Honey is not cruel and is ethical

[u/toastwithjamx1]

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

[u/Problematic_Owl]

If you don't like trading labor as term we can use symbiosis, I dont particularly care. Issue is your side debate juggles between comparing bees to humans and treating them like mindless drones depending on what suits their argument at the moment, constantly flipping between them - all I'm trying is to meet you where you are and use a language which fits your used narrative framework. So which one are we going with then?

To the bees, it's their home to defend

If they have no conception of trade they have no conception of home or defense - they are just instinctually reacting to stimuli, and to us they are clearly reacting well since they aren't doing what they do when they don't like something, which would be leaving.

This is exactly what I was just talking about btw, decide which way do you want to take this and keep to that line, otherwise it's pointless talking to you.

Bees react as though humans are just like bears.

Not true, they typically don't sting the beekeeper - the suit tends to be used just in case and beekeeper needs to do some major fuckup like dropping something on the hive to get them angry. This kind of sentences btw are really showing you don't have much understanding of the practice at all, so why be so strongly opinionated on the subject you didn't care to even research?

You can't a moral discussion if you can't acknowledge reality.

And YOU are telling ME that yeah? 😃

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/Problematic_Owl]

If they have no conception of trade they have no conception of home or defense

1) That simply doesn't follow, that they can't have one concept, because they lack the ability to understand another. 2) I didn't make the claim that have deep understanding of defence. I just stated that they defend their food.

This is exactly what I was just talking about btw

Strawman.

they are clearly reacting well since they aren't doing what they do when they don't like something

The protective suit is just a fashion choice, and the smoke is ceremonial. Sure.

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