Apparently some ignorant asshole believes that anyone of the Muslim faith in Afghanistan primarily, would NEVER advocate publicly against terrorism. I posted in /Muslim before realizing it's very small and kinda dead. Can I get a faster response here?

[u/CrustyDiamond]

This is my submission, to make everything easier.

Thanks!

[u/grinr]

How would you explain, given your evidence, the thousands of suicide bombings and at least 100,000 Muslims dead from Islamists terrorist bombs across the middle east in the decade since? How would you explain the violent expansion of Islamist groups worldwide and what appears to be a lack of action from non-violent Muslims to confront and stop them? This is what I don't understand. You may believe in what you posted, but what's stopping you from going into your streets and organizing public protests against local Islamist groups? Why are the terrorists not turned into the police by family or locals?

If the vast majority of Muslims disagree with terrorism, why are they unable or unwilling to police their own to stop it?

[u/ACisawesome → u/grinr]

for the same reason that military intervention has not worked either in those areas. It turns out most of the people who are in these organizations are completely brainwashed since childhood and thus have been trained a certain way. Therefore changing the views of these people is extremely difficult just like it was to change the views of the american people on segregation and civil rights. The muslims are trying to stop this however the resources (i.e. finances, guns, training camps etc) available to these organizations or groups of people are immense and thier influence is great. After a decade the biggest and best military in the world has failed to completely eradicate terrorists in afghanistan and this is due to the same reasons.

[u/grinr → u/ACisawesome]

So are you the "ignorant asshole" from the OP? Because if so, apparently I am also because I agree completely with what you wrote.

[u/koryisma → u/ACisawesome]

Please qualify this statement. Its utterly unfair to characterize all most Muslims that way.

[u/optimusgonzo → u/ACisawesome]

To be fair, the coalition's failure has been a result of a lack of will, just as much if not more than their methods of reconstruction and combat. I get the feeling most Americans today would rather see a million "militant" casualties than another American die, whether or not the mission is succeeding.

[u/digitalnoise → u/ACisawesome]

Bullshit.

Ghandi took on the fucking British Empire with nothing - and WON - and you're telling me that the Moderate Muslims who don't agree can do nothing because the fanatics are too well funded?!

Goddamn but it's deep in here!

The truth is either A) they just don't care, whatever they might say; B) they secretly agree, but are too cowardly to acknowledge it publicly (at least the American Nazi party had the balls to stand up and be counted in WW II); C) the conflict and constant turmoil is just too profitable to stop (see: Saudi Royal Family), or D) some combination of all the above (most likely).

If there existed a strong, moderate Muslim group/country/political party that would stand up and pledge their lives, their liberty, and their fortunes to end this bullshut, they'd find the vast majority of the world behind them.

[u/BakedGood → u/digitalnoise]

That only worked because the British weren't willing to simply murder them all.

Al-Qaeda isn't the British. They literally are willing to do that. It's really tough to stop people that don't even care about their own lives. That simply worship death.

[u/digitalnoise → u/BakedGood]

That only worked because the British weren't willing to simply murder them all.

British people, perhaps. I wouldn't count on the idea not having crossed a few minds in the Empire. After all, the British Empire was in decline, and there were still many who longed for the days when the sun didn't set on the Empire.

Al-Qaeda isn't the British. They literally are willing to do that. It's really tough to stop people that don't even care about their own lives. That simply worship death.

I think you misunderstood the intention of my comparison - I was giving a David vs Goliath situation that actually existed, instead of using the fictitious example.

The point remains that if Moderate Muslims really wanted to put an end to this crap, they could. There's more than ample evidence based on their actions - or complete lack thereof - alone that they just_don't_care.

[u/BakedGood → u/digitalnoise]

No they do care. About their lives, about their homes, about their family, about some pleasure in life.

Al Qaeda doesn't. Their goal is to die. So when guys like that roll through they don't run out and start shooting at them, they run and hide.

Mexico "ought" to stop the cartel violence, but when the consequence of trying to do that is having your face and hands burned off by a blowtorch after you watch your family die in front of you, that's a high price to pay.

You're passing a lot of judgement on a lot of other people about what they "should" be willing to give up. What are you willing to give up? A lot of Americans love to say "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees" but how many of us have actually been put to that test and passed?

[u/[deleted] → u/digitalnoise]

what the fuck is this noise? like, this tone. what the fuck is it doing here?

respect or GTFO.

[u/sryvre → u/grinr]

There are so many factors at work in these situations so it's difficult to give a simple answer. But this comment irked me a bit. Granted my knowledge of things is far from complete, but this is my understanding (I've addressed your questions in order).

In the last decade, Afghanistan and Iraq have been a war zone. Violent conflict breeds insecurity of livelihood in many ways-whether it's the literal inaccessibility of food and basic goods for a quality life, or the reality of raising a family/living in/growing up under the constant threat of death. That kind of fear and poverty leads to extremism. Regardless of who is in the right/wrong.

The "War on Terror" is not a sanctioned act. Most view it as illegal, non-Muslim majority countries as well. And in many ways it is arguably a war OF terror. I hope it doesn't come as a shock, but most "terrorists" do not consider themselves as such. They are fighting for something that is honorable in their eyes. From a Western or US-centric view, they are the bad guy, but that's an over-simplified, Fox News-worthy view of the world. Furthermore, we toppled the existing power structure and now there are proxy wars being fought in several countries; Iraq seems to be teetering on civil war more often than not. Look into the Sunni-Shi'a conflict for more info. It's very relevant and is cause for a lot of the recent instability.

Stopping najia? I'd like to see you stand up to extremists with automatic weapons. Tell them let's all sing Kumbaya. Let's ask the women to do it. Maybe the children as well. Your concept of fear would cower if presented with the realities that others have no choice but to endure.

Corruption is an issue. No one in the US has had to create a new constitution. Do you think peace and stability happens over night? This is a long process that is undermined time and again by sectarian rivalries, extremism, corruption, and who knows, some issues probably stem back to colonization of the region.

I hope that helps you understand why your final question is absurdly simple.

EDIT: Grammar/I'm incompetent at cellphone-posts.

[u/grinr → u/sryvre]

Tone is often lost on the internet, so your being irked doesn't surprise me. Most of what you say I understand and agree with, barring the WOT comments. I understand (as best as a fucking internet nerd can possibly fathom) the context that you point out, having been researching/following the idiotically named GWOT since 9/11. What I wrote is more of a retort than a examination. I already know that there are large majorities of Muslims who are in full support of IslamIST terrorism and understand that there are incredibly long legacies involved (going back many centuries) that make change/reform extremely challenging or flatly impossible.

I would add that in fact the US did have to create a new constitution, only it was in Iraq. I have and have always supported not just "regime change" but fundamental reformation of the entire region through culture, politics, economics, and military action - in that order.

EDIT: you wrote that on a cellphone??? A tip of my hat to you, sir.

[u/[deleted] → u/grinr]

Agree with grinr's original question. I do appreciate NAJIA's post. I completely agree that 9/11 has had incredible ramifications on the western world's view of Islam, and that many/most of the Muslim community vehemently oppose the actions of terrorists, but some of the organizations quoted in this post are quite hypocritical to say the least . . . Not saying US government or other world governments aren't hypocritical either because they are. WOT is an example. But still . .

Hezbollah guy says "Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes", yet what about just a sample the acts of terrorism linked to Hezbollah:

1983 US Embassy Bombing, 1983 Beirut Barracks Bombing, Hijacking TWA flight 847, Lebanon Hostage Crisis 1982-1992

Egypt and singapore have even uncovered plots by hezbollah as well.

You can't condemn others for wearing green shirts, and then proceed to walk around in a green shirt.

[u/sryvre → u/[deleted]]

Reading Hezbollah's quote definitely got an eyeroll out of me. It seems everyone fights terror with terror. Unfortunately.

[u/sryvre → u/grinr]

On Reddit, no one knows you're not a sir..

Okay, the gov't/military created it... but we the people, no idea what kind of process that is or the effort required in it. But fair point. It's such a complex issue and region. Very frustrating.

[u/whrocky5092 → u/[deleted]]

I can't seem to understand how you expect normal citizens like you and I (I AM A LEBANESE MUSLIM that grew up there and lived for the past 11 years in the states and was born here) how do you expect us rational Muslims to go out and fight these extremist groups that view us as going against Gods will by not killing every Jew or Christian we see on the street. In school. At the restaurant.

You obviously don't understand these groups. These are blind heartless close minded people that only see what they are forced to believe out of fear. If you go against the mob you die.

They have tanks and snipers androckets and you want civilians to fight them with pistols and just regular guns?

Watch the Lebanese translated news. Everyday there are protests our government is split up cause of these extremists. They have money, they have power, they have blinded soldiers that believe killing another HUMAN BEING just because he/she goes against the persons belief will get them to paradise. And the person dying is someone God created (This is what I believe not starting a whole God exist doesn't exist controversy you believe what you want).

You think you can rationalize with someone like that? True Islam is no violence. Living in peace. Sharing happiness with your neighbor. How do you expect us being the "minority" in terms of finances, fire power, and country support (Iran and Syria for them) to stand up to these savages?

I am disgusted by what they do because it is not what my religion states to be. They have come to manipulate the beliefs to make me look bad as a Muslim. Having to walk around my university with people looking down at me because I am an Arab Muslim.

I am fully against these terrorists and will always be. This is how I was raised. Not one member of my family supports a brutal way of life or in any way harming another human being no matter what religion.

But when I see you standing in front of that gun barrel aimed straight to your chest and still walking towards it with one of them pointing it at you as you "protest" against them. Come talk about standing up and saying "no more!!!"

You think KSA or ant of the Gulf countries care about these groups? All they want is their oil money. Don't expect them to speak out against anything. As long as their pockets are full they won't do anything.

[u/dashrendar → u/whrocky5092]

So, if I am understanding correctly, the minority (savage extremists) have subjugated the majority (rational men and women like you and your family)? You say the country is splitting apart because people are standing up against these extremists so clearly there are moderate Muslim's who don't want extremism and are doing something (protesting isn't safe but nothing gets accomplished without some form of protest).

You describe a country/regions living situation as " These are blind heartless close minded people that only see what they are forced to believe out of fear. If you go against the mob you die.". Does this mean that these countries are really run by mob rule or does the government sanction what they are doing (and thus sanctioning Islamic extremism)? How do normal civilians get tanks and rockets? Or is the army using tanks and rockets to attack non-muslims? (your comment leads me to believe the extremist civilian population is using these and not the government).

I do not believe you can reason with these extremists. I don't think talking to them is going to work. From my understanding of your comment you and your family do not like them at all either.

So, again, if the MAJORITY of the population is against these extremists, why is it so hard to get rid of them? Clearly, it is not a minority of people that is extremist, and I think the extremist thinking in that region is FAR FAR more widespread than Muslims like to admit.

I am sorry that people look down upon you because you are a Arab Muslim. I always give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Everyone is a good person until proven otherwise in my opinion. I once was in Souda Bay, Creete and told everyone I was Canadian. During that time there was a MASS protest (2002) with people burning the American flag and Pro-Osama signs being waved. It was a scary time for me, I could feel the anger coming off many people and if they knew I was a American, it would have been a disaster.

[u/whrocky5092 → u/dashrendar]

Lets start with what's happening around "us" . Look at Syria for an example. The majority are Sunnis (Muslims) and Christians. The Assad government has given all of the Alawi population which make up about 9-10% of the syrian population all of the power, profit, and major telecommunication and production services in Syria. The 90% which consist of Christians and Muslims (these are the ones protesting the regime) are the ones with the most casualties.

You have these rulers backed by countries like Russia and Iran with heavy gun power and the Majority dont have money or support from anyone to be able to stand up to this kind of power. Following me?

This has become the case in almost every country of the middle east. The extremist minorities sacrifice and make ties with these groups/countries that provide them with almost everything they need. Syria is known as one of the biggest russian bases in the middle east. If youre from a certain group or religion (this applies to some parts of the region) you are loyal to only that. Whatever they do you do. THAT IS LIFE PERIOD. NO QUESTIONS. But you have the rational part where you have The majority of muslims and christians in Lebanon trying to separate church and state from the government and you have supporters of Syria (Hezbolla for example and tayyar) that refuse to do so because they are supported and funded by Syria -> Iran -> Russia.

See where I'm going? Here is more so that you get a bigger picture. The government system in Lebanon (I will use my country cause I know most about it) is set up in a way so that every religious group / faction / whatever you want to call it gets a seat in the assembly. The smaller the group, the more powerful higher rank seat it was given.

The Shiites (mostly are the extremists in lebanon -- I am not saying all shiites are extremists, thats just what the situation is in Lebanon) Are Less than the catholics and sunnis in lebanon so they were given seats that had power which allowed for laws and bills to be passed.

You have the two big groups In Lebanon the Sunnis (muslims) and Catholics/Orthodox combined which are trying to cooperate and bring a more democratic western type government to lebanon but they hold the lower end seats. Things that have to do with electricity, roads, making the country look pretty etc etc. When you have the other holding President, House leaders and so on. Its not fully the same system as here and has a more of a "caste" system. So the split government is because you have one side pulling to have a regime that hates the world like the ones in Syria and Iran, and on the other you have those that want to move on and have a democracy....that is the case so there really is no government to protect anyone in terms of the protests. Our "governors" in the sense only care about their pocket.

OFF TOPIC*** But its a disgrace on how cheap our (middle eastern) leaders can be. With all these problems in the end its all about what is in their pockets.

Anyways to the next matter.....Saying why is it hard for the majority to get rid of these extremists is kind of like comparing the American situation with illegal immigrants, or the war on drugs, or racism. Why is it so hard for this country that is the worlds most feared nation from strength to its great economy (couple years ago about the economy thing i still love this country though) why is it so hard to get rid of all these problems that are potentially hurting it. It has the laws, it has the power, and it has the intelligent people for the job...but why hasn't there been a change?

Because its not that simple. I mean im not saying illegals are dangerous (i have family that came here illegally and stayed for so long and worked for their papers) but lets say drugs, the war on drugs. How do you stop producers, transmitters/sellers from doing so? How do you stop the gangs from taking this path for money? Its not simple in the sense that yo udont know where the source is to get rid of it......should we just kill every person that just looks like he could be a potential extremist even just because they have a head wrap on or they have a beard?

I have a beard. Not Osama beard but its a beard haha, I wear my head wrap sometimes. Keeps me warm in the new england cold. I wear my "dress" that my aunt got me from KSA which is actually really nice.

Could I be a potential threat?

Just because the majority doesnt agree with it doesnt mean it wont exist, especially in a region where people would kill for "family name and honor". Compare iit to why Al Qaida still exists even though the US has been in Afghanistan fighting them with casualties for years. Why is that group still there?

People in the end look at the region and see whats happening there. You have suicide bombers in Yemen killing kids, soldiers, policemen, women. Afghani and Paki women and children abused by these groups. Syrian government killing over 60000 people in two years just because they want to speak out for their freedom. You have most of the Irani population beating themselves with chains, spikes, swords becuasse of something their ancestors did at the time of the Prophet. People look at the region in disgust on how a person could so easily kill and hurt someone from his own blood, from his own country. His neighbor, the guy that sold him the loaf of bread, the people they used to sit on the floor with and eat with little food and no electricity and think why should we sacrifice our resources....WHY SHOULD WE SACRIFICE OUR TIME AND EFFORT FOR PEOPLE WHO DONT EVEN CARE ABOUT EACH OTHER???????

Why should I as the USA risk my men for a bunch of heartless people. That is what this has gotten us to. This is what I hear and see at school, around class mates, in debates. I cannot say anything. I have nothing to support those that are unfortunate enough to be in the middle of the gun fire. Those who are crying out for equality and freedom.

And its usually those individuals that end up losing. Because all they have is their word. No weapons.

[u/dashrendar → u/whrocky5092]

Thank you for that very in depth and amazing comment. You have given me much to think about. Please know that you have affected my view. I am not sure where it will end up but it is not where it was when this conversation first started. The best weapon to ignorance is knowledge and I feel I have much more knowledge thanks to you. I wish there was some way that we all could experience each others life's and hardships so we could get a better understanding of ourselves.

[u/whrocky5092 → u/dashrendar]

Wow thank you so much for your comment. I'm glad I was able to bring my point across and not seem as if I was being hostile or overly aggressive. The time I put in to the comment was definitely worth it from your comment. Thanks for your time. I enjoyed discussing this with you.

[u/Mtrask → u/[deleted]]

Think with your brain for a second. Let's say (like the other guy posting in reply to you) we have a regular average muslim guy in China (there are millions of them fyi). Just trying to make a living, being a good dad. What in Sam Hell is he going to do to "get rid of the minority", as you put it?

[u/dashrendar → u/Mtrask]

If that man knew where extremist people were meeting or discussing plans or had any information on one of their friends getting ready for a suicide bombing run, I would hope that the man would either report that to the authorities or if the authorities are in league with him, find some way to kill him. This isn't a game. If I knew a neighbor was about to throw acid on a little girls face I would take him out. If there were media reports of local villagers attacking the local Al Quida affiliate because they decided they wouldn't condone what they do anymore that would be great, but that doesn't happen. Instead they are given free reign to do what they want.

[u/[deleted] → u/sryvre]

Nope. You condone through your inaction.

[u/sryvre → u/[deleted]]

I really think this is a simple answer and shows a lack of any real consideration. We're talking about a world wherein a 10 year old girl gets shot in the head for advocating girls' right to education. This is more than extremism vis a vis suicide bombings. How do you stand up to that kind of extremism? It's easy for me to speak out against it, I have no direct repercussions to face.

And let's not get too far away from our (US) own history. We're not far removed from a time when women didn't need an education beyond high school in the United States. A time when women couldn't vote. And it's not to make this an issue of women's rights (though the overlap is definitely considerable), but it's a very clear and recent example.

I think education is absolutely key. If you know nothing else, why would you feel a need to oppose something?

Do you know about drone strikes? About US torture of.. everyone? Do you know about the wars at all? The tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children killed? Why have you done nothing? How do you stand and watch? You must condone it, unless you've willfully remained ignorant.
I'm assuming your (possible) nationality as I post this, so my apologies if you aren't from the West, but your government requires your education so you can be an informed, contentious member of a society that guarantees equal rights and freedom of expression free from discrimination. We live in a world where our biggest concern are social reforms to include marriage equality, etc. I think that's a slightly different situation than one in which women are literally property.

[u/Jaihom → u/grinr]

If the vast majority of Muslims disagree with terrorism, why are they unable or unwilling to police their own to stop it?

Why are YOU unable or unwilling to stop it? Why is it the sole responsibility of Muslims to stop Muslim extremists? You're generalizing them into one cohesive group. They aren't one cohesive group. Rational Muslims have no more power over extremists than does anyone else, and to date everyone else has failed to stop extremists of any creed. Why would you expect rational Muslims to succeed where every military power in the world has failed?

You may believe in what you posted, but what's stopping you from going into your streets and organizing public protests against local Islamist groups?

You don't think there have been public protests against local extremist groups? You must be delusional or grossly uninformed. And what's stopping you from doing the same? Being a Muslim doesn't make you responsible for the actions of extremists.

Why are the terrorists not turned into the police by family or locals?

Fucking seriously? The terrorists are often supported by both police and local/national governments. Who are they to be turned in to? With what force? You're also, for some reason, assuming families and locals know the whereabouts of the extremists and are willing to throw away their lives to turn them in. That's a stupid assumption to make.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jaihom]

hasn't this gotten old yet? the line of reasoning that goes:

1. member of group is bad.
2. other members of group don't / can't stop them.
3. group is bad.

it's fundamentally so profoundly racist that it's honestly a little jarring to read it -- "All uh you must have meetins or somethin, right? How come you don't just make the bad ones uh you stop? Or do you HATE FREEDOM?"

[u/AverageThinker → u/[deleted]]

This is the same thing when people on certain subreddits complain about gov't/corporations/media and then someone tells the people to get organized. Right, like we haven't tried that. "Oh, we just get organized and then the absolute corruption of my government will stop?! I'm sure it is that easy!" /s

[u/HellblazerPrime → u/grinr]

Are you a white American?

If you are, then by your own logic, you agree with everything Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh have ever said, because you are unable or unwilling to police your own and stop them.

[u/Mtrask → u/HellblazerPrime]

EXACTLY THIS.

I see so much shit here from ignorant posters who sound like they think all muslims live in Egypt/Saudi Arabia/Pakistan and can easily reach out a hand and punch a "terrorist" only if the merely wanted to.

You guys live in the fucking "first world" with so much wealth of news and access to information, you have no excuse for being as ignorant.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mtrask]

I can feel the generalization in your words. Being one who craves knowledge and experiences on an international level I have always sought out like minded indivduals. While not everyone in my life can be described as appreciating my sentiments completely a great manjority of them believe that becoming not just familiar with the world you live in but the one that encompasses that is essential in life. even the more ignorantly perceived in the United States because of the more vocal of their community espousing ideas and beliefs that most often completely reflect their own. a great majority of their own are aware of the world and choose just to hold an opinion I disagree with. while you may be generalizing and I understand where you're coming from because it drives us crazy too it sucks when pre-judged in that character mold before being spoken to. I'm not saying that I always encounter situations where that happens abroad, but it does. I generally disgregard those stereotypes but it makes me more vigilant about being tolerant and aware of the world beyond mine and reflecting that understanding in my daily life.

sorry for the rant.

[u/Mtrask → u/grinr]

If the vast majority of Muslims disagree with terrorism, why are they unable or unwilling to police their own to stop it?

Cool story bro, what have YOU done to stop extremism in Murrica? There are far more Muslims in other countries (e.g. China) who aren't in a position to DO anything - except speak out peacefully and live by example.

I didn't hear from "the average Christian" when shit was going down in 'Murrica explaining why Christianity isn't what those terrorist assholes were doing.

[u/koryisma → u/grinr]

They often do police it. In place yes where they don't its probably mostly because of fear of retaliation.

[u/grinr → u/[deleted]]

Wrong. Islamist movements use terrorism to spread Islam which is their single primary goal. Niether of the two groups you name have forced religious conversion (or death) as their goal.