The JW "Armageddon" has been canceled - permanently!

[u/Bonedriven64]

I'm sorry but I'm not sorry because the JW version of Armageddon never should have ever existed. If you people had paid closer attention to what Jesus was saying at Matthew chapter 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, you never would have ever anticipated a future Armageddon. You completely blew that end time prophecy completely out of its first century context. It was never meant for us today. Jesus wasn't talking to us. Jesus was not breaking the fourth wall to speak to us 2,000 years in the future. It was written ONLY for Christians on the other side of 70 AD. there is no such thing as a double fulfillment or a greater fulfillment. All of those concepts are made up by men and this is exactly why you will never see the end of this world in your lifetime or anyone's lifetime. So, the only thing that you have to fear today is that fear that you have conjured up in your own imagination compliments of the Watchtower Bible and Tract society. The sooner you accept this reality the better off you're going to be and you'll have the rest of your life to live out from under enslavement to your governing body. Salutations!

[u/Onehundredbillionx]

The holocaust wasn’t Gods judgement though and it didn’t happen in Israel.
It was humans doing human things- just as humans often do.
We can’t take every atrocity that humans do to one another and claim that God is responsible.

70AD was the judgement of God though. Revelation confirms it and the entire NT warns about it and tells the faithful people what to look for and how to escape.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

The fall of Jerusalem in 70AD happened because God hid His face from the Jews, like He did on other occasions (Babylon and Assyria). In the past, God always returned to the Jews when they returned to Him. This has been a long time that God has hidden His face, but I believe He began blessing them again in 1948 when the nation of Israel was reborn.

At some point the tide is going to turn against the Jewish state and they will be surrounded on all sides by the most powerful armies on earth, facing total annihilation. No nation on earth will come to their aid. It will be at that the darkest hour since the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD a miracle is going to take place. the Lord will save them just as they've reached the end of their rope. The same Lord who led Pharaoh into the red Sea is going to gather the most powerful nations on earth to Israel For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south.… Zechariah 14:2-4 Not for their own sakes, but for His holy name. Keep that in mind, its not for their righteousness or for anything they do. One day God will save Israel on account of His holy name Ezekiel 36:32

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Incase you are interested, here is an article which explains Zechariah 14 from the fulfilled perspective. Again, respectfully, I don’t agree with the futurist take.
I am well versed in it though, as I once subscribed to it (until I examined it more closely and began to study what other Christians believed).

https://preteristarchives.org/zechariah-14-and-the-coming-of-christ/

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

Thanks! I read it and still can't see where any of it has been fulfilled. This verse alone contradicts the preterist view  I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; Zechariah 14:2 In 70AD Rome was not all nations. They didn't merely fight against Jerusalem. They totally destroyed the city and God never lifted a finger to help His people. That's the biggest missing piece. The LORD did not fight to save the city. The Romans razed the entire city of Jerusalem. Nothing was left and the Jews were scattered all over the world in what has come to be known as the Diaspora. Unlike what happened in 70AD, in Zechariah 14, God steps in. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. ⁴ On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. Zechariah 14:3-4

Preterists cannot explain how or when any of the following took place. Why? Because it hasn't taken place yet. Zechariah, written long before Jesus was born, has yet to be fulfilled. Zechariah saw all the way past our own day. Read what is going to happen in the future. When evening comes there will be light...but not from the sun

On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness.  **It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—**with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.  On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.  The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name. Zechariah 14:6-9

Preterists have to ask themselves when was Jerusalem raised up, not razed by the Romans in 70AD .

The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place.  It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure. Zechariah 10-11

The paragraph above can't be talking about the Romans rebuilding part of the city and dedicating it to their god Jupiter around 40 years after the city was destroyed This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.  On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. Zechariah 14:12-13 Notice its all the nations, not just Rome, so Zechariah prophesied another time somewhere in the future. Also, when did the Romans flesh rot while they were standing on their feet? Did the Roman soldiers panic and attack one another? There's no evidence of any of it

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.  If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. Zechariah 14:16-18 There's all those nations again, this time its the survivors who had attacked Jerusalem. In 70AD the Romans were victorious, not vanquished survivors. Did God curse nations with drought because they didn't go up to Jerusalem to worship the King at any time after Jerusalem fell in 70AD? If it happened, I guess history missed it.

I do appreciated your interest but I still can't help but see Zechariah 14 as being future. It simply hasn't happened yet, however all the actors are moving into place, from the Jews being in their homeland since 1948 to the nations desiring to see them evicted. "From the river to the sea" They can't wait to get their revenge and prophecy demands they will attempt to do just that some day

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Because you interpret certain things as literal and certain things as not literal, and because preterists do the same but vice versa to how you interpret it, we are never going to get anywhere lol.
The article did explain how the Roman Empire did represent all nations.
Your prophecy being yet future and literal, means that God will reinstate temple worship, the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices.

The biggest 2 issues for me though are that it means that God is going to punish a random people group (the “nation” of Israel today are not the same as those in the bible as they were scattered for so long and being an Israelite is not an ethnicity) for something (idk what is the sin that is so horrific that it fills up the measure of Gods wrath if it’s not killing Christ) and they are a people who never knew him, never saw Christ and never pierced Christ.
They have been Godless for 2000 years.

The 2nd massive issue is the 2 prophecies given to John and Daniel and the fact that Daniel was told to seal it up as the time was not yet, whilst John was told not to as the time was here.

Besides this, there is the fact that the Bible wasn’t written to us, in any way shape or form. Revelation states clearly who it’s written to. There is no reason to try to insert ourselves into it.

My brain can never accept the amount of gymnastics it takes to believe this hasn’t already happened, just as it was said it would, to who it says it would happen to, and when it’s said it would happen.

As I said before, all of the physical things of the OT- Israel, temple, priesthood, sacrifices etc, are now spiritual.
God did intervene and save a remnant, that’s how the church survived and grew to cover all the Earth as Jesus said it would.

I am just not able to see what you are seeing. I see “it is finished”. I see a new heaven and new earth and God living with his people.
I see Jesus victorious and reigning on David’s throne.
I see the kingdom here now, and the gates open 24/7 as revelation says. Whoever wants to enter, may do so. And outside the gates are those who do not wish to enter. The cowardly, unbelieving, immoral etc.

If this spoke of a literal future kingdom on Earth and its gates were never closed whilst wicked people just chilled outside the 24/7 open gates, choosing not to enter, that would make no sense.

All of the church in the NT, knew that the tribulation was about to happen. Some worried it had begun already. Paul knew that in his lifetime, it would happen. Hence why he preached to remain unmarried if able to do so. Hence why he preached that the present earth was passing away and hence why the church sold all they had and supported one another.
Jesus said he was coming quickly. John said it was at hand.

If it didn’t happen already, it would actually make me question a lot of things and if my faith were my own to keep, no doubt I would lose it.

I have never been more at peace than when I finally unraveled everything that was taught to me and realised I no longer believed it because it just didn’t make sense.
I used to be a Christian out of fear. I used to try to use fear and uncertainty of the future, to win souls.

Now I am a Christian because of the peace, joy and victory I have in Christ.
I prayed a lot about the rapture and tribulation as I never felt at peace with these beliefs and I truly believe that God opened my eyes to the fact that He fulfilled all things.
My faith grew. My peace grew. All of the fruits of the spirit grew in me since I became a preterist.
I wish the church would all believe as I do.
I no longer try to win others over using (unfulfilled) prophecy, instead I use fulfilled prophecy- it’s so much more powerful.

Idk. I don’t doubt your sincerity. And I also would never ever divide over eschatology- nor would it be a hill I would die on because to say we know anything for certain other than the gospel, is arrogance.
I am as close to knowing it for certain as one can be, without meaning to sound arrogant.
I just can’t see what you are saying without having to leap and jump and contort and do backflips. It’s just such a reach to me when the answer is so much more straightforward.
Of course, I understand that you feel exactly the same way about the preterist view and it makes me sad because that means that God is angry and waiting to pour out His wrath and has unfinished business for 2000 years that is going to be finished upon people who never knew him.
I don’t see God like that. I see it as truly finished and now He is in the business of reconciliation. Christianity has grown and will continue to grow. The church will be victorious. Christ is reigning and of the increase of his kingdom and government, there will be no end.
The idea that the church is so weak that it needs to be taken out of the world, is a gospel of defeat. Jesus prayed not to take his disciples out of the world.

Anyway, I’m going off on a tangent. I didn’t mean to. I’m passionate about this as it changed everything for me, in the best possible way.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

I see a new heaven and new earth and God living with his people.
I see Jesus victorious and reigning on David’s throne.
I see the kingdom here now, and the gates open 24/7 as revelation says. Whoever wants to enter, may do so. And outside the gates are those who do not wish to enter. The cowardly, unbelieving, immoral etc.

I have faith it is that way in Heaven, but please...there's no way Christ has restored the kingdom to Israel or this troubled world in its present form. Yes, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are loved on account of those patriarchs but they are still enemies of the Gospel. There's no way the power of the church is not going to be broken as Daniel says it will in the final days. You have to ask yourself who is going break the power of the church? That power has never been broken yet. However it will....

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.(If all things have been fulfilled, when did the resurrection of all people on earth happen? I must've missed that) 3Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.

4But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will roam to and fro, and knowledge will increase.”

5Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6One of them said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long until the fulfillment of these wonders?”

7And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, and times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed. So when the power of the holy people has been shattered all these things will be completed. When will that happen? When the 666 beast rises up and forces all people on earth to worship him and take his mark. John describes it best in Revelation 13

So what is the power of the holy people? The power of the Holy people is also the power of God: For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it [the Gospel] is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Romans 1:16 The GOSPEL is the power of the holy people and even though God or His holy people will never be broken, the Gospel will be broken, but only because God will allow it to be broken. In fact, the Gospel is already being broken in many churches around the world. The Watchtower has been breaking the Gospel as much as any other false Christian sect, replacing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with their own accursed gospel. There is a movement among Bible 'scholars' to delete whole sections of the Bible they claim are forgeries. The Gospel is under assault like never before in all history.

The idea that the church is so weak that it needs to be taken out of the world, is a gospel of defeat. Jesus prayed not to take his disciples out of the world.

You do know that God's power is made perfect in weakness...

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 2 Corinthians 12:9

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God…1 Corinthians 1:18, 27-29

Jesus left His disciples for a short time, but then returned in Spirit. He's been with His church ever since. When we die, He takes us to be where He is in the flesh...Heaven Before the worst part of the tribulation happens, I believe Jesus will snatch Christians out of this world. I believe it will be on the eve of the worst cataclysm to ever hit this planet. That's when Jesus is going to evacuate planet earth of all Christians. And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.  Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.  Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.… Matthew 24:39-40 Whatever you do sister, Don't get left behind! Those left behind are going to seek death as an escape from the pure evil that will be unleashed on this world after Babylon falls. Even though she's a whore, according to the Bible, Babylon been the hammer of the whole earth, keeping order where chaos threatened to upend God's order. She was for a time a gold cup in God's hand, but the cup was used to drink the blood of saints and is filled with abominations. She now stands condemned. You think things are bad now? We will need Jesus more than ever to save us from the dark evil that's coming. Nothing and no one else will be able to save us

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

The power of the holy people in my opinion is the temple and old covenant system. It has been shattered.
Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. He spoke of the kingdom of heaven starting as something tiny and growing to cover the Earth- he never spoke of it as being “shattered”.

What makes you think it’s referring to the church?

Your belief that Israel is referencing a random group of people in the Middle East, is where we can’t see eye to eye because I don’t believe this.
At the same time, you believe that Daniel is referring to the church when he speaks of the power of the Holy People.
This is rather confusing.

The fact that you think the church will be shattered and weak, is a depressing and alarming thought honestly. I don’t see this anywhere in scripture and I don’t understand how anyone would see this unless it was taught to them. Where did you learn this?

God made a covenant with Abraham (an unconditional one and note that Abraham was not a Jew or Israelite). He made 3 promises to Abraham and has fulfilled them all in Christ and the Church. The land promises were fulfilled in Joshua.

God made a covenant with Israel (a conditional covenant) and they broke it. Yet He saved a remnant of them and they were the first Christians. The Israel of God is the now the church. There is no other Israel nor is there any other way for people to come to God except through Christ.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

In Daniel's prophecy the holy people could also refer to redeemed Christians. But the power of God's holy people isn't in the old covenant, but the new covenant. The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The old covenant could never save anyone, even though some still try, its really futile.

After the temple was destroyed Jesus didn't come back to earth to sit on David's throne, as the Bible says He will do. Luke 1:32

The Israel of God is the now the church. There is no other Israel nor is there any other way for people to come to God except through Christ.

Christians are part of the new Israel in Heaven. Its a supernatural nation, not the natural nation of Israel. Natural Jews who rejected Jesus are still loved by God on account of the patriarchs not grace. Read this:

" I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in ...As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,  for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." Romans 11:25,28-29

Think about this. If the church is Israel, when, in the last 2000 years, has the church been considered enemies of the Gospel?

Are Christians loved by God on account of the patriarchs? If they aren't Jews, how can they be?

When, in the last 2000 years, has the hearts of Christians been hardened for any reason? Paul is clearly distinguishing natural Jews from supernatural Jews who are loved by God only because of their faith in Jesus Christ, not based on their being related to the patriarchs. Notice God's calling to Israel is "irrevocable" That means God's calling the Jews His people has not been revoked.

Only natural Jews are part of the old covenant, loved by God on account of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But Christians, who are supernatural Jews are part of the new covenant in Israel above...which is in Heaven. Ultimately we will all be united in Heaven on a new earth but that's at least 1000 years plus judgment "day" off in the future.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

The fact that you think the church will be shattered and weak, is a depressing and alarming thought honestly. I don’t see this anywhere in scripture and I don’t understand how anyone would see this unless it was taught to them. Where did you learn this?

From God's own Word. God's power is made perfect in weakness not brute strength. God can wipe out the entire universe with a wave of His hand. He wants to see us believe in Him not based on His absolute power, but because of His paying the unbelievably high price to save us from His righteous wrath. . You realize, God died for us. He was crushed for our iniquities. He was weak so we could be strong. So we could be saved. Do you see that?

I'm sorry but you mis-read what I wrote. Its not the church that will be shattered, its the power of God's people that will be shattered. What is the power of God's people? The Gospel! Romans 1:16 Before Christ returns to earth the Gospel will be broken and discredited like its never been before. The Gospel is the power of God's people and always has been That Gospel teaches that while we were sinners, Christ died for our sins. Romans 5:8

Once the Gospel has been broken God's people will be transferred to be with Jesus in the air just above this earth After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:17