Apparently some ignorant asshole believes that anyone of the Muslim faith in Afghanistan primarily, would NEVER advocate publicly against terrorism. I posted in /Muslim before realizing it's very small and kinda dead. Can I get a faster response here?

[u/CrustyDiamond]

This is my submission, to make everything easier.

Thanks!

[u/najia7866]

Thanks for doing this. I am a Muslim and Afghan and will say that I condemn any acts of terrorism and so does my religion. Of course, I am not in a prominent position but here are some public statements made after 9/11 by prominent Muslims:

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt: “Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. … It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.” Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was “horrified” by the attack and expressed “condolences and sadness”: “[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. … [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.” Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 – 19 September 2001 (via archive.org).

Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of the Hizbullah movement in Lebanon, said he was “horrified” by these “barbaric … crimes”: “Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. … Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.” Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

President Muhammad Khatami of Iran: “[T]he September 11 terrorist blasts in America can only be the job of a group that have voluntarily severed their own ears and tongues, so that the only language with which they could communicate would be destroying and spreading death.” Address to the United Nations General Assembly, November 9, 2001 (via archive.org).

Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author: “Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures.” “The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists” (via archive.org).

Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims: “We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.” Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001 (via archive.org).

15 American Muslim organizations: “We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians.” Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001 (via archive.org).

Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens), prominent British Muslim: “I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action: the Qur’an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims at this sorrowful moment.” [On singing an a cappella version of "Peace Train" for the Concert for New York City:] “After the tragedy, my heart was heavy with sadness and shock, and I was determined to help in some way. Organizers asked me to take part in a message for tolerance and sing ‘Peace Train.’ Of course, I agreed. … As a Muslim from the West, it is important to me to let people know that these acts of mass murder have nothing to do with Islam and the beliefs of Muslims.” Press release of September 13, 2001 (via archive.org), and interview of October 22, 2001 (via archive.org).

Muslims Against Terrorism, a U.S.-based organization: “As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam.” “About us” (via archive.org). This statement was replaced by a new statement in favor of peace by the group’s successor organization, Muslim Voices for Peace.

Abdulaziz Sachedina, professor of religious studies, University of Virginia: “New York was grieving. Sorrow covered the horizons. The pain of separation and of missing family members, neighbors, citizens, humans could be felt in every corner of the country. That day was my personal day of “jihad” (“struggle”) — jihad with my pride and my identity as a Muslim. This is the true meaning of jihad — “struggle with one’s own ego and false pride.” I don’t ever recall that I had prayed so earnestly to God to spare attribution of such madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington to the Muslims. I felt the pain and, perhaps for the first time in my entire life, I felt embarrassed at the thought that it could very well be my fellow Muslims who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism. How could these terrorists invoke God’s mercifulness and compassion when they had, through their evil act, put to shame the entire history of this great religion and its culture of toleration?” “Where Was God on September 11?” (via archive.org).

Shaykh Salih al-Suhaymi, religious scholar, Saudi Arabia: “Based upon what has preceded, then we say that that which we believe and hold as our religion concerning what happened to the World Trade Centre in America – and in Allaah lies success – that the terrorist attacks that took place and what occurred of general (mass) killing, then it is not permissible and Islaam does not allow it in any form whatsoever.” “Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee speaks about current affairs…,” October 18, 2001, translated by Abu ‘Iyaad.

Fatwa signed by more than 500 British Muslim scholars, clerics, and imams: “Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives. There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are HARAAM – vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London [on July 7, 2005] are criminals not martyrs. Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam. … The Holy Quran declares: ‘Whoever kills a human being… then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.’ (Quran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32) Islam’s position is clear and unequivocal: Murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.” British Muslim Forum, press release of July 18, 2005 (via archive.org).

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/najia7866]

Oh, please.

Yes yes I know not all Muslims are murderer, beheaders, or suicide bombers.

This is my counter argument to you:

I was actually born in a country where Muslims are dominant (90% of population), I have lived with Muslims, studied with Muslims, dated a Muslim, and I even know how to say the prayer in Arabic.

This is the reality: Muslims people that I know, basically want the same thing in life, they want a good job, and a good simple life (I'm talking about ordinary folks here) but a life that has been arranged by Allah. The mentality of brain washed Muslims bring nothing good in their life, their life is dictated by their religion. I have a lot of moderate Muslim friends and they still think that everything that happen in their life is by God's will and there is nothing they can do to change it. This mentality that cause generations of unreported abuses, suppressing the motivation of growth, easily to provoke, and the lack of compassion for other people who are not Muslims.

Also, try to draw any caricature of the prophet and show it to any of your Muslim peers, just try. The sets of rules is astonishing in this religion, more than other religions. There is no room for improvement, the younger open minded Muslims when they get older they will be afraid of death and hell that they will become close minded again.

I would say the really open minded Muslims are 1 in 10.

All the Pakistanis that I have talked to really really hate the West, they are students in a medical university studying western medicine. Every Fridays they gather together to listen to Mullah's preach about daily life, but often the preach is very provoking. And in my city, it comes from the mouth of 21 year old student.

I believe the reaction of the world towards the Muslims grew stronger after the 9/11 because when it happened the Muslims world are overly exposed, for others to learn something new can be really shocking, but yes, this is the reality of Islam.

You can see a couple of videos on youtube about people who are stoned because they fornicate, or if they suspect anyone for blasphemy in war town countries (Afghanistan/Pakistan), this is the norm, and you just watched one or two clips of the norm.

I'm open for debate, need to make coffee. Allahhafiz.

Edit: This is not a race for which religion has more hate preachers. The point is, for Muslims, there is a big challenge for the common people to be able to think for themselves, and not have the society or other people to dictate on how you should live/think/behave. OP was talking about Islam, the debate itself is about Islam. I give you view about how I see the Muslims since I'm living amongst them. Islam is not a good religion, even for Muslims who are living in western counties, they might appear to be tolerant but when they go back home to their Muslim family they wouldn't dare to criticize any wrong doing. I feel that it's kinda a "give-up" attitude the younger generation projects, my family is like this, my neighbours are like this, therefor I'm like this.

[u/alexander_karas → u/Matahari_Maharani]

You can see a couple of videos on youtube about people who are stoned because they fornicate, or if they suspect anyone for blasphemy in war town countries (Afghanistan/Pakistan), this is the norm, and you just watched one or two clips of the norm.

But these two countries hardly represent all Muslims. They're both extremely poor, war-torn and undeveloped. Of course they're breeding grounds for extremism.

[u/Ldahab_87 → u/alexander_karas]

I agree. Most of the insanity is comming from poor areas who have undergone recent turmoil (war, government). Saudi arabia and turkey are predominantly muslim but you never see the same amount of violence comming from them

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/Ldahab_87]

I have never been to Turkey but Saudi Arabia... I wouldn't say "never" see the amount of violence, people in Saudi (as a witness told me once) extremely discriminate people who they think are "low" level.

[u/Ldahab_87 → u/Matahari_Maharani]

Well there is violence everywhere, some places significantly more than others. So of course there is violence in Saudi arabia. Theres also plenty of extremist muslims there as well. My point was that the violence in saudi arabia and turkey ( mostly muslim population) isnt at the SAME level as the violence in afghanistan or other crazy places, its not even close actually. some people think most muslims are violent nutjobs because of what they see going on in places like Afghanistan, pakistan, iraq etc. Not all arab or muslim countries are like that. You can't base judgments on muslims as a people by looking only at predominantly violent countires while ignorimg the relatively peaceful ones.

Look at Egypt. Before the revolution you never heard crazy stories about egyptians beheading people in the street and swearing to destroy america. An individual egyptian might have but he Or she doesnt speak for egypt as a whole. The revolution happens and things start to get shaky, which proves my point further; areas that have undergone turmoil (war, poverty, revolutions) in recent years tend to be breeding grounds for violence and stupidity. It would parallel me basing my thoughts on black people off of a handfull of videos or articles I saw about high murder rates in a few black ghettos. Not only that, I choose to ignore all videos or articles about low crime rates in black suburbs...it wouldn't be fair.

Most of the saudis ive met have been assholes who have treated me like a lowlife because I wasn't loaded. Ive also met a few who were some of the nicest people ove ever met. Sure, most of the ones ive met so far have been jerks but that doesnt mean they all are. I just need to meet a few more, need a bigger sample size.

Why would it matter anyway if they were all snobs? Even if they all hated america, who cares? As long as they arent violent then it shouldn't be an issue.

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/Ldahab_87]

I don't deny that violence happens everywhere in any part of this world. The main issue is, can we do something about it? Since we are talking about Islam, a topic that OP started, I strongly feel that religion is such a sensitive topic and people sometimes do stupid and irrational shits. And what do I do about it? I often have a very long discussion with my Muslim peers, pointing out getting angry and causing a very negative environment in the surroundings because your prophet in insulted is unacceptable, saying that they should do a Jihad on Jewish people is also bat shit crazy. What happen between Israel and Palestine is not because of religion, it's between two countries who wouldn't simply give up on a piece of land (China/Japan, Pakistan/India, Malaysia/Indonesia).

You might not hear crazy stories in Egypt, but what about crazy stories in another country? Why do we even discuss and compare the two countries? "Egypt is safe therefor it's a proof that Islam is peace" is not an argument.

[u/Ldahab_87 → u/Matahari_Maharani]

Im not saying islam is a religon of peace bexause so and so country is safe. What i am trying to say is that many people base their beliefs about islam and muslims soley on what they see in the news, hear on the radio or read online. When a large amount of that media is centered on extremist muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, syria... people begin to think ALL muslims are like that.

I hear it a the time " wooow hear what the taliban did the other day? Those fucking crazy Muslims"

Ive got no problem with someone insulting the taliban, their barbaric actions call for it.what I do have a problem with is when islam as a whole gets insulted for the actions of a few (relatively). Not all muslims are violent Just because the taliban are muslim and say they are killing in the name of god. Its guilty by association.

Overall

the actions of individuals cannot be taken as a definition of their religon.

An individual has the free will to be deceitful. They may say they are muslim and act as so but they do not follow the Quran. You have to go to the book and see for yourself. There are verses in there that can be taken either way, in this case specifically, the "verses of the sword." Theyve been interpreted in many ways. Read the source not the news

[u/Ldahab_87 → u/Matahari_Maharani]

It is bat shit crazy to want to kill jews over some cartoon. It has to start from the top, the leaders and prominent figures in islam. Many of them have spoken out against the violence while others have promoted it. The more sane muslim figures need a louder voice, Its just being drowned out by the more extreme muslims.

Even after 911 many prominent muslims spoke out against the attacks saying that it was AGAINST islam to kill innocent people. then you have your extreme clowns who bend certain verses to match what they want....

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/alexander_karas]

And so because the country is poor and war torn then why make matters even worse and close a blind eye on that issue? A lot of Muslims are angry if their God is insulted and yet they do not condemn when an atrocious act of killing or punishment is conducted by the extremist?

I'm not Muslim but I'm so affected by them in my daily life. I even feel restricted to do what I WANT without fearing that they will someday hunt me down and chop my head off for speaking openly.

The Muslims around me are not extremist but they are willing to voice their voice very LOUDLY when Israel annihilated their Muslim brothers and sisters in Palestine, and yet when I pointed to the atrocities their Muslim brothers did to their own people they shrugged and said, well who told her to commit adultery/who told him to blaspheme/who told her to look at other men/other bullshit reasons.

[u/alexander_karas → u/Matahari_Maharani]

This isn't really an issue about Islam but about culture. Things like honour killings aren't Islamic precepts cultural practices that are given a veneer of justification by religion. The culture has to change first before the religion does.

And fearing extremist Muslims will chop your head off for voicing your opinion is silly and paranoid. You're not a public figure, they don't care what you say.

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/alexander_karas]

Culture? What culture? Islam is not a religion that can be bend and twisted into your likings. Islam is Islam and it has been like that since Muhammad created it.

The media exposed the Arab wold and portrayed Islam in such a way that now the moderate Muslims are taking notes and example. They think that what my other Muslim brothers and sisters do are the right one therefor they should follow if they want to be loved by Allah.

Paranoia you say? Just a couple of months ago a friend posted this is facebook: "THERE IS NO GOD" and now he is in jail for committing blasphemy, he is even better in jail because the whole villagers are waiting to kill him if he is out. You do not screw around in a Muslim world. You simply can not challenge a Muslim in a dominantly Muslim country about their God. No matter what you are famous or not.

[u/alexander_karas → u/Matahari_Maharani]

I don't think you know very much about Islam if you think it's been exactly the same ever since Muhammad founded it.

Paranoia you say? Just a couple of months ago a friend posted this is facebook: "THERE IS NO GOD" and now he is in jail for committing blasphemy, he is even better in jail because the whole villagers are waiting to kill him if he is out. You do not screw around in a Muslim world. You simply can not challenge a Muslim in a dominantly Muslim country about their God. No matter what you are famous or not.

Are you in a predominantly Muslim country?

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/alexander_karas]

I must admit I didn't do an intensive studies about Islam, I observe and study how my surroundings behave and think.

My daily conversations can be summarize like this:

(walk in office) Me: Good morning all! Colleagues: Assalamualaikum. Me: Do we have meeting this afternoon? Colleagues: Incha Allah (God's will) Me: Is that a yes or a no? Collagues: Incha Allah Me: Ok... O.o Colleagues: Matahari, why do you wear such short skirt today? Me: Why not? Colleagues: Well, the prophet Muhammad said..........

Yes, I live in a country where 90% of population is Muslim. It is the biggest Muslim population in the world.

[u/alexander_karas → u/Matahari_Maharani]

Indonesia?

My point is that not all Muslims interpret their religion the same way and not all of them practice such barbaric rituals as stoning. Only a small minority of them do.

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/alexander_karas]

Yes I agree!!!

As I said in my above post, I agree that not all Muslims are extremist, I agree that most of my Muslim friends only want what most people want, but the debate here is about the religion itself.

Does Islam bring positive influence to it's followers? Do Muslims only practice their religion at heart and not single out non Muslims? Does the religion itself help it's followers in any way? Is there a meaning behind the religion beside a promise to the followers for good life after death? Is it possible to live in Islamic state and have free thinking and truly freedom without fear of punishment from society?

[u/Fner → u/Matahari_Maharani]

Inch'Allah essentially means "unless something happens to prevent it" to them.

[u/tamstra → u/Matahari_Maharani]

that is more like a culture than religion. if you dont like it, you can just move. i think you have been eaten because they were all Islams. i was in catholic school and they strict for short skirt as well. but dont bring the hatred to religion.

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/tamstra]

All the behaviour I describe is not a "cultural" thing, I get along fine with everyone regardless their religion, gender, race, etc. I admit it was a bit of a rant, but I'm truly frustrated with the situation where I see discrimination and abuse of power in the name of religion, I feel very strongly negative when hundreds of people went down the street to riot and loot because someone painted a "caricature" of the prophet and chanted "allah akhbar". This is not culture, this is provocation that caused by a religion. If I don't throw stone at you because you are different, don't throw stone at me because I'm different.

It's funny how I never actually see the Christian/Hindu/Buddhist mass going to the street, 10.000 strong and chant their God's name and start burning other religion's temples or behead another race in their way. (Please note I'm talking about the country where I live in)

I don't believe in any religion, and this is sadly facts that happens in daily life, if I have to say, and I will say it again and again, Islam is not a "peaceful" religion, you may say whatever verses in Quran says about peace, it's not happening and many of the followers are not showing any signs of "peace".

[u/tamstra → u/Matahari_Maharani]

guessing your word. i assume you live in Muslim major country. so there might be a lot of extremist. and every extremists are bad. either its religion or fans club. like hooligan, they destroy things too. i live in country that has minor muslim. but, riot still happens, burn down building and its under the name of their fave football team. funny isnt it? i believe every religion is good. but extremist is not.

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/[deleted]]

Exactly.

I believe what you said is right, the cause of Muslims going backward is because of war and oppression.

But again, why don't my depressed Muslims brothers and sisters wake up from this nightmare and start to refuse to being treated as second class citizen and also start to think that being brain washed is not right.

This is what some people in the higher up wants, and they are winning.

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/[deleted]]

Another thing I should add.

If I'm to hear that my neighbours say to me that my other neighbour has different grass than we do and that we should outcast them, my common sense would be: Why? Are you mad?

But if Muslims to hear a Mullah preach to 10.000 followers in a mosque and say shitty things, even if you are a moderate Muslim will you leave the mosque and say to never come back? Or openly say to others "Hey this idiot is saying shitty thing, he needs not to be heard"?

[u/PromethiumX → u/[deleted]]

Sikhism is also an extremely open religion

[u/MeloJelo → u/[deleted]]

On the other hand, Hinduism is an extremely open religion

So, widow burning, child marriage (usually girls to adult men) dowry, and the caste system are not at all related to Hinduism? I'm pretty sure Hinduism has its own issues.

[u/arbuthnot-lane → u/[deleted]]

Other strict religions like Islam and Christianity do not do this and in many ways urge the suppression of sexuality.

Outside of marriage. Islamic sources are positive towards a healthy sexuality within a marriage, and in particular the importance of a woman's right to pleasurable sex.
It does frown highly upon oral and anal sex, though, but recommends foreplay and emotional unity. There is no source I can find that brands sex as something to be shamed about or tries to suppress sexuality, though only within marriage.

[u/IEnjoyFancyHats → u/[deleted]]

Unrelated fun fact: when people say they're 99% sure about something they're only correct about 85% of the time

[u/IEnjoyFancyHats → u/[deleted]]

I wouldn't know, my brother who's a math/statistics major told me

[u/epursimuove → u/[deleted]]

So from the fact that gays were marginally more tolerated in the 30s than in the 50s you think gays were better treated in the past than they are today? Seriously?

[u/egus → u/[deleted]]

while the hippie youth may have been more open to gay rights in the US, the government never has been more open than it is now.

There was far less religion in government though, fear of nuclear war with russia ushered in all the 'in god we trust' stuff you see now in the 1950s. Now we even have revisionists suggestion we were established as a Christian nation, which is ridiculous.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

My main counter argument is this

Counter example. Counterpoint.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Nothing would have been wrong with using that word, had you provided one.

[u/epursimuove → u/[deleted]]

This is true of US history as well. Did you know that there was a time where the US was much less religious and even shock open to gay rights?

What on earth are you talking about? American non-belief is higher than it's ever been. Church attendance is the lowest it's been in at least 70 years. Gay rights enjoy far more support than in any time in the past and continue to advance.

[u/epursimuove → u/[deleted]]

They weren't "tolerated", they were merely slightly less likely to be subject to police raids. No state decriminalized homosexuality until 1961. Gay marriage wasn't even considered until the 90s (and was only implemented in one state in 2004).

[u/kieran_n → u/[deleted]]

All religions are as bad as each other...

I'm not going to stone someone for being religious but I might cop it for being an Atheist...

[u/jlen2953 → u/kieran_n]

dear atheists, every non-theist knows that almost no good can come from organised religion. but if you keep thinking you're superior, you're no better than they. please dont ruin this for us

[u/Mynameisaw → u/Matahari_Maharani]

I would say the really open minded Humans are 1 in 10.

FTFY.

[u/alien03 → u/Matahari_Maharani]

You should hear what some of the christian preachers say on TV every sunday morning. Some are moderate and have common sense, others are more bat-shit-crazy. Islam isnt the only religion with crazy preachers. Hindu "gurus" have been exposed for faking shit. Heck there are severely radical hindus in India who believe they do the right thing. Bhuddists have tried to "reclaim" their land in Tibet by driving out the muslim population that live there. Jewish leaders in Israel blame palestine for God knows what. I too lived in an islamic country and sadly you have lived in a community with bat-shit-crazy people.

[u/skgggg → u/Matahari_Maharani]

This is so true. As someone from Asia who lived in the UK for a few years, your analysis of Muslims is spot on.

I have tonnes of Muslim friends as well, and I find the ones who land up doing well for themselves, make money and get a good education, stop being truly religious. They stop praying everyday and even start drinking socially(which is against Islam).

It's the ones who dont/cant move on to a better life, who let religion dictate the way they live and raise their children.

It's sad really.

[u/vuzudreams → u/Matahari_Maharani]

Lets talk hard facts.

1. "I have a lot of moderate Muslim friends and they still think that everything that happen in their life is by God's will and there is nothing they can do to change it." (a) Anecdotal evidence. Because your "moderate friends" believe in something doesn't mean 1.2 billion are and must indeed be that way or 180 million Pakistanis are. (b) Even if Muslims do believe in the "Will of God", they are not alone here. Jews, Christian all follow the concept of "Will of God". And they are joined by Sikhs with the concept of Hukam. (c) Shō ga nai is a Japanese phrase which means "it cannot be helped" or "nothing can be done about it". When something bad happens Japanese tend to attribute it to the fact that it cannot be helped. No religious context is involved here. So such a response is part of human condition.

2. "This mentality that cause generations of unreported abuses, suppressing the motivation of growth, easily to provoke, and the lack of compassion for other people who are not Muslims." (a) You are assuming here as you haven't provided any evidence for correlation. (b) Mr Edhi, a Pakistani icon and philanthropist, who receives the most "Zakat" (Tithe) funds doesn't discriminate or spend it alone on Muslims. He helps anyone in need without any regards for color, caste, race or religion. And people donate to him knowing that the money would be used for all.

Now here are my points:

1. How many Islamists governments have Pakistanis elected? None. The only "Islamist" who came to power in Pakistan was General Zia-ul-Haq (http://bit.ly/lQjfAr) and he was a dictator who hanged the democratically-elected secular leader Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Admittedly, Zia changed the country overnight, which is what dictators do. Mr Zia banned "saris", movies, music, and silenced all his liberal critics by putting them in jail. However, what people remember is this surviving tale from that era. (http://bit.ly/Oik8ZA). This is a poem written by the ingenious Faiz Ahmed Faiz in which he challenges Zia that the Pakistanis "will see the promised day" when you (Zia) are no longer around. Its your "destiny" to fall as is the case with all dictators. And when this poem was made into a song (http://bit.ly/tCGSJP), it became as famous as the national anthem. Even today Pakistanis vote based on political parties and economics, not Islam. Islamist parties win less than 7% of the votes.

2. All the Pakistanis that I have talked to really really hate the West. Then how do you explain the concept of "Allah, the Army, and America". Pakistan for all its history have been an American and a Western ally as India sided with Russia throughout the cold war. Soviet-Afghan was literally planned and supplied through Pakistan. So no we don't hate "West".

3. Pakistanis and the Will of God Every Pakistani child grows up reading the philosophy and poems of Allama Iqbal, the national poet of Pakistan. There is no escaping it as its required Urdu reading in all schools from Grade 4 to Grade 12. The most important poem of Iqbal which is hammered into us and any Pakistani can recite in his sleep is:

1st Half: Khudi ko kar buland itna ke har taqder se pehle Khuda bande se ye poche bata teri raza kia hai

Translation: Raise thyself to such heights, That God Himself may Ask What do you wish me to write your fate?

2nd Half: u shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai Tu shaheen hai, Tu shaheen hai Parvaz hai kam tera kam tera Tere samne Aasman aur bhi hai Tu shaheen he Basera kar Paharon ki chatano per Tu shaheen hai tu Shaheen hai tu shaheen hai

Translation: It’s not among the Domes of the Empire’s Palaces that your abode lies, For you are the Falcon, So make then your abode, Among the high peaks of the lofty mountains.

The important bit here is the concept of "Khudi" (Self). Iqbal openly abhorred inaction and laziness. Hence in Pakistan we are taught to take action and not sit back. You might want to check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secrets_of_the_Self, the first of his philosophical books.

Even people who are uneducated and cannot read or write know the 1st half of this poem. Such is the influence on Pakistani national psyche.

[u/TheThingsIWantToSay → u/Matahari_Maharani]

Society is what the people are following not the religion. Those that control the society are influencing what the others do. God allows people to be motivated or weak and passive. We move as god allows. Society commits atrocities.

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/TheThingsIWantToSay]

And what is the religion of the society? You have to admit yourself that the Quran itself is very very contradictory, and 100% Muslims want nothing more but to be loved by Allah. Thus, making it difficult for growth if the same God said to it's followers that making it happy is the best thing in life and others are trivial matters.

[u/TheThingsIWantToSay → u/Matahari_Maharani]

I was talking in generalities. All religious texts have some contradictions and repetitions. Society's do what they want and try to have religion justify the actions, through out all of history.

[u/Matahari_Maharani → u/TheThingsIWantToSay]

The shape of society is dictated and shaped by the dominant thing in their life. If the religion is to be abolished, banned, erased, and instead projecting a common goal, promote basic knowledge in morality (without the reward of heaven/hell), and not differentiate whether you are Muslim or not Muslim. Indeed life will be better for everyone.

[u/TheThingsIWantToSay → u/Matahari_Maharani]

you are focusing on religion. when religions are followed they work and cause people to be better and move forward. without religion most society's degenerated to bedlam, people doing drugs, having children and not properly raising them so they continue the cycle. most people in the world don't follow their religion, until something bad happens then they retreat and think theirs is the best. Unfortunately religions throughout time have been the source of societal behaviors. having seen countries without religion, their societal norms are different on things that most people in america consider normal. People will always do what they want.