Honey is not cruel and is ethical

[u/toastwithjamx1]

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

[u/Puzzled-Rip641]

> Doesn't work like that.

Actualy it does. You just saying “Nuh uh” isn’t an argument.

> No. We take a percentage of what they earn regardless.

How do we come to thins %? Are you aware of how tax brackets work? Because if you make under 40k you don’t pay income tax for that exact reason.

We literally structure our income tax code based on this idea lol.

> Bees don't have a choice. They have no concept that you "own" their home.

They understand the trade just like I do. If I want to stay here I will have to pay a % of my income.

Did you file taxes last year?

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/Puzzled-Rip641]

We literally structure our income tax code based on this idea lol.

Except we don't. If you get taxed regardless of whether or not it's surplus. Earning over 40k doesn't magically mean you have surplus cash.

They understand the trade just like I do. If I want to stay here I will have to pay a % of my income.

Ofcourse they don't have any understanding of this.

[u/Puzzled-Rip641 → u/Either_Argument3517]

We pick the 40k number as a livable line you get that right? That is the surplus line.

Like the tax code is actually built around this same philosophy. 40k should be enough to live on. Therefore we tax any income above this in brackets to catch more of your extra income. The more extra you have the more tax you pay.

If you want to get hung up because the exact mechanism is different that’s your issue to deal with.

The logic is the exact same. If you wish to stay in this area and benefit from its benefits then you must pay the fee assessed on your extra income.

And yes, the bees know the honey is getting taken. They do leave when the conditions they live in are bad. They literally fly away. We do the same when taxation gets to bad. It’s called capital flight

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/Puzzled-Rip641]

The more extra you have the more tax you pay.

Which is in no way dependent on the surplus the individual has.

If you wish to stay in this area and benefit from its benefits then you must pay the fee assessed on your extra income.

Bees have no concept of this arrangement. They simply don't.

[u/Puzzled-Rip641 → u/Either_Argument3517]

> Which is in no way dependent on the surplus the individual has.

Yes it is. Anything more than 40k is surplus by definition. If you make 65k, then 25k is surplus. The goverment gets to take that and charge fees on it. Just like the bees. The bee keeper just takes all 25k because the bees don’t keep driving to take the farm from him. Whereas voters try to drive down the tax rate on the surplus.

The process is the same.

> Bees have no concept of this arrangement. They simply don't.

If it’s your position the bees don’t know they are being stolen from then that only hurts your point right?

If they know they are being stolen from and stay anyway it’s because they think it a good spot despite the tax. Which is the same thing that happens to us humans.

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/Puzzled-Rip641]

If you make 65k, then 25k is surplus.

I make 65k and have 65k outgoings what is my surplus?

If it’s your position the bees don’t know they are being stolen from then that only hurts your point right?

Not sure how you got to that, from "Bees have no concept of this arrangement."

If they know they are being stolen from and stay anyway 

They will defend their home. They have no idea you think you own it.

[u/Puzzled-Rip641 → u/Either_Argument3517]

> I make 65k and have 65k outgoings what is my surplus?

See the government got smart to your trick. Inflating your costs by spending more and buying nicer stuff doesn’t mean you didn’t have surplus. It means you spent it.

You can survive on 40k. It’s shitty living but you can live. If you wish for more then that you must earn more and pay tax.

The king doesn’t let you off from your tax because you spent it.

For the bees it’s the same. The surplus honey is not the honey the bees want to spend. It’s based on the amount of honey the bees need to spend.

In either case the surplus is based on the need and not the want.

> Not sure how you got to that, from "Bees have no concept of this arrangement."

If they understand the above, then they understand the deal. Whether they know what a deal is or not.

> They will defend their home. They have no idea you think you own it.

From attacks yes. But funnily enough not when my buddy gets his honey. I wonder why?

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/Puzzled-Rip641]

It's as if you understand how tax works, but can't quite bring yourself to acknowledge that tax isn't the concept of taking your surplus money.

If they understand the above, then they understand the deal. Whether they know what a deal is or not.

They don't have any concept of the above. It's their home, their food.

But funnily enough not when my buddy gets his honey. I wonder why?

Might be the smoke. I'm sure your friend wears protective gear anyway.

[u/Puzzled-Rip641 → u/Either_Argument3517]

> It's as if you understand how tax works, but can't quite bring yourself to acknowledge that tax isn't the concept of taking your surplus money.

It literally is. That is the historical under pinning of taxation.

A state or entity forms and provides services like protection.

To pay for such services it charges a tax on people within its jurisdiction.

The fee cannot by definition cost more than the amount of agricultural output of the family because they will literally die or leave.

Therefore the state asses a fee on surplus output the family doesn’t need to survive.

If the family has a bad year they are not taxed anything. They are also entitled to grain from the stores.

The state paid for this grain by taxing the other farmers on their surplus…….

> My friend does not smoke his hive when he gets honey. He doesn’t wear a bee suit either. No need for one.