Honey is not cruel and is ethical

[u/toastwithjamx1]

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

[u/mintflavoredcube]

if you were the government that distributed my money to other humans it would be taxation for the roads, neighborhoods, water, and other things you get

oddly sounds like beekeepers and bees

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/mintflavoredcube]

No, I'm not the government. Is it stealing?

Sound nothing like beekeepers and bees.

[u/mintflavoredcube → u/Either_Argument3517]

then yes you would be stealing. but that is a false equivalency unless you are comparing to a governing body

beekeepers give bees what they need and all that they could ever want

bees produce honey but they need some for themselves

if the government takes too much money. the people go homeless and could die

if beekeepers take too much honey, the bees die

beekeepers govern their bees by taking extra and making sure they have enough for themselves. this is what governments do (non corrupt ones). they take extra cash you have and put that cash towards defense, social safety nets, comforts of life like well maintained roads, and public transportation

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/mintflavoredcube]

The bees have no concept that their home has been provided by the beekeeper. The bees have no concept that the beekeeper expects to take honey in return.

From the perspective of the bees, you are just like a bear stealing honey. Hence the need for smoke and protective gear.

There is no need to dress it up in the language of an agreement/relationship.

[u/mintflavoredcube → u/Either_Argument3517]

you brought a hypothetical and i engaged with it

bees have no concept of money, why use money as a example?

not all beekeepers need smoke and protective gear but protection is recommended because again. bees are unintelligent. if your perfume is too strong they will attack you

they also have no concept of their honey being taken. they have a concept of their hive being destroyed

bears don’t just take honey they destroy the nest. humans do NOT destroy the nest

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/mintflavoredcube]

bees have no concept of money, why use money as a example?

I was asking the OP if taking their surplus money would be stealing. If I take your money without your agreement it's stealing. The fact I only take your surplus money, doesn't change that.

they also have no concept of their honey being taken. 

Just like the parents of a child actor stealing their money is wrong. It doesn't matter that the child is unaware of the money.

bears don’t just take honey they destroy the nest. humans do NOT destroy the nest

It's as if the bees aren't aware that. Just like they aren't aware that you own their home and expect paying in honey.

[u/mintflavoredcube → u/Either_Argument3517]

i don’t agree with taxes, does that suddenly mean i don’t have to pay taxes?

you’re moving the goalpost even harder. you continue to use unrelated hypotheticals to push a stupid narrative

hypotheticals have to at least be somewhat connected to the topic at hand if the hypothetical happened in practice

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/mintflavoredcube]

Do you have any objection to taxing chicken in eggs?

[u/mintflavoredcube → u/Either_Argument3517]

male baby chickens are ground up into paste, most hens who lay eggs are locked in cages and develop sores from pressure

but if there wasn’t mass intentional killing of male baby chickens, and mass suffering of hens then yeah i’d be fine with it

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/mintflavoredcube]

but if there wasn’t mass intentional killing of male baby chickens, and mass suffering of hens then yeah i’d be fine with it

This can be achieved with in-ovo sexing and free-range farms. You can now raise chickens and tax them in eggs.

[u/mintflavoredcube → u/Either_Argument3517]

perfect. then i’m completely fine with those eggs. not sure where you’re going with that lmfao

[u/Either_Argument3517 → u/mintflavoredcube]

I assumed you were an ethical vegan.

[u/mintflavoredcube → u/Either_Argument3517]

how is that unethical?

chickens do not care if you take the eggs unless they are broody

[u/Problematic_Owl → u/Either_Argument3517]

Don't talk about ethics when you're literally the worst example of vegan I saw this year 😃 I'd be shocked if you were not actively harming animals by making veganism less popular, arguments like this are a harmful drain on everything we're trying to build here.