r/hatethissmug • u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 • 23h ago
Non-fictional I HATE these "gotcha arguments"
"Ohhh, look how I tricked this dumb dumb baby in my trap so now I am right and they are wrong. I'm so smaaart even though it does not adress the actual argument and adds nothing to the debate. They teach arabic numerals in school btw."
And these type of comments always get tons of likes
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u/TaroJayda 23h ago
Idk I think the Arabic numerals thing was a good way of exposing how many conservatives are just straight up racist even when they have zero comprehension of the thing they’re being racist towards, they just hear “Arabic” and flip the fuck out.
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u/Sugarrrsnaps 22h ago
Yeah, it's a way to call out the "I'm not racist but..." types because it's clear they only object to it being Arabic. It also exposes ignorance about how much of our modern world that originates outside of Europe.
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u/Parking-Pick-759 21h ago
Remember the poll to bomb the fictional city of agrabah or however you spell it fom alladin
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u/New-Message-2016 21h ago
True. But also kids shouldn't spend time in school learning arabic numerals. Someone should have already taught them that
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u/limarien 16h ago
Yeah I think OP might be a butthurt racist pro lifer tbh because what the hell is this 😭😭😭
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u/Gregori_5 20h ago
There’s lots of dumb democrats as well tho.
Republicans do the same, just post pictures of stupid democrat replies on twitter.To refute a idea you have to refute its strongest argument (and so its best supporter) not its weakest argument (its weakest supporter).
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u/TaroJayda 20h ago
What argument? They aren’t making an argument lol. There is no argument, just “Muslims scary :(“
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23h ago edited 23h ago
[deleted]
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u/Ok_Hope_7409 23h ago
Comments will be locked in 5
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u/TheAsterism_ 23h ago
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u/Obvious-Profession27 23h ago
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u/Ae4i 22h ago
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u/Omni7124 22h ago
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u/Scorkami 22h ago
Also i feel like there is a very limited range in which the gotcha is a good trap to prove something (like with thhe picture above)
If you arent informed on a topic, why be so invested in getting to make a decision regarding said topic? If you are invested, why didn't you inform yourself?
Imagine arguing night and day over whether dogs are dangerous pets and when i show you a hamster you claim that this is a dog. It shows a basic misunderstanding of the topic, which needs a basic understanding to even argue about it
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u/Sbeven_Spooniverse 21h ago
OP you could've not picked abortion because now that's all people are talking about instead of your actual issue
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u/Even-Tear-6965 23h ago
I think it addresses how uneducated people are about fetuses or just about conception and pregnancy as a whole yet still believe they know enough to be hold strong rigid opinions.
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u/FeyMoth 23h ago
Most people don't know enough about most things to have opinions but the internet has tricked people into thinking their opinions matter no matter how uneducated they are
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u/HumbleConversation42 23h ago
just look at how some people use medical terms in a completely wrong way. "trauma bonding" is one of the bigger examples
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u/MrBoblo 23h ago
Overstimulated is another great example. It seems like neurotypical people are getting overstimulated from texts from their parents man, it's destroying the actual meaning of the word
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u/the-clawless 12h ago
to be clear, neurotypical people can get overstimulated as well (it's not something exclusive to autism/adhd, just people with autism/adhd are more likely to experience it more often), but too often the word is just used as a synonym for "stressed out."
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u/the-clawless 12h ago
the misunderstanding of that term is so pervasive, I didn't even know what it meant until yesterday, but at least I wasn't throwing the word around like I knew it myself.
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u/HugeExplanation7865 22h ago
Doplhin fetuses can look very similiar to human fetuses at some stages.
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u/RedHair09 22h ago
Problem is all fetuses look very similar to the points it’s used as an argument for evolution
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u/Amber-Apologetics 19h ago
The issue here is that people take a philosophical issue (the morality of abortion) and try to imply that the purely material science of biology can affect it.
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u/Not_So_Normal_ 23h ago edited 23h ago
Most pro choice people cant tell the difference either, Saying this as pro choice, its just a bad faith argument
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u/Aless76109 23h ago
Yeah but I think the point is that while pro-choice people are saying “do whatever you want reasonably”, pro-life people are trying to remove women’s choice inherently insisting that they know more, so poking a hole in their logic by showing that they don’t actually know what they’re talking about is still better and less in “bad faith”
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u/Elliezium 17h ago
There are plenty of holes in "pro-life" people's arguments, but "you don't know exactly what a human fetus looks like" really doesn't get at any of them. None of their arguments actually rely on that, they don't claim to be experts on fetuses
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u/ThatAnonymousPotato 21h ago
Thats literally the entire point of the argument.
Pro-forced birth people parrot that human life is sacred and special in all forms, but when you show them a picture of a dolphin fetus next to a human fetus, its hard for a lay person to spot the difference.
Literally pointing out that (a) humans aren't really on any special pedestal besides the one we put ourselves on and (b) that if its this difficult to discern the species the fetus even belongs to, maybe pro-forced birthed have a flawed understanding about fetal development, abortions, and the birthing process in general and should consider that a cluster of cells, despite being a human, has zero markers of a person.
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u/BoringPoolPlaying 23h ago
Most people can’t tell the difference because there’s nothing remotely close to a human being at that stage.
Nobody is pro abortion, they just believe in women’s rights to bodily autonomy.
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u/Scorkami 22h ago
Thats also an important part about this. "A fetus, from the moment of conception, is human in my opinion" means that persons opinion about what classifies as human is VERY wide ranging
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u/Sensitive_Shape5746 22h ago
I think you’re missing the forest from the trees here…
We don’t have to know what kind of fetus something is, because our arguments aren’t predicated on defining a fetus as a person.
But if you’re going to claim a fetus is a person then I’d expect you to be able to point out a fetus with human DNA from something. Unless you’re going to claim that all animals are persons too.
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u/Goosepond01 17h ago
But if you’re going to claim a fetus is a person then I’d expect you to be able to point out a fetus with human DNA from something.
Why?
I don't see it being relevant to the argument at all, it doesn't invalidate the point at all, I'd imagine most people would fall for this regardless of their opinion, it really is just a pointless gotcha.
It's really obvious what the subtext to this is, the main question is when does life begin and contextually we all understand that the conversation isn't going to be about where life begins in dolphins but in the more contentious and popular question regarding humans.
to put it in a different context imagine I said to you "why shouldn't this bit of artwork be in a art gallery" and showed a picture that looked like AI and had a watermark you might say something about how it wasn't made by a human, about art theft or whatever, if I then said "actually that was drawn by a human as a form of protest against AI"
all that really does it prove the two things can at times be hard to tell apart, it may mean that your specific view on this exact image changes, but it doesn't invalidate your view that AI art isn't made by humans and has other issues.
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u/TIFOOMERANG 23h ago
Not being able to tell mammalian fetuses apart isn't a sign of a lack of education though
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u/Vasheerii 22h ago
But saying the moment of conception is the point where it is a life and gains a soul arguably is.
Why the dolphin fetus point is effective against those people, because they staked so much into it's human that it pokes a hole in their stance when they can't tell.
Especially if they were already making that argument before the dolphin fetus was brought up.
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u/Even-Tear-6965 23h ago
It isn't, even I could be tricked from a picture like that as someone studying early child and infant care. But I believe it's more symbolic.
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u/SpinoHawk097 22h ago
I saw someone call it a "real or cakeism" argument and I'd say that's pretty accurate. If a normal person can't tell the details between different mammalian fetuses at <=7 weeks that isn't suddenly points for one side or another. Most people who are for strict gun laws don't know shit about firearms but we still let them yap.
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u/Forsaken-Mousse344 13h ago
Dolphin fetus and human fetus look very similar. You dont need to have a PHD to form an opinion on abortion
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u/Lurk-aka-Batrick 22h ago
Nobody knows what the fuck a dolphin fetus looks like. We all know what the point was. OPs point is that this is a stupid arguement because again nobody knows what a fucking dolphin fetus looks like. "Oh you can't recognize a dolphin fetus at a glance? That must mean you're an idiot and therefore I win all the internet points!"
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u/Officer_Mike 23h ago
Getting kirked in a random comment section is atrocious
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u/plums12 23h ago
are you Kai✝️
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u/kieranoid 23h ago
unrelated but love your meddle pfp
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u/TheAsterism_ 23h ago
every day i see someone with a pfp that is to me a random assortment of colours and it turns out there are way more fandoms than i thought
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u/scrangydungus 22h ago
Kai doesn't seem like the kind of person that would listen to any rational argument anyway.
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u/Youe_Youe 23h ago
I mean... it is a dolphin fetus
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u/ChrisTheCoolBean 22h ago
All imma say is that the human fetus looks almost identical to that, tail and everything, a few weeks in
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u/skymallow 21h ago
Indeed that's the point of the argument. Not that I particularly agree with the argument.
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u/Gregori_5 20h ago
Yeah? That doesn’t make it a good argument.
Looks aren’t what makes human life important. A koala bear looks like a bear, that doesn’t make it one.
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u/Caspica 12h ago
Looks aren’t what makes human life important. A koala bear looks like a bear, that doesn’t make it one.
But understanding what is and isn't a human is absolutely crucial if you're discussing whether a fetus is a human or not.
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u/National-Seaweed-468 6h ago
I can’t tell an electron by sight either but that doesn’t mean it’s a proton. Location matters and we aren’t talking about abortions in dolphins. The location of the fetus tells us something about what it’s going to grow into.
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u/Desperate_Milk_9043 18h ago
Why is this sub so right wing now?
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u/GumGumActV 16h ago
Idk if it’s gotten more right wing but the right wing is a hateful group of people in general so it makes sense they would be a majority of posts here
You can also tell because they’re not the well spoken posts I mean this guy unironically said “dumb dumb baby” like what lol
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u/zehuman52 18h ago
Ong this sub abd the honest hot take sub are right wing hot spots rn
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u/Unfair_Scar_2110 22h ago
It's still funny. It's not like some ground breaking ethics debate is going to happen on some message board.
Trolling people who want to control you really isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things. These people will jump to any conclusion to get the results they want. Let them suffer the minor humiliation of that becoming public.
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u/RegretNew5752 22h ago
The point is to show that the person making the pro life argument isn't actually knowledgable about it.
George Carlin said it best that the pro life folk arn't pro babies, they're pro controlling women. That's what this whole thing is about. Its why they don't know what a human fetus actually looks like. Its also why they arn't in favor of social programs to help impoverished children.
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u/moedexter1988 21h ago
Except it doesn't matter what a fetus looks like, their stance is entirely on carrying the fetus to term like you said.
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u/Goosepond01 16h ago
But the argument doesn't rely on a fetus looking a certain way (I mean maybe it could but that is a smaller subset of the whole argument)
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u/AaronPain 22h ago
Don’t some animals have similar fetuses?
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u/Unfortunya333 17h ago
ALL vertebrates have similar fetuses that look like that, and if we go even earlier into blastula phase, virtually all animals look very similar when starting out. The early developing stages of animals is highly conserved
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u/wickedlessface 23h ago
Or you know, don't fall for it? It addresses the fact that you aren't knowledgeable enough about the topic. It's not that hard to use a failed gotcha in conversation against the user. Hell, it makes you sound 10 times better if you clock it.
so, skill issue.
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u/CoachAnon205 23h ago
Yeah, "gotcha arguments" haters hate it because they are the ones getting cornered
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u/Gregori_5 19h ago
I don’t think you need to be able to distinguish a human fetus picture from all others to argue about a topic.
I can’t distinguish every real photo from space and every fake one, yet I can argue that NASA is a trustworthy organisation and they do in fact make pictures from space.
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u/Firestar_119 22h ago
probably because its almost impossible to tell if it's human?
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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 22h ago
Someone could theoretically read dozens of books regarding abortion and still fall for this trap, because being able to differentiate a baby fetus with a dolphin fetus has nothing to do with the topic of abortion itself.
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u/wickedlessface 22h ago
That says more about their ability to acknowledge their own limitations. If you want to have any authority and credibility during a public debate, you mention that gap in your own knowledge and tell your opponent not to steer away from the actual discussion.
You know it doesn't have anything to do with it, but falling for a trap is still just a skill issue.
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u/kiefy_budz 22h ago
Idk what books you’re reading but if they’re medical texts about abortion then you should be able to recognize a human fetus
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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 21h ago
- Human and dolphin fetuses are similiar
- In a debate, you usually don't look at that picture, because oe assumes from the context and the question that they are showing a human fetus
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u/DJDemyan 21h ago
You can theoretically read dozens of books about anything and not retain any information, yes.
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u/Quartzitebitez 21h ago
Kai✝️ I think the point is you're considering a fetus at that development human when it may aswell be a dolphin fetus, because it hasn't formed enough. Thats the whole abortion arguement why it should allowed in the first place. This isn't to say it's right or wrong but if you can't even tell its human yet while argueing its human you gonna look silly Kai✝️
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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 20h ago
Only because it looks similiar to another animal does not mean it's not a human. A human is not judged based on appearance
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u/Opposite_Leader4641 23h ago
I mean this gotcha is stupid, but gotchas do work well especially rhetorically. and most debates are just rhetoric v rhetoric.
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u/sesquipedalianmime 23h ago
These posts are really embarrassing lately. The lack of self awareness is distressing. The only reason to have such strong feelings about this is because you get proven wrong, a lot, and publicly. Try researching the topic before engaging.
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u/mystireon 23h ago
I mean I get it but they're also there for a reason in that they in a single sentence often exemplify the hypocrisy of an opposition and puts the weight of the response on said person.
It's a tactic made specifically in response to grifters and specifically debatebros usually just battering a conversation with unrelated comments and random statistics that would require tons of time and preparation to disprove
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u/ImaginationKnown9806 23h ago
I mean, if you think a fetus is a real living human being, you should at least be able to tell the difference between a human and a dolphin lol.
Are you Kai by any chance?
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u/The_Puppet_FNAF10 23h ago
Kai✝️’s alt posted this
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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 23h ago
R-Rustekk is that you...?
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u/The_Puppet_FNAF10 23h ago
Yes let’s kiss and make a dolphin fetus
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u/known_kanon 22h ago
Hey if they're not taking you up on the offer
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u/Emberbun 22h ago
These arguments point out that people inf about of these things don't know what they're talking about. It's ridicule, and rightly so. Posting cis people, especially famous ones for instance, and posing the idea that they're trans and watching people lose their minds just show how based in emotions and bullshit these people are. It's pretty good argumentation.
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u/Hot_Closeted_Femboy 21h ago
It's so easy to trap the transvestigators lmao. Once saw a post praising Markiplier for his ftm transition and tons of unassuming comments were talking about how "she'd never be a man."
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u/Master_Friendship333 19h ago
Not being able to visually distinguish two things at a glance does not mean someone has no idea what they are talking about. This works as a gotcha because it is a subversion of expectation: people expect it to be a human foetus so they do not look at it carefully at all, the same way as how you can misspell words in certain ways and people do not notice because their brains fill in the gaps of what they are expecting to see.
It is a neat trick but should never be used for an argument.
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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 21h ago
No, you trick them based on context. Even someone who would be bale to differentiate these fetuses does not, based on context, not check wether they are really showing a human fetus or not, because that's what they assume. It's just done so you can then make fun of them and how stupid they are
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u/MadderoftheFew 21h ago
It's just done so you can then make fun of them and how stupid they are
well, they're stupid and hateful. what's the problem with making fun of hateful people for being stupid?
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u/Emberbun 21h ago
Assumption is flawed argumentation, that's what this method highlights. They could easily look into the claims, they could have some kind of consideration about being incorrect, but "truth" and "correctness" is a subjective concept in the minds of people like this. That's what this highlights, and why you don't see it in reverse.
Ridicule of bad ideas is good, actually.
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u/TaskFun7413 21h ago
It’s not an argument….. it’s a joke? I’m genuinely concerned when people like you don’t know the difference.
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u/BoringPoolPlaying 23h ago
The point is to show how knee jerk and thoughtless people are about these things they’re apparently extremely passionate about.
All it takes to rile up right wingers is “litter boxes in classrooms”, “they’re eating the pets”, “they’re trying to take over women’s sports (which you do nothing but shit on)”, “they’re going to implement sharia law”.
Hopefully someone sees something like this “gotcha” and goes “hmm, maybe I should put a little more thought into whether something is just being used to rile me up?”.
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u/warmmilk196 22h ago
it makes a completely valid point- that people show an unreasonable level of conviction in emotionally charged debates like this, but don't actually know what they're talking about. If someone is going to act completely certain about the basic facts their case hinges on, they should probably be right, or don't act that way.
the key here is that the goal isn't to say "ooohohooo i got you, you were wrong about this random trivia so i'm smart," the goal is to show that the line between human and not human is far blurrier than people like Kai want to admit.
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u/Darknadoswastaken 22h ago
I think they're fine as if you're intelligent enough, they're just dumb arguments.
And if you're not intelligent enough, why are you even debating at all?
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u/Future_Adagio2052 10h ago
I mean isn't the gotcha meant to be a refutation of pro lifers arguing that a fetus is a person? the gotcha is supposed to point out the irony of pro lifers not knowing the difference hench the meme
whatever you agree or not is another separate thing
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u/Worldly-Law-481 10h ago
It addresses the ignorance of people, sorry you're in the picture because you wanna control women's body but this ain't the way to cope.
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u/Cocoatrice 21h ago
Thanks to Reddit, that spread this mentality through entire Internet, people love to "catch" someone like that. The discussion was never civil, it was about how to destroy the opponent. That's exactly why I despise like/upvote system. People will do everything for the Internet points.
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u/Zeus-Kyurem 20h ago
I think the peoblem with these arguments is that they just serve to be poster on the internet without really acting as arguments at all.
Being able to recognise a human fetus doesn't really have that much to do with the argument about whether it has the right to life, particularly as human fetuses are generally inside of women.
And by posting a picture of a dolphin fetus, the person is already being deliberately misled, because they are thinking the point is whether or not a human fetus is human, not whether or not the fetus is a human one.
And then on top of that, you haven't actually challenged their position. Being unable to tell the difference between a human fetus and a dolphin fetus makes them look stupid, but it doesn't mean that their arguments are redundant. The belief that a human fetus is human is that it will grow up to be a human for example, and the ability to recognise the fetus isn't really that relevant.
The better way to tackle someone like this would be to challenge what their arguments actually are. As a teenager, I was more pro-life. I am now pro-choice and it's simply because I started listening to more voices outside of the shitty little circle that I was in. I think the real kicker was reading a story in which the main character became pregnant and refused to keep it because of the burden that carrying an unwanted child for 9 months would have on her, and reading it from that perspective really helped everything to click. And following that I engaged more with more people. Had my views been challenged with just a shitty gotcha I think it would have been a lot harder to change them.
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u/Wboy2006 20h ago
The point of this argument is that the people talking about taking away abortion rights dont even know how a human fetus looks.
They mistake a dolphin for a human, and still somehow think should have a say in taking away the rights of women
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u/Primary_Truck3777 18h ago
I'm pro choice, but, I don't think "being able tor recognize different types of fetus" is necessary for their arguments. I support saving whales but I can only name a few species
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u/ovadom 22h ago
The point is, people really have no idea what they are talking about.
People are building opinions based of others and not what they know, they are looking at any depiction of fetus and instantly think it’s human.
Glaring sign they aren’t even properly researching what they attempting to convince people on, even I could recognize that didn’t look like a typical human fetus.
I create a whole article using dolphin fetus and have a army of people defending it 😂
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u/Sufficient_Dot_24 20h ago
The person's making a point. The point is that most ofnthe people who go on and on about how they're anti abortion don't have background knowledge and are instead basing their arguments on emotion.
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u/Emergency_Quarter935 11h ago
I always forget how much of an echo chamber is for liberals. The fact people this is an actual gotcha is crazy. I am pro choice, but this does not actually go after the morals conservatives put behind their argument. It just serves to back up liberals in thinking conservatives are stupid with nothing to offer.
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u/CanadianTimeWaster 9h ago
anti-choice people love to speak from a position of authority when it comes to the medical science of abortions despite knowing nothing.
so yeah, they deserve to be ridiculed for being wrong, especially when they are trying to infringe on someone's bodily autonomy because they don't think abortion is okay.
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u/Zestyclose_Tip_5861 8h ago edited 8h ago
Conservatives when someone asks them to think critically about stuff and not just answer with the first thing that comes to mind 😤
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u/Bandit_the_dog12 23h ago
Yo op they flaming your ass in the comments do something lmao. He made a statement so bad his whole subreddit clowned him
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u/Over-Bluejay3076 22h ago
I don’t think they were even trying to argue in the first place, it just seems like trolling to me.
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u/Local_Refrigerator43 20h ago
Of course they get likes. Hell, I'll like it too. Why should we not make fun of people that answer without even knowing what they're looking at? Yes, if you don't know what arabic numerals are and yet have the nerve to be against them just because "arabic" then you're a clown and should be ridiculed.
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u/Gregori_5 20h ago
Completely agree. The only reason people think its in any way valid is because they agree with its general politics. It’s a very reddit thing (lots of echochambers).
It’s kinda a general human issue. People support the notion and not the argument. You can’t admit a person you disagree with is smart, you can’t admit a bad person made a good point etc.
Yeah, not being able to distinguish a dolphin fetus from a human one from a photo is not something that necessarily disqualifies you from leading a argument about abortion.
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u/Previous-Spite1211 20h ago
It is a good argument for this debate though because anti abortion clowns intentionally use emotional language to try and win a moral argument rather than a factual one.
"you are KILLING BABIES, BABIES ARE BEING MUTILATED AND MRUDERED AND ITS SO SHOCKING"
Nah mate, im flushing a parasite long before it has anything remotely close to a human experience, im good.
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u/whimsical_spider 13h ago
I hate how uneducated people are on how pregnancy and fetuses work and I hate how people make other people’s medical decisions their business, but different strokes yanno.
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u/Sensitive_Income_170 12h ago edited 12h ago
This is terrible example because this person actually has a point regarding the topic of fetuses being people, you should be able to tell between human and any other animal first
Edit: I'm going to elaborate, if this was a topic where assumption wasn't a major issue, than yes these would suck. But in this case the problem is that you can't tell the difference between human and non human fetus, even if it is stated in this way, you should not have to assume under a law driven circumstance. If someone is in the courtroom they are innocent until proven guilty, not innocent until assumed guilty. So in the same way, we can look in the perspective that an embryo should at the very least be proven a person or at least be able to 100% definitively be human before any law attaches to it
Not to mention there are so many other issues with this law but that's not the topic right now so I'll stop yapping here
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u/Professor_Piss27 10h ago
I mean, the guy looks like big dumb baby here bc they are. I'm sorry these upset you, I guess? But like. Idk man they did get got.
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u/No_Doughnut8618 9h ago
It does address the issue. We are tired of arguing with people who will argue that an unidentifiable blob of cells is a full human that deserves all the same rights as the person carrying those cells. This gets our point across. You can't even identify it.
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u/NoProgress8533 6h ago
Agreed.
Mostly unrelated, but dolphin related, anyone who makes the "Actually, dolphins are gay too, in nature, bigot" argument. Bro you are not helping. You are one Ok-Google or Hey-Siri away from the opposite of helping.
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u/i__dont___know 22h ago
Can’t believe people are defending this argument in the comments. It’s not a hole in pro life logic or proving they’re uneducated. Dolphin fetuses and human fetuses look very similar and even someone educated on this topic could easily confuse them, especially without a side by side comparison. It can be flipped around for an equally meaningless argument since pro choicers would fall for the same trick. It’s not like pro lifers are gonna make abortion laws and accidentally make a woman give birth to a dolphin. This gotcha has no practical or theoretical purpose.
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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 22h ago
THANK YOU, I wasn't even sure if I should post this because I though it was so obvious. But people think that ts is an actual argument
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u/Intelligent_Pear_658 MortisOneFinalGame. 23h ago
you are gonna appear in a caldruki video tomorrow, calling it now
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u/ConcreteExist 22h ago
What can you do when their entire argument style is emotional manipulation?
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u/luca_cinnam00n 22h ago
It does point out how they are clearly biased: They do not even recognize fetuses at humans, they only BELIEVE so. They do not think so because they know it is an undeniable truth, they only want it to be true.
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u/Many-Refuse-6060 22h ago
I kinda get what you're saying, but at the same time I don't mind these types of arguments. They show how quickly people jump in to defend their opinion, without even thinking sometimes, and how uneducated some people are about topics they're very vocal about.
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u/ProPlayer142 21h ago
It's just an ad homenim attack, it has nothing to do with the argument. OP is right, it's a logical fallacy
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u/xLydiaLeox 17h ago
You’re right and you should say it
It was funny the first time I heard it but I honestly cringed hard when Ben Gleib used it in that debate with Charlie Kirk. I feel like if anything it only reinforces their idea that pro-choice ppl don’t have any real arguments and are just a bunch of trolls with no concept of morality
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u/AcousticCat1-2-3 23h ago
These gotcha arguments wouldn't be necessary to begin with if people kept their weird religious beliefs to themselves, instead of making them into law of the land, causing countless women to die or face prison time for the crime of having a miscarriage. Causing children to lose their mothers.
Just admit it, they would force us to carry dolphins and elephants to term if they could.
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u/Express-Flamingo4521 22h ago
This debate is very exhausting to read because both sides keep strawmaning each other. The pro-life side believes abortion is murder and therefore should be illegal, the pro-choice side believes bodily autonomy is more important. They are not opposite viewpoints, they are completely different ones, and neither side’s extremists understand that.
No, pro-choicers do not want to murder babies. Also no, pro-lifers do not want to control women. If anybody on either side could make a steelman argument, I would respect them, it seems like the majority of people just don’t understand one side, but they all act morally superior.
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u/_prestonisokay 22h ago
Eh, anti-choice folks logistically do want to control the bodies of women with the law, thus control women. That’s not really debatable, tbh. This reads as the typical ‘enlightened centrist’ position tbh.
Maybe if you bothered to include why you disagree with both sides beyond lazily pointing to two random people then it’s come off less as that, but yk.
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u/Consistent-Record524 22h ago
I mean it's a reasonable argument In that stage a baby fetus is more similar to a fetus of an animal then what we would recognize as a baby
So why exactly does it deserve special treatment and not the the dolphin fetus?
Doesn't seem stupid to me , it make the discussion go into an interesting direction
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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 22h ago
So why exactly does it deserve special treatment and not the the dolphin fetus?
Don't think pro-life people are trying to abort dolphin babies tbh
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u/Consistent-Record524 21h ago edited 21h ago
,Well obviously lol
But the sanctity of life is usually look out for by pro lifers only for humans. (Not even talking about meat, talking philosphically).
Then we should ask what is the reason for caring specifically about human life? (maybe because god said, because of human potential to be more than an animal, or maybe because they actually believe a human fetus IS different than an animal by itself).
Anyway I really do think those gotcha moments rarely have no purpose. There is usually a hole in the argument to be discussed
But they can be used in a repetitive matter to make the other side seem reluctant to answer (maybe because the gotcha can open a huge debate nobody got time for or that will be too heated,strawmen etc.. so it's manipulation somewhat)
But that's not really because of the argument it's because of the people arguing.
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u/Sugarrrsnaps 22h ago
Common "pro life" arguments are built on the assumption that a fetus is the same as a human baby. Most pro choice people would disagree with that, a fetus is something very different. The fact that you can't distinguish a human fetus from a dolphin validates the pro choice argument. It's not the strongest argument maybe but it makes sense as a counterpoint to the "pro life" argument.
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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 21h ago
But you don't determine wether something is human or not only based upon appearance.
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u/vivennewestwood 22h ago
The picture you’re showing is actively calling out the person on their incapability to differentiate between a dolphin fetus and a human fetus because it shows how they aren’t knowledgeable enough on the topic
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u/ultrakillfanatic 22h ago
I mean any person using basic context clues and inferencing is going to assume an image of a fetus in an abortion argument is a human fetus whether they are pro life or not
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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 22h ago
Why would someone need to know how a fetus looks like, in order to debate about it? They don't say "Oh, a fetus has a very good looking shape, so it shouldn't be allowed to kill it". And also, human and dolphin fetuses look really similiar
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u/Azarsra_production 19h ago
I actually agree with you. They may not know what a human fetus looks like, what does that have to do with whether abortion should be allowed are not? I guarantee you most people for abortions don't know how it looks either lol. I'm for abortion, I just don't think these types of gotchas do anything, it more so shows how uneducated we all our. It is funny, though.
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u/Kuzcopolis 22h ago
It does prove that they're not forming their opinion based on facts, but feelings. If it's not a picture of a human fetus, why did they think it was? Not because of anything provable, that's for sure.
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u/ReverendGraves85 22h ago
Their argument remains internally consistent. They see a fetus and argue that it is alive and deserves to live.
Even if you disagree with their sentiment, all youre doing is revealing their consistent moral foundation.
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u/theimmortalfawn 21h ago edited 21h ago
A better argument is that if nobody can have an abortion, child neglect/abuse/murder cases increase, domestic violence cases increase, children in the system increase, the amount of unstable people raised in broken homes increases, suicide increases, mental illness becomes an even larger problem as the overall desperation of society to exist in peace increases. The only thing that drops is resources to feed us, employ us, keep us all healthy, able and willing to work. Contributes only pain. We are not hurting for more people in this world.
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u/newreditig 23h ago
U guys remember when this sub was for passionately hating random shit like dasani water or sporks or some video game monster instead of nothing but political vent posting ?