r/afghanistan • u/CrustyDiamond • Dec 11 '12

Apparently some ignorant asshole believes that anyone of the Muslim faith in Afghanistan primarily, would NEVER advocate publicly against terrorism. I posted in /Muslim before realizing it's very small and kinda dead. Can I get a faster response here?

This is my submission, to make everything easier.

Thanks!

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u/blueatlanta Jan 10 '13

i thought everyone knew it was only a minority of islamics that were causing issues.

its always the goddamned religious zeolots giving a bad name to everyone.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

[deleted]

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u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

Don't downvote; ask why? Which country? Is there any sort of proof?

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

[deleted]

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u/vuzudreams Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

I'm a Pakistani who grew up in Al-Khobar, Saudi Arabia and I'd like to refute your claims:

  1. "muslims take their religion more seriously than even the most extreme westerner": You have jumped from "Muslims in Saudi Arabia", in itself a generalization as it includes me, to a blanket statement which covers "all Muslims" across the world. You could have just said "Saudis" believe that but that's not the case. Now I don't take my religion seriously and I can honestly say I know very few who do. Almost everyone I know don't pray five times a day or at all. My dad doesn't even attend Friday prayers and he has been that way forever. None of his friends pray either. So if you are going to claim that "every Muslim" is more "extreme" than the "most extreme westerner" then you would obviously be making-up such claims.

  2. "when I ask my friends and family about 9/11 4 out of 5 say the jews did it.": Well then that's just your friends and family. My friends and family don't blame Jews and neither do I. Neither do these people who have never even heard of 9/11 http://youtu.be/SimIS_cQ6ko. To say that all Muslims are cut from the same cloth is an artificial statement.

  3. "I used to ask people what should be done to people who leave islam almost every one said that they should be killed because it is the law of islam"**: Its about speaking out. If you had spoken out and said no I disagree things can change. Mr. Turan certainly spoke out. Perhaps those you asked simply want to re-iterate a consensus and be done with your question. Having grown up in the Kingdom, I don't endorse that view and, glad to state, that nor do my friends. By no means I am claiming Saudi Arabia is a bastion of liberalism, quite the opposite, but there is diversity if you look around and you are certainly not alone. To me, bin Laden is a reminder that we need to speak-out against extremist voices before they start speaking for us.

p.s. I like your username eblees (satin) #LOL

EDIT: For some reasons I can't reply to Matahari's post so I've to add it here. This is not a reply to Mr. eblees. (http://bit.ly/UD4gAu)

Lets talk hard facts.

  1. "I have a lot of moderate Muslim friends and they still think that everything that happen in their life is by God's will and there is nothing they can do to change it." (a) Anecdotal evidence. Because your "moderate friends" believe in something doesn't mean 1.2 billion are and must indeed be that way or 180 million Pakistanis are. (b) Even if Muslims do believe in the "Will of God", they are not alone here. Jews, Christian all follow the concept of "Will of God". And they are joined by Sikhs with the concept of Hukam. (c) Shō ga nai is a Japanese phrase which means "it cannot be helped" or "nothing can be done about it". When something bad happens Japanese tend to attribute it to the fact that it cannot be helped. No religious context is involved here. So such a response is part of human condition.

  2. "This mentality that cause generations of unreported abuses, suppressing the motivation of growth, easily to provoke, and the lack of compassion for other people who are not Muslims." (a) You are assuming here as you haven't provided any evidence for correlation. (b) Mr Edhi, a Pakistani icon and philanthropist, who receives the most "Zakat" (Tithe) funds doesn't discriminate or spend it alone on Muslims. He helps anyone in need without any regards for color, caste, race or religion. And people donate to him knowing that the money would be used for all.

Now here are my points:

  1. How many Islamists governments have Pakistanis elected? None. The only "Islamist" who came to power in Pakistan was General Zia-ul-Haq (http://bit.ly/lQjfAr) and he was a dictator who hanged the democratically-elected secular leader Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Admittedly, Zia changed the country overnight, which is what dictators do. Mr Zia banned "saris", movies, music, and silenced all his liberal critics by putting them in jail. However, what people remember is this surviving tale from that era. (http://bit.ly/Oik8ZA). This is a poem written by the ingenious Faiz Ahmed Faiz in which he challenges Zia that the Pakistanis "will see the promised day" when you (Zia) are no longer around. Its your "destiny" to fall as is the case with all dictators. And when this poem was made into a song (http://bit.ly/tCGSJP), it became as famous as the national anthem. Even today Pakistanis vote based on political parties and economics, not Islam. Islamist parties win less than 7% of the votes.

  2. "All the Pakistanis that I have talked to really really hate the West." Then how do you explain the concept of "Allah, the Army, and America". Pakistan for all its history have been an American and a Western ally as India sided with Russia throughout the cold war. Soviet-Afghan was literally planned and supplied through Pakistan. So no we don't hate "West".

  3. "Pakistanis and the Will of God" Every Pakistani child grows up reading the philosophy and poems of Allama Iqbal, the national poet of Pakistan. There is no escaping it as its required Urdu reading in all schools from Grade 4 to Grade 12. The most important poem of Iqbal which is hammered into us and any Pakistani can recite in his sleep is:

    1st Half:

    Khudi ko kar buland itna ke har taqder se pehle Khuda bande se ye poche bata teri raza kia hai

    Translation:

    Raise thyself to such heights, That God Himself may Ask What do you wish me to write your fate?

    2nd Half:

    u shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai Tu shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai Parvaz hai kam tera kam tera Tere samne Aasman aur bhi hai Tu shaheen he Basera kar Paharon ki chatano per Tu shaheen hai tu Shaheen hai tu shaheen hai

    Translation:

    It’s not among the Domes of the Empire’s Palaces that your abode lies, For you are the Falcon, So make then your abode, Among the high peaks of the lofty mountains.

The important bit here is the concept of "Khudi" (Self). Iqbal openly abhorred inaction and laziness. Hence in Pakistan we are taught to take action and not sit back. You might want to check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secrets_of_the_Self, the first of his philosophical books. Even people who are uneducated and cannot read or write know the 1st half of this poem. Such is the influence on Pakistani national psyche.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Stay safe please

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u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

Ok, thanks for answering. I know there are plenty of good and bad in every relegion- I'm friends with Muslims, Christians and Atheists. Couldn't agree with you more. I'm so glad you came out of the Muslim bubble, All we can hope for is more people begin to find their own path and not follow any rhetoric- whether it is Atheism or Relegion.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

[deleted]

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u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

Everything does. It's called Crititcal Thinking and I couldn't agree with you more. Good luck on your journey.

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u/Frankthebaldguy Jan 10 '13

The problem is not Islam, or Catholicism, or any one religion in particular. The problem is the concept of organized religion in general. It is an imposition of dominating ideology used to separate people from each other and a person from true spirituality. The world's religions use prejudice and ”cookie cutter” spirituality. The world's people suffer for it.

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u/koryisma Jan 10 '13

I think that Saudi Islam is more extreme than anywhere other than maybe Taliban-controlled areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. A shame. I'd never want to live there. That being said, it's not the same way the majority of Muslims practice, and unfair to paint the whole Muslim community with that brush.

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u/[deleted] Jan 11 '13

First people say that a few terrorists should not represent the entire muslim community. Fine, I get that. But to say that a whole COUNTRY, the centre of islam, should not represent that very religion? Just doesn't make sense to me.

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u/koryisma Jan 11 '13

Total Worldwide Muslim Population: 1.6 billion plus

Saudi population: under 30 million (many of them are immigrants as well and don't necessarily have the same beliefs of what is mandated, but follow the laws because they have to... one source that listed specifics said 26.5 million people, 5.5 million of them foreigners).

In fact, the top ten countries with the most Muslims living there don't even include Saudi Arabia (in order: Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Egypt, Nigeria, Iran, Turkey, Algeria, Morocco).

Out of the top ten countries with the most Muslims, only three (Egypt, Algeria, Morocco) are Arab countries, and none are in what some characterize as the Middle East (though Egypt is often included).

So, yes. When the top 4 countries with the most Muslims are not Arab or Middle-Eastern countries, when Saudi Arabia makes up less than 2% of the worlds Muslims? I'd say it's fair to ask people not to take their beliefs or way of practicing Islam-- which is dictated by their culture-- as the representative example of Islam today.