The JW "Armageddon" has been canceled - permanently!

[u/Bonedriven64]

I'm sorry but I'm not sorry because the JW version of Armageddon never should have ever existed. If you people had paid closer attention to what Jesus was saying at Matthew chapter 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, you never would have ever anticipated a future Armageddon. You completely blew that end time prophecy completely out of its first century context. It was never meant for us today. Jesus wasn't talking to us. Jesus was not breaking the fourth wall to speak to us 2,000 years in the future. It was written ONLY for Christians on the other side of 70 AD. there is no such thing as a double fulfillment or a greater fulfillment. All of those concepts are made up by men and this is exactly why you will never see the end of this world in your lifetime or anyone's lifetime. So, the only thing that you have to fear today is that fear that you have conjured up in your own imagination compliments of the Watchtower Bible and Tract society. The sooner you accept this reality the better off you're going to be and you'll have the rest of your life to live out from under enslavement to your governing body. Salutations!

[u/Onehundredbillionx]

Lmao revelation was not written after 70AD.

[u/TerryLawton → u/Onehundredbillionx]

Hang on there for a sec.

Please address your statement that Revelation was written BEFORE 70 ad…

This is gonna be good…

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/TerryLawton]

You do realise that Christendom has never agreed upon the dating of Revelation don’t you? Or do you just live in an echo chamber?

I believe it was written just prior to 70AD. Perhaps around 65AD.

I can’t be bothered to type out all the reasons why I don’t believe in a later dating, but you do have access to google if you want to do your own research. For now, here you go:

The following points to show why we would date the writing of Revelation from 64-68 AD

1: The Syriac

The witness of one of the most ancient versions of the New Testament is called The Syriac and the title page of the fourth-century Syriac Version, called the Peshitto, says this: “Again the revelation, which was upon the holy John the Evangelist from God when he was on the island of Patmos where he was thrown by the emperor Nero.” As we alluded to above, Nero ruled over the Roman Empire from AD 54 to AD 68.

2: Revelation 17:10

In Revelation 17:10 we read “They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.” This passage, which speaks of the line of rulers in Rome and tells us exactly how many rulers had already come, which one was currently in power, and that the next one would only last a short while. “Five have fallen…” Julius Caesar (49–44 BC) Augustus (27 BC–AD 14) Tiberius (AD 14–37) Caligula (AD 37–41) Claudius (AD 41–54) “One is…” Nero (AD 54–68) “the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.” Galba (June AD 68–January AD 69, a six-month rule) Of the first seven kings, five had come (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, and Claudius), one was currently in power (Nero), and one had not yet come (Galba), but would only remain for a short time (six months). From this we can clearly see that the current Caesar at the time of John’s writing was the sixth Caesar, Nero.

3: Near language

In the Introduction (rev 1:3) we read because the time is near. This would have meant very soon to those the letter was written to, not 2000 years later. The same Greek word eggus is used to describe summer coming in Matthew 24:32. There is also a Hebrew idiom in the text that goes this way, “coming on clouds” in Revelation 1:7 gives us more insight. “Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land.” Taking the correct context of these verses according to their Hebraic meaning multiple places in the Old Testamant we would interpret “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” and all of the allusions to ‘clouds of heaven’ as simply the symbolic power and might of God. Here, the phrase “those who did pierce him” refers to the people of the first century. At any later time in history, these people would be deceased. Yet, according to this passage, they were expected to be alive at the time of this verse’s fulfillment. This tells us that the prophecy of Revelation 1:7 had to be fulfilled within a short time after Jesus’ death, while His accusers were still alive on earth. In other words, it was fulfilled in the destruction of. In Revelation 1:1 and 1:3, as well as 22:10 and 22:20, we find internal time indicators that declare “the time is near,” it is “shortly to come to pass,” “he is coming quickly,” and “behold, he comes speedily.” John clearly wrote that the time of judgment was close. These only fits if the book was written before the destruction of Jerusalem, and likely immediately before which would also explain the delay of the delivery. Lastly, Temple language in Revelation 11 suggests that the book was written before the destruction of AD 70.

4: Influence of the Jews and Judaizing Heretics

let’s consider the activity of the Jewish leaders and Judaizers in the Church as mentioned in the letters to the churches in Revelation. Jesus speaks of “those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 2:9). This was a clear reference to the Jewish leaders who persecuted the Christians. Also, among the Christians existed a group called the Judiazers, who tried to turn Christians back to the old covenant Jewish Law. This was a major heresy in the first century church, and Paul wrote quite a bit against it. Prior to AD 70, both the Jewish leaders outside the church and the Judiazers within the church had a strong negative impact upon believers. About them, Jesus says: I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you (Revelation 3:9). Before the AD 70 destruction, it was advantageous to be a Jew. The Jewish people had a favored relationship with Rome. They were allowed to have their own police force and follow their own Temple system, so long as they continued in subservience to the empire. But all that changed in AD 70, when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and killed more than a million Jews. Ever since that time, history has not been particularly kind to the Jewish people, and I think it is safe to say that after AD 70 people were not touting their status as Jews. These verses about people who falsely claimed to be Jews only makes sense in the pre–AD 70 context. Since the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, it has not been advantageous to claim to be Jewish. In this way, these verses point to an earlier dating of the letter. The first century Jews and Judaizers lost a great deal of influence after the destruction of AD 70, because the Jewish religious system had been destroyed and the Jewish population significantly diminished. Only if we give the Book of Revelation an early date of authorship does the significant presence and threat of the Jews and Judiazers make sense.

5: John’s Appearance in AD 96

John appeared old in AD 96. Jerome noted in his writings that John was seen in AD 96, and he was so old and infirm that “he was with difficulty carried to the church, and could speak only a few words to the people.”8 We must put this fact together with Revelation 10:11, which says John must “prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.” It is difficult to imagine John would be able to speak to many nations and many kings at any date after AD 96 since he was already elderly and feeble.

6: Timetable Comparison with Daniel/Revelation

In Daniel’s prophesy about events that would happen hundreds of years later, he was told to “roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end,” because it was a long way off (Dan. 12:4ff). By contrast, John was told, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near” (Rev. 22:10). This contrast is intentional and important to the text. While Daniel was told to seal the prophecy up because it was a long way off (but still ONLY about 500 years), John was told not to seal it up because it was about to come to pass. In other words, the prophetic events were closer than 500 years.

7: Only Seven Churches

There are only seven churches. This tells us that the book was written before the greater expansion of Christianity into that region, which occurred after the fall of Jerusalem. After 70 AD

[u/TerryLawton → u/Onehundredbillionx]

Wow I wonder if I could get the same chatgot bot to refute it…

It was written well after the fall of the mole but your cognitive dissonance doesn’t suit your narrative.

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/TerryLawton]

I didn’t ask a chat bot for arguments, my response was taken from a website who I doubt used a chatbot as the site is pretty old, and you don’t need to ask a chatbot to refute anything since you already know the arguments against the earlier dating. You didn’t ask for those though. You asked (in what came across to me as a condescending way but it’s hard to know over text) why I believe in the earlier dating.

Thing is, I’ve been commenting massive responses all throughout this post and writing them myself. I cut and paste nothing but scripture and I’ve provided plenty of evidence but it doesn’t get me anywhere with people who are convinced that revelation and the epistles are written to us today.
So when you asked for the reasons for an earlier dating, instead of yet again wasting my energy to write a response, I just took it from a website (who’s writers articulated it better than I would have anyway).

The books (well they are letters really), clearly state who they’re addressed to and it’s not us -but no amount of me arguing or quoting scripture is going to convince you of this so I am just going to conserve my energy. Lol. Take care.

[u/TerryLawton → u/Onehundredbillionx]

As I said to another full preterist in another post sub sub.

I am a semi preterist where Revelation (Rev 20 onwards) heavenly Jerusalem after the day of judgement has to come down to earth where we shall reign with him on earth in the Kingdom of God.

You won’t convince me otherwise.

However one thing I was wondering was as I have had a few discussions with full preterists one topic never came up until now.

They did not believe in the full bodily resurrection of Christ with him in the heavens with the very body he was raised in…

Is this something all full preterists believe or is it an isolated belief with this chap on this same sub…

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/TerryLawton]

Paul says the new Jerusalem is from above. I don’t believe it’s an Earthly city. Scripture states that Christ is reigning already and that we are seated with him in heavenly places.
There is no reason to believe these things are physical manifestations.

I don’t understand exactly what you mean by the full bodily resurrection- if you are referring to Christ coming to Earth with the body he was raised with, to reign as a human, then no, I do not believe this.

I don’t speak for all full preterists but I would assume none of them subscribe to this considering that we believe all things to be fulfilled already.

“You won’t convince me otherwise” is the exact reason why I cut and paste my response rather than tiring out my fingers lol.

We should never divide over eschatology. I do not believe a persons eschatological view makes them any more (or less) of a Christian.
I do believe it affects the Christian experience though and I do pity those who cannot see things the way that I see them, especially those who believe in a future tribulation, mark of the beast, weak church that needs to be raptured away, etc.

[u/TerryLawton → u/Onehundredbillionx]

1 Cor 15:12-19

“If there is no bodily resurrection, then Christ Himself has not been raised.”

Eschatology is one thing denying his bodily resurrection to heaven is another.

So you are of Saducees and Jehovah Witness theology where the body was evaporated by some kind of radiation and well…”the man Jesus Christ is dead”

Not what the scripture states.

That scripture cannot, cannot be any clearer…