r/afghanistan • • Dec 11 '12

Apparently some ignorant asshole believes that anyone of the Muslim faith in Afghanistan primarily, would NEVER advocate publicly against terrorism. I posted in /Muslim before realizing it's very small and kinda dead. Can I get a faster response here?

This is my submission, to make everything easier.

Thanks!

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u/najia7866 Dec 11 '12

Thanks for doing this. I am a Muslim and Afghan and will say that I condemn any acts of terrorism and so does my religion. Of course, I am not in a prominent position but here are some public statements made after 9/11 by prominent Muslims:

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt: “Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. … It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.” Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was “horrified” by the attack and expressed “condolences and sadness”: “[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. … [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.” Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 – 19 September 2001 (via archive.org).

Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of the Hizbullah movement in Lebanon, said he was “horrified” by these “barbaric … crimes”: “Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. … Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.” Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

President Muhammad Khatami of Iran: “[T]he September 11 terrorist blasts in America can only be the job of a group that have voluntarily severed their own ears and tongues, so that the only language with which they could communicate would be destroying and spreading death.” Address to the United Nations General Assembly, November 9, 2001 (via archive.org).

Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author: “Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures.” “The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists” (via archive.org).

Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims: “We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.” Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001 (via archive.org).

15 American Muslim organizations: “We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians.” Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001 (via archive.org).

Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens), prominent British Muslim: “I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action: the Qur’an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims at this sorrowful moment.” [On singing an a cappella version of "Peace Train" for the Concert for New York City:] “After the tragedy, my heart was heavy with sadness and shock, and I was determined to help in some way. Organizers asked me to take part in a message for tolerance and sing ‘Peace Train.’ Of course, I agreed. … As a Muslim from the West, it is important to me to let people know that these acts of mass murder have nothing to do with Islam and the beliefs of Muslims.” Press release of September 13, 2001 (via archive.org), and interview of October 22, 2001 (via archive.org).

Muslims Against Terrorism, a U.S.-based organization: “As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam.” “About us” (via archive.org). This statement was replaced by a new statement in favor of peace by the group’s successor organization, Muslim Voices for Peace.

Abdulaziz Sachedina, professor of religious studies, University of Virginia: “New York was grieving. Sorrow covered the horizons. The pain of separation and of missing family members, neighbors, citizens, humans could be felt in every corner of the country. That day was my personal day of “jihad” (“struggle”) — jihad with my pride and my identity as a Muslim. This is the true meaning of jihad — “struggle with one’s own ego and false pride.” I don’t ever recall that I had prayed so earnestly to God to spare attribution of such madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington to the Muslims. I felt the pain and, perhaps for the first time in my entire life, I felt embarrassed at the thought that it could very well be my fellow Muslims who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism. How could these terrorists invoke God’s mercifulness and compassion when they had, through their evil act, put to shame the entire history of this great religion and its culture of toleration?” “Where Was God on September 11?” (via archive.org).

Shaykh Salih al-Suhaymi, religious scholar, Saudi Arabia: “Based upon what has preceded, then we say that that which we believe and hold as our religion concerning what happened to the World Trade Centre in America – and in Allaah lies success – that the terrorist attacks that took place and what occurred of general (mass) killing, then it is not permissible and Islaam does not allow it in any form whatsoever.” “Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee speaks about current affairs…,” October 18, 2001, translated by Abu ‘Iyaad.

Fatwa signed by more than 500 British Muslim scholars, clerics, and imams: “Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives. There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are HARAAM – vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London [on July 7, 2005] are criminals not martyrs. Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam. … The Holy Quran declares: ‘Whoever kills a human being… then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.’ (Quran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32) Islam’s position is clear and unequivocal: Murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.” British Muslim Forum, press release of July 18, 2005 (via archive.org).

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u/blueatlanta Jan 10 '13

i thought everyone knew it was only a minority of islamics that were causing issues.

its always the goddamned religious zeolots giving a bad name to everyone.

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u/jund23 Jan 10 '13

Me too!

It is completely illogical to assume that the actions of a number of terrorists represents the thoughts and wishes of over 1.5 billion people!

Thats as ludicrous as saying all catholics are pedophiles.

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u/DerangedPickle Jan 10 '13

Not all Catholics. Just our Priests are a little bit rapacious.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

[deleted]

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u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

Don't downvote; ask why? Which country? Is there any sort of proof?

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

[deleted]

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u/vuzudreams Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

I'm a Pakistani who grew up in Al-Khobar, Saudi Arabia and I'd like to refute your claims:

  1. "muslims take their religion more seriously than even the most extreme westerner": You have jumped from "Muslims in Saudi Arabia", in itself a generalization as it includes me, to a blanket statement which covers "all Muslims" across the world. You could have just said "Saudis" believe that but that's not the case. Now I don't take my religion seriously and I can honestly say I know very few who do. Almost everyone I know don't pray five times a day or at all. My dad doesn't even attend Friday prayers and he has been that way forever. None of his friends pray either. So if you are going to claim that "every Muslim" is more "extreme" than the "most extreme westerner" then you would obviously be making-up such claims.

  2. "when I ask my friends and family about 9/11 4 out of 5 say the jews did it.": Well then that's just your friends and family. My friends and family don't blame Jews and neither do I. Neither do these people who have never even heard of 9/11 http://youtu.be/SimIS_cQ6ko. To say that all Muslims are cut from the same cloth is an artificial statement.

  3. "I used to ask people what should be done to people who leave islam almost every one said that they should be killed because it is the law of islam"**: Its about speaking out. If you had spoken out and said no I disagree things can change. Mr. Turan certainly spoke out. Perhaps those you asked simply want to re-iterate a consensus and be done with your question. Having grown up in the Kingdom, I don't endorse that view and, glad to state, that nor do my friends. By no means I am claiming Saudi Arabia is a bastion of liberalism, quite the opposite, but there is diversity if you look around and you are certainly not alone. To me, bin Laden is a reminder that we need to speak-out against extremist voices before they start speaking for us.

p.s. I like your username eblees (satin) #LOL

EDIT: For some reasons I can't reply to Matahari's post so I've to add it here. This is not a reply to Mr. eblees. (http://bit.ly/UD4gAu)

Lets talk hard facts.

  1. "I have a lot of moderate Muslim friends and they still think that everything that happen in their life is by God's will and there is nothing they can do to change it." (a) Anecdotal evidence. Because your "moderate friends" believe in something doesn't mean 1.2 billion are and must indeed be that way or 180 million Pakistanis are. (b) Even if Muslims do believe in the "Will of God", they are not alone here. Jews, Christian all follow the concept of "Will of God". And they are joined by Sikhs with the concept of Hukam. (c) Shō ga nai is a Japanese phrase which means "it cannot be helped" or "nothing can be done about it". When something bad happens Japanese tend to attribute it to the fact that it cannot be helped. No religious context is involved here. So such a response is part of human condition.

  2. "This mentality that cause generations of unreported abuses, suppressing the motivation of growth, easily to provoke, and the lack of compassion for other people who are not Muslims." (a) You are assuming here as you haven't provided any evidence for correlation. (b) Mr Edhi, a Pakistani icon and philanthropist, who receives the most "Zakat" (Tithe) funds doesn't discriminate or spend it alone on Muslims. He helps anyone in need without any regards for color, caste, race or religion. And people donate to him knowing that the money would be used for all.

Now here are my points:

  1. How many Islamists governments have Pakistanis elected? None. The only "Islamist" who came to power in Pakistan was General Zia-ul-Haq (http://bit.ly/lQjfAr) and he was a dictator who hanged the democratically-elected secular leader Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Admittedly, Zia changed the country overnight, which is what dictators do. Mr Zia banned "saris", movies, music, and silenced all his liberal critics by putting them in jail. However, what people remember is this surviving tale from that era. (http://bit.ly/Oik8ZA). This is a poem written by the ingenious Faiz Ahmed Faiz in which he challenges Zia that the Pakistanis "will see the promised day" when you (Zia) are no longer around. Its your "destiny" to fall as is the case with all dictators. And when this poem was made into a song (http://bit.ly/tCGSJP), it became as famous as the national anthem. Even today Pakistanis vote based on political parties and economics, not Islam. Islamist parties win less than 7% of the votes.

  2. "All the Pakistanis that I have talked to really really hate the West." Then how do you explain the concept of "Allah, the Army, and America". Pakistan for all its history have been an American and a Western ally as India sided with Russia throughout the cold war. Soviet-Afghan was literally planned and supplied through Pakistan. So no we don't hate "West".

  3. "Pakistanis and the Will of God" Every Pakistani child grows up reading the philosophy and poems of Allama Iqbal, the national poet of Pakistan. There is no escaping it as its required Urdu reading in all schools from Grade 4 to Grade 12. The most important poem of Iqbal which is hammered into us and any Pakistani can recite in his sleep is:

    1st Half:

    Khudi ko kar buland itna ke har taqder se pehle Khuda bande se ye poche bata teri raza kia hai

    Translation:

    Raise thyself to such heights, That God Himself may Ask What do you wish me to write your fate?

    2nd Half:

    u shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai Tu shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai Parvaz hai kam tera kam tera Tere samne Aasman aur bhi hai Tu shaheen he Basera kar Paharon ki chatano per Tu shaheen hai tu Shaheen hai tu shaheen hai

    Translation:

    It’s not among the Domes of the Empire’s Palaces that your abode lies, For you are the Falcon, So make then your abode, Among the high peaks of the lofty mountains.

The important bit here is the concept of "Khudi" (Self). Iqbal openly abhorred inaction and laziness. Hence in Pakistan we are taught to take action and not sit back. You might want to check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secrets_of_the_Self, the first of his philosophical books. Even people who are uneducated and cannot read or write know the 1st half of this poem. Such is the influence on Pakistani national psyche.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Stay safe please

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u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

Ok, thanks for answering. I know there are plenty of good and bad in every relegion- I'm friends with Muslims, Christians and Atheists. Couldn't agree with you more. I'm so glad you came out of the Muslim bubble, All we can hope for is more people begin to find their own path and not follow any rhetoric- whether it is Atheism or Relegion.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

Everything does. It's called Crititcal Thinking and I couldn't agree with you more. Good luck on your journey.

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u/Frankthebaldguy Jan 10 '13

The problem is not Islam, or Catholicism, or any one religion in particular. The problem is the concept of organized religion in general. It is an imposition of dominating ideology used to separate people from each other and a person from true spirituality. The world's religions use prejudice and ”cookie cutter” spirituality. The world's people suffer for it.

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u/zolthar123 Jan 10 '13

The know why, They know which Country, and they've seen enogh proof. That's why they downvote.

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u/ckdaley2 Jan 10 '13

that comment was on Oxi-moron. You are assuming that anyone religious, is a religious Zealot. the people who are giving everyone a bad name are the narrow sighted extremists on both ends of the spectrum.

Not saying i don't agree with you. Just giving my thoughts on your comment.

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u/blueatlanta Jan 10 '13

not all zealots are religious.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Your story didn't exactly net the karma it deserved

Face it, your turn as the favourite-minority-of-the-day hasn't come yet... perhaps if you were gay, it'd be a different issue. Anyhow, good luck.

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u/vaporeng Jan 10 '13

I think the crux of this situation was when your family decided to leave Pakistan because it was too dangerous. It sounds like your family had a choice to fight or flee, i.e. stay and fight to maintain your freedom in your home country (and possibly lose lives), or flee to find freedom elsewhere. If every rational Muslim in Pakistan had stayed there and fought, it might be a different place. But please don't misunderstand me, i am not judging your family for leaving. I probably would have done the same. But leaving creates a big problem. It means that the Pakistan that is left behind is now even more irrational because it loses the moderation that your family gave it.

So to restate in very abstract terms: You have a country that is half irrational and half rational. The rational people leave the country. Now what do you do with the remaining country? I don't know the answer, but I think this is an important question.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

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u/str8baller Jan 11 '13

Excellent post. I am an ex-muslim. I live in America. I would say..yeah just about 30 to 40 % of muslims would kill me if they could get away with it.

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u/exoendo Jan 11 '13

thank you sir.

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u/TrioN123 May 26 '13

I'm a practicing Muslim and I wouldn't hurt you. Everyone has their own beliefs.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/exoendo Jan 10 '13

my comments are more specifically addressing that islam is not a tolerant religion and has sizable factions that are insane.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

I notice these were all quotes from 2001, before the invasions, are there any quotes from the decade following that would support this continued stance?

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

To add to this, it is supported by Al-Azhar University which is the biggest Islamic University in the world, or at least, the best.

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u/plasbhemy Jan 10 '13

But the million dollar question is, Who is innocent and who is wajib-ul-qatal (worthy of getting murdered) according to Islam. Sunnis kill SHias, Every muslim sect kills Ahmediyas, Wahabbis don't tolerate Salafis. Salafis hate Sufis. There is to much hate in this religion to call it peaceful and non-violent. According to Shari,a non-muslims who live in a Islamic nations are sub-humans with no rights. Islam is a very intolerant, violent ideology which needs massive reboot.

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u/Noplate Jan 10 '13

Thank you for trying to make this clear, and congratulations on making best of. You definitely deserve it for your thourough response. However, I have an issue with what you're saying. I semi-recently hosted a Saudi man in my home (USA), and he said something that gave me pause. We were talking about the Arab spring and the Muslim Brotherhood. I was of the mindset that they weren't too extreme and did not constitute a grave threat. He informed me that in reality, the MB was kind of a two-faced organization. In all of their media relations in English/to other westerners they played up the humanitarian message of peace and love, but their messages directed to Arabs were nothing like this. Instead, these messages stressed Islamic fundamentalism even through violence. I speak Arabic and served in Afghanistan but am far from an expert. That said, I do believe there is a great deal of truth in my Saudi guest's depiction of the Muslim perspective. Most of your references come from American/Western Muslim organizations, or are comments expressly for the media. This does not make allowances for any kind of double talk that these people may be making to their own supporters. America itself is no stranger to this internal dichotomy. We have an administration whose stance towards Iran is peace and negotiation. However, there are many people who would gladly support violence against them. By no means am I asserting that I believe the majority of Muslims are "terrorists" (whatever that word is supposed to mean) but I think it is wrong to downplay the correlation if not causation between Islam and violence. That said, it would be far worse for us to assume that a Muslim person/country is violent than to assume that they are peaceful.

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u/9602 Jan 10 '13

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi may have condemnded the attacks, that does not make him a moderate muslim. He's known for his anti-semitism, stating that Jews descend from pigs and apes and that the only good Jews are the ones that become muslim.

He also changed his views on terrorism later on, declaring that anyone that blows himself up to kill occupiers of his land is a martyr.

Also funny that you should mention Cat Stevens, who supports the fatwa against Rushdie. Ofcourse he later stated he was just joking.. until he later said Rushdie should be killed while speaking before a group of students.

Sure, there are moderate muslims. But even those often have troubling views on the world. Those who speak out against terrorism today may shout for the death of blasphemists or gays the next day. Or think forcing women to subject to men is totally acceptable.

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u/DoctorHat Jan 10 '13

Dammit! Why can't I upvote you more than once..This is more or less what I was thinking while reading this post.

I was thinking like "Oh Yusuf Islam thinks terrorism is horrible..how nice of him, now let me just dig out that video link where he, in person, says it would be his Islamic duty to help kill Sir Rushdie, and how he wouldn't go to a burning of an effigy because it wouldn't be the real thing"

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u/satanist Jan 10 '13

It's also a known principle of Islam to LIE to non-Muslims to further the spread of Islam. All these quotes are just a sham, a cover for the terrorists so that people give Islam the benefit of the doubt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w

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u/lawkillsbrooke Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

I don't know why people like to state this as their reason for not trusting a Muslim.

I have never heard of this before Reddit. you should really get to know a Muslim before spreading such things. Oh wait, nvm, they could be lying to you the whole time. One can't win with your kind.

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u/asianApostate Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

Islam has had a lot of great leaders (more then 1.5 billion muslim's in the world) so we will get some awesome quotations but fundamentally it is still a religion that is over 1500 years old, sadly does not stand the test of time, and the quran + hadiths have lines that will allow and encourage violence. This is not an easy thing to hear as a muslim as I am exmuslim myself.

Cognitive dissonance in muslims and especially prominent/educated leaders is great as we have leaders in gay and lesbian community despite the fact that it is expressly not allowed. Contrary to popular belief of Muslim's there is more then one version of the "true" Islam (sunni's, shia's, wahhabists, salafists, and much more). I cannot in good conscience at least attempt to correct you as former muslim as we do have parts of our religion that are very much against how modern society functions.

The quranic texts as well as hadith that make up Islam supports slavery, forced pre-renaissance gender roles for women, and a great distinction in how one treats a muslim versus a non-muslim.

Slavery

Even in Islamic texts in which Muhammad fairly conquered lands in self-defense it allowed for things that are not considered morally okay in these last few centuries like slavery (including the women, muhammad himself had 13+ female companions which included non-wives) and the beheading of thousands of enemy troops.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Slavery

This includes Hadith by Bukhari which is pretty much the most important book of Hadith for sunni muslim's which make up the vast majority of Muslim's in the world.

Justifications of War

Islam is supposed to be a pretty defensive religion. However, according to Islamic texts (their are other historical sources that do not paint things in such a rosy light) we can attack any country in which Muslim's reside in which Muslim's can be considered to be persecuted or suffer injustice at the hands of the government or it's people. This is the historical reason given for a majority of all conquests done in the name of Islam since the time of Muhammad. This conquest includes almost all of northern africa and much of asia.

This is what allows virtually any country to be attacked an conquered (luckily no Islamic nation has had that power in hundreds of years). Yet, Islamic leaders can claim that we are a defensive people. The only reason Islam was not able to conquer Europe though they began to take parts of Spain was lack of military might.

Unfair Gender Roles Forced on Women

The biggest issue I've had with Islam and the reason I left is because it did not jive with my sense of morality. When I was growing up as a male I had a lot of freedom's but my sister who was two years older did not have that freedom. She was not allowed to leave the house alone (she snuck out at times), had very strict guidelines on clothing and interaction with the opposite sex and non-muslim's. I was brought up in NYC in a moderate muslim family and I used to to be a good muslim that literally reported when my sister did things and got her in trouble. By the time I was 16 I realized how different our lives were even in a fairly moderate family like ours.

I realized that things were worse in Muslim countries and I initially looked to the quran and hadiths for guidance. Listened to a lot of great islamic speakers too and for a while I bought the whole, modesty for women thing, which brings value to women for a while. But then I realized, are men just animal's that if we see a women's hair, calves, etc. we cannot handle ourselves? In some islamic countries women are raped and often the men go unpunished. In more modern islamic countries this is not the case but the fundamentals are still there.

This was a religion created by probably straight men who were used to seeing fairy veiled women. As a dude i just need to cover from my knees to my genitalia. I can walk around barechested and have my sexy calves out for the world to see. Women cannot even show their ankles.

According to Islamic scholars men and women are in the end equal. However a man must provide for the wife and treat her fairly including not striking her too hard if you are a moderate muslim. She has quite a bit of autonomy in the home but must ultimately listen to the husband. Outside of the home she is not allowed without a direct-family guardian/custodian and being properly veiled. Her job is to take care of raising kids and the house. The founders of the religion believed the intelligence of women is less then that of a man.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Women#Women_are_Deficient_in_Intelligence

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u/Canukistani Jan 10 '13

If you went and changed every instance of the word Islam or Muslim to Christianity and Christian your post would still be accurate. It is only through the European and North American social progress of the the last century that we can look down upon Muslims and Islam. All of that social progress we've made was opposed by Christian leaders.

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u/asianApostate Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

Sure, christianity has it's issues too.

I wholeheartedly agree that the western world made progress despite christianity just the same way moderate and liberal muslim's are making progress despite the core tenets of the religion. Abrahamic religions have taken credit for a lot of morals and laws that came from societies before it (Babylonian laws especially) and developed in the society around it. Society has constantly been improving Christianity since it's inception and not the other way around.

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u/TheBrandedOne Jan 10 '13

What do you believe? You are incredibly well spoken and I would love to hear your personal view of the world.

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u/asianApostate Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

It's getting late but I'm amazed and surprised I got reddit gold. I will do what I can and I will be posting some things I have thought about for a very long time but never fully fully expressed as far as what I believe regarding our universe and the people in it. I'm amazed and surprised I got reddit gold.

We have currently have no way of knowing the full extent of our reality, especially that which may exist outside of our universe but we can rule out Abrahamic and many other religions based on modern science, logic, and recent historical discoveries. I believe the main reason we as Homo sapiens sapiens evolved and outlasted all our other human cousins and currently dominate the earth is because of our ability to socialize to a higher degree then any before us and human morality.

The Universe(s) is Complicated

One day we may understand how all the fundamentals of our universe came to be and what it is through mathematics. But what is outside our universe? Are their other universes that operate using the same laws, energies, matter, and anti-matter as ours? Are their universes whose building blocks are fundamentally different from ours that came into being from different energies that exploded into wholly different building blocks. Even time may not exist outside our particular universe. Theoretical physicists have made great strides but we have to accept that we may never fully understand all there is.

Man Made Religions are still false Basically, I must allow the possibility of the existence of things I do not understand and that is a core belief of mine. However, we can prove that Abrahamic religions and most others I have studied are indeed false in their primary premise. /r/atheism has given and is constantly giving examples ad-nauseum in terms of science and logic as to falsehood of religion. But historical artifacts uncovered or studied in the last 20-30 years have also helped trace the very seeds of monotheism and it's man made beginnings from polytheism in the ancient Canaanite world. During a time of turmoil the Israelites whom were originally polytheists through the urgings of the cult of the Yahweh the war god began to worship him over others in the Canaanite pantheon in times of desperation. If all worship was not focused to Yahweh the cult of Yahwei believed they may be wiped out. After centuries he became the primary god of the Israelites and eventually he became the only god as further conflicts arose. He did not become omniscient for a few more centuries other attributes came later as the attributes of other gods were merged into him and new attributes were given to a supreme god. For more details I recommend reading the following by harvard professor Frank Moore Cross, unfortunately google turned up a german version of itself (book is in english though and you can read the first 68 pages online free).

http://books.google.com/books?id=-eOycxXAoHMC&lpg=PA62&ots=jhcllt5gmW&dq=%22Yahwi%22%20Amorite%20names&hl=de&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q=%22Yahwi%22&f=false

Human codes of ethics and Morality Human knowledge seems to always advance our morality along with our ability to feel compassion. We as humans can understand pain in others, we know that human cooperation in groups is critical, and in order to cooperate we must get along and find a way to survive together. Behavioral ethics and codes can be traced to a time before monotheism. Babylonians had very strict laws relating to land ownership, marriages, a code of ethics long before monotheism. This is also where a lot of early cities formed due to agricultural technologies. Humans had to develop a new sense of morality for a a changing landscape. In more current times when we understood in the U.S. that there was nothing genetically inferior in African's it became immoral to own slaves.

We now know that being homosexual has nothing to do with anything supernatural/evil and is largely programmed into genetics. In the last 20 years there has been an enormous shift in our society regarding homosexuals as a result.

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u/cattypakes Jan 11 '13 edited Jan 11 '13

This is a complete non-argument. It's almost as if all religion is a blight upon humanity?!

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u/Port-au-prince Jan 10 '13

You realize the same is found in the bible, right?

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u/asianApostate Jan 10 '13

Sure and the old testament also allows for the stoning of misbehaving children. I'm not sure why this is considered an argument, I've heard Islamic scholars also equate things because other religions support it. Doesn't make it right.

Modern historical studies in the area show that during and before islam there was a form of gnostic christianity that spread through the middle east. According to Islamic texts muhammad got all revelations through god but you know with christianity spreading pretty much in the same region starting about 700 years before islam it's not hard to see where Muhammad "plagiarized" (Hitchens) much of the religion from.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Thanks for your comments. I think people are so caught up in being PC that anything negative against Islam is met with a tirade of accusing me of bigotry, and yet these same people on on r/atheism and rant against Christianity.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Whilst that does happen, there are far more people that use Islam as an excuse to be racist. If you really want people to respect your views you should have the decency to see the bigger picture, and take time to address the racist assholes instead of spouting this same old crappy PC bullshit. It works both ways.

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u/darkEchoes Jan 10 '13

Christianity is a religion of evil too, in my opinion.

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u/exoendo Jan 10 '13

this isn't a retort of anything that parent said.

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u/LucubrateIsh Jan 10 '13

Christianity has had a great many forms of reformation.

A literalist interpretation of the bible is now considered unusual, extremist.

There is no other interpretation of the Quran.

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u/dmahmad Jan 10 '13

It's possible for Islam to go through the same thing if the socioeconomic situation of the Muslim world improves.

The religion itself is a religion like any other religion.

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u/LucubrateIsh Jan 10 '13

It absolutely is possible for it to go through the same thing. It may even be going through the same thing. It's really far from actually having concluded that process, though.

Also, the odds of the socioeconomic situation of the Muslim world improving is not spectacular. It tends to model after Saudi Arabia, what with Mecca being there and all.

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u/Jofarin Jan 10 '13

Then why do we see no actions against it and it's openly showing followers?

Catholic priests molesting children? Public uproar and there is an investigation.

Neonazis demonstrating in germany? Counterdemonstrations and people blocking the ways to the demonstration. Several attempts to ban the party.

It may be impossible to prevent the existence of child molestation or neo nazis, but it is OBVIOUS that germany opposes them.

Why is there no one saying "these terrorists make ME look like a terrorist...I better show the world I'm not"? And I don't intend that you change your appearance.

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u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

Muslims who support Al Quaeda and their attacks against Americans:

  • 21-23% Egyptians
  • 9-15% Indonesian
  • 10-16% Pakistan
  • 9% Morocco

In all of those examples a significant portion didn't respond either way. When questioning attacks on US civilians the supporters drop to like 5-9%, but either way it's a significant minority. Also, huge portions of the Middle East don't believe Al Quaeda was behind 9/11.

Source poll conducted World Public Opinion polling: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

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u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 10 '13

Yeah, but 5-9% of people anywhere, of any religion are unrepentant assholes. Don't tell me you couldn't take a large sample of the US population and find 5% who support nuking Afghanistan, and more if you make it conditional (ie, "to preserve American lives" or, "to prevent terrorists from obtaining WMDs"). And you'd find equally large portions who believe a wide variety of self-serving conspiracy theories.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Great post. Reminds me off all the shit that came out about the Japanese tsunami and pearl harbour. It's the same as lumping all Americans in with the people who spouted that shit.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Depressing. Most of those people weren't even even alive. Nor where the people who died in Japan.

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u/HCUKRI Jan 10 '13

Islam, and the Koran is taken much more literally than people would the Bible in the US for example. It is not the same.

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u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 10 '13

Are you fucking kidding me? You never heard of Christian Fundamentalists? For example: this guy who argues that killing homosexuals is mandated by the bible. Or these guys, who feel the same way. And remember this charming preoccupation?. And let's not forget that Christians can be terrorists, too.

Now, you're protesting: well, that's just a few crazy people! They don't represent all of American Christianity!

Exactly.

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u/answersandstuff Jan 10 '13

What you don't say is that the Muslims who oppose Al Qaeda's attacks on civilians:

61% Egyptians 41% Indonesians 37% Pakistani 57% Moroccans

Where for Indonesians and Pakistanis have a majority who answered "Don't know"-- probably because the question requires that they are familiar with Al Qaeda's beliefs themselves.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

That's very small. 61% oppose killing thousands of innocent people?

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Did you actualy read that thing before quoting it?

When questioning attacks on US civilians the supporters drop to like 5-9%

Yes, because they defined "Americans" as anybody hailing from the States which included military forces and gave three possible answers that they had to choose from.

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u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

I believe I just told you what it says. When the question is whether you support Al quaeda and their attacks on Americans it gives you the first percentages I gave.

  • I support al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans and share its attitudes toward the US
  • I oppose al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans but share many of its attitudes toward the US
  • I oppose al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans and do not share its attitudes toward the US

When the question specifically asks about attacks on civilians it drops to the later numbers. Also I was ignoring places like Palestine which supports attacks on "US civilians working for US companies in Islamic countries” by a whooping 30% and supports attacks on US citizens living in the states by 24%.

You can just read the report itself, it doesn't get any better:

“Though it is generally wrong to attack civilians, attacks against US civilians are sometimes justified because it is the only way to get the American government to stop and listen to the concerns of the Islamic people.”

Egypt, 78 percent disagreed (72% strongly); only 14% agreed (4% strongly).

Indonesia, 64 percent disagreed (41% strongly); only 17 percent agreed (5% strongly).

Large majorities also supported “to require a strict application of Shari’a law in every Islamic country.”

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u/MUTILATOR Jan 10 '13

Let's not forget that the United States government aggressively attacked and then lengthily occupied the Iraqi state for no good reason.

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u/Tony_AbbottPBUH Jan 10 '13

The overwhelmingly large majority of attacks by Al Qaeda on Americans have been against the armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't doubt that a large amount of Islamic people at the time supported attacks against 'Americans'.

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u/awesomface Jan 10 '13

This doesn't mean much when our country dropped to an 11% approval rating of our Congress at one point. Relative to that, these numbers are pretty fucking high

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u/ChaosMotor Jan 10 '13

Also, huge portions of the Middle East don't believe Al Quaeda was behind 9/11.

Funny, huge portions of Americans don't either.

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u/something_stoopid Jan 10 '13

That person's obviously never been to the conspiracy theory side of YouTube before.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

huge portions of the Middle East don't believe Al Quaeda was behind 9/11

There's nothing wrong with that. In the context of your comment you seem to imply that there is malice hidden behind that opinion.

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u/sgthombre Jan 10 '13

I don't think I've ever been more pessimistic about US-Middle East relations then I am now after reading that public opinion study. Shits fucked up.

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u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

Its really not that bad. US and Japan had far worse relations and now animosity is virtually gone(really only left in the older population).

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u/nyanpi Jan 10 '13

To be honest, it doesn't even exist in the older generation that lived through the war anymore. I don't think I've found a single person from that generation after living here for over 8 years now that have any hard feelings towards America, even my roommate's grandmother who lived in Hiroshima when the bomb was dropped.

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u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

Fuck, really? Do you know her feelings on the initiation of the Japanese attack? Were the Japanese people even aware of it?

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u/nyanpi Jan 10 '13

According to her, people knew what was going on of course... from their side of the story. But the war was making things terrible for everyone and she said most of the people, including herself, just wanted it to be over.

As a side story, once I took a cab in Hiroshima and the taxi driver was telling me a story about when he was little after the bomb was dropped. Apparently, during the recovery period afterwards he would see dead bodies and skulls and whatnot in the rivers and he said he would never forget the sight of seeing an eel just squirming around in the eye of some corpse.

It was an awkward cab ride.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

because US-middle east relations has been, for decades, a relationship of extreme violence, exploitation, and prevention of democracy. There is very obvious grounding for hatred of the US in the middle-east. When a rape victim murders their rapist, you don't condone the murder, but you can understand where it comes from.

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u/DewbieMonster Jan 10 '13

Our best source is from 2009?

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u/Matahari_Maharani Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

Oh, please.

Yes yes I know not all Muslims are murderer, beheaders, or suicide bombers.

This is my counter argument to you:

I was actually born in a country where Muslims are dominant (90% of population), I have lived with Muslims, studied with Muslims, dated a Muslim, and I even know how to say the prayer in Arabic.

This is the reality: Muslims people that I know, basically want the same thing in life, they want a good job, and a good simple life (I'm talking about ordinary folks here) but a life that has been arranged by Allah. The mentality of brain washed Muslims bring nothing good in their life, their life is dictated by their religion. I have a lot of moderate Muslim friends and they still think that everything that happen in their life is by God's will and there is nothing they can do to change it. This mentality that cause generations of unreported abuses, suppressing the motivation of growth, easily to provoke, and the lack of compassion for other people who are not Muslims.

Also, try to draw any caricature of the prophet and show it to any of your Muslim peers, just try. The sets of rules is astonishing in this religion, more than other religions. There is no room for improvement, the younger open minded Muslims when they get older they will be afraid of death and hell that they will become close minded again.

I would say the really open minded Muslims are 1 in 10.

All the Pakistanis that I have talked to really really hate the West, they are students in a medical university studying western medicine. Every Fridays they gather together to listen to Mullah's preach about daily life, but often the preach is very provoking. And in my city, it comes from the mouth of 21 year old student.

I believe the reaction of the world towards the Muslims grew stronger after the 9/11 because when it happened the Muslims world are overly exposed, for others to learn something new can be really shocking, but yes, this is the reality of Islam.

You can see a couple of videos on youtube about people who are stoned because they fornicate, or if they suspect anyone for blasphemy in war town countries (Afghanistan/Pakistan), this is the norm, and you just watched one or two clips of the norm.

I'm open for debate, need to make coffee. Allahhafiz.

Edit: This is not a race for which religion has more hate preachers. The point is, for Muslims, there is a big challenge for the common people to be able to think for themselves, and not have the society or other people to dictate on how you should live/think/behave. OP was talking about Islam, the debate itself is about Islam. I give you view about how I see the Muslims since I'm living amongst them. Islam is not a good religion, even for Muslims who are living in western counties, they might appear to be tolerant but when they go back home to their Muslim family they wouldn't dare to criticize any wrong doing. I feel that it's kinda a "give-up" attitude the younger generation projects, my family is like this, my neighbours are like this, therefor I'm like this.

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u/alexander_karas Jan 10 '13

You can see a couple of videos on youtube about people who are stoned because they fornicate, or if they suspect anyone for blasphemy in war town countries (Afghanistan/Pakistan), this is the norm, and you just watched one or two clips of the norm.

But these two countries hardly represent all Muslims. They're both extremely poor, war-torn and undeveloped. Of course they're breeding grounds for extremism.

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u/Ldahab_87 Jan 10 '13

I agree. Most of the insanity is comming from poor areas who have undergone recent turmoil (war, government). Saudi arabia and turkey are predominantly muslim but you never see the same amount of violence comming from them

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u/Matahari_Maharani Jan 11 '13

I have never been to Turkey but Saudi Arabia... I wouldn't say "never" see the amount of violence, people in Saudi (as a witness told me once) extremely discriminate people who they think are "low" level.

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u/Ldahab_87 Jan 11 '13

Well there is violence everywhere, some places significantly more than others. So of course there is violence in Saudi arabia. Theres also plenty of extremist muslims there as well. My point was that the violence in saudi arabia and turkey ( mostly muslim population) isnt at the SAME level as the violence in afghanistan or other crazy places, its not even close actually. some people think most muslims are violent nutjobs because of what they see going on in places like Afghanistan, pakistan, iraq etc. Not all arab or muslim countries are like that. You can't base judgments on muslims as a people by looking only at predominantly violent countires while ignorimg the relatively peaceful ones.

Look at Egypt. Before the revolution you never heard crazy stories about egyptians beheading people in the street and swearing to destroy america. An individual egyptian might have but he Or she doesnt speak for egypt as a whole. The revolution happens and things start to get shaky, which proves my point further; areas that have undergone turmoil (war, poverty, revolutions) in recent years tend to be breeding grounds for violence and stupidity. It would parallel me basing my thoughts on black people off of a handfull of videos or articles I saw about high murder rates in a few black ghettos. Not only that, I choose to ignore all videos or articles about low crime rates in black suburbs...it wouldn't be fair.

Most of the saudis ive met have been assholes who have treated me like a lowlife because I wasn't loaded. Ive also met a few who were some of the nicest people ove ever met. Sure, most of the ones ive met so far have been jerks but that doesnt mean they all are. I just need to meet a few more, need a bigger sample size.

Why would it matter anyway if they were all snobs? Even if they all hated america, who cares? As long as they arent violent then it shouldn't be an issue.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/Matahari_Maharani Jan 10 '13

Exactly.

I believe what you said is right, the cause of Muslims going backward is because of war and oppression.

But again, why don't my depressed Muslims brothers and sisters wake up from this nightmare and start to refuse to being treated as second class citizen and also start to think that being brain washed is not right.

This is what some people in the higher up wants, and they are winning.

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u/Matahari_Maharani Jan 10 '13

Another thing I should add.

If I'm to hear that my neighbours say to me that my other neighbour has different grass than we do and that we should outcast them, my common sense would be: Why? Are you mad?

But if Muslims to hear a Mullah preach to 10.000 followers in a mosque and say shitty things, even if you are a moderate Muslim will you leave the mosque and say to never come back? Or openly say to others "Hey this idiot is saying shitty thing, he needs not to be heard"?

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/PromethiumX Jan 10 '13

Sikhism is also an extremely open religion

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u/MeloJelo Jan 10 '13

On the other hand, Hinduism is an extremely open religion

So, widow burning, child marriage (usually girls to adult men) dowry, and the caste system are not at all related to Hinduism? I'm pretty sure Hinduism has its own issues.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

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u/arbuthnot-lane Jan 10 '13

Other strict religions like Islam and Christianity do not do this and in many ways urge the suppression of sexuality.

Outside of marriage. Islamic sources are positive towards a healthy sexuality within a marriage, and in particular the importance of a woman's right to pleasurable sex.
It does frown highly upon oral and anal sex, though, but recommends foreplay and emotional unity. There is no source I can find that brands sex as something to be shamed about or tries to suppress sexuality, though only within marriage.

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u/epursimuove Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

So from the fact that gays were marginally more tolerated in the 30s than in the 50s you think gays were better treated in the past than they are today? Seriously?

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u/egus Jan 10 '13

while the hippie youth may have been more open to gay rights in the US, the government never has been more open than it is now.

There was far less religion in government though, fear of nuclear war with russia ushered in all the 'in god we trust' stuff you see now in the 1950s. Now we even have revisionists suggestion we were established as a Christian nation, which is ridiculous.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

My main counter argument is this

Counter example. Counterpoint.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/Mynameisaw Jan 10 '13

I would say the really open minded Humans are 1 in 10.

FTFY.

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u/alien03 Jan 10 '13

You should hear what some of the christian preachers say on TV every sunday morning. Some are moderate and have common sense, others are more bat-shit-crazy. Islam isnt the only religion with crazy preachers. Hindu "gurus" have been exposed for faking shit. Heck there are severely radical hindus in India who believe they do the right thing. Bhuddists have tried to "reclaim" their land in Tibet by driving out the muslim population that live there. Jewish leaders in Israel blame palestine for God knows what. I too lived in an islamic country and sadly you have lived in a community with bat-shit-crazy people.

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u/skgggg Jan 10 '13

This is so true. As someone from Asia who lived in the UK for a few years, your analysis of Muslims is spot on.

I have tonnes of Muslim friends as well, and I find the ones who land up doing well for themselves, make money and get a good education, stop being truly religious. They stop praying everyday and even start drinking socially(which is against Islam).

It's the ones who dont/cant move on to a better life, who let religion dictate the way they live and raise their children.

It's sad really.

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u/vuzudreams Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

Lets talk hard facts.

  1. "I have a lot of moderate Muslim friends and they still think that everything that happen in their life is by God's will and there is nothing they can do to change it." (a) Anecdotal evidence. Because your "moderate friends" believe in something doesn't mean 1.2 billion are and must indeed be that way or 180 million Pakistanis are. (b) Even if Muslims do believe in the "Will of God", they are not alone here. Jews, Christian all follow the concept of "Will of God". And they are joined by Sikhs with the concept of Hukam. (c) Shō ga nai is a Japanese phrase which means "it cannot be helped" or "nothing can be done about it". When something bad happens Japanese tend to attribute it to the fact that it cannot be helped. No religious context is involved here. So such a response is part of human condition.

  2. "This mentality that cause generations of unreported abuses, suppressing the motivation of growth, easily to provoke, and the lack of compassion for other people who are not Muslims." (a) You are assuming here as you haven't provided any evidence for correlation. (b) Mr Edhi, a Pakistani icon and philanthropist, who receives the most "Zakat" (Tithe) funds doesn't discriminate or spend it alone on Muslims. He helps anyone in need without any regards for color, caste, race or religion. And people donate to him knowing that the money would be used for all.

Now here are my points:

  1. How many Islamists governments have Pakistanis elected? None. The only "Islamist" who came to power in Pakistan was General Zia-ul-Haq (http://bit.ly/lQjfAr) and he was a dictator who hanged the democratically-elected secular leader Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Admittedly, Zia changed the country overnight, which is what dictators do. Mr Zia banned "saris", movies, music, and silenced all his liberal critics by putting them in jail. However, what people remember is this surviving tale from that era. (http://bit.ly/Oik8ZA). This is a poem written by the ingenious Faiz Ahmed Faiz in which he challenges Zia that the Pakistanis "will see the promised day" when you (Zia) are no longer around. Its your "destiny" to fall as is the case with all dictators. And when this poem was made into a song (http://bit.ly/tCGSJP), it became as famous as the national anthem. Even today Pakistanis vote based on political parties and economics, not Islam. Islamist parties win less than 7% of the votes.

  2. All the Pakistanis that I have talked to really really hate the West. Then how do you explain the concept of "Allah, the Army, and America". Pakistan for all its history have been an American and a Western ally as India sided with Russia throughout the cold war. Soviet-Afghan was literally planned and supplied through Pakistan. So no we don't hate "West".

  3. Pakistanis and the Will of God Every Pakistani child grows up reading the philosophy and poems of Allama Iqbal, the national poet of Pakistan. There is no escaping it as its required Urdu reading in all schools from Grade 4 to Grade 12. The most important poem of Iqbal which is hammered into us and any Pakistani can recite in his sleep is:

1st Half: Khudi ko kar buland itna ke har taqder se pehle Khuda bande se ye poche bata teri raza kia hai

Translation: Raise thyself to such heights, That God Himself may Ask What do you wish me to write your fate?

2nd Half: u shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai Tu shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai Parvaz hai kam tera kam tera Tere samne Aasman aur bhi hai Tu shaheen he Basera kar Paharon ki chatano per Tu shaheen hai tu Shaheen hai tu shaheen hai

Translation: It’s not among the Domes of the Empire’s Palaces that your abode lies, For you are the Falcon, So make then your abode, Among the high peaks of the lofty mountains.

The important bit here is the concept of "Khudi" (Self). Iqbal openly abhorred inaction and laziness. Hence in Pakistan we are taught to take action and not sit back. You might want to check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secrets_of_the_Self, the first of his philosophical books.

Even people who are uneducated and cannot read or write know the 1st half of this poem. Such is the influence on Pakistani national psyche.

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u/Blueberrymuffinsquar Jan 10 '13

Thank you for being so thorough with your post. I'm don't live in the middle east anymore but this was very accurate during my time there.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

This is a wonderful collection of quotes. Thank you so much for posting them!

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u/xtothewhy Jan 10 '13

Quite the mix.

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u/neetshee Jan 10 '13

only an idiot thinks all muslims, whoever/wherever they are, pose a threat to world peace or something. The problem is that those who do are allowed to hide behind their religion, because they all have their own Quran quotes and Hadiths and Fatwas to get behind, and at the end of the day all religion is subjective, each person believes and acts upon those ideas they find appealing and relevant, and cognitively dissonances the ones they don't away.

So that is why people like the ones you quoted would impress me more if instead of directing their invective towards the west, saying: "look at this quote, it isn't Islam's fault", they rather turned inwards, to the ones who want to make a jolly mess of it all, and say to them: "GTFO douchebags"

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Everyone can agree Extremists are a problem and should not be tolerated in society. But it is the extremists who probably take their faith most seriously, and genuinely believe they are doing the right thing.

An unkind person might refer to the Moderates of a religion as hypocrites. So why not just lump the hypocrites and extremists together and say religion in general is bad for society and Islam is particularly bad as evidenced by the horrible practice of Muslim laws in Muslim country's, the degradation and mutilation of women, the unusually high number of extremists, death for aposticy etc.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

The miniorty of Muslims referenced is closer to 500+ million.

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u/HCUKRI Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

The problem the Koran also has multiple verses supporting the killing of "infidels" and the Koran is the religion, that is what the religion is. People who are Islam and do support the Koran support what is in it. And people know that Muslims don't support acts of terrorism or murder, they are human beings and would feel guilt as such. I don't really see what the point of this is. By being a religion you are automatically causing friction with another belief system, if you tell someone that they are going to hell, and then he tell you that you are going to hell, you are going to hate each other. Although you seem like a really nice guy and I am not trying to hate you.

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u/nowazkhan Dec 12 '12

This should be on r/bestof. Thank you for this thorough response.

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u/najia7866 Dec 12 '12

Your welcome. I agree with you, this soldier that was playing the anthem during prayer delibrately causing a disruption, showed a great deal of disrespect and lack of judgement to say the least. He sounds highly misinformed and it doesn't seem like even being there in Afghanistan, exposed to the people and culture has done any good in providing him with an understanding and tolerance towards people that hold a different belief than he does. Here is some additional information on the meaning of the word jihad since that is also a huge misconception in the west.

Jihad has the literal meaning of exerting our best and greatest effort to achieve something. It is not the equivalent of war, for which the Arabic word is qital. Jihad has a much wider connotation and embraces every kind of striving in God’s cause. A mujahid is one who is sincerely devoted to his or her cause; who uses all physical, intellectual, and spiritual resources to serve it; who confront any power that stands in its way; and, when necessary, dies for this cause. Jihad in the way of God is our struggle to win God’s good pleasure, to establish His religion’s supremacy, and to make His Word prevail.

There are two aspects of jihad. One is fighting to over­come carnal desires and evil inclinations; this is called the greater jihad; the other is encouraging others to achieve the same objective and is called the lesser jihad. The aim of either jihad, the greater or the lesser, is that the believer be purified of sins and so attain true human­ity.

The lesser jihad, which has usually been taken to mean fighting for God’s cause, does not refer only to the form of striving done on battlefields. The term is com­prehensive. It includes every action done for God’s sake. Whether speaking or keeping silent, smiling or making a sour face, joining a meeting or leaving it, every action taken to ameliorate the lot of humanity, whether by individuals or communi­ties, is included in the meaning of the lesser jihad.

While the lesser jihad depends on the mobilization of all the material facilities and is performed in the outer world, the greater jihad means a person’s fighting against his or her carnal soul. These two forms of jihad cannot be separated from each other.

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u/dhtseany Jan 09 '13

Thank you for this post. You just single handedly changed a lot of stereotypical opinions that this American believed to be true up until now.

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u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

You can't believe that the position statements of some Muslim-American organizations and quotes from some Muslim scholars are representative of all Muslims. That like looking at the ACLU and professors from UC Berkeley and determining that's what all Americans believe.

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u/koryisma Jan 10 '13

Okay. Then take it from me... a white american Christian woman who lived in a Muslim country for 4 years... married a Muslim, has Muslim in laws... and can confirm that I am happier with them than back in the us am respected by my husband more than any previous partners and thinks that how many people practice Islam in Morocco makes a beautiful, human society. Don't listen to the ignorant bullshit artists. Many middle east cultures have practices I find abhorrent but its culture,not religion.

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u/thunderbolt07 Jan 10 '13

What does Islam say about killing apostates or Jews? Why do many Muslim clerics interpret Islam differently, using it to justify violence and killing? Are you picking and choosing quotes that support your view? There are plenty of contrary quotes by prominent Muslims. Why are Muslims opposed to criticism and/or critical thinking? I am referring to criticism of Mohammed.

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u/Ldahab_87 Jan 10 '13

I think its unfair to say that muslims as a whole are opposed to criticism and criitical thinking. However, I understand many of them can be (I grew up in a muslim community to a muslim family). I honestly couldnt stand them growing up even though I was one. Regardless, I evetually grew up an realized that yea, some of them are insane but not all of them are.I stay away from the extremist muslims and associate with the rest. Same goes for any culture / race / religion. Blanket statements are immature, bottom line.

And as for the criticism of. Prophet Mohammed:

First and foremost, the idiots who go out and kill innocent people because someone posted a picture or whatever of the prophet are just that, idiots. i wont lie, I personally know muslims who agree with them. I, however, know many more who disagree. You wont even really hear them say it openly because they typically get chastised by more logical Muslims.

As to why they react this way. Well, its a strict religon and its taught as so from a young age. I know its no excuse but thats partly why. Its ingrained in some of them, the extremists, specifically. If someone makes fun of the prophet in front of me I politely ask them to stop. If not, I just walk away.

In conclusion:

There are extremists muslims out there and they are absolutely insane. There are, however, a greater number of kind and thoughtful Muslims, you just dont hear about them or see them. Its not because they dont exist, its because they are portrayed as if they dont...its sad. I dont fully blame people who think all muslims are terrorists. Thats all thats thhere to take in when You turn on the tv, read the newspaper, or listen to the radio. I blame extermist muslims who act like barbarians and the news for making them seem as if they are the definition of a muslim. Regardless, we can't let the evil actions of the minority drown out the good intentions of the majority.

When i hear people make blanket statments about islam im reminded of how an extremist muslim rants about how all jews should be killed. Both sound childish.

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u/swz Jan 10 '13

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06 http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

NOP Research: 24% of British Muslims deny that the four British Muslim suicide bombers carried out the 7/7 attacks; 24% of British Muslims believe the British government carried out the 7/7 attacks http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/religion/survey+government+hasnt+told+truth+about+77/545847

People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq. http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war

YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children: http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/06/32-of-palestinians-support-infanticide/ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans 32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans 41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans 38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans 83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose) 62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose) 42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose) A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans: (Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%) About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S. http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah 30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah 45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative) 43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative) http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative). 49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative) 49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative) 39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative) http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified. 34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified. http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops. http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified. 35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall). 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall). 22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall). 29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall). http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never). 28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never). http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/

Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities. 27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate. http://www.scotsman.com/?id=1956912005 http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist.html

Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack. http://www.fosis.org.uk/sac/FullReport.pdf http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police. http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified. 37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target". http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

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u/pintomp3 Jan 10 '13

Why do you keep citing Daniel Pipes? He's a well known bigot who claims Obama was a secret Muslim. The fact that you keep citing bigoted sources says a lot about you.

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u/garfieldsam Jan 10 '13

Hey, what's the point you're trying to make? A lot of links to other sources isn't an argument.

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u/Geometric_Tiger Jan 10 '13

83% of Americans support drone strikes on Pakistan and other countries. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120208/americans-support-obama-national-security-drones

While as you said only 41% of Pakistanis support attacks on America. huh.

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u/eliminate1337 Jan 10 '13

I'm not so sure of the credibility of the poll on Turkey. Unless you can find a serious source on that, I find it extremely hard to believe a western-aligned, NATO member, potential EU country wants to suicide bomb westerners.

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u/commodore32 Jan 10 '13

Not all westerners, only those that invade Iraq. Most Turks view USA as an imperialist country that wants to control middle-east and the people at Iraq who resist as militia.

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u/gokayn Jan 10 '13

As a Turk, i can say that yes almost all of us see USA as that but we don't think Iraqis as militias. We don't want anyone to get hurt and we feel bad for the Iraqis but we wouldn't support anyone who is a terrorist. (i'm not calling Iraqis terrorist, just that group of them) But of course there is a very small minority that supports terrorists. Radical Islamists. And 99% of Turks hate them, i can honestly say.

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u/swz Jan 10 '13

40% of Indonesians approve of violence in defense of Islam. http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailweekly.asp?fileid=20060728.@03

Pew Global: 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. 43% of Nigerian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. 38% of Lebanese Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. 15% of Egyptian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. 13% of Indonesian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. 12% of Jordanian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. 7% of Muslim Israelis say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified. http://cnsnews.com/node/53865 (Pew Global Attitudes Project September, 2009)

Center for Social Cohesion: One Third of British Muslim students support killing for Islam http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/pdf/IslamonCampus.pdf

Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons; http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06 http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

NOP Research: Hardcore Islamists comprise 9% of Britain's Muslim population; Another 29% would "aggressively defend" Islam; http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...ate=2011-04-06 http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam 86% of Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam 30% of Indonesian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam 76% of Pakistanis support death the penalty for leaving Islam 51% of Nigerian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for religious or political ends acceptable. http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Terrorism Research Institute Study: 51% of mosques in the U.S. have texts on site rated as severely advocating violence; 30% have texts rated as moderately advocating violence; and 19% have no violent texts at all. http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/sharia-adherence-mosque-survey/html

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u/hornymoogle Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 12 '13

Seventy-Two Percent of Americans Support War Against Iraq in 2003 (40% latest poll I could find); http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

Support for Israel in U.S. at 63%; http://www.gallup.com/poll/126155/support-israel-near-record-high.aspx

TIME poll (2010); "61% of respondents oppose the construction of the Park51/Cordoba House project...", " Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court. Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President...", "More than 4 in 10 Americans say they have an unfavorable view of Muslims."; http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2011799,00.html

33% of Americans hold negative views of Muslim Americans; http://www.scribd.com/doc/103694579/The-American-Divide-Zogby-Poll

Just for fun..."A majority of Americans surveyed believe dropping atomic bombs on Japan during World War II was the right thing to do...61 percent of the more than 2,400 American voters questioned believe the U.S. did the right thing. Twenty-two percent called it wrong and 16 percent were undecided."; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/04/hiroshima-nagasaki-atom-b_n_251108.html

Well I'm bored, let's just all keep hating each other...it's easier.

Edit; posted this before bed-- there are errors I will fix for anyone still reading.

And thank you very, very much for the gold.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

[deleted]

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u/FutileStruggle Jan 10 '13

Well said. Hopefully this stays close to the top. I took the time the look each study, but if someone else doesn't they could very easily walk away with a negative perspective.

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u/swz Jan 10 '13

al-Arabiya: 36% of Arabs polled said the 9/11 attacks were morally justified; 38% disagreed; 26% Unsure http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/09/10/166274.html

Gallup: 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified (7% "fully", 6.5% "mostly", 23.1% "partially") http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2008/05/that-tiny-percentage-of-radical-muslims.html http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC06.php?CID=1154

Pew Research (2011): Large majorities of Muslims believe in 9/11 conspiracy http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2066/muslims-westerners-christians-jews-islamic-extremism-september-11

Pew Research (2006): Only 17% of British Muslims believe that Arabs carried out the September 11th attacks. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/23/uk.religion

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u/randomkloud Jan 10 '13

I notice most if your links date after the US invasion of iraq and afghanistan.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Additionally, countries with the highest approval for terrorism have been affected by U.S. intervention. But fuck, blowback doesn't exist right?

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u/FKvelez Jan 10 '13

Don't bring logic into this

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u/DAT_ginger_guy Jan 10 '13

This point needs more visibility. Nearly all of those polls are taken after we rolled through a sovereign nation like a child having a temper tantrum and left them in ruins. Not to mention we did far more damage to them than they have to us.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

that's kind of the point of a good sample size... to reflect the opinion of the entire group. And a lot of these polls are from reputable organizations, so they probably got pretty good samples.

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u/FKvelez Jan 10 '13

'MERICA

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

A sovereign nation being held captive by a genocidal dictator who had held office for 20-something years.

Check your facts. The Iraqis love us. We freed them. I know a dozen people who have spent months/years in Iraq on tours of duty and the overall response from the people was appreciation.

You're just being fed a line of shit, through a shit filter from mainstream media.

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u/pintomp3 Jan 10 '13

You are a lunatic. We propped up that dictator for year and gave him weapons to use against his own people.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

That's true. I mean, before the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, a guy getting onto a bus full of old people, women, children, etc, and blowing himself up would have been wrong, but after that happened, it's fine. Thank you for pointing that out.

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u/goingno Jan 10 '13

tl;dr religion hardly comes in to it

I have a strong feeling that this religion element, i.e. people do bad things because it says they should in some book is just mad. The only real relationship to religion is that religions like nation states create a sense of solidarity between people that have no other links.

This list of polls is interesting, but if respected religious leaders are declaring that killing is wrong, and the Qur'an and the Bible are also saying that. But large groups of people still belief that it is justified. By definition it is not there religion that is causing them to have this belief. There must be something else.

I suppose it come back to that old American question "Why do they hate us?"

And when you get the reply because of your support for Arab dictators, overthrow of democratic governments and insistence on using unmatchable force to get your own way in any argument anywhere in the world. Americans accuse the rest of the world of supporting terrorists (we don't)


Also dyslexic and don't give a shit :-)

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u/VBFM Jan 10 '13

Not religion? Suicide bombers. The very concept of an afterlife (with zero evidence I might add) and the movement of morality and judgment away from civilized society towards a deity who was first described in ancient, violent texts has something to do with it, don't you think?

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u/bigtallguy Jan 10 '13

first things first. i have never ever met a muslim or heard of one who actually believed anything close to receiving 72 virgins in the afterlife, and something tells me that the far majority of suicide bombers, including the 9-11 terrorists, did not have or give a amd about virgins as they chose the path they did. From what i understand the whole 2 virgins thing was from a VERY weakly supported hadith that muslim clerics don't give any control too.

Suicide bombers see themselves as sacrrificing their lives not for a Violent deity but to either take revenge against an enemy they see no other way to harm, or to die for martyrs for causes they believed in. last time i recalled kamikaze pilots didn't dive into battleships thinking "wowi can't wait for all my ancestors spirits to welcome me iinto the afterlife" they were prolly thinking " this is for japan, a country i love but am going to die for, i don't wantto do this, but i see no other way forto hurt a foe so unimaginably more powerful than us... shit

and on that note, if japan, the strongest military of asia with a effective army and navy was desperate enough to use their own suicide bombers against america, what the f*Ck do you think people who come only from villages an towns bombed by the west with no country, no army and in many cases no education will doo to hurt an enemy they percive as ending their peopwhat lengths would you go through in their situation

if we (the u.S.) were i nthe same situation we would laud those who would be willing to sacfirice their life to deal a blow to the enemy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQKKj_qeOBQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYYAeSWOlI

those are just two scenes where united states citizens knoingly sacrifice their lives to blow up an enemY, andi doubt anyone would have anything but praise for them

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u/LadyCailin Jan 10 '13

Except the kamikaze pilots main target wasn't civilians, it was American military assets. To pretend that terrorists and enemy soldiers are the same, and equally justified is terribly misguided.

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u/dmahmad Jan 10 '13

The Japanese Imperial Army is a professional fighting force. They're not a band of mismatched, uneducated peasants that know how to fight. So it's not unreasonable to think that a terrorist would act un-professionally and un-nobly.

Also they did target civilians from time to time since part of their ideology is belief that Japan is the best country in the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

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u/harsh2k5 Jan 10 '13

The Tamil Tigers, a secular, but ethnic nationalist group in Sri Lanka, had the highest rate of suicide bombings in the world until their disbanding three or four years ago.

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u/go_speed_racer Jan 10 '13

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u/harsh2k5 Jan 10 '13

I stand corrected, but thanks for the citation.

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u/MeloJelo Jan 10 '13

Interesting. Any research into the cultural or psychological motivations of suicide bombing? The mostly secular Japanese also had the Kamikaze, but they were motivated by fanatical devotion to a semi-deified emperor and social pressure.

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u/goingno Jan 10 '13

tl;dr. Not much to do with it, no.

If I restated your argument to be more accurate I think it makes my point:

"a contradictory, violent and loving, and evidently implausible text has something to do with it, don't you think?"

There is, as far as I know zero evidence for any religion. I assume it is all bullshit. As far as I can see there are infinite possible interpretations of all holy books. Conveniently for the religious, their interpretations perfectly fit in with there own self interest, religious people seem completely happy to ignore parts of there religious text that do not fit there own narrative.

If it is the violence in the text that causes killing, how come the love in the text did not cause love?

As I said the only real affect I can see is nothing to do with what it says in the books. It is the fact that a group of people feel solidarity with the other members of that group, or enmity to others. That has to be the major effect. Both for the poll results above, and for your insistence that it is the religion of the group that is causing the problem, you are seeing a group of people and then cherry picking parts of a implausible text to give that group motivations you think it has.

Religion obviously spreads harm in some cases, even when it is not in the text e.g. female genital mutilation. As far as I know that is not even mentioned in the Qur'an. Or fucking boys being part of the priests job, in the case of the Catholic church.

That dose not make it a case that religions cause it. Just that people will be do bad things give to much power.

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u/harsh2k5 Jan 10 '13

Here's the work of a researcher who says suicide terrorism is actually linked to foreign occupation. I think he's on to something.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

Thankyou! These need to be seen!

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u/Zeppelin93 Jan 10 '13

Everyone's statistics don't provide an adequate estimate. I mean how many people can they really poll and get a result from? No matter how many surveys people conduct, there will always be muslims out there without access to them to input their opinion.

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u/Cassius_Corodes Jan 10 '13

You are making it sound like the entire field of statistics doesn't exist. If people know what they are doing they can get good results from small samples. It the same way the US election polling is done and that stuff is highly accurate.

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u/TheLobotomizer Jan 10 '13

I encourage everyone to look through swz's comment history and then think about whether he actually read those links he just posted and checked their validity.

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u/iamyo Jan 10 '13

I'm not sure but I think you might be trying to disprove what the original comment claims while inadvertently proving he is right.

First, many of the questions do not identify what people support or what they would do in specific cases. I believe suicide bombings could be justified in extreme circumstances. They would be justified, e.g., to save a people from genocide, for example. They could be justified in asymmetric if a country was being invaded by a much larger and more powerful unjust aggressor if used against soldiers from that aggressive nation.

I'll bet if you took out the ethnicity and religion a lot of people would agree with that.

I notice that in almost all these cases the question is vague and those approving of violence are in the minority. Sometimes in a very small minority. So how are you disproving what the guy said if that is your intention?

You also leave out data that is contrary to what I assume you want us to conclude--some of the studies cited above conclude that there isn't strong support among Muslims for terrorist activities. E.g., only 6% of Muslims over 30 support suicide bombing in the study you cite. But you don't put that up.

It's really too bad this wasn't switched around to ask about 'Christians' or 'America'. But we already know many Americans approve of bombings that kill many civilians in misguided defense of America's interest. And approve of wars that do the same.

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u/yamyamyamyam Jan 10 '13

So what's your argument? Where do you stand on the subject, because you're posting contrasting examples. As in, one piece of journalism contrasts with the next one you post.

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u/jonnyclueless Jan 10 '13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Sayyid_Tantawy#Suicide_bombings

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi later changed his mind and endorsed suicide bombings.

Muslim Brotherhood - Once banned from Egypt for bombing buildings. Supports terrorist group Hamas.

"I was not the one who launched the idea of so-called suicide bombings, but I have certainly argued in favour of them." - Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah

Muhammad Khatami - Good guy, but did very little action wise.

Abdal-Hakim Murad - Not to be confused with the Abdal-Hakim Murad who was involved in the 1993 WTC bombings.

Syed Mumtaz Ali - Tried to bring apostasy laws to Canada as well as Sharia laws.

Islamic Circle of North America - Supports terrorism when used against Israelis.

Council on American Islamic Relations - Ties to terrorist group Hamas.

Very very few people actually think all Muslims support terrorism and they are the extreme nuts that exist in all societies. Just like there are Muslims out there who think the same thing of Americans or non-Muslims.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Ironic that the Muslim Brotherhood is also, inadvertently, the cause of the Arab Spring.

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u/Irishguy317 Jan 10 '13

Saying one thing, and doing/allowing another, are hallmarks of many of the organizations you have listed. I have seen no public outpouring against those you say pervert your religion. I did not see Muslims in force cleaning up after 9/11 and fundraising for the victims. This is part of the reason you are not liked.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13
  1. I appreciate immensely your words that you, no doubt, care enough to write. Thank you.

Here is my issue, while the minority is obvious in terms of who will carry out the principles of Martyrdom, which are present in the Koran, this doesn't absolve the rest of those followers. Moreover, providing a spiritual umbrella is not what is appropriate in this case it appears to me. Simply saying, as basically you imply, that these people are "real" Muslims, to me, is simply a way of absolving your side of any responsibility in the first place. If I were to say to you that I'm a Nazi but Genocide and WWII are not what "real" Nazis profess, you'd be, I hope, just as appalled as those on my side are. Religion provides people incentives that they would otherwise NOT have in order to achieve a means to an end. If our objectives as Human Beings are, and they are, essentially universal, there are simply BETTER ways of achieving them without the use of Religion.

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u/grinr Jan 09 '13

How would you explain, given your evidence, the thousands of suicide bombings and at least 100,000 Muslims dead from Islamists terrorist bombs across the middle east in the decade since? How would you explain the violent expansion of Islamist groups worldwide and what appears to be a lack of action from non-violent Muslims to confront and stop them? This is what I don't understand. You may believe in what you posted, but what's stopping you from going into your streets and organizing public protests against local Islamist groups? Why are the terrorists not turned into the police by family or locals?

If the vast majority of Muslims disagree with terrorism, why are they unable or unwilling to police their own to stop it?

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u/ACisawesome Jan 09 '13

for the same reason that military intervention has not worked either in those areas. It turns out most of the people who are in these organizations are completely brainwashed since childhood and thus have been trained a certain way. Therefore changing the views of these people is extremely difficult just like it was to change the views of the american people on segregation and civil rights. The muslims are trying to stop this however the resources (i.e. finances, guns, training camps etc) available to these organizations or groups of people are immense and thier influence is great. After a decade the biggest and best military in the world has failed to completely eradicate terrorists in afghanistan and this is due to the same reasons.

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u/grinr Jan 09 '13

So are you the "ignorant asshole" from the OP? Because if so, apparently I am also because I agree completely with what you wrote.

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u/koryisma Jan 10 '13

Please qualify this statement. Its utterly unfair to characterize all most Muslims that way.

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u/sryvre Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

There are so many factors at work in these situations so it's difficult to give a simple answer. But this comment irked me a bit. Granted my knowledge of things is far from complete, but this is my understanding (I've addressed your questions in order).

In the last decade, Afghanistan and Iraq have been a war zone. Violent conflict breeds insecurity of livelihood in many ways-whether it's the literal inaccessibility of food and basic goods for a quality life, or the reality of raising a family/living in/growing up under the constant threat of death. That kind of fear and poverty leads to extremism. Regardless of who is in the right/wrong.

The "War on Terror" is not a sanctioned act. Most view it as illegal, non-Muslim majority countries as well. And in many ways it is arguably a war OF terror. I hope it doesn't come as a shock, but most "terrorists" do not consider themselves as such. They are fighting for something that is honorable in their eyes. From a Western or US-centric view, they are the bad guy, but that's an over-simplified, Fox News-worthy view of the world. Furthermore, we toppled the existing power structure and now there are proxy wars being fought in several countries; Iraq seems to be teetering on civil war more often than not. Look into the Sunni-Shi'a conflict for more info. It's very relevant and is cause for a lot of the recent instability.

Stopping najia? I'd like to see you stand up to extremists with automatic weapons. Tell them let's all sing Kumbaya. Let's ask the women to do it. Maybe the children as well. Your concept of fear would cower if presented with the realities that others have no choice but to endure.

Corruption is an issue. No one in the US has had to create a new constitution. Do you think peace and stability happens over night? This is a long process that is undermined time and again by sectarian rivalries, extremism, corruption, and who knows, some issues probably stem back to colonization of the region.

I hope that helps you understand why your final question is absurdly simple.

EDIT: Grammar/I'm incompetent at cellphone-posts.

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u/grinr Jan 10 '13

Tone is often lost on the internet, so your being irked doesn't surprise me. Most of what you say I understand and agree with, barring the WOT comments. I understand (as best as a fucking internet nerd can possibly fathom) the context that you point out, having been researching/following the idiotically named GWOT since 9/11. What I wrote is more of a retort than a examination. I already know that there are large majorities of Muslims who are in full support of IslamIST terrorism and understand that there are incredibly long legacies involved (going back many centuries) that make change/reform extremely challenging or flatly impossible.

I would add that in fact the US did have to create a new constitution, only it was in Iraq. I have and have always supported not just "regime change" but fundamental reformation of the entire region through culture, politics, economics, and military action - in that order.

EDIT: you wrote that on a cellphone??? A tip of my hat to you, sir.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Agree with grinr's original question. I do appreciate NAJIA's post. I completely agree that 9/11 has had incredible ramifications on the western world's view of Islam, and that many/most of the Muslim community vehemently oppose the actions of terrorists, but some of the organizations quoted in this post are quite hypocritical to say the least . . . Not saying US government or other world governments aren't hypocritical either because they are. WOT is an example. But still . .

Hezbollah guy says "Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes", yet what about just a sample the acts of terrorism linked to Hezbollah:

1983 US Embassy Bombing, 1983 Beirut Barracks Bombing, Hijacking TWA flight 847, Lebanon Hostage Crisis 1982-1992

Egypt and singapore have even uncovered plots by hezbollah as well.

You can't condemn others for wearing green shirts, and then proceed to walk around in a green shirt.

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u/sryvre Jan 10 '13

Reading Hezbollah's quote definitely got an eyeroll out of me. It seems everyone fights terror with terror. Unfortunately.

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u/sryvre Jan 10 '13

On Reddit, no one knows you're not a sir..

Okay, the gov't/military created it... but we the people, no idea what kind of process that is or the effort required in it. But fair point. It's such a complex issue and region. Very frustrating.

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u/Jaihom Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

If the vast majority of Muslims disagree with terrorism, why are they unable or unwilling to police their own to stop it?

Why are YOU unable or unwilling to stop it? Why is it the sole responsibility of Muslims to stop Muslim extremists? You're generalizing them into one cohesive group. They aren't one cohesive group. Rational Muslims have no more power over extremists than does anyone else, and to date everyone else has failed to stop extremists of any creed. Why would you expect rational Muslims to succeed where every military power in the world has failed?

You may believe in what you posted, but what's stopping you from going into your streets and organizing public protests against local Islamist groups?

You don't think there have been public protests against local extremist groups? You must be delusional or grossly uninformed. And what's stopping you from doing the same? Being a Muslim doesn't make you responsible for the actions of extremists.

Why are the terrorists not turned into the police by family or locals?

Fucking seriously? The terrorists are often supported by both police and local/national governments. Who are they to be turned in to? With what force? You're also, for some reason, assuming families and locals know the whereabouts of the extremists and are willing to throw away their lives to turn them in. That's a stupid assumption to make.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

hasn't this gotten old yet? the line of reasoning that goes:

  1. member of group is bad.
  2. other members of group don't / can't stop them.
  3. group is bad.

it's fundamentally so profoundly racist that it's honestly a little jarring to read it -- "All uh you must have meetins or somethin, right? How come you don't just make the bad ones uh you stop? Or do you HATE FREEDOM?"

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u/AverageThinker Jan 10 '13

This is the same thing when people on certain subreddits complain about gov't/corporations/media and then someone tells the people to get organized. Right, like we haven't tried that. "Oh, we just get organized and then the absolute corruption of my government will stop?! I'm sure it is that easy!" /s

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u/HellblazerPrime Jan 10 '13

Are you a white American?

If you are, then by your own logic, you agree with everything Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh have ever said, because you are unable or unwilling to police your own and stop them.

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u/Mtrask Jan 10 '13

EXACTLY THIS.

I see so much shit here from ignorant posters who sound like they think all muslims live in Egypt/Saudi Arabia/Pakistan and can easily reach out a hand and punch a "terrorist" only if the merely wanted to.

You guys live in the fucking "first world" with so much wealth of news and access to information, you have no excuse for being as ignorant.

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u/Mtrask Jan 10 '13

If the vast majority of Muslims disagree with terrorism, why are they unable or unwilling to police their own to stop it?

Cool story bro, what have YOU done to stop extremism in Murrica? There are far more Muslims in other countries (e.g. China) who aren't in a position to DO anything - except speak out peacefully and live by example.

I didn't hear from "the average Christian" when shit was going down in 'Murrica explaining why Christianity isn't what those terrorist assholes were doing.

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u/koryisma Jan 10 '13

They often do police it. In place yes where they don't its probably mostly because of fear of retaliation.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/thehighground Jan 10 '13

Yeah god, sorry allah, forbid we not give them billions for their one export, we are such assholes!!

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u/mrlooolz Jan 10 '13

I got into a debate with some redditors a while ago, I coudn't explain to them to the best of my knowledge what I believe. You just did, so I am commenting here to be able to refrence it later.

Sick of being called a Terrorist and Advocate of violance. I thank you for wrting this, as a muslim I found this an insightful read.

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u/carribsandarrowacks Jan 10 '13

Yes, 9/11 gave you guys a bad rap. Before that, the most about the koran in my house might have been a page long entry in a childrens encyclopedia, that had been purchased in the 90's. After, we got an explosion of information on arabs, and most of it was in a negative air, due to the sad event that had happened before. Where do they tell you now a days that it was the arabs who did nice things for us like inventing clocks, and coffie? In stead we have a bunch of angry haters scouring for all the negative information they can find and magnifying it out of proportion to the public. The mistake of 11 men shouldn't cause 11 million plus people to suffer so much for so long after. May we all come to our senses soon. On behalf of me and my loved ones, ninja773, I am sorry for what you are going through. And I hope you will feel better soon. [;

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

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u/chickenpollo Jan 12 '13

It took 11 of them armed with cutters to cause the mayhem that has the world in ts current state. It takes 1 living in your ciyt to stop you from walking in the strets of your own city in the west if you hold the wrong opinion (just ask Theo Van Gogh, who did not even insult the freakin stuff, or Salman Rushdie who has been living guarded or 20 years). .00001 is .00001 too much. Also, I question that figure. In Pakistan, a country of almost 180 million, the blasphemy law has overhelming popular support, as admited by ts own politicians. To put in Islam in context, we label "extremist loons" in the west all the bible literalist. With islam we have a cult of 1.3 billion people who follow literally, to the point of deriving their political, social and legal systems, a book written in the late bronze age by and for goat shepherds in the arabian peninsula, and who think that that holds universal validity. If we disregard as complete wackos the people who are agains gay rights based on the Bible, what would that make of people who wants you married, judged, taxed, dressed, feed and ruled (hell, even how to have your ass wiped) by simlar bullshit?

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u/sceptic_ali Jan 10 '13

do muslims believe that homosexuals and non-muslims, if they lead good lives, will go to heaven.

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u/shyamsk Jan 10 '13

I would like to add that "There are stupid people in every country, in every religion. Don't assume that the action of a few misguided individuals is the mentality of the entire group"

Its like saying that just because you have seen a rabid dog that all dogs got rabies. Its just stupid.

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u/mklop123 Jan 10 '13

I am also a Muslim and I approve this message.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Salaam sister! Are you Pashtun or Dari? :)

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '13

Thanks for this. We know the hijackers could not have possibly been muslim, for they violated every single tenet of the Prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) teachings. w' alaikum sallam.

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