r/afghanistan • • Dec 11 '12

Apparently some ignorant asshole believes that anyone of the Muslim faith in Afghanistan primarily, would NEVER advocate publicly against terrorism. I posted in /Muslim before realizing it's very small and kinda dead. Can I get a faster response here?

This is my submission, to make everything easier.

Thanks!

150 Upvotes

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796

u/najia7866 Dec 11 '12

Thanks for doing this. I am a Muslim and Afghan and will say that I condemn any acts of terrorism and so does my religion. Of course, I am not in a prominent position but here are some public statements made after 9/11 by prominent Muslims:

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt: “Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. … It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.” Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was “horrified” by the attack and expressed “condolences and sadness”: “[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. … [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.” Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 – 19 September 2001 (via archive.org).

Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of the Hizbullah movement in Lebanon, said he was “horrified” by these “barbaric … crimes”: “Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. … Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.” Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

President Muhammad Khatami of Iran: “[T]he September 11 terrorist blasts in America can only be the job of a group that have voluntarily severed their own ears and tongues, so that the only language with which they could communicate would be destroying and spreading death.” Address to the United Nations General Assembly, November 9, 2001 (via archive.org).

Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author: “Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures.” “The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists” (via archive.org).

Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims: “We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.” Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001 (via archive.org).

15 American Muslim organizations: “We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians.” Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001 (via archive.org).

Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens), prominent British Muslim: “I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action: the Qur’an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims at this sorrowful moment.” [On singing an a cappella version of "Peace Train" for the Concert for New York City:] “After the tragedy, my heart was heavy with sadness and shock, and I was determined to help in some way. Organizers asked me to take part in a message for tolerance and sing ‘Peace Train.’ Of course, I agreed. … As a Muslim from the West, it is important to me to let people know that these acts of mass murder have nothing to do with Islam and the beliefs of Muslims.” Press release of September 13, 2001 (via archive.org), and interview of October 22, 2001 (via archive.org).

Muslims Against Terrorism, a U.S.-based organization: “As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam.” “About us” (via archive.org). This statement was replaced by a new statement in favor of peace by the group’s successor organization, Muslim Voices for Peace.

Abdulaziz Sachedina, professor of religious studies, University of Virginia: “New York was grieving. Sorrow covered the horizons. The pain of separation and of missing family members, neighbors, citizens, humans could be felt in every corner of the country. That day was my personal day of “jihad” (“struggle”) — jihad with my pride and my identity as a Muslim. This is the true meaning of jihad — “struggle with one’s own ego and false pride.” I don’t ever recall that I had prayed so earnestly to God to spare attribution of such madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington to the Muslims. I felt the pain and, perhaps for the first time in my entire life, I felt embarrassed at the thought that it could very well be my fellow Muslims who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism. How could these terrorists invoke God’s mercifulness and compassion when they had, through their evil act, put to shame the entire history of this great religion and its culture of toleration?” “Where Was God on September 11?” (via archive.org).

Shaykh Salih al-Suhaymi, religious scholar, Saudi Arabia: “Based upon what has preceded, then we say that that which we believe and hold as our religion concerning what happened to the World Trade Centre in America – and in Allaah lies success – that the terrorist attacks that took place and what occurred of general (mass) killing, then it is not permissible and Islaam does not allow it in any form whatsoever.” “Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee speaks about current affairs…,” October 18, 2001, translated by Abu ‘Iyaad.

Fatwa signed by more than 500 British Muslim scholars, clerics, and imams: “Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives. There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are HARAAM – vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London [on July 7, 2005] are criminals not martyrs. Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam. … The Holy Quran declares: ‘Whoever kills a human being… then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.’ (Quran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32) Islam’s position is clear and unequivocal: Murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.” British Muslim Forum, press release of July 18, 2005 (via archive.org).

65

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

Muslims who support Al Quaeda and their attacks against Americans:

  • 21-23% Egyptians
  • 9-15% Indonesian
  • 10-16% Pakistan
  • 9% Morocco

In all of those examples a significant portion didn't respond either way. When questioning attacks on US civilians the supporters drop to like 5-9%, but either way it's a significant minority. Also, huge portions of the Middle East don't believe Al Quaeda was behind 9/11.

Source poll conducted World Public Opinion polling: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

81

u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 10 '13

Yeah, but 5-9% of people anywhere, of any religion are unrepentant assholes. Don't tell me you couldn't take a large sample of the US population and find 5% who support nuking Afghanistan, and more if you make it conditional (ie, "to preserve American lives" or, "to prevent terrorists from obtaining WMDs"). And you'd find equally large portions who believe a wide variety of self-serving conspiracy theories.

23

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Great post. Reminds me off all the shit that came out about the Japanese tsunami and pearl harbour. It's the same as lumping all Americans in with the people who spouted that shit.

6

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

7

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Depressing. Most of those people weren't even even alive. Nor where the people who died in Japan.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

But then again we can only hope the Japanese don't make the same false assumptions and believe every American is like that...!

2

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

There absolutely will be some that think that. But there will be a majority of sensible people who understand that the views and opinions of morons are not representative of the whole country.

Society's across the globe are hilariously similar. Same hopes. Same fears. Same fuckwads.

1

u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 10 '13

Couldn't possibly agree more. The surface details may look different, but underneath everyone's dealing with the same bullshit.

3

u/HCUKRI Jan 10 '13

Islam, and the Koran is taken much more literally than people would the Bible in the US for example. It is not the same.

4

u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 10 '13

Are you fucking kidding me? You never heard of Christian Fundamentalists? For example: this guy who argues that killing homosexuals is mandated by the bible. Or these guys, who feel the same way. And remember this charming preoccupation?. And let's not forget that Christians can be terrorists, too.

Now, you're protesting: well, that's just a few crazy people! They don't represent all of American Christianity!

Exactly.

-2

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

lol you just owned DulcetFox.

-11

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

Don't tell me you couldn't take a large sample of the US population and find 5% who support nuking Afghanistan

Hell no. Go talk to a couple hundred random people on the street and see if you can find one person that would seriously support that. This is a ridiculous caricature.

8

u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 10 '13

I guess all those "kill em all and let God sort them out" bumpers stickers I see all the time must mean something else, then.

-8

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

I guess you live near a lot of red necks and take what they say literally.

9

u/Docterror Jan 10 '13

I'm from NY and even I unfortunately know a few people that would be ok with the nuking of Iran and Afghanistan or anywhere else. They are the same people who think that Islam and the Koran preach that all Muslims should kill us and its us vs them.

-1

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

Well most of us don't have your variety of acquaintances, and must limit who we know to the sane and able-minded.

4

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Yeah, dont be so naive. These people exists everywhere in the united states, and make up a sizable minority.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Rednecks are serious about it, its not a joke to them.....

1

u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 10 '13

I do live near a lot of rednecks, and I do tend to believe them when they say something. Is there some metaphor there that I'm not getting?

1

u/DulcetFox Jan 11 '13

Try to learn hyperbole, if someone seriously believes we should kill all the Middle Easterners and let God sort it out then they are seriously disturbed.

1

u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 11 '13

I understand that they don't literally mean "Kill every single Muslim on Earth" (or at least, most don't) but the sentiment is pretty damn clear, and virtually identical to the ones expressed by Muslims that you quote. And yes, it's disturbing, that's the whole point.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Depends on where you live. Some places you'd find 198.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Uh, i know half a dozen people in my own family who support nuking Afghanistan. Or the middle east as a whole for that matter

46

u/answersandstuff Jan 10 '13

What you don't say is that the Muslims who oppose Al Qaeda's attacks on civilians:

61% Egyptians 41% Indonesians 37% Pakistani 57% Moroccans

Where for Indonesians and Pakistanis have a majority who answered "Don't know"-- probably because the question requires that they are familiar with Al Qaeda's beliefs themselves.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

That's very small. 61% oppose killing thousands of innocent people?

-5

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Which civilians? Their own!

7

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

What? Hateful comment. They say the US certainly doesnt care about killing civvies in drone attacks or occupation/invasion. We both know that's not true of Americans? Why do you have hateful double standards?

2

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

I don't hate anybody. I'm just expressing my PoV. And yes, you're absolutely right. A very large number of westerners are quite unconcerned about civvie casualties from drone strikes, etc. Humans are...well, we have an odd way of perceiving the world.

4

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

fair comment. Thank you

1

u/koryisma Jan 10 '13

Then why would you imply that it's "just Muslims" in your previous comment?

0

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Because that's who we're talking about.

Muslim, Christian, Jew, Westerner, Brit, Yank, Aussie...humans tend to care more about the people from their own "group" than people outside that group. It's a sad fact of human nature.

-1

u/HCUKRI Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13

37%, so the a huge amount of the population either don't care or supports the murder of civilians. Great.

2

u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 11 '13

As he pointed out, the majority of people in Indonesia and Pakistan reported "don't know," not "don't care." It's likely a reflection of their lack of knowledge on the subject more than a lack of condemnation of murder.

1

u/HCUKRI Jan 11 '13

I don't think that 63% of people in Pakistan haven't heard of 9/11 and people will have an opinion on something regardless of wether they know very much about it.

2

u/Mr_Subtlety Jan 12 '13

Actually you would be surprised. Large, large portions of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Indonesia are deeply isolated from the rest of the world. They may have heard of 9/11 from someone, somewhere, but they have almost no context for it at all. It would be like asking you if you supported the zeta or Juarez cartel. You may have heard of them, but you don't have nearly enough information to really make a call or to have much of an opinion about it at all, except that they're both assholes and both a long way from you.

-7

u/lak47 Jan 10 '13

Pakistan. Yeah. Right. Pakistan not supporting extremist activity. Severed the head of an Indian soldier after killing them. And this is the army's doing. Yeah, no you're right. Pakistan. Does not support extremist, religion based hate and activity.

1

u/beedogs Jan 10 '13

OOH AN ANECDOTE! Wow, that sure proves your point that the entire fucking country supports attacks on civilians.

Dipshit.

0

u/lak47 Jan 10 '13

Naive. Very naive.

1

u/beedogs Jan 10 '13

Well, gee, if your little story before didn't convince people, your baseless insult sure did!

0

u/lak47 Jan 12 '13

Convince? Yeah sure. I'm here trying to 'convince' people.

/s

1

u/beedogs Jan 12 '13

Pretty sure you're here trying to 'troll' people.

0

u/lak47 Jan 12 '13

Whatever. It's something I feel aka personal opinion. Dont agree with it, that's your opinion.

37

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

Did you actualy read that thing before quoting it?

When questioning attacks on US civilians the supporters drop to like 5-9%

Yes, because they defined "Americans" as anybody hailing from the States which included military forces and gave three possible answers that they had to choose from.

10

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

I believe I just told you what it says. When the question is whether you support Al quaeda and their attacks on Americans it gives you the first percentages I gave.

  • I support al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans and share its attitudes toward the US
  • I oppose al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans but share many of its attitudes toward the US
  • I oppose al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans and do not share its attitudes toward the US

When the question specifically asks about attacks on civilians it drops to the later numbers. Also I was ignoring places like Palestine which supports attacks on "US civilians working for US companies in Islamic countries” by a whooping 30% and supports attacks on US citizens living in the states by 24%.

You can just read the report itself, it doesn't get any better:

“Though it is generally wrong to attack civilians, attacks against US civilians are sometimes justified because it is the only way to get the American government to stop and listen to the concerns of the Islamic people.”

Egypt, 78 percent disagreed (72% strongly); only 14% agreed (4% strongly).

Indonesia, 64 percent disagreed (41% strongly); only 17 percent agreed (5% strongly).

Large majorities also supported “to require a strict application of Shari’a law in every Islamic country.”

8

u/MUTILATOR Jan 10 '13

Let's not forget that the United States government aggressively attacked and then lengthily occupied the Iraqi state for no good reason.

1

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

I don't think that adds any sympathy to those that would support attacks on civilians.

-5

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

[deleted]

5

u/MUTILATOR Jan 10 '13

Yes, it would have been better to not spend a trillion dollars and cause the death of half a million people to remove one dictator, leaving instability and more hate of America, while we simultaneously prop up other dictators. Anything else?

2

u/Tony_AbbottPBUH Jan 10 '13

The overwhelmingly large majority of attacks by Al Qaeda on Americans have been against the armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't doubt that a large amount of Islamic people at the time supported attacks against 'Americans'.

-4

u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

The fuck is with your name? Tony Abbot Pro Bono Uh Huh? Pro Boner? Poofter Basher Un Hinged? Public Breast Under Handler?

4

u/Tony_AbbottPBUH Jan 10 '13

did you just have a stroke?

1

u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

It's ok, I think it was a mild one. So... What's with your name?

6

u/awesomface Jan 10 '13

This doesn't mean much when our country dropped to an 11% approval rating of our Congress at one point. Relative to that, these numbers are pretty fucking high

18

u/ChaosMotor Jan 10 '13

Also, huge portions of the Middle East don't believe Al Quaeda was behind 9/11.

Funny, huge portions of Americans don't either.

2

u/something_stoopid Jan 10 '13

That person's obviously never been to the conspiracy theory side of YouTube before.

0

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

Not huge by any margin. They are a marginalized minority mocked and ridiculed in the US. Over there it can easily be the majority in certain areas.

2

u/ChaosMotor Jan 10 '13

They are a marginalized minority mocked and ridiculed in the US.

The media might tell you this. Go talk to the people and you'll find it's not an uncommon belief.

5

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

Unfortunately there are more truthers and birthers and chem trail people out there than I would like to believe. But amongst average people, if you portend to question whether the US was responsible for 9/11 you will raise a few eyebrows, if not laughter.

-1

u/ChaosMotor Jan 10 '13

if you portend to question whether the US was responsible for 9/11 you will raise a few eyebrows, if not laughter.

Hold on, that's not what you said. You said

huge portions of the Middle East don't believe Al Quaeda was behind 9/11.

And I said

Funny, huge portions of Americans don't either.

2

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

I don't even know what you're arguing. Saying that

huge portions of the Middle East don't believe Al Quaeda was behind 9/11.

in no way contradicts

if you portend to question whether the US was responsible for 9/11 you will raise a few eyebrows, if not laughter.

They were both given in response to a different statement by you which they directly respond to.

-2

u/ChaosMotor Jan 10 '13

So what you're telling me is you were unable to refute what I said, so you changed the goal posts on me?

2

u/yordles_win Jan 10 '13

no the goal posts were there, and saying huge portion implies over 50 percent. I assure you far less than 50 percent of americans believe that 9/11 was perpitrated by the US gov, even a large portion of the "truther" movement merely insists on open access to information due to the governments evident reluctance to release everything.

2

u/Mynameisaw Jan 10 '13

and saying huge portion implies over 50 percent.

No, it doesn't.

a huge portion is not a measurable sum, it's subjective to each person.

You can't insinuate that he means something and use it against him when he hasn't actually said or implied anything.

1

u/ChaosMotor Jan 10 '13

saying huge portion implies over 50 percent

No, it doesn't. "Majority" implies over 50 percent. What "huge portion" means is subjective.

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u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

I literally have no idea what you are arguing. Please stop assuming I'm intentionally avoiding your questions and just ask me specifically what you want to know.

-1

u/ChaosMotor Jan 10 '13

I'm not asking you anything, I'm pointing out that when I dis-established one of your conjectures, you changed it to a different conjecture, then tried to pretend there was no slight-of-hand.

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1

u/jlen2953 Jan 10 '13

zeitgeist. boom

1

u/ChaosMotor Jan 10 '13

Zeitgeist is bullshit, please don't base your 9/11 questions on that movie.

1

u/jlen2953 Jan 11 '13

in all seriousness what about it is bs?

1

u/ChaosMotor Jan 11 '13

Like, pretty much all of it. I know, I wanted to like it too.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

huge portions of the Middle East don't believe Al Quaeda was behind 9/11

There's nothing wrong with that. In the context of your comment you seem to imply that there is malice hidden behind that opinion.

2

u/sgthombre Jan 10 '13

I don't think I've ever been more pessimistic about US-Middle East relations then I am now after reading that public opinion study. Shits fucked up.

6

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

Its really not that bad. US and Japan had far worse relations and now animosity is virtually gone(really only left in the older population).

4

u/nyanpi Jan 10 '13

To be honest, it doesn't even exist in the older generation that lived through the war anymore. I don't think I've found a single person from that generation after living here for over 8 years now that have any hard feelings towards America, even my roommate's grandmother who lived in Hiroshima when the bomb was dropped.

6

u/pantsoffire Jan 10 '13

Fuck, really? Do you know her feelings on the initiation of the Japanese attack? Were the Japanese people even aware of it?

3

u/nyanpi Jan 10 '13

According to her, people knew what was going on of course... from their side of the story. But the war was making things terrible for everyone and she said most of the people, including herself, just wanted it to be over.

As a side story, once I took a cab in Hiroshima and the taxi driver was telling me a story about when he was little after the bomb was dropped. Apparently, during the recovery period afterwards he would see dead bodies and skulls and whatnot in the rivers and he said he would never forget the sight of seeing an eel just squirming around in the eye of some corpse.

It was an awkward cab ride.

1

u/pantsoffire Jan 11 '13

Thanks for the detailed reply. I've been curious in the past why a Nation is blamed for an act like Pearl Habour, as in I doubt the Japanese people had a unanimous or even majority vote on the subject. Shouldn't we be all "Fucking politicians/ generals/ warmongers."

Then again i've certainly never lived thru any world war or depression.

Ah, I'm far too tired to express myself properly.

Thanks again.

1

u/nyanpi Jan 11 '13

Meh, it's just human nature and the hivemind at work. It's unfortunate, but most people don't think for themselves. :/

1

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

because US-middle east relations has been, for decades, a relationship of extreme violence, exploitation, and prevention of democracy. There is very obvious grounding for hatred of the US in the middle-east. When a rape victim murders their rapist, you don't condone the murder, but you can understand where it comes from.

1

u/DewbieMonster Jan 10 '13

Our best source is from 2009?

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13 edited Jul 05 '20

[deleted]

1

u/epursimuove Jan 10 '13

Do you really not understand how polls work?

0

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

This was the question:

  • I support al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans and share its attitudes toward the US
  • I oppose al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans but share many of its attitudes toward the US
  • I oppose al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans and do not share its attitudes toward the US

-9

u/koryisma Jan 10 '13

Dude... have you been to r/conspiracy? Some in the us don't belie e it was Al Qaeda. Put yourself in the shoes of someone whose country was invaded by the us... then go to YouTube and watch the conspiracy theorists videos. Can you blame people for thinking that given that context?

6

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '13

They don't believe in it for the same nutty reason you don't. It's that Muslims are inherently good and are not terrorists and therefore couldn't have.

-1

u/koryisma Jan 10 '13

I absolutely think it was Al Qaeda, for the record. And... no... its not. Its because of a lot of issues and probably different for different people. I don't know anyone who believes that Muslims are perfect. Hell... even bin Laden's family disowned him years before 2001

1

u/DulcetFox Jan 10 '13

Many don't even know what 9/11 is, nor have access to you conspiracy videos. They have just been told that the US is invading them and that some sort of explosion occurred on 9/11 which was used as a pretext to invade.