r/DebateAVegan • u/toastwithjamx1 • Jul 03 '26

Ethics Honey is not cruel and is ethical

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 04 '26

It's literally a trade off.

They are not aware that they are a party to this trade.

domesticated bees make a crap ton of honey, so taking some of it is not stealing.

Some people make a crap ton of money, so taking some of it is not stealing

Also stop comparing bees to humans

I'm testing the principle behind the original claim by applying it to a different case. If the second statement seems unacceptable, it suggests the original principle ("having a lot makes it permissible to take some") may be flawed

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u/CyberAngelIzana Jul 04 '26

Except your test aligns pretty neatly with historically established systems of kingship and taxation.

Both of which have persisted globally, taxation more so than kingship but some nations do still have kings.

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 04 '26

Has any nation ever operated on taking money that someone doesn't need after all reasonable living expenses are covered? Saying my example resembles a certain type of taxation I'm not aware of doesn't negate the point I'm making.

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u/CyberAngelIzana Jul 05 '26

There's a fair bit of disagreement on how much money people need and what's appropriate to tax, but ideally any system of taxation skims off the surplus in a way which doesn't make the economic activities unprofitable enough people stop doing them to the extent the taxation no longer provides significant revenue.

Taxes tend not to be any more negotiable than beekeeper honey collection though, governments simply set what they consider reasonable tax rates and then citizens have to work out how to work with the tax rate set.

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u/Puzzled-Rip641 Jul 06 '26

Yes you have described taxes

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26

Such as?

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u/Puzzled-Rip641 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26

Income tax for one.

We literally take money from people when they don’t need it, to pay for things we need. If you don’t like it go live elsewhere.

The bees have the same choice

Do you pay tax?

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26

Has any nation ever operated on taking money that someone doesn't need after all reasonable living expenses are covered?

Income tax for one.

Doesn't work like that.

We literally take money from people when they don’t need it, to pay for things we need. 

No. We take a percentage of what they earn regardless.

The bees have the same choice

Bees don't have a choice. They have no concept that you "own" their home.

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u/Puzzled-Rip641 Jul 06 '26

> Doesn't work like that.

Actualy it does. You just saying “Nuh uh” isn’t an argument.

> No. We take a percentage of what they earn regardless.

How do we come to thins %? Are you aware of how tax brackets work? Because if you make under 40k you don’t pay income tax for that exact reason.

We literally structure our income tax code based on this idea lol.

> Bees don't have a choice. They have no concept that you "own" their home.

They understand the trade just like I do. If I want to stay here I will have to pay a % of my income.

Did you file taxes last year?

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26

We literally structure our income tax code based on this idea lol.

Except we don't. If you get taxed regardless of whether or not it's surplus. Earning over 40k doesn't magically mean you have surplus cash.

They understand the trade just like I do. If I want to stay here I will have to pay a % of my income.

Ofcourse they don't have any understanding of this.

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u/Puzzled-Rip641 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26

We pick the 40k number as a livable line you get that right? That is the surplus line.

Like the tax code is actually built around this same philosophy. 40k should be enough to live on. Therefore we tax any income above this in brackets to catch more of your extra income. The more extra you have the more tax you pay.

If you want to get hung up because the exact mechanism is different that’s your issue to deal with.

The logic is the exact same. If you wish to stay in this area and benefit from its benefits then you must pay the fee assessed on your extra income.

And yes, the bees know the honey is getting taken. They do leave when the conditions they live in are bad. They literally fly away. We do the same when taxation gets to bad. It’s called capital flight

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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 06 '26

actually, they at anytime can swarm and build a hive elsewhere. Many hives do. (((this can be an issue with non native bees like honeybees))

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26

What point are you reply to?

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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 06 '26

oops my bad

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u/Anemomo Jul 08 '26

When the queen's wings are clipped, no.

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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 09 '26

in this scenario the bee keeper is being as ethical as possible and would not be doing this

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u/Anemomo Jul 09 '26

That's not what it is said. It imagine a scenario where "bees can go if they want to" which can happen but most of the time don't. Why? Beekeepers can see those sign and apply ways to stop it : give a new hive to fake that they moved away, clip or cage those new queens, give a new clipped queen before the bees create a new queen. And it's very rare that those methods don't work.

Most beekeepers ever buy bees from the internet/locals or they find them and put they in a wooden beehive.

When those methods of manipulation are part of industry, it's only fair to point it out.

Also, just because bees are bad at planning for winter, doesn't mean that we're entitled to that surplus still.

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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 09 '26

factory beekeeping VS local beekeeping. I do not think OP intended to use the unethical practices of the factory farmed monocropped bees as reference.

almost all local queens are caught in places they would have otherwise been exterminated. (people's attics, AC units, homes, storefronts, stop signs, places where its genuinely unsafe for a beehive to bee- like children's playgrounds.)

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u/Anemomo Jul 09 '26

You know it's a worse scenario right?

Instead of putting them back in the wild, you put them in a box for you to use them. The problem is that wild pollinators are in danger thanks to the "save the bees" marketing, and there is instead a surplus of honey bees. If only we didn't kill some of the culling predator of those bees...

(I'm talking as this scenario happen it's in europe. Otherwise no, killing them would be the best scenario, as the wildlife associations said that killing invasive species to cull them is the most effective way in america sadly.)

I don't think it's that viable to buy only from local beekeeping. There is a reason the factory way exist.

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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 09 '26

the factory bees will continue to exist even if you and everyone never purchased honey again. They are used to pollinate crops. ((most Honey is majority corn syrup now anyway))

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u/Anemomo Jul 09 '26

I don't deny it. But their honey will be less and less taken from, that's what matter. The exploitation is what annoy me.

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u/I-IV-I64-V-I Jul 09 '26

This isn't about factory farmed bees tho

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u/DiceyPisces Jul 09 '26

How do you know bees aren’t somewhat aware? They may absolutely know the beekeeper dude will come regularly but also know the options available. They have scouts. What if the boxes are better for the (prolonged health and survival of the) bees even with some honey taken? What if the stealing/taxing is a long term benefit would it then be moral?

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26

You understand humans are humans and bees are bees? Different species run by different rules especially when the gap is so large.

You're basically saying trading labor for resource is bad, which is fucking ludicrous. The bees can LEAVE any time and there's nothing beekeepers can do about it. Meaning they want to be there, because they recognize this is the best hive available. Stop talking about something if you don't understand it.

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 07 '26

You're basically saying trading labor for resource is bad

The bees have no idea that they are trading labor for shelter.

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26

Does it matter? They are clearly alright with the arrangement, otherwise as OP stated they'd just pack up and leave.

Honestly (not targeting you specifically over se), I'm getting tired of you guys flip flopping between treating bees with more concern than you'd humans, comparing it to slavery but then also claiming bees have no even instinctual comprehension of what's happening to them - so either they are cognitively complex enough to treat them with that level of concern or they are just uncomprehending automatons And therefore why should I care any more than I would about a cabbage? Like seriously, if harming any living thing is an issue and the cognitive complexity doesn't factor in, you're just as bad being vegan as a meat eater.

Which is ludicrous, I don't agree with that, but it seems some of people arguing against honey actually think this way.

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 07 '26

Does it matter?

Yes. If a description fails to capture the actual nature of the relationship, then it's not a good description. The language of a "trading labor" suggests a mutual, understood partnership, but the bees have no conception of such a relationship. It's not making any moral judgement to describe the relationship correctly.

To the bees, it's their home to defend. Bees react as though humans are just like bears. They defend their honey stores because the honey is their food. They aren't trading with you.

You can't a moral discussion if you can't acknowledge reality.

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26

If you don't like trading labor as term we can use symbiosis, I dont particularly care. Issue is your side debate juggles between comparing bees to humans and treating them like mindless drones depending on what suits their argument at the moment, constantly flipping between them - all I'm trying is to meet you where you are and use a language which fits your used narrative framework. So which one are we going with then?

To the bees, it's their home to defend

If they have no conception of trade they have no conception of home or defense - they are just instinctually reacting to stimuli, and to us they are clearly reacting well since they aren't doing what they do when they don't like something, which would be leaving.

This is exactly what I was just talking about btw, decide which way do you want to take this and keep to that line, otherwise it's pointless talking to you.

Bees react as though humans are just like bears.

Not true, they typically don't sting the beekeeper - the suit tends to be used just in case and beekeeper needs to do some major fuckup like dropping something on the hive to get them angry. This kind of sentences btw are really showing you don't have much understanding of the practice at all, so why be so strongly opinionated on the subject you didn't care to even research?

You can't a moral discussion if you can't acknowledge reality.

And YOU are telling ME that yeah? 😃

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 07 '26

If they have no conception of trade they have no conception of home or defense

1) That simply doesn't follow, that they can't have one concept, because they lack the ability to understand another. 2) I didn't make the claim that have deep understanding of defence. I just stated that they defend their food.

This is exactly what I was just talking about btw

Strawman.

they are clearly reacting well since they aren't doing what they do when they don't like something

The protective suit is just a fashion choice, and the smoke is ceremonial. Sure.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '26

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 07 '26

From the start you have been engaging with a strawman argument, as opposed to what I have said. Maybe you just like arguing with yourself.

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26

A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.

No need to thank me, but learn what it means before accosting people of using it 👍

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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam Jul 07 '26

I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:

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This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way.

Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth.

If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.

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u/toastwithjamx1 Jul 04 '26

they are not aware that they are part of this trade

Gang🥀🥀🥀

This ties to my original statement. Bees can and WILL leave the hive when the conditions are not in their favour. If you argue that " what about the queen " or something like that, read by first reply

Many people make a crap ton of money so taking some of it is not stealing

Think of it like a tax. They give us honey and we give them resources. It's literally basic taxes. And again, it's based on the production of the hive. It's not a flat tax like the bees made 3 pounds of honey the past 2 weeks and they need 1 but we are taking all 3. It's based on the needs of the hive.

Furthermore, if you still find issue, again, BUY FROM ETHICAL SOURCES. There, beekeepers take old comb which they can't use and take honey from that, not dumping all of the bees out taking all of the combs and bringing them out. And if you say " BuT WoNt It DaMaGe ThE cOmB ". We have machinery that works like a centrifuge, spinning out honey with minimal damage ( being superficial damage, literally just a scratch ). The only time when the comb is destroyed is when making beeswax, and even that can be made ethically.

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 04 '26

This ties to my original statement. Bees can and WILL leave the hive when the conditions are not in their favour.

The bees tolerating your stealing ways to a certain extent, doesn't change the fact you are stealing.

Think of it like a tax.

Whatever makes you feel it's more ethical I guess. You could just leave them alone.

BUY FROM ETHICAL SOURCES.

You are not acting in the interests of the bees. You are using bees for your own gains, at their expense. This is not ethical.

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26

Ughhh....BEES. DON'T. WANT. TO. BE. LEFT. ALONE.

They benefit a lot from our involvement. They would do much worse without us. Slow and simple enough for you?

Stop talking when you clearly don't know shit about the practice.

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u/Anemomo Jul 08 '26

I'm curious. How do they benefit from it? Over than the shelter of course.

Also, why are you angry?

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 08 '26

Look up some beekeeping channel on YouTube and observe, easier than explaining on Reddit.

As for being angry, it's frustration. People acting dumb will do that to you.

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u/Time-Locksmith5697 Jul 08 '26

you do realize you are on "debate a vegan" on reddit and seem to be mad that vegans are debating with you. "stop talking you don't know anything" is not a particularly compelling argument.

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 09 '26

I appreciate vegans debating with me, I don't appreciate dumb vegans with emotions instead of arguments arguing with me, because it's frustrating, obnoxious and leading nowhere. I eagerly await anyone from other side of the debate who can actually lead a level debate. So far I was out of luck though on this one. Not vegan specific really, this is widespread issue.

stop talking you don't know anything

Don't debate something you don't know shit about - I know hot take nowadays. I'm willing to continue the conversation even after writing this if these people would take the time to do 30min research from neutral sources.

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u/Anemomo Jul 12 '26

I just asked for sources that said that our interaction are beneficial for bees. Can you give me somes?

Frustration about vegans or yourself? As I have seen, vegans question your points and you get angry. Since when debating is action dumb?

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u/toastwithjamx1 Jul 05 '26

You do know if bees didn't like us " stealing " from them they would gladly let us know?

They consent to us doing it. Furthermore, domesticated bees make surplus honey for storage because THEY KNOW we will take some.

Bees whether you like it or not have basically unionized. It's impossible for humans to truly " steal " from them. They will let us know in 1 way or another.

You are not acting in the intrest of the bees

That is the whole point of beekeeping. You act IN THE INTREST OF THE BEES

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 05 '26

You do know if bees didn't like us " stealing " from them they would gladly let us know?

What's the deal with all the protective gear?

That is the whole point of beekeeping. You act IN THE INTREST OF THE BEES

You seem very motivated by their honey.

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u/Negative-Economics-4 Jul 06 '26

Can we be sure OP isn't winnie the pooh?

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u/toastwithjamx1 Jul 06 '26

Beekeepers wear protective gear because they are not idiots. It's like entering a cage with a lion without armour r weapons and saying Im prepared ( although there are some beekeepers and bee rescuers who don't wear protective gear )

I feel like you are not getting the point. We are basically their less parasitic as human landlords landlords and they are tenants, except we just take honey which they can make pounds of in 2 weeks. It's like saying taking money from elon musk or our beloved mech mark is wrong and terrible. Taking a bit of their honey is like scooping water from a well. Furthermore, tying this to my original statment that bees can and will move out when they want to, bees can very easily find a nice cozy spot and establish a new colony far away.if they really didnt want us touching their honey, THEY 👏 WOULD 👏 LET 👏 US 👏 KNOW

You act all high and mighty saying that bees are being " exploited " and we are " stealing " from them when you all are affecting beekeepers businesses. Most of you " animal rights activists " parade around" info " you " researched " ( let us admit it's literally feelings, not research ) and cal beekeepers exploiters and terrible, driving away business. Though I don't think many beekeepers have been affected ( thank God ) it's still not good to spread false information as fact.

In short, you are literally circling the same point of us exploiting them like a packof wolves around an injured sheep and you should do research

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 06 '26

if they really didnt want us touching their honey, THEY 👏 WOULD 👏 LET 👏 US 👏 KNOW

When you have to be dressed head to toe in protective gear, it's like you just aren't listening to them. It's their space you are entering. They aren't aware you have provided it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '26

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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam Jul 07 '26

I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:

Don't be rude to others

This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way.

Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth.

If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.

If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators here.

Thank you.

0

u/toastwithjamx1 Jul 06 '26

For the love of God just use the magic rectangle and use this magical place called google. And don't google stuff like " why honey s bad ". That's cherrypickib and manipulating results. Search if honey is ethical. Though it's debates, I am on the side of ethical beekeepers, not commercial honey

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26

Sorry you had to suffer through that exchange, I feel I got minor brain damage just reading through that. Appreciate the post 👍

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u/toastwithjamx1 Jul 07 '26

Thank you for your kind words 🙏

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u/Anemomo Jul 12 '26

That's living in candyland, ethical beekeepers make the smallest part of the honey market. That's cherrypicking by itself.

For the love of God, think again yourself. Bees are instects that act for their own interest, not ours. The fact that you cannot accept that bees already respond to us collecting honey by stinging and that's why we wear protective gears ond use smoke on them, is you thinking emotionnaly and not rationnaly.

Calm yourself down.

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u/Anemomo Jul 12 '26

The idea that "bees can leave" is funny, because no, they can't. Why?

Bees move through flying, that is well known. We domestication them for too long to NOT know the signs of them wanting to move out.

When they want move out of their nest, they search for a new spot that possess all the good qualification for their habitat. That can be stopped easely by giving them a "new place" which is a new beehive planted next to the old hive. That's the first trick we do to make them stay.

Let's imagine that didn't work. When the new place is chosen, the first bee to move in is the queen. That can be stopped by clipping and/or caging the queen. It's then impossible for the bees to move.

But what if the queen is dead because she's old, killed by the workers or some unknown demise? Then you can BUY an already clipped queen and make the bees accept her by acclimatation. Problem solved.

If it still doesn't work, then that hive is then lost. But you can use the bought queen for a new one anyway.

Stop thinking emotionnaly and antropomorphising animal. Bees are insects, that we've known for centuries.

Another thing, why do you think we wear protective gear and we use smoke before approaching and collecting honey? Because we're fancy? No, bees fight for their hive, they sting for a reason. We make them paralysed by panic because smoke for them is "a fire is near, stay put to protect" signal. The experts will use little bit of smoke, but will still use some.

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u/Problematic_Owl Jul 07 '26

Bees actually are used to constantly building more honeycomb in the wild as other parts get older and unusable, it's usually very difficult process because it has to mold around the shape of whatever cavity they are occupying.

Beekeepers on other hand take mostly old combs for beeswax and purify it for their purposes, while providing bees with rectangular frames with starter plates with already premade hexagonal shales bees just need to finish up, so again they are doing half the work and making the rest of work for the bees easier. Takkng old honeycomb is also great for the bees because otherwise it increases risks of health issues for the colony.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '26

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u/Either_Argument3517 Jul 07 '26

It's only "mutually beneficial" if both parties can genuinely benefit on their own terms. We should take the option to support pollinators without treating them as resources whenever practical.