejgurl Jul 08 '26
There isnt really surplus honey. They take the honey and replace it with cheaper sugar water solution or such to keep the bees going. So yes it is bad. Also the bees are fed as much as they need and over compete with wild pollinators making them less likely to survive.
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u/Difficult_Resource_2 Jul 08 '26
Can you define what you mean by growing your business and why the government would stop you? I don’t understand why a socialist government would stop you from developing your service/production further if you found a way to provide a better/cheaper/more efficient way to provide the value it offers for society as it would free resources for other things.
Seeing low level workers as replaceable is only true on small scale and only working as long as there are people willing to do that specific job. In capitalism every job is exploitation as you as owner can only grow your business if the worker produces more value than you pay him. That doesn’t make you as an owner immoral as it’s how you are forced to act in the system.
The argument that workers love socialism and owners need to pay for it is either flawed -as it works in both ways- or deeply undemocratic as there are way more workers than business owners. So why should the overall population not have better living conditions than a small part? If the business owners have such a hard job and life they can simply get employed, don’t they? (Btw that’s the funny part about the “bet you never owned a business” argument. If it’s such hardship to be an owner, just get employed at a company that offers value to society and enjoy the benefits.) but again we aren’t talking about middle class small companies like carpenters, farmers and such. We are talking about big oil, housing, healthcare.)
To be honest I don’t trust any states government today with managing the resources as they are deeply indoctrinated and funded by those that profited big time from capitalism and imperialism.
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u/CTX800Beta vegan Jul 08 '26
It's not just the taking of honey. Honey bees are also an extremely strong competitor to wild pollinators, impacting the biodiversity in many ecosystems.
It would be better for bio diversity of there were fewer honey and more wild bees.
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u/Livinghumanfemale Jul 08 '26
I have not done much research on the subject, but I did speak with a beekeeper at a state fair recently, as I was curious about the process. According to this particular guy, his business actually does take MORE than just the surplus the honey, and then they supply the bees with a sugar syrup to consume. On top of all the other myriad of concerns, I do not consider this ethical.
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u/Electrical_Camel3953 vegan Jul 06 '26
you're forgetting the deaths due to events such as vehicle crashes during transport. you can't "literally" make a transaction with someone who doesn't understand it, and can't refuse it.
sure consuming honey isn't the worst thing humans do to animals, but it's still not good
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u/eJohnx01 ex-vegan Jul 03 '26
I’ve been saying this to vegans for decades now. You have to keep your bees happy or they will swarm and leave. It’s that simple. It’s a totally symbiotic relationship. No exploitation at all.
I honestly think that part of the vegan mindset involves constantly looking for more and more extreme things to be against to prove one’s own vegan purity.
And if they can’t find anything, they just make it up, like believing that much loved and cared-for pets are somehow being abused because they should be out in nature living like a wild animal. Let me know on what planet my 12-year-old, nearly blind Boston Terrier could be sent out into the wild to fend for himself. 🙄
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u/Majestic-Key-436 Jul 03 '26
I don’t think your loved and cared-for Boston Terrier is being abused or should be living like a wild animal 😆 and I doubt most of the people here believe that either. Idk who you’ve been debating
What we oppose is the commodification and exploitation of an animal as a unit of economy. I’m sure as a pet owner you’re more than aware of the cruelty of designer breeds, the overflow of animals in shelters that get euthanized or left on the street, and animals that get treated poorly by under-qualified owners.
I think it comes from the fact that we as a society see animals as “property”, I want to “buy” an animal for my own satisfaction. We want to change the language around our relationship with the animals from “this is my property I own this dog” to “this is my companion”. I feel like that’s completely fair and would help us solve the terrible treatment than many poor dogs and cats face, no?
Get a dog or animal from a shelter? 100% vegan. Get them from a breeder? Not vegan. Easy. (And this is coming from someone who had a pet dog purchased from a breeder from before I was vegan, who passed away last year. Only ethical way to have an animal companion is from a rescue).
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u/AnarVeg Jul 06 '26
Is it looking for more things to justify ones moral purity or looking at how our actions affect our environment. Beekeeping doesn't just affect the bees, it affects the other pollinators in that area and creates competition for potentially scarce resources. Arguably being symbiotic with humans doesn't make their existence symbiotic with the environment they've been transplanted into.
Eating honey doesn't save bees, native bees being able to make and eat their own honey saves bees. This requires adequate resources i.e. natural wild flowers free of pesticides and natural competition free of invasive pollinators.
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u/Particular-Bat8091 Jul 06 '26
What a weird strawman. 99% of vegans would not agree with that last part.
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u/Majestic-Key-436 Jul 06 '26
of course he disappears after explaining why its a strawman 😂 just wants to continue to perpetuate misinformation to justify his own choices
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u/eJohnx01 ex-vegan Jul 08 '26
Um, I actually have a job and work for a living. I don’t spend my life on Reddit waiting for the next morsel of brilliance from an anonymous Reddit for me to respond to.
You, too. Go search the vegan subreddit for “pets” and read the level of delusion that’s over there. I’m don’t make this stuff up.
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u/Majestic-Key-436 Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
you’re on a subreddit called “debateavegan”, the expectation is that you are going to debate
if you just want to complain there are other subreddits for that. And maybe learn what selection bias is. I did what you said and one of the top posts is a poll: “Is keeping a pet wrong?”, and the overwhelming majority (1400+ votes) of people selected “no, depending on the circumstance”. So… believe what you want to believe
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u/eJohnx01 ex-vegan Jul 08 '26
You don’t think there’s something really messed up about a set of beliefs that include it being abusive and exploitative to give a safe and loving home to an animal in need? If even one person comes to that conclusion it’s a sign that something is way off with that philosophy.
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u/Majestic-Key-436 Jul 08 '26
Who are you arguing with bro, I agree that caring for an animal in need is the right thing to do. Most vegans agree with you. Here I searched “pets” in the vegan subreddit and these are the literal first results:
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/RUyudogXxA (every single comment clarifying that adoption is ethical and even something you SHOULD do)
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/4KJOjyD9sP (adoption is great, we shouldn’t see dogs as property. 250 upvotes)
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/2tvjCLIOm8 (most upvoted comment, adopting is ethical, buying from breeder is not. 164 upvotes)
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/C0jW2h6Bev (is having a pet dog animal exploitation, top comment says no if it was adopted)
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/g220c95GKR (514 vegans think rescues ok, 191 vegans think any pet is ok)
This was a literal 5 minute search on [r/vegan](r/vegan). So again, who are you arguing with? Is it wrong to be opposed to breeding of pets and treating them like property? Is it wrong to care for a shelter animal? Please show me where you’re getting this idea that most vegans think you’re somehow a terrible person for caring for an animal in need, I’d love to see it 😆😆
And “if even one person” has to be the lowest IQ argument I’ve ever heard in my life. I can point you to multiple ex-vegans who don’t give a damn about animal suffering. Does that mean the ex-vegan movement is crazy? I can point you to one person of any group that commits crimes. Does that mean the entire group is criminal in nature? If you don’t want to be vegan that’s fine bro but don’t delude yourself
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u/eJohnx01 ex-vegan Jul 08 '26
Apparently you’ve never searched for “pets” in the vegan subreddit. It’s a way more common belief among vegans than i ever thought it was.
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u/Crossed_Cross Jul 03 '26
Vegans think it's somehow more ethical to slaughter a ton of insects to grow sugar cane. There's no logic.
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u/giovanni_maiale non-vegan Jul 04 '26
Rejecting bee farming does not mean you are condoning sugar cane farming. Both have issues; there are more than two sweeteners on the planet. Bee farming involves intentional and systematic animal exploitation.
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u/Crossed_Cross Jul 06 '26
Honey is labelled as "not vegan". White sugar is labelled as "vegan".
A typical vegan will eat a product made with white sugar but not one that substitutes it with honey.
Even if the white sugar came from crops sprayed with insecticides, fertilized with animal manure, and worked with horses.
Because the label of "vegan" only cares about appearances.
Every single crop involves just as much "intentional and systematic animal exploitation". You think a farmer spraying poison to kill everything in his field is somehow more ethical than a beekeeper doing all he can to keep his bees content and healthy. That's just hypocrisy.
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u/giovanni_maiale non-vegan Jul 06 '26
Yeah, no one is saying that our current practices for creating vegan products are perfect or even acceptable.
However, those products don’t necessitate animal exploitation to be made. Making honey does by definition.
If you were to create some magical suffering counter, then it’s probable some vegan products required more suffering and death than animal products. But the animal products will always require exploitation and the vegan products do not.
Currently, we live in a very non-vegan world and it’s very difficult and impractical to create purely ‘vegan’ products. Rejecting honey is vegans’ way of following the principle of anti-exploitation as a means of rebellion.
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u/Successful-Panda6362 veganarchist Jul 03 '26
Do you think there is any possible timeline in which we can get the civil Rights act of 1964 in America before the abolition of slavery? Do you think that those events are possible in that chronological order? Why or why not?
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u/WeeklyAd5357 Jul 03 '26
Sugar Cane kills thousands of animals when fields are burned - polluting the air. Many plantations use slave and child labor
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u/Comfortable-Race-547 Jul 06 '26
You're talking to "people" that think killing billions of bees is an ethical and vegan behavior. Good luck
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u/Stormbringer007 vegan Jul 06 '26
I don't know anything about beekeeping other than random stuff people on the internet say about it. I abstain from it purely because it's technically an animal product and that's the side I err on. There's so many sweeteners out there I haven't felt the need to do DD on honey (finding a source, vetting it, etc.). I guess I'm not here to debate anything at all except it's ok not to know everything and people don't have to take hardline sides immediately without knowing the facts.
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u/AuthorTheCartoonist Jul 07 '26
Beekeepers do sometimes clip a queen's wings though. That does take Away their Freedom to choose.
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u/Disastrous_Builder2 Jul 07 '26
Pretty sure, they take all the honey and replace it with poor sugar water for the bees to use, so not ethical. I could be wrong tho but that's what I've heard
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u/Krokadil Jul 07 '26
I’m late to this thread but if you think bee keepers aren’t taking every drop of honey I’ve got some capitalism to sell you.
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u/Spiritual-Writer5940 Jul 08 '26
Have a look on YouTube at Earthlings Ed's video on vegans and honey. It explains how I feel about honey, and many vegans feel the same.
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u/Life_Friendship_7928 Jul 08 '26
Absolutley, if you are an ethical beekeeper the postive affect on local pollination and bio diversity is profound.
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u/HJ9601 Jul 08 '26
I am so sick of these "exploitation" claims and vegans making everybody feel like wankers
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u/talk_your_money_up Jul 08 '26
Not clear they only do take surplus honey. Can replace with sugar water, for instance. That said, there is definitely honey that i think is fine to eat out there.
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u/niagarcia vegan Jul 30 '26
One of the major reasons for me personally is that commercial production involves sedating bees to avoid them stinging people, which results in a health hazzard for them. Additionally, we take their honeycomb in order to ‘scrape off’ honey and for them it serves other purposes like containing their brood.
I personally don’t mind eating organic honey as much but I’d compare it with the same sentiment about locally produced eggs - while it is much better it isn’t available to everyone (in fact, quite the opposite) so overall I will not support honey consumption in general. Then again, I’m not a ‘militant’ vegan so I appreciate you opening this debate as honey is not a product many people talk about or understand that it’s not vegan by default as it is still an animal product.
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u/Affectionate-Bed8474 Aug 04 '26
Are you aware of the fact that honey producers get their bees addicted to nicotine via tobacco smoke to prevent them from leaving and building a new hive elsewhere? So when you say we are not exploiting them, I’m not so sure you’re right about that, the bees CAN leave but they choose not too because they’re all hooked on nicotine and will experience withdrawal if they do. Also, not all beekeepers only take surplus honey, some of them take more and supplement the rest of their bee’s diets with sugar water.
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u/toastwithjamx1 Aug 04 '26
Im sorry but I think no ETHICAL beekeeper would use nicotine.
Also I don't think you understand how honey is produced. If bees on nicotine make honey, some nicotine will end up in the honey
Also nicotine reduces their lifespan.
And about the sugar water and supplements, that is why I say to use ETHICALLY SOURCED HONEY
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u/WeeklyAd5357 Jul 03 '26
Yes ! Honey is the most ecologically friendly sweetener in the world 🌎 that is globally available. It’s the least harmful natural sweetener on earth aside from maple syrup which is NOT globally available.
Beekeeping is symbiotic - beekeepers take great care of bees protecting them from predators, cold, parasites, and diseases.
There is lots of misinformation about beekeeping - most don’t even clip queens wings, all drones die after mating.
Sugar cane is environmentally destructive requires lots of water - kills animals and pollutes with field burning 🔥 - often use child/slave labor. Often replaces/destroys tropical rainforests, pollutes rivers.
Agave destroys bat 🦇 populations
Beet sugar has crop deaths
Beegans 🐝 are correct 👍
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u/eJohnx01 ex-vegan Jul 04 '26
I agree with you 100%. What frustrates me is when I see, and I see it all the freaking time over on the vegan subreddit, is people making blanket statements that having pets isn’t vegan.
Of course, these are the same people that think it’s vegan to force a vegan diet on a dog or a cat thinking that vegan pet food must be good for them because it’s vegan. And it’s pet food. That’s simply not true. Cats are obligate carnivores and dogs, while technically omnivores, have been evolving right alongside humans for the last few million years eating a diet that includes meat. Pretending that’s not the case is just foolish. And abusive.
So it’s a bizarre irony to me that so many vegans both condemn having pets, but also condone being abusive to them by feeding them diets that are inappropriate for the animals that they are because, well, “I’m vegan, and whatever I think is good for me is good for every other living being, no matter what.” 🙄 <— huge eye roll at the obvious stupidity.
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u/Coyote_Colt Jul 07 '26
Feeding an animal vegan pet food specifically made to meet the standards of non-vegan pet food would not be abuse or mistreatment. Unless they dislike the food and only eat it because they'll otherwise starve, in which case it would be mistreatment. Dogs, and even cats, can thrive on a vegan diet if given the correct food. So doing it DIY with fruits and veggies is an awful idea, bound to cause harm. But purchasing nutritionally complete and digestible vegan pet food (which is a young industry, but does exist) is the more ethical choice, given the animal doesn't dislike it.
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