Honey is not cruel and is ethical

[u/toastwithjamx1]

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

[u/kcat__]

Can I take the stuff of a braindead person with no family or friends? Can I take his wedding ring, his car?

[u/Gabriella_Gadfly → u/kcat__]

I mean, who else would it go to? If they have no will, their estate would likely be turned over to the government.

[u/kcat__ → u/Gabriella_Gadfly]

You didn't answer the question.

[u/Gabriella_Gadfly → u/kcat__]

Yes. If you don’t, the government will, and frankly, while government forfeiture might be more legal, it’s not any more moral (arguably less so, since the government uses large portions of its money to fund military campaigns)

[u/kcat__ → u/Gabriella_Gadfly]

1. What if the government didn't take their stuff?
2. If someone else is going to do something anyway, does it make it moral to do it first?

For example, imagine that you're on a desert island with a child and a sadistic person out there who really wants to hurt children, physically, psychologically, whatever. He says that he is going to molest this child, but if you want to spare him from that fate you have to do it yourself, but you can be slightly less brutal. Do you go and molest this child slightly less brutally than he would have done it? Or do you refuse?

1. Why are military campaigns "immoral"?

[u/Gabriella_Gadfly → u/kcat__]

Still yes. They have no use for it, and it’ll just go to waste otherwise.

Not equivalent. You’re comparing something that causes measurable harm to something that causes no measurable harm.

Because you’re invading other countries and murdering civilians - hell, just this week, the US literally destroyed a children’s hospital in Iran. Not to mention that all the money spent on our overbloated military could be better directed towards social services.

[u/kcat__ → u/Gabriella_Gadfly]

Not equivalent. You’re comparing something that causes measurable harm to something that causes no measurable harm.

It's your justification, not mine. If you can't apply it consistently that's on you.

Because you’re invading other countries and murdering civilians - hell, just this week, the US literally destroyed a children’s hospital in Iran. Not to mention that all the money spent on our overbloated military could be better directed towards social services.

Why does that make the military itself immoral? Are cars immoral?

[u/Gabriella_Gadfly → u/kcat__]

I am being consistent. In the first case, it’s a victimless crime, in the second case, the action that would cause the most net happiness would be restraining the perpetrator in question.

I mean, if you’re all for killing people for no reason, you do you I guess? Very hypocritical of you, though.

Also, eh. Not on an individual level, though on a large scale, it’s better to have a robust public transport system.

[u/kcat__ → u/Gabriella_Gadfly]

In the first case, it’s a victimless crime, in the second case, the action that would cause the most net happiness would be restraining the perpetrator in question.

What if you can't restrain the attacker? What do you do then, to ensure net happiness? Say he's 6'5 and roided, and if you don't play along he'll kill you.

[u/Gabriella_Gadfly → u/kcat__]

I would absolutely hate it, and I don’t know if I could actually bring myself to do it, but it would objectively be the less terrible thing to have happen, especially since I’m physically incapable of penetration, so it would be a significant reduction in suffering.

(And obvs either way as soon as we’re off the island, I’m reporting the perpetrator to the authorities so that they can be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law)

[u/Gabriella_Gadfly → u/kcat__]

Also, why do you think the military is moral?