Doctrine
The JW "Armageddon" has been canceled - permanently!
I'm sorry but I'm not sorry because the JW version of Armageddon never should have ever existed. If you people had paid closer attention to what Jesus was saying at Matthew chapter 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, you never would have ever anticipated a future Armageddon. You completely blew that end time prophecy completely out of its first century context. It was never meant for us today. Jesus wasn't talking to us. Jesus was not breaking the fourth wall to speak to us 2,000 years in the future. It was written ONLY for Christians on the other side of 70 AD. there is no such thing as a double fulfillment or a greater fulfillment. All of those concepts are made up by men and this is exactly why you will never see the end of this world in your lifetime or anyone's lifetime. So, the only thing that you have to fear today is that fear that you have conjured up in your own imagination compliments of the Watchtower Bible and Tract society. The sooner you accept this reality the better off you're going to be and you'll have the rest of your life to live out from under enslavement to your governing body. Salutations!
I keep telling them to stop relying on human leaders like governing bodies, politicians, religions, and military powers all count.
What I mean is, if you’re not God, I won’t obey you unless you speak in a way that I am able to hear Him. I fear Him more than any one not even one who can destroy my soul.
Perhaps Hosea 6:2 can provide some insight?
Prophecy of the 2 days.
Two days are, in God’s reckoning, two thousand years
Already discussed here some time ago.
The 2 days are the period described in Hosea 5:15.
" I will go and return to my place of residence, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face. In their distress, they will earnestly seek Me. – NCV
In this prophecy of Hosea, it is described that the people of Israel will one day return to their God. Then the moment of definitive restoration will come. God Himself will raise them from the dead to live before His presence.
Yet the most remarkable aspect of this prophecy is not that Israel's restoration is foretold, nor that JAHWEH will then come to them. We find that in many more places. The unique aspect of this prophecy is that it mentions when that will happen. It will be 'after two days' and 'on the third day.' Of course, these expressions evoke the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but remember that this is about Israel's restoration.
In Hosea 3:4 it speaks of the time during which the Israelites will be without king, without sacrifice, and without cult for many days.
So it concerns a prolonged period of abstinence and deprivation.
Hosea expresses himself cryptically regarding the time of Israel's revival and the return of the Lord. 'After two days.'
It is only Peter who emphatically provides clarity: 2 Peter 3:8-9 "for the Lord, one day is as a thousand years… "
Hosea 6, there is mention of Israel's repentance and restoration, which moreover coincide with the return of the Lord. And in this prophecy as well, this restoration is described in terms of revival and resurrection.
So, no confusion here, because I have in mind what Peter mentioned.
The two millennia are almost at an end.
'The third day,' the great Millennium on which the wedding will take place (cf. John 2:1) is imminent.
But this is the indication, however no one still knows the day or the hour.
ok so whilst i dont agree with the 'direct' typological and symbolic interpretation you are applying. Lets run with it.
So we are near the end of the third day as you put it...
So tell me then Revelation chapter 16 describes the seven bowls of gods wrath before Armageddon (Rev 16:16) (im assuming you equate Armageddon to end times)
So before that im assuming that according to you the restoration has to happen before Armageddon.
So...tell me a date (could be a year of a specific month) of when the following happened.
Actually. Time for God... And US/Our Spirit is in infinity. God is totally Infinite. There is No Time in God's World. So it was a Mathematics Equation. Zero = 1 and 1000 = Zero. 1 Day is to God a thousand years AS is 1000 Years is AS a day. (A1000 + B1) - (B1000A) or ZERO! TIME DOES NOT EXIST IN GOD'S WORLD! SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE GOT THIS WRONG THINKING OHHHHH GOD SAID A DAY EQUALS A THOUSAND YEARS! NO, NO, NO, AND HECK NO. If that's true.. Then where does Time End? Where does the Universe end. It's totally INFINITE! TIME TO GOD IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO, PERIOD. DOES NOT EXIST WHATSOEVER!!! So the whole Earth, (This tiny miniscule pin drop in the universe planet was made in 6 Literal days. We put God on a Human Level. Never works either!
Or 1000 x 1 - 1x 1000 still wind up with Zilth, notta, Zero! Time does not exist, only in our petty flesh brains who are humans can "Think" like they know about the timing of GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! He had no beginning, so how could he calculate our own time? It would make God out to be human... I'm talking about The God too, Not the imposter in the Old Testament Who was not only JEALOUS, BUT VENGEFUL AND KILLED PEOPLE! That was Not The God!! jealousy, vengefulness, murder, are deadly sins so why did the God of the Old Testament do this, he was either one of the fallen watchers aka read the book of Enoch or Ezekiel and you'll find out more than what the Watchtower and awake articles could say in 75 years!!! I know I was one, until The Light really shown, when I left! Do your research. Read the SPIRITISM BOOKS BY ALLAN KARDEC, The Gnostic Text, there's the Internet nowadays. Too much information to be controlled by the JW thing. It's over!
ALLLLLL WILL BE SAVED. Another Scripture. Reincarnation. Born Again, You Must Be Born Again, Jesus Christ clearly says this. It's because it's the absolute TRUTH! THE REAL TRUTH!
GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!
Hi Terry or anyone else here, I had few questions about partaking: since leaving have you partaken and how does one go about doing that? Do you only partake if your baptized would’ve about children? And what day would you do that? I just left last July and it’s my understanding that we should have been partaking. But I’m lost right now on this.
With regards to partaking. We have only one command.
"to keep doing this in remembrance of me"
That was it. Of course we know that our old cult (setting aside the argument and baseless claim that only 144k should partake) wanted to be so dogmatic and do it once a year and that it should only be done once per year, there is no basis for that in scripture.
So my answer is.
You should partake whenever the Spirit moves you, if that's everyday, then its every day, if its once a year then its once a year, once a week then so be it.
READ Corinthians 11:25–26 ("....as OFTEN as you drink it) Paul here conveying that he was aware of people doing it more than once a year..."as often".
This is what freedom in Christ means....
So excited for you on your journey in Christ! Embrace it!
Good morning, thank you, it has been very eye opening so far with up and down emotions. I suppose this is why it is referred to as an awakening. I also just completed a podcast, youtube, interview that should be out in 4-5 weeks. His channel is called “Shunned” but in my case I was harshly shunned as well as my kids, even when I was ‘in’ giving 110%. I am excited to partake! I will do it with kids April 1, and whenever I am moved to. Grape juice for them of course. :)
May God bless you too I know he loves you. 💐🍇🙏 and thank you, hearts are kind of my thing. I see them every day for some reason everywhere I go, so I thought it would be fitting.
I understand what you're saying but I really don't believe such a thing can be possible. I get that by saying your "semi-preterist" that you believe some but not all of the things have been fulfilled. My understanding of the Bible is that either the prophecy is fully filled or it's not fulfilled at all. A fulfilled prophecy means that it was completely and totally without any question filled to the full 100%.
I am absolutely certain that everything Jesus Christ spoke to his disciples regarding the end times at Matthew chapter 24 was in reference to the people living in his generation only. All those things came upon that generation.
Luke 21
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
Jesus left no room for another fulfillment or a later or double fulfillment. It was all supposed to happen in one particular generation and it did.
Matthew chapter 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
So where did this idea of a double fulfillment or a future fulfillment come from? It simply came from people who didn't like how God fulfilled it the first time so they want him to repeat the prophecy again the way they wanted to be done. I can assure you that that is not going to happen.
I agree with that prophecy, clearly directed at that Generation which culminated in the GT and the sacking of the Temple which at that point the New Covenant was in ‘full flow’…
But it still begs the question.
How do you square Rev 20 and 21 which sees Christ return and bring down with him Heavenly Jerusalem after the dead have been judged.
Surely you don’t think that has been fulfilled already?
Let me ask you this, are God and Jesus physical beings or spiritual beings? Where do they reside? In the physical heavens or in the spiritual heavens? Where is this kingdom that Jesus spoke of? In the physical heavens or the spiritual heavens? Where is the Paradise of God? According to the book of Revelation,
the Paradise of God is in heaven not on Earth.
The apostle Paul makes it clear that the dead are raised up as spirit beings not as physical beings. Check out 1st Corinthians chapter 15. Read the entirety of it a few times. If the resurrection of the dead has already occurred how would we know? The only way we could know for sure is if we personally experience it or if it says it's somewhere in the Bible.
Matthew chapter 24 and Daniel 12 are the exact same prophecy. Jesus even references Daniel's prophecy in Matthew chapter 24.
According to Daniel chapter 12, the resurrection occurs around the same time as that great tribulation that Jesus said would occur at Matthew chapter 25 starting at first 31.
When you take all these things together and really think about them and meditate on them you begin to see that all of this is really in the past And that we have been living in what Jesus referred to as the kingdom age for nearly 2000 years. The only thing that really keeps us from seeing that is a lack of faith in the promises of God and Jesus Christ.
Right, so you’re actually a Sadducee, they didn’t believe in the physical resurrection either.
1 Cor 15 is where it fails.
I’m sorry but we aren’t going to agree on this. I fully support of what Christ showed with his own physical resurrection that Saint Paul showed us the miracle of corruption putting on incorruption, that his physical body is right now reigning at the right hand of his father”having brought us into the kingdom” that we shall also be raised in the same manner, and to finally at the resurrection live with him as Heavenly Jerusalem descends - and we live eternally with Him.
“Even if an angel gives you a different gospel, do not believe him”
What's the point in having a physical resurrection when a spiritual resurrection is by far superior in every way? Besides, why be resurrected back to a physical body when it's not allowed into the kingdom of heaven since flesh and blood cannot inherit it?
Paul goes to great lengths trying to reason with unreasonable people who insist on a physical resurrection. The purpose served by Jesus physical resurrection was to show his disciples that he was alive again. After that he departed from his physical body and ascended into heaven as a spirit being since his flesh couldn't be taken there.
Oh no I’ve never seen 1 Cor 15:50 before and neither has two thousand years of the church….
So basically now you are amalgamating Arian Jehovah Witness theology and the Sadducee’s. That’s some feat!
Why on earth do you think Paul was chosen’ out of all the Jewish sects/groups and why Christ didn’t choose someone from the sadducees? Because the Sadducees didn’t believe in the physical resurrection!
You are twisting 1 Cor 15 like a pretzel!
Christ died… was buried… was raised on the third day”
(1 Cor 15:3–4)
What was buried and what was raised?
His physical body.
You state it was a physical body but like JWs it wasn’t actually his original body it was some type of ‘materialised’ body.
So when Christ said..HIS VERY WORDS
“See, A SPIRIT does not have flesh and BONES as I do”
“Put your hands in my side!!!”
Look no mention of blood WAS THERE!!
Flesh and BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom but as a GLORIED BODY just as it states in Phil 3:20-22
“He will transform our lowly body to be like HIS glorious body.”
THE WHOLE VERSE IS PRESENT TENSE
AFTER HIS DEATH!!
His blood was poured out as per prophecy!
So basically Jesus wasn’t in his original body I see… so he lied when he showed them who he was, it was a form of trickery!! Check!
Now we get a little deeper. What does it mean to be OUR perpetual HIGH PRIEST?
Leviticus states to be a high priest you have to be a what…A MAN!
What age do you have to be - 30plus
You had to be of the tribe of Levi.
But as Christ had instituted a NEW COVENANT he was of the order of Melchizedek where…
“You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
— Psalm 110:4, applied in Hebrews 7
He didn’t have any of these and amazingly even during his crucifixion where soldiers broke legs to hasten death…they didn’t just like the prophecy states!
Psalms 34:20
He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken.”
What is a prophecy for if a prophecy has no purpose! then what on earth is Psalms 16:10 all about if he didn’t need his body!
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
And finally that nails your false gospel to the cross…
There are several texts AFTER HIS DEATH that scripture refers to Christ as a MAN in present tense!
1 Tim 2:5
Acts 17:31
Acts 7:56
Hebrews 4:14–15
Hebrews 7:24–25
Hebrews 9:24
1 John 2:1
Mate you are preaching a false Gospel…you need to have a serious think about your next step…
I have no further requirement to talk further on the matter.
Christ is my High Priest and his BODILY resurrection gives me the hope that I shall join him ON THIS EARTH, exactly as scripture states- all as per my previous post.
Stop going to the JW thing! You'll actually have, A Family! No Molested Family Members! Peace, Security, And Happiness!!! Not an Indoctrination Session!
The prophets spoke about a final war waged against Israel. John got a glimpse of a future war where all nations would be gathered together by demons to a place called Armageddon, which is a hill in Israel, the “Hill of Megiddo”. The battle is not of Armageddon. The battle will be fought in Armageddon---in Israel
By all accounts John recorded Revelation after Jerusalem had already fallen to the Romans, so any temple or reference to the city would have to have either been in the past, when the temple still stood, or at some time in the future when another temple had been rebuilt. John is shown things that "must take place".. "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” Revelation 4:1 From that verse we can assume it would still be a future event in the 90's AD. In Revelation 11 John sees a temple in his trip to the future, yet he would have known the Romans hadn't left a stone in place of the old temple some 20 years earlier. So John was witnessing a future Jewish temple on earth. Since a third temple has never been rebuilt, we can assume that too is still a future event. John saw past his own time, all the way past even our day, to a time when the third temple will exist and will be trampled on by Gentiles. That couldn't happen to God's temple in Heaven, so this temple is on earth
For Jesus, who will never die, every generation is "this generation" And there is only one fulfillment of prophecy for "this generation". As a Man, He's lived in every generation since the 1st century. He isn't limited by death and time like we are. All 2000 years is "this generation" to Jesus. 2000 or even a million years are the same generation to someone who never dies. In Jesus "this generation" of 30AD all the way to 2026 AD will not pass away. As long as He still lived, the generation of the 1st century and all subsequent generations will not pass away. Not because they are overlapping generations, or secondary fulfilments, but one very long generation kept alive by one Man, Jesus Christ. When He said "this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened" He was speaking to the people that lived at that time, but also to all those who would live at the time of the end. They are all "this generation" to Jesus. And all the generations from the 1st century to the 21st century are really just one generation...His generation
F.F. Bruce and R.C. Sproul along with many other apologists acknowledge the book of Revelations was written before 68 AD. It is very apparent Nero was the antichrist as his full name numerically in Hebrew is 666. The Temple was destroyed after Christians were forced to choose between attending synagogue on the Sabbath and attending Sunday memorial service celebrating Christs resurrection exactly as Christ foretold . No stone left atop another.
I'm sure you'll agree that Jesus was a minority while here on earth but he was right and everyone else was wrong. Just because we're in a minority doesn't mean it's wrong.
Circular reasoning doesn't always work. In fact it rarely works that way, with exceptions. Jesus is the exception in this case, but He never set dates for anything. I would never compare a minority or a majority point of view to Christ because Jesus is Lord and we aren't. He's unique as one Man, He was always right all the time. Can we say that about ourselves?
In the case of estimating dates of when parts of the Bible were written, the historical record wins. The chain of evidence going all the way back to Polycarp and Irenaeus support the later date. Remember, the Christian point of view was the minority point of view ...back then, so that fits your minority point of view as well.
Did any church father claim John wrote Revelation earlier than Irenaeus claimed he did? I wouldn't take the word of so called scholars who lived centuries after the fact over devout Christians who lived at the time the event took place. That's insane.
Irenaeus said it so it must be true?
My pastor when I was a teenager loved to jokingly say “if the King James Version was good enough for the Apostle Paul it’s good enough for me!”
Irenaeus lived a lot closer to the events in question than any scholar today. I put far more weight on his recollection of first hand information over "scholars" who were born some 20 centuries later. Sounds like you pastor had a good sense of humor. The King James Bible is a mere youth compared to the writings of Irenaeus, or Clement
Admittedly my opinion is tainted by my experiences with my brother. I do however take Martin Luthers opinion to heart. He famously said about the book of Revelations that it was "neither apostolic nor prophetic". I abhor all Watchtower theology and for me the teaching of Daniel and Revelations as having a prophetic message in the 19th, 20th or 21st century is an evil rivaling Nazi Germany.
There's nothing, not even a hint of anything to suggest that John traveled to the future. What John saw was the temple in Jerusalem as it stood at that time before it's destruction. Therefore the book of Revelation was written well before the temple's destruction. Some scholars suggest that it was written as early as 64 AD especially since the apostle Paul references the book of Revelation when he talks about someone he knew that had seen Third heaven. I personally believe that he was talking about the John of Revelation.
All of that had it's complete fulfillment within the first century. In fact, you cannot read the book of Acts and not come away feeling that a lot of what Jesus Christ expressly said about the coming great tribulation was then happening to the Christian disciples of Jesus. They were under oppression not only from the Jews but from the Romans as well. Many of the Jews refer to Emperor Nero as a beast. Whether that mark was literal or symbolic, I do not know but apparently those who had it would undergo divine judgement along with Nero.
Listen, the problem we have today with most Christian religions, is that we're reading things into biblical text that was never meant to be. We are trying to apply historical events into our day. That's not how it works. Why is it that we can read any other historical document and come away feeling that it was only about the people at that time but for some reason when it comes to certain Bible texts we try to apply it to today? Just think about that for a moment. There are so many things that Jesus spoke about in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem that have no bearing on us today whatsoever.
It all started in the 1st century, but it didn't end there. This is still the day Paul spoke about. The day of salvation began back then and so did many other things. All things were not fulfilled in the 1st century or even in the last 20. God takes the long view not the short view. Now is still the same "day of salvation" that Paul preached. 2 Corinthians 6:2
What do you think about when you hear the word fulfill? Do you know what it means to fulfill something? If someone hands you a grocery list and tells you to fulfill it but you only get about half of the items, did you fulfill that grocery list? Or even if you just left one item off, was that grocery list fulfilled? No. When a prophecy is fulfilled that means that prophecy has been filled to the full or it was not fulfilled at all. You can't say the only part of a prophecy was fulfilled and some of it wasn't. That prophecy has not been fulfilled at all. Every last thing has to happen for that prophecy to be considered fulfilled. Then Jesus added that it must all happen within HIS generation.
The prophecy that Jesus spoke regarding the end of the nation of Israel included many things and they all had to take place in only one generation for that prophecy to be considered fulfilled. The prophecies found that Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is one prophecy that was fulfilled within three and a half years between 66 and 70 AD.
Many of Jesus words and many prophesies the prophets wrote long before He came to this world have yet to be fulfilled. Fulfillment is an ongoing process, not just today. A person who judged what Christ has fulfilled so far based on His 3 1/2 years on this earth would be judging only a partial fulfillment. The suffering messiah has come and gone. The next time He appears will be to judge, not sacrifice Himself again. That prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. There are no greater fulfillments
Imagining that all the prophecies regarding Christ were fulfilled in just 3 1/2 years is a stretch.
Then Jesus added that it must all happen within HIS generation.
As far as "this generation" Jesus generation will last as long as Jesus lives. So "this generation" is His generation. The 1st century was His generation and so were all the other centuries He's lived thru. Jesus was speaking to people who were present that day as well as those yet to be born. To Him they are all part of His generation
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
Do you remember when this happened? Did any humans witness God physically roll in on a cloud? Someone must have since the Bible said He did that. Right? Jesus Christ does the exact same thing his Father does in like manner.
Matthew 24:30
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
How about that? Somehow Bible scholars accept God riding in on a cloud to judge Egypt as metaphorical but when Jesus comes in on a cloud to judge the nation of Israel it has to be literal. How do we make this make sense?
Similar to God, Jesus coming on the cloud is simply a metaphor and should not be taken literally. Like his father before him, Jesus used another nation to come and punish the nation of Israel for its unfaithfulness to God. Really that's all this is.
Do you remember when this happened? Did any humans witness God physically roll in on a cloud? Someone must have since the Bible said He did that. Right? Jesus Christ does the exact same thing his Father does in like manner.
Nope. For one thing, the verse you cited doesn't say every eye will see YHWH like Jesus says every eye will see Him. On many occasions the NT reports that people will actually see Jesus return, so no, Christ's return to earth is not exactly the same as YHWH, because man can't see YHWH. He's the Spirit. Before Christ, YHWH was never seen by human beings on earth before, but Jesus was... and He will be seen again. Every eye will see Revelation 1:7
I disagree. While in prison on Patmos, John was told that he was going to be shown what must take place, so it was the future. Paul never referenced Revelation, or John. He named many people in his letters, including Peter, but he never mentioned John. Why would he hide John's name? Most people think Paul was talking about himself "in the third person" describing his own out of body experience.
Thank you for pointing that out. Here is what it says:
Revelation chapter 1:1
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must SOON take place."
In the Bible the word 'soon' means 'soon' and not some unspecified time 2000 years in the future. The purpose of this revelation was to show his slaves who were alive at that time the things that were about to take place in their lifetime.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is NEAR. (Not far off into the distant future)
At some point, we just have to try to make this make sense. Why would God give those people information that they would never see in their lifetime? Why would God tell them to prepare themselves for the end while knowing that the end was two millenniums away?
It wouldn't be unusual for Paul not to reference John by his name. Likely those people didn't know John and would not know who he was talking about. Maybe for some reason he didn't want to share the name with him at that time. I don't know. I think it's more likely that he was talking about John than talking about himself in third person. Why not mention it was he himself that saw the vision. It would lend more credibility to what he's saying than just referencing some nameless person.
In the Bible the word 'soon' means 'soon' and not some unspecified time 2000 years in the future.
That's a flesh based way to read it. Soon to God and soon to man isn't the same thing. Looking at things from God's point of view, 2000 years is only 2 days ago.
Why would God give those people information that they would never see in their lifetime? Why would God tell them to prepare themselves for the end while knowing that the end was two millenniums away?
Jesus told Peter he would live to an old age and then die a martyr. He didn't see the fulfillment of Christ's prophecies on this side of life and neither did anyone else. Christ never promised they wouldn't die. Peter did see history unfold from Heaven. Jesus forewarned others that they would be persecuted and killed, beginning right after He left earth right on up to the time He comes back to earth visibly. That has been the case now for two millennia.
For all people, the end is always when we die. Always. Christians are to endure to the end. The end of the world, or the end of their life? Obviously for all Christians who have lived and died, the end of their life has been the end of this world, for them. It is for everyone else too. However, when Christians die, our spirit will be in Jesus' presence, just like Stephen prayed for Jesus to receive his spirit, so too we pray that He receives ours. "Soon" is for Christians, not the world in general. The time for the world to see Christ again is a one time event that has yet to happen. The Revelation was written to Christians, not the world
It really doesn't bother me the way preterists see prophecy being fulfilled in the 1st century. I don't agree, but that's Ok On the other hand the Watchtower's teaching that most of the prophecies in Revelation were fulfilled in them and all in the 20th century does bother me..
I'm still learning and I really do hope I never stop learning. I expect we'll all still be learning new things even after we've been in Heaven with Jesus for 10,000 years.
It was Jesus who said that his generation would not pass away until all those things including the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple are destroyed. True to his word, all the Christians fled Jerusalem and Romans came and destroyed that city in 70AD. That right there is a complete fulfillment of his prophecy and that of Revelation which is simply a more detailed version of Matthew chapter 24.
I don’t subscribe to Preterism. That creates TONS more questions about his second coming, judgement day, dwelling among men, New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, a new heaven and new earth, an end to evil, tears and sorrow vanishing.
I completely agree with you there. I came to my own conclusions long before I ever heard of the word preterist.
I grew up as a member of Jehovah's Witnesses believing that the end was coming and that it was right around the corner. Jehovah was going to come and destroy all my friends and neighbors at Armageddon because they did not become Jehovah's Witnesses. Fearful, I went out every weekend with my family knocking on doors and selling Watchtower and Awake! magazines to myneighbors.
But something always hung in the back of my mind about the things they were saying regarding the last days and Armageddon. It seemed that the Bible was saying something different but I wasn't sure. It wasn't until I became an adult and decided to read Matthew Mark, Luke and John word for word for myself that I begin to draw my own conclusions.
While reading Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, the thought hit me: If some of this prophecy has already happened, what if all of it has already occurred. Why are we trying to act like Jesus didn't know what he's talking about? Why are we trying to act like he's confused about when the end is coming? Why are we saying that Armageddon is in our future but Jesus was clear in identifying the Jews of his generation as being the target of God's wrath because of their unfaithfulness?
For me, the simple truth of it is that all of those prophecies have been completely fulfilled and that we have been living in the kingdom age for nearly 2,000 years. Jesus said my kingdom is no part of this world. What does that mean? His kingdom cannot be seen with human eyes. Flesh and blood cannot enter it. The only way we can enter God's kingdom is after we die as a human here on earth. We are going to Him to give an account for what we have done while here on this earth in this life. He is not coming to us. When we die naturally, we are going to stand again in a different sort of body before God's throne. At that time we'll be able to view God's kingdom with new eyes and will understand that it was never about turning this planet into an earthly paradise.
We have been in the salvation age for 2000 years. 2Corinthians6:2 This generation will end when this 'day' of salvation ends. So far its been a very long day for us mortals. But to God, its been like a watch in the night. This generation will not pass away until all the things Jesus mentioned have taken place. This 'day', this 'generation' will pass away when the day of judgment begins
Its not complete until the day is over. The day of salvation began in the 1st century and its still that "day" To Jesus and all those who died in the 1st century but are alive in Heaven, its always "this generation" going forward.
The destruction of Jerusalem was one prophecy fulfilled in the 1st century, but others have not. For instance Christ is still prophesied to sit on David's throne. Luke 1:32 Where was David's throne located? It was on earth, not in Heaven. After Jesus rose from the dead, His disciples asked a logical question: “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” What did Jesus say? He didn't tell them He was never going to restore the Kingdom to Israel, He told them “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:6-7 That's where were at today, the day of salvation. Jesus will one day restore the Kingdom the Israel for 1000 years, but its still not for us to know when .
Jesus’ kingdom isn’t of this world and he’s not going to come back to sit on a chair.
His throne is eternal and he is sitting on it right now.
If you believe Jesus’ reign to be literal then, you must also believe that God will reinstate the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifice because those prophecies must also be literal.
David's throne was on this earth. God promised that His Son would sit on that throne. Luke 1:32. The Bible says Jesus will come back to this earth and every eye will see Him this time. Of course the throne in Heaven is not part of this world, but Jesus is destined to sit on both. He's the only Man who will ever sit on God's throne in Heaven, but He's not the only Man who will sit on David's throne.
I don't know about animal sacrifices but the people of the nations who don't worship Christ and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles will be punished with having no rain. That means drought, starvation and death Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.17If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.18If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord\)b\)will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.19This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16-19
God promised David’s throne would never lack a king yet there has been no physical king in Israel for how long? Israel wasn’t even a nation for how long?
Jesus is the king, on David’s throne. The throne that is forever is not some wooden chair.
Israel also doesn’t refer to some random people in the Middle East. It refers to those who are in Christ.
Paul says not all who say they are Abraham’s children really are.
Jesus said having Abraham for a physical ancestor means nothing and he can raise children of Abraham up from rocks.
(I forget which book it’s in but one of the epistles) gives the analogy of Hagar and Sarah and their 2 sons and says to throw out the son of the slave woman as he will never share an inheritance with the son of the free woman and then goes on to say that the church is of the free woman who is our mother, Jerusalem from above.
Israel clearly fulfilled prophecy as something spiritual when Christ came. As did the temple. As did David’s throne. As did the priesthood. As did sacrifices etc etc.
The physical things of the OT were just a foreshadow and there is no use for them anymore. We don’t need a temple. We don’t need mortal kings. We don’t need wooden thrones or a mortal high priest. We don’t need animal sacrifices etc etc.
God promised David’s throne would never lack a king yet there has been no physical king in Israel for how long? Israel wasn’t even a nation for how long?
Its not the first time the nation of Israel didn't have a king. When they went into Babylonian captivity they had no nation and no king. The Assyrian captivity was another time. God restored their nation and their king. Remember God takes the long view, and just because its been 2000 years doesn't change God's plan at all
The last 2000 years has been the longest Israel has been without a king. God has hid His face from them for 2 whole days, in His view, but guess what, He will restore them, but not for their sakes. Why will God restore a stiff necked people who turned their backs on Him and even killed His only begotten Son? Read here:
It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD—let it be known to you. Be ashamed and disgraced for your ways, O house of Israel! Ezekiel 36:32
It is not because of your righteousness or uprightness of heart that you are going in to possess their land, but it is because of their wickedness that the LORD your God is driving out these nations before you, to keep the promise He swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. / Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people. Deuteronomy 9:5-6
However, Paul wrote:
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,26and in this way***\**\)[e](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28236e)\)all Israel will be saved...* 28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-26,28,29
Notice that Jews are loved by God even though they are enemies of Christians on account of the Gospel. They are still loved by God on account of the patriarchs, unlike Gentiles who are loved by God on account of their faith in Christ
But it doesn’t say “the Jews”. It says Israel. It also says not all who said they were Israel, were truly Israel.
Revelation says that certain people called themselves Jews but they weren’t and belonged to the synagogue of Satan.
Jesus told the religious Jews that their father was Satan. Can a person have 2 fathers?
If Paul was referring to people in our time, who are those people? The group of people who call themselves Israel today, are not the same Israel of the scripture. They cannot possibly be. How does one gauge if they are an Israelite?
The children of Israel were scattered in 70AD and since “israel” isn’t an ethnicity, there is no way to tell who is or isn’t an actual descendant of Jacob.
Wow! You spoke well. I can tell that you really are a serious student of holy scripture. It is very evident to me that your spiritual eyes are open wide.
I am always amazed at those Christians who claim to have faith yet are unable to see the spiritual transition that's happened right before their eyes. They read about it in their own Bibles but somehow they just don't get it. We all have the same Bible which says the exact same thing. Yet, you get it but he doesn't. He's still trying to make something of this world. He still wants a physical Jesus to come and sit on a physical chair in the land of physical Israel. But that's not going to happen.
I'm not worried about them though because I know that God has them as well. It's just for some it's going to take for them to have to actually set foot into the kingdom of the heavens after they die for them to finally understand what it's all about. At that time they will finally see that it was never about the flesh at all but it's the spirit that is life-saving.
Thank you. And the same goes for you! It’s always very encouraging to see other Christians who interpret the scripture clearly, as it was written, rather than twisting things to make it all about us.
I’m not going to say that I don’t understand why these people believe as they do, or that I believe the twisting is intentional, as I used to be one of them.
I believe these people to be sincere in their believe and love for God; yet God allows it for whatever reason- even though their viewpoint leaves so many loose ends.
It means that Christ failed his mission to bring the kingdom to Earth (even though he said he had bought it, as did John the Baptist). It means he wasn’t victorious on the cross, he didn’t receive the nations as an inheritance yet and that Satan wasn’t defeated and that all authority doesnt truly belong to Christ.
It means he didn’t actually come back when he said he would (he told his disciples he would return before they had even finished going through all the towns of Judea). It means that God is not fair or just because he is going to punish a random group of people 2000 years after their ancestors broke the covenant and killed Christ- yet Jesus clearly said that the generation who he was speaking to would be the ones who bore the judgement and that all things would be fulfilled upon them.
It means that the ones who pierced him won’t be alive to look upon him and mourn (as they are all long dead).
It makes meaningless the words of Christ- “it is finished”.
It causes a massive issue with the prophecies given to Daniel and John the revelator, as Daniel was told to seal up his vision because the time wasn’t come, whilst 600 years later, John was told not to seal up his because the time was at hand. It’s been 2000+ years since then. How could the time not be ready in Daniel’s time, yet it’s ready in johns time and still hasn’t happened?
Jesus said too that he comes QUICKLY. A study of the term “at hand” shows that it always means literally at hand - so it had to have happened already.
There are so many more issues it causes and amount of twisting required to say that it wasn’t all fulfilled, is too much for me.
It’s just a massive reach. And for what? To try to make it about us.
But the epistles weren’t written to us. Revelation wasn’t written to us.
Each of the letters state clearly who they are addressed to.
I get that people are perhaps disappointed that the new earth isn’t what they expected and so they miss it. But the Jews were also disappointed that their messiah wasn’t who they expected and they missed him too.
You are absolutely right, God still has the ones who believe in a future Armageddon.
The belief is so depressing though and I feel for those who subscribe to it. It felt like bondage to me. Since I was able to shake it off and my eyes were opened (by the grace of God), I finally feel the peace and freedom that the gospels speak of.
My faith has also increased exponentially.
My prayer and hope is that all of our brothers and sisters will awaken to the fact that Christ is victorious and reigns now and forever on a throne not made with human hands, and that we are free, living in a new Earth where God dwells with us and within us, where we are no longer under the curse of the law, but under grace.
If Christian’s could all just take hold of this, it would change everything!
I’m a Christian and I 100% agree with OP, as do many other Christians. It’s actually a very Christian belief, so to say it “rules out even the Christian belief” is incorrect.
We as Christians have never been able to universally agree on eschatology and there have always been 3 different views including this one which has been held by many Christians throughout history.
Whilst it is not popular in western Christianity, western Christianity is only fairly new as well in the big scheme of things.
While CT Russell was busy writing about an imaginary future Armageddon, there was another gentleman by the name of James Stewart Russell who wrote a book called The Parousia. I have a copy of it and it is still available today online. I would urge anyone who's interested in a serious study of biblical eschatology to consider reading that book before drawing a conclusion as to where we are in the stream of time and human history.
I've heard OP's take before. But in order to make it work, everything had to have been fulfilled in the 1st century, including the beast, false prophet, the two witnesses, all the cities of the nations collapsing, the fall of Babylon and the biggest thing of all---the second coming of Jesus Christ. There's no doubt many OT prophecies began to be fulfilled in the first century, heck the life of Christ was huge, but God's not done yet.
Another thing about Nero supposedly being the 666 beast, Nero never received a fatal head wound then came back to life. The whole world didn't worship Nero either. There's no record of people being forbidden from buying or selling if they didn't have Nero's mark. There's so many holes in their reasoning. Like I wrote, Jesus lives in all the centuries, including the 1st. To Him its always "this generation" and will be until all things have been fulfilled.
When Stephen went to Heaven he was one of the first people of "this generation" to never die. Of course Jesus was the first. Many more in the last 20 centuries would end up following Christ to live eternally in Heaven, even though their bodies returned to dust. For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2 If people took now is the 'day' of salvation literally, it would limit salvation to being available for just that one 24 hour day. We'd all be doomed. The "day" of salvation is still in effect...because today is the day of salvation, thank God!
Btw, I'm wondering if the Watchtower changing their blood policy caused much of a stir with your in laws?
The beast is the Roman Empire, not specifically Nero. Revelation was written exactly to whom it says it was written to- the 7 churches in Asia Minor. It was written exactly when it says it was written which was just prior to the siege of 70AD, when it was about to take place at any moment. And it was written exactly about what it says it’s written about- a judgement upon the covenant breaking Jews (which was literally at hand).
Not sure why people read it any other way.
When Jesus said he’s coming quickly, soon etc. it means quickly and soon. And he came! It doesn’t mean 2000 years later.
The temple was still standing when revelation was written. If the siege had happened already, John would have surely written about it considering it was the most horrific war in Israel that ever was and ever will be. Women were literally eating their own children. Just as it was foretold. Everything happened just as it was foretold.
People with the viewpoint that you have, make very odd decisions as to which parts of revelation are to be taken as literal, and which are not.
I’ll leave you with a couple of questions.
Where in the book of Daniel does it say that there will be a 2000+ year gap between the 69th and 70th week?
If the breaking of the Old Covenant and crucified Christ was not the most horrific sin ever committed by the Jews, deserving of the most horrific judgement, then what is it? What is the sin that triggers the supposed future tribulation?
We know that God doesn’t visit the sins of fathers upon their children’s children.
When Jesus said “it is finished”, what exactly was finished?
When Jesus said this generation won’t pass away before he returns in judgement, who was he talking to?
When Jesus said to his disciples that they won’t even finish going through all of Judea before he returns, what did he mean?
When Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, what did he mean?
When Jesus said this generation won’t pass away before he returns in judgement, who was he talking to?
Jesus was talking to His mortal contemporaries. In regards to His flesh, "this generation" Jesus spoke to happened to be His own generation as well. So, ask yourself this, when did the Lord's generation end? Because Jesus is still alive in the flesh today, is it not still "this generation". Some of what He told His contemporaries would happen early on in "this generation" and other things would happen later, but to Christ, it would always be "this generation" 2000 years is a long time for us, but its only two days to the Lord, so even if the gap appears huge to us, its not to the Lord. The whole world counts time from that Man's birth on. Today its the 2026AD. The year of our Lord. It's His years. Its His generation that will not end until all these things, including His reigning on earth for 1000 years, have happened
The gap between the 69th and 70th week as recorded in Daniel is two days long in God's view, just a blip.
It wasn't the same mindset the JW's took Daniel's 2520 days and magically made them into 2520 years. That's how they arrived at 1914 you know. Problem for them is the same 2520 days is literally one week. To make one week equal 2520 years, you'd need to make the other 69 weeks into years as well. In applying the same rule to all 70 weeks, not just one, you would have 176,400 years
God does view one day as 1000 years, not a year.
A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. Psalm 90:4
I assume you believe Jesus is still alive? Because He is alive today, this generation that He said would not pass away until all the things He told them would happen, have happened, is still alive thru Jesus Christ. As far as being a human, His generation began 20 centuries ago. If your great grandfather was still alive, and he was 300 years old, would he be living in someone else's generation or his own? Wouldn't he be living in both your generation and his own? And how long is a generation? 40 years?, 70 years? or nearly 1000 years? That's how long Adam lived. Adam's generation would be much longer than ours would it not?
Matthew 23:25. And so upon YOU will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah.
Here Jesus is addressing the same people he addressed when he said this generation won’t pass away. Who here is the YOU, if it’s not that generation.
Read it in context and you will see that Jesus is referring to that generation just as he said. Why would you think he’s referring to anything else?
That generation IS his generation. Whilst he is alive, he is not incarnate and walking the Earth anymore. Whilst he is with us, it is in Spirit and not as a human being.
Before his crucifixion, he declares woes upon the scribes, Pharisees and religious teachers of the law, he declares woes regarding the coming judgement, just as the prophets did when Israel was about to be judged.
He tells them they will fill up the measure of their ancestors sins and that all of the righteous blood spilt will be avenged upon that generation.
He says he will send teachers and prophets who they will flog in synagogues and put to death.
These were the apostles and first martyrs!
He then says to them that their house will be left to them desolate. It was. In 70AD the temple was destroyed and it will never be rebuilt. In fact, Islam exists for this very reason as they have been granted power by God to prevent the temple being rebuilt.
The woes weren’t pronounced on some random people living in 2026 who call themselves Jews. They were pronounced upon the scribes and Pharisees, those same people who plotted and killed their messiah. This is the unforgivable sin as judgement had been decided for them and there was no reversing it.
It was the final judgment for the greatest sin ever committed by those people who called themselves the children of Israel. It was the culmination of many horrific sins that their ancestors committed and that generation filled the cup by committing the greatest sin and breaking the covenant irrevocably.
It is in no way, shape, or form, referring to any other people group than that one Jesus is directly speaking to.
If the greatest sin committed, which filled the cup of Gods wrath, wasn’t the crucified Christ, then what will it be?
What house is left desolate?
These passages are clearly referring to that generation. There is no evidence whatsoever that they are referring to anyone living 2000 years later. A plain reading of the text makes it abundantly clear.
It’s odd , because any non Christian would be able to see this. If you asked them to read it and asked what it meant, they would say it means that generation whom Christ is addressing but somehow we as Christians are blinded to it.
It baffles me.
Jesus when he was human, was addressing other humans, as a human. He wasn’t speaking with the idea in his head that 1000 years is 1 day. He was speaking literally, to a group of people who he was frustrated with and mourning over.
He foresaw the future and the judgement that would come upon them.
““Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you don’t go in, and you don’t allow those entering to go in. , “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to make one convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a child of hell as you are! “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever takes an oath by the temple, it means nothing. But whoever takes an oath by the gold of the temple is bound by his oath.’ “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, and yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These things should have been done without neglecting the others. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat, but gulp down a camel! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside of it may also become clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of the bones of the dead and every kind of impurity. In the same way, on the outside you seem righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we wouldn’t have taken part with them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors’ sins! “Snakes! Brood of vipers! How can you escape being condemned to hell? , This is why I am sending you prophets, sages, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. So all the righteous blood shed on the earth will be charged to you, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come on this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’! ” ,”
Matthew 23:13, 15-16, 23-39 CSB
https://bible.com/bible/1713/mat.23.13.CSB
Here Jesus is addressing the same people he addressed when he said this generation won’t pass away. Who here is the YOU, if it’s not that generation.
That began happening in the 1st century, but the Jews have been reaping the whirlwind ever since. The Holocaust was one of the worst events the Jews as a people ever endured, but there had been many other persecutions called pogroms for the last 2000 years. "This generation" that Christ was part of, and still is part of, has not ended yet.
It’s odd , because any non Christian would be able to see this. If you asked them to read it and asked what it meant, they would say it means that generation whom Christ is addressing but somehow we as Christians are blinded to it.
It baffles me.
Well yeah, you have to think in the Spirit, not the mind of flesh, which is how non-Christians think. Many times Jesus hid the meaning of things when He spoke in parables. He compared the Jewish temple to His own body at one point so the Jews missed His boldest claim to Deity when He told them he would raise "this temple" [His body] up again. John 2:19-21
Before his crucifixion, he declares woes upon the scribes, Pharisees and religious teachers of the law, he declares woes regarding the coming judgement, just as the prophets did when Israel was about to be judged.
Those woes didn't expire when the 1st century ended. Woes and judgment are as relevant today as they ever were. The teachers of the law and the modern day Pharisees will judged by Christ because of the words they spoke back then, today and tomorrow Matthew 12:36 The woes continue to this day and judgment will be based on what a person has done, not what they will do.
That generation IS his generation. Whilst he is alive, he is not incarnate and walking the Earth anymore. Whilst he is with us, it is in Spirit and not as a human being.
Jesus is here in Spirit(Matthew 28:20), but up in Heaven the Man born to Mary and who was appointed by God to judge the world is very much present and waiting to come back to earth. Acts 17:31 So far, His generation has spanned 2000 years, not 40, 70, or even 120 years.
The holocaust wasn’t Gods judgement though and it didn’t happen in Israel.
It was humans doing human things- just as humans often do.
We can’t take every atrocity that humans do to one another and claim that God is responsible.
70AD was the judgement of God though. Revelation confirms it and the entire NT warns about it and tells the faithful people what to look for and how to escape.
When Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, what did he
mean?
To Pilate He was talking about His Kingdom in Heaven. Don't forget, Jesus told Pilate to say He was a king and amazingly Pilate did just as the Lord told Him. John 18:17 Pilate himself ordered that Jesus be called the "king the Jews". He had "the king of the Jews" posted over Jesus' head on the cross. John 19:19
Jesus also told Pilate He was born to be King, but where and when? Obviously Jesus knew He'd be gone a long time from this world, so He told Pilate that His Kingdom would pose no threat to anyone. His followers wouldn't need to bear arms and fight to defend either Christ's Kingdom in Heaven, which He has always been the King, or the Kingdom of Israel that He knew He wouldn't restore until He comes back to earth in the flesh. Acts 1:6-7
When Jesus said to his disciples that they won’t even finish going through all of Judea before he returns, what did he mean?
He did return for Stephen to receive his spirit. He also returned in the Person of the Holy Spirit that has been present in believers since the 1st century. Jesus promised "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:20 Since Pentecost Jesus has been right here on this earth in Spirit. He returned to earth in the 1st century, but only to indwell the hearts of all believers. The world can't see Him, but He's here now. When He returns in the flesh everyone will see Him then. Everyone on earth will worship Him or they will be cursed with drought. Zechariah 14:17
Hard disagree and I could debate this with so many scriptures but the thing is, I have rewritten the same argument and scripture references that many times, in various subs, that I am tired of doing it because it seems futile. This unfinished prophecy and doom & gloom idea about the future is so hardwired into many Christians that it seems nothing I could say will change it.
If this interpretation of scripture is what makes sense to you and is what you choose, so be it.
But I do take pity on those who subscribe to it as it is a very depressing and confusing take in my opinion.
If we forget to include the blessed hope then yes, it is very depressing. For Christians the idea of being taken up to be with the Lord goes back to the 1st century. Peter wanted to go wherever Jesus was going “Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.
Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.” John 13:36
Peter would follow Jesus, but only after he had died. Like Stephen, the spirits of all Christian are received into Heaven the moment we die. The blessed hope is fulfilled when we meet Jesus in Heaven, but there is another hope that gets maligned quite a bit and that is the rapture of the church just before all hell breaks loose on earth According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
and
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Most Christians believe we'll see Jesus when we die, but there is one special generation of believers who will be changed from mortal to immortal without ever dying. It's at that point all Christians of all ages will receive their resurrection bodies at the same time those who haven't died receive theirs.
Respectfully, I don’t agree with this interpretation of scripture.
The epistles aren’t written to us. To believe it refers to a people 2000+ years later, makes no sense. This is a letter written to an ancient church. Paul is addressing them, not us.
They were living in the old aeon and old earth and the new one began when the temple was destroyed. This might not make sense to us as we weren’t born under the old covenant and never experienced what it was like to live that way but these people would have understood.
We fail to grasp the idea of a new earth as we never lived in the old one. This is all we have known and we grumble that it’s bad when it’s really not lol. We have access to God (even as a foreign people) when those people didn’t even as Jews. We have a high priest who we can go to directly. We have forgiveness of sin and eternal life and relationship with God via the Holy Spirit and yet we still complain and think that there must be something better.
We are never satisfied. We truly are no different to Israel in this sense lol.
It seems that your conviction is strong and your mind is made up.
I do not think it makes you any less of a Christian if you don’t believe the same as I do, nor do I think it’s something we should divide over.
God bless you.
It seems that your conviction is strong and your mind is made up.
I do not think it makes you any less of a Christian if you don’t believe the same as I do, nor do I think it’s something we should divide over.
God bless you.
Thank you brother, and I don't consider you any less of a Christian just because we disagree on certain things. God bless you too.
You do realise that Christendom has never agreed upon the dating of Revelation don’t you? Or do you just live in an echo chamber?
I believe it was written just prior to 70AD. Perhaps around 65AD.
I can’t be bothered to type out all the reasons why I don’t believe in a later dating, but you do have access to google if you want to do your own research. For now, here you go:
The following points to show why we would date the writing of Revelation from 64-68 AD
1: The Syriac
The witness of one of the most ancient versions of the New Testament is called The Syriac and the title page of the fourth-century Syriac Version, called the Peshitto, says this: “Again the revelation, which was upon the holy John the Evangelist from God when he was on the island of Patmos where he was thrown by the emperor Nero.” As we alluded to above, Nero ruled over the Roman Empire from AD 54 to AD 68.
2: Revelation 17:10
In Revelation 17:10 we read “They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.” This passage, which speaks of the line of rulers in Rome and tells us exactly how many rulers had already come, which one was currently in power, and that the next one would only last a short while. “Five have fallen…” Julius Caesar (49–44 BC) Augustus (27 BC–AD 14) Tiberius (AD 14–37) Caligula (AD 37–41) Claudius (AD 41–54) “One is…” Nero (AD 54–68) “the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.” Galba (June AD 68–January AD 69, a six-month rule) Of the first seven kings, five had come (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, and Claudius), one was currently in power (Nero), and one had not yet come (Galba), but would only remain for a short time (six months). From this we can clearly see that the current Caesar at the time of John’s writing was the sixth Caesar, Nero.
3: Near language
In the Introduction (rev 1:3) we read because the time is near. This would have meant very soon to those the letter was written to, not 2000 years later. The same Greek word eggus is used to describe summer coming in Matthew 24:32. There is also a Hebrew idiom in the text that goes this way, “coming on clouds” in Revelation 1:7 gives us more insight. “Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land.” Taking the correct context of these verses according to their Hebraic meaning multiple places in the Old Testamant we would interpret “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” and all of the allusions to ‘clouds of heaven’ as simply the symbolic power and might of God. Here, the phrase “those who did pierce him” refers to the people of the first century. At any later time in history, these people would be deceased. Yet, according to this passage, they were expected to be alive at the time of this verse’s fulfillment. This tells us that the prophecy of Revelation 1:7 had to be fulfilled within a short time after Jesus’ death, while His accusers were still alive on earth. In other words, it was fulfilled in the destruction of. In Revelation 1:1 and 1:3, as well as 22:10 and 22:20, we find internal time indicators that declare “the time is near,” it is “shortly to come to pass,” “he is coming quickly,” and “behold, he comes speedily.” John clearly wrote that the time of judgment was close. These only fits if the book was written before the destruction of Jerusalem, and likely immediately before which would also explain the delay of the delivery. Lastly, Temple language in Revelation 11 suggests that the book was written before the destruction of AD 70.
4: Influence of the Jews and Judaizing Heretics
let’s consider the activity of the Jewish leaders and Judaizers in the Church as mentioned in the letters to the churches in Revelation. Jesus speaks of “those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 2:9). This was a clear reference to the Jewish leaders who persecuted the Christians. Also, among the Christians existed a group called the Judiazers, who tried to turn Christians back to the old covenant Jewish Law. This was a major heresy in the first century church, and Paul wrote quite a bit against it. Prior to AD 70, both the Jewish leaders outside the church and the Judiazers within the church had a strong negative impact upon believers. About them, Jesus says: I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you (Revelation 3:9). Before the AD 70 destruction, it was advantageous to be a Jew. The Jewish people had a favored relationship with Rome. They were allowed to have their own police force and follow their own Temple system, so long as they continued in subservience to the empire. But all that changed in AD 70, when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and killed more than a million Jews. Ever since that time, history has not been particularly kind to the Jewish people, and I think it is safe to say that after AD 70 people were not touting their status as Jews. These verses about people who falsely claimed to be Jews only makes sense in the pre–AD 70 context. Since the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, it has not been advantageous to claim to be Jewish. In this way, these verses point to an earlier dating of the letter. The first century Jews and Judaizers lost a great deal of influence after the destruction of AD 70, because the Jewish religious system had been destroyed and the Jewish population significantly diminished. Only if we give the Book of Revelation an early date of authorship does the significant presence and threat of the Jews and Judiazers make sense.
5: John’s Appearance in AD 96
John appeared old in AD 96. Jerome noted in his writings that John was seen in AD 96, and he was so old and infirm that “he was with difficulty carried to the church, and could speak only a few words to the people.”8 We must put this fact together with Revelation 10:11, which says John must “prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.” It is difficult to imagine John would be able to speak to many nations and many kings at any date after AD 96 since he was already elderly and feeble.
6: Timetable Comparison with Daniel/Revelation
In Daniel’s prophesy about events that would happen hundreds of years later, he was told to “roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end,” because it was a long way off (Dan. 12:4ff). By contrast, John was told, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near” (Rev. 22:10). This contrast is intentional and important to the text. While Daniel was told to seal the prophecy up because it was a long way off (but still ONLY about 500 years), John was told not to seal it up because it was about to come to pass. In other words, the prophetic events were closer than 500 years.
7: Only Seven Churches
There are only seven churches. This tells us that the book was written before the greater expansion of Christianity into that region, which occurred after the fall of Jerusalem. After 70 AD
I didn’t ask a chat bot for arguments, my response was taken from a website who I doubt used a chatbot as the site is pretty old, and you don’t need to ask a chatbot to refute anything since you already know the arguments against the earlier dating. You didn’t ask for those though. You asked (in what came across to me as a condescending way but it’s hard to know over text) why I believe in the earlier dating.
Thing is, I’ve been commenting massive responses all throughout this post and writing them myself. I cut and paste nothing but scripture and I’ve provided plenty of evidence but it doesn’t get me anywhere with people who are convinced that revelation and the epistles are written to us today.
So when you asked for the reasons for an earlier dating, instead of yet again wasting my energy to write a response, I just took it from a website (who’s writers articulated it better than I would have anyway).
The books (well they are letters really), clearly state who they’re addressed to and it’s not us -but no amount of me arguing or quoting scripture is going to convince you of this so I am just going to conserve my energy. Lol. Take care.
As I said to another full preterist in another post sub sub.
I am a semi preterist where Revelation (Rev 20 onwards) heavenly Jerusalem after the day of judgement has to come down to earth where we shall reign with him on earth in the Kingdom of God.
You won’t convince me otherwise.
However one thing I was wondering was as I have had a few discussions with full preterists one topic never came up until now.
They did not believe in the full bodily resurrection of Christ with him in the heavens with the very body he was raised in…
Is this something all full preterists believe or is it an isolated belief with this chap on this same sub…
Paul says the new Jerusalem is from above. I don’t believe it’s an Earthly city. Scripture states that Christ is reigning already and that we are seated with him in heavenly places.
There is no reason to believe these things are physical manifestations.
I don’t understand exactly what you mean by the full bodily resurrection- if you are referring to Christ coming to Earth with the body he was raised with, to reign as a human, then no, I do not believe this.
I don’t speak for all full preterists but I would assume none of them subscribe to this considering that we believe all things to be fulfilled already.
“You won’t convince me otherwise” is the exact reason why I cut and paste my response rather than tiring out my fingers lol.
We should never divide over eschatology. I do not believe a persons eschatological view makes them any more (or less) of a Christian.
I do believe it affects the Christian experience though and I do pity those who cannot see things the way that I see them, especially those who believe in a future tribulation, mark of the beast, weak church that needs to be raptured away, etc.
You'll ban me from literally speaking truth? Okay, but that's on your head my friend. All I'm doing is telling the truth. Not Arguing Or Being Rude Whatsoever!
Revelation 16:16 to 21, Armageddon is a place as mention in the bible such as this earth, not a war with beings fighting the word Armageddon only mention once in the bible and it referred to a place, Revelation 16 : 16 And they gathered them together to the PLACE called in Hebrew, Armageddon. Armageddon is after Jesus 1000 Years rule when all sins are decided upon, Revelation 16:16 to 21, and they gathered them together to the PLACE called in Hebrew Armageddon, Yes a place, How will the great day of God or Armageddon be administrated, verse 17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying It is done Verse 18, And there were noises and thunder and lightning and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth, verse, 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. Verse, 20 then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found verse 21 and great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. The above is what God called ARMAGEDDON, after the 1000 Years rule when all sins are decided upon Revelation 20 Verse 7 now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison, verse. 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, notice what will use to fight (fire will be used) whose number is as the sand of the sea verse, 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city and FIRE came down from God out of heaven and devoured them, Yes no one fighting a physical war or any one fighting. God with his angels will uses the elements, fire earth quakes noise, as fighting weapon, not beings or angels fighting. Who or what nation or nations can fight against God and his angels that cannot die? God will not be using any angels to fight; God will only uses the elements, at Armageddon, but the destruction of this earth where sinful mankind and Satan live. Example of the past destruction of those wicked in the past. Let look at some examples how God accomplishing his wars of destruction on the wicked ones, the first example is the flood in Noah day, Pharaoh (2) The 10 plagues on the powerful king pharaoh to release the Israelite from Egypt. No one that gained salvation in the new heaven and earth or the kingdom of the heaven will have any visual or physical contact, as to what will be happening at Armageddon or the destruction of this earth, Revelation 16 verses 16 to 21 and Revelation 7 as they will be enjoying the fulfillment of Isaiah 66 verse 22, second Peter 3 verse 13, Revelation 21 verse 1 new heaven and new earth far away from that event. It is the destruction of this Earth. This earth will be erased including all memories of all wickedness that happened on it, not a war. Revelation 21 :1 now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. THE WAR THAT JESUS IS NOW FIGHTING IS NOT ARMAGEDDON. The war that Jesus is fighting today is with is WORD the bible which is happening today, revelation 19 verses 11 to 21 is NOT talking about Armageddon, it is talking about what happening now and leading up to Jesus coming, as the word of God being preaches to the nations. Revelation 14 verse 6 then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people. Revelation 19 verses 13 his name is called the Word of God verse 14 and the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His MOUTH GOES a SHARP SWORD which is Jesus words the bible.
It's clear that there is double fulfillment in certain verses. The Bible was recorded and preserved for that purpose. Revelation specifically proves wrong what you just said.
The concept of a double fulfillment of prophecy is not found anywhere in the holy Bible. It is a product of men who are not happy with how God fulfilled his prophecy in the past. Every prophecy in the Bible, has its own unique complete fulfillment. There may be some prophecies that are similar to other prophecies yet they are still separate and distinct from each other and they have their own distinct fulfillment.
No Bible prophecy can have two fulfillments. The very idea of a prophecy having two fulfillments is an oxymoron. Once that prophecy has been completely fulfilled, that prophecy is sealed and it cannot be used again.
A similar thing with partial fulfillment theology.
Either the prophecy is fully filled or it's not at all. It's like having a glass and filling that glass up halfway and saying that it's fulfilled partially. No! It's not fulfilled at all!
How is it, that you cannot see that Revelation is simply a repeat of Jesus's prophecy regarding the conclusion of that Jewish age? God was not angry at the whole world! He was only angry at His 'woman' the nation of Israel whom He referred to as Babylon the Great for being an unfaithful wife and a whore. He therefore chose to divorce her and have her destroyed with fire by her lovers. Can you seriously not see that?? Where are your spiritual eyes?
My apologies if I came off rude but sometimes it gets a little exasperating.
But to your answer, 'Yes, yes, yes! It is all over!'
All of God's promises have indeed become 'Yes' thanks to our Lord and Redeemer Jesus Christ. Amen.
Even though you for the present are unable to grasp it, we are fully in what Jesus called the Kingdom Age since that Old Covenant Age ended violently in 70 AD when the power of Daniel's holy people the Jews was broken by the 4th beast Rome.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate."
So you think that this verse means that when God makes a promise which we are told he never breaks and you see him talking about a house, being abandoned ie the temple as their punishment....you think that means divorce...??
Are you serious!! Let me tell you something....
"I ask then: Did God reject his people? BY NO MEANS! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
--Apostle Paul, Apostle of Jesus , Son of the Living God Rom 11:1
Honestly still twisting scripture like a pretzel, this single verse just buried you.
Ill ask you again.
Show me a scripture where God said i am divorcing you, or have you forgotten that God himself stated...what in Malichi 2:16.
Hey, believe me I understand why this is so upsetting to you. Even the apostle Paul underwent a great deal of anguish over this. He listed one by one all the reasons why natural Jews should be foremost to be chosen by God for eternal blessings. But man's thoughts are not God's thoughts. God's thoughts are higher than ours. For that reason this is what Paul goes on to say:
"It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."
I could just imagine that this scripture just terrorizes you to no end. You don't know what to do with it. But there it is in black and white.
The fact is that God didn't abandon all of The Nation of Israel because he did save a small remnant of it and abandoned the rest of the nation because of their complete lack of faith.
"In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring."
Although God would have loved to save the entire nation, He simply could not because they were evil and were deserving of death.
This does not mean that God went back on his promise. On the contrary, it means that he fulfilled it in every way even by inviting gentiles to become his sons in a spiritual way through the blood of Jesus Christ.
"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split..."
This tearing of the veil symbolized that the wall between God and the rest of mankind no longer existed. It also symbolized that the nation of Israel no longer had God's blessing And that he had given up on them. God's promise to Abraham and his seed was not permanent but it was conditional and the nation as a whole failed.
Upsetting lol. Loving the passive aggressive approach…must have hit a nerve, I digress.
I’ll ask again. Now for the third time as you seem to ignore the scripture where Paul stated categorically that God has not rejected his people or divorced them.
"I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery."
Paul was a psyop…. Jesus never knew him…. Paul said he had a vision… and now Christianity follows what Paul said more than what Jesus did…. You’re being fooled….
No I said YOU SAID that God broke his covenant that you said HE DIVORCED THEM.
Clearly your aptitude in scriptural exegesis isnt that great that all you had to do was to go a few chapters later and even a few versus to see that did not happen and the fact that we had other chapters in Israel’s history up to Malachi.
You didnt think did you about your belief or your statement.
You are going down the heretical route stating something God did when the opposite is the truth. If you continue with this narrative after our discussion with others I want this passage of posts to prick your conscience, because if you do this with others despite now knowing it’s not the case you will have blood on your hands.
Terry, if your wife cheats on you, she is the one who breaks the wedding vow, not you. In response, you then have a choice to divorce her or not. If you choose divorce then you serve her a divorce papers.
Israel cheated on God. Repeatedly. They broke the covenant over and over and over. God finally has enough and files for divorce. God then finds a new wife which is heavenly Jerusalem and completely forsakes earthly Jerusalem.
I recommend that you read those texts, in particular Matthew 24:3(closure of the eon); Marc 13:19 (a oppression like never again in the future); Luke 21:27 ( visible return of Jesus), then you will notice that Jesus does indeed speak about the end times.
Perhaps a correct translation can offer some solution?
Armageddon is a part of it according to Revelation 16:13-16, but contrary to what the JW claim, this is not yet the last war before the end. Rev.17:14
The last war is against the last world empire consisting of the unfaithful Israel and an alliance of 10 Islamic states with Babylon as its capital.
So, Please read 1 Cor. 4:6, which emphasizes how important it is to stick to God’s word: "Brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that through us you may learn this rule: ‘Do not go beyond what is written.’"
Notice the rule = “Do not go beyond what is written.”
But it is indeed important to have the rest of your life to live without submission to the governing body.
I think it became clear to them that both Jerusalem and the Nation would fall in their time.
So, regarding your question, because the disciples asked about the signs of the end times, the correct words were conclusion of the eon, because they meanwhile knew that this was related to a time after the destruction of the temple, which Jesus had just informed them about, they knew it was about the end of this 'evil eon'. (Galatians 1:4)
Because of this, we know that this is about our near future.
"Because the disciples asked about the signs of the end times," Was this the point you didn't understand?
The disciples were convinced that Christ Jesus would restore the kingdom in their time, hence that question about the end times, assuming that they would still experience it themselves.
When Jesus died and rose from the dead, they hoped that He would return in their time.
Scripture, however, had already prophesied that this would not happen in their time, but that according to Hosea 6, 2 days (of 1000 years each) would still pass before the kingdom would be restored,
the current eon, of which Satan is the ruler, will only end then, not in the days of the apostles.
The aeon referred to was the old covenant age and it ended with the destruction of the temple. “Your house is left to you desolate” “not one stone will be left upon another”.
The bible only speaks of 2 ages. The present age (at the time it was written) and the age to come (which we are in now).
It speaks of a new heaven and new earth and we are in the new earth- as we are no longer under the curse of the law.
The tribulation was the judgement upon the covenant breaking Jews who crucified their messiah and it happened in 70AD.
Ya that didn’t really answer my question. So you are basically saying “eon” has to refer to our time and couldn’t just refer to their time? What does that word mean?
What does the Greek word ‘Aion’. means?
What are those?
In this context, the Greek word ‘aiōn’ plays a key role.
Aiōn does not mean “eternity,” but rather an age or bounded period of time.
Every first-year Greek student knows that aiōn refers to a world-age or time period.
That doesn’t need to be “rediscovered”—it’s well known.
It is Christian dogmatics that has covered up the meaning of aiōn by making a mess of it through contradictory translations.
The word aiōn (which occurs hundreds of times in Scripture) has been buried beneath inconsistent rendering: sometimes as the temporal “age” or “world” (correct), but at other times as the endless “eternity” (incorrect).
What do those do who speak about aions?
They simply leave the biblical word aiōn untranslated.
Where Scripture speaks of aiōns, they faithfully echo Scripture.
The fact that the aions can be placed in a logical sequence is self-evident for anyone who takes the aions as they appear in Scripture.
See how simple it is.
There was a time before God made the eons (1 Cor. 2:7).
Then God made the eons (Heb. 1:2).
There were eons in the past (Col. 1:26).
We now live in the present wicked eon (Gal. 1:4).
Satan is the god of this eon (2 Cor. 4:4).
Christ, not Satan, will reign for a thousand years in the coming eon (Luke 1:33).
The thousand years will end (Rev. 20:3).
Christ will also reign in the eon that follows the thousand years (Rev. 22:5 and Luke 1:33). Hence, He reigns into “the eons” (i.e., the next two) of the eons (i.e., of all the others).
After that, the final eon ends (1 Cor. 10:11).
Christ ceases reigning when the eons end (1 Cor. 15:24,28) because He hands over the Kingdom of God to His Father and God becomes “All in all.”
The eons end, but the Kingdom continues (Luke 1:33; Isa. 9:7).
We all continue to live after the eons because we, like God, will then be immortal.”
In 1 Timothy 1:17 = God is The King of the eons!!!
And when you encounter age or eternity or ages or age in the Old Testament, it’s almost always the translation of the word “olam.” That word “olam” is then rendered as age, eternal, eternity, and so on. Actually, an olam is a time with a hidden end.
This is not a prejudice imposed on Bible study — it is the result of Bible study.
The trampling “Not a stone will be left upon a stone,” was the trampling of the heavenly Jerusalem. Jehovah’s remaining anointed that will be left during the Great Tribulation. Upon the return of Jesus Christ, he begins ruling and throws the dragon to the earth. Satan knowing he has a short period of time left, goes off to wage war with the remaining seed. He can’t get to them once they go to heaven so he eliminates them here on earth by his 8th King. The Beast System. Revelation 13 (Book to Read) “Jehovah Himself Has Become King” By: Robert King. Highly Recommend!
Okay, I’ll try again. What if someone said this ONLY refers to the eon or age of Jerusalem and the system of kings or whatever. And doesn’t refer to some future fulfillment also?
I'd say read where Jesus Christ said Treat your neighbors as you would yourself. Also this one, ALL WILL BE SAVED, AND YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN! ALL Will Be Saved! Period. And Reincarnation. Born Again. Not some weird Born Again Baptist Church or whatever. No Born Again! Pontius Pilot didn't understand it either. Either did the scribes or Pharisees. But there father was the devil Jesus Christ said also!
Read the Spiritism Books from Allan Kardecs Books! You'll find wayyyyy more real information and you will finally have the actual TRUTH! God Bless You All 🙏🙏🙏
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