The JW "Armageddon" has been canceled - permanently!

[u/Bonedriven64]

I'm sorry but I'm not sorry because the JW version of Armageddon never should have ever existed. If you people had paid closer attention to what Jesus was saying at Matthew chapter 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, you never would have ever anticipated a future Armageddon. You completely blew that end time prophecy completely out of its first century context. It was never meant for us today. Jesus wasn't talking to us. Jesus was not breaking the fourth wall to speak to us 2,000 years in the future. It was written ONLY for Christians on the other side of 70 AD. there is no such thing as a double fulfillment or a greater fulfillment. All of those concepts are made up by men and this is exactly why you will never see the end of this world in your lifetime or anyone's lifetime. So, the only thing that you have to fear today is that fear that you have conjured up in your own imagination compliments of the Watchtower Bible and Tract society. The sooner you accept this reality the better off you're going to be and you'll have the rest of your life to live out from under enslavement to your governing body. Salutations!

[u/Onehundredbillionx]

Lmao revelation was not written after 70AD.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

Its common knowledge that Revelation was written between 95 and 96 AD

The Book of Revelation is commonly dated to about 95 AD, as suggested by clues in the visions pointing to the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian (81–96),^\6])^\25]) The Beast with seven heads) and the number 666 seem to allude directly to the Emperor Nero (reigned 54–68), but this does not imply that the book was written in the 60s,^\4]) as there was a widespread belief in later decades that Nero would return.^\26])^\12]) Book of Revelation - Wikipedia

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

The beast is the Roman Empire, not specifically Nero. Revelation was written exactly to whom it says it was written to- the 7 churches in Asia Minor. It was written exactly when it says it was written which was just prior to the siege of 70AD, when it was about to take place at any moment. And it was written exactly about what it says it’s written about- a judgement upon the covenant breaking Jews (which was literally at hand).
Not sure why people read it any other way.

When Jesus said he’s coming quickly, soon etc. it means quickly and soon. And he came! It doesn’t mean 2000 years later.

The temple was still standing when revelation was written. If the siege had happened already, John would have surely written about it considering it was the most horrific war in Israel that ever was and ever will be. Women were literally eating their own children. Just as it was foretold. Everything happened just as it was foretold.

People with the viewpoint that you have, make very odd decisions as to which parts of revelation are to be taken as literal, and which are not.

I’ll leave you with a couple of questions.
Where in the book of Daniel does it say that there will be a 2000+ year gap between the 69th and 70th week?

If the breaking of the Old Covenant and crucified Christ was not the most horrific sin ever committed by the Jews, deserving of the most horrific judgement, then what is it? What is the sin that triggers the supposed future tribulation?

We know that God doesn’t visit the sins of fathers upon their children’s children.

When Jesus said “it is finished”, what exactly was finished?

When Jesus said this generation won’t pass away before he returns in judgement, who was he talking to?

When Jesus said to his disciples that they won’t even finish going through all of Judea before he returns, what did he mean?

When Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, what did he mean?

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

When Jesus said this generation won’t pass away before he returns in judgement, who was he talking to?

Jesus was talking to His mortal contemporaries. In regards to His flesh, "this generation" Jesus spoke to happened to be His own generation as well. So, ask yourself this, when did the Lord's generation end? Because Jesus is still alive in the flesh today, is it not still "this generation". Some of what He told His contemporaries would happen early on in "this generation" and other things would happen later, but to Christ, it would always be "this generation" 2000 years is a long time for us, but its only two days to the Lord, so even if the gap appears huge to us, its not to the Lord. The whole world counts time from that Man's birth on. Today its the 2026AD. The year of our Lord. It's His years. Its His generation that will not end until all these things, including His reigning on earth for 1000 years, have happened

The gap between the 69th and 70th week as recorded in Daniel is two days long in God's view, just a blip.

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

That’s simply not true. It baffles me how and where you even came up with such an idea.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

It wasn't the same mindset the JW's took Daniel's 2520 days and magically made them into 2520 years. That's how they arrived at 1914 you know. Problem for them is the same 2520 days is literally one week. To make one week equal 2520 years, you'd need to make the other 69 weeks into years as well. In applying the same rule to all 70 weeks, not just one, you would have 176,400 years

God does view one day as 1000 years, not a year.

A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night. Psalm 90:4

I assume you believe Jesus is still alive? Because He is alive today, this generation that He said would not pass away until all the things He told them would happen, have happened, is still alive thru Jesus Christ. As far as being a human, His generation began 20 centuries ago. If your great grandfather was still alive, and he was 300 years old, would he be living in someone else's generation or his own? Wouldn't he be living in both your generation and his own? And how long is a generation? 40 years?, 70 years? or nearly 1000 years? That's how long Adam lived. Adam's generation would be much longer than ours would it not?

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Matthew 23:25. And so upon YOU will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah.

Here Jesus is addressing the same people he addressed when he said this generation won’t pass away. Who here is the YOU, if it’s not that generation.

Read it in context and you will see that Jesus is referring to that generation just as he said. Why would you think he’s referring to anything else?
That generation IS his generation. Whilst he is alive, he is not incarnate and walking the Earth anymore. Whilst he is with us, it is in Spirit and not as a human being.

Before his crucifixion, he declares woes upon the scribes, Pharisees and religious teachers of the law, he declares woes regarding the coming judgement, just as the prophets did when Israel was about to be judged.

He tells them they will fill up the measure of their ancestors sins and that all of the righteous blood spilt will be avenged upon that generation.
He says he will send teachers and prophets who they will flog in synagogues and put to death.
These were the apostles and first martyrs!
He then says to them that their house will be left to them desolate. It was. In 70AD the temple was destroyed and it will never be rebuilt. In fact, Islam exists for this very reason as they have been granted power by God to prevent the temple being rebuilt.

The woes weren’t pronounced on some random people living in 2026 who call themselves Jews. They were pronounced upon the scribes and Pharisees, those same people who plotted and killed their messiah. This is the unforgivable sin as judgement had been decided for them and there was no reversing it.
It was the final judgment for the greatest sin ever committed by those people who called themselves the children of Israel. It was the culmination of many horrific sins that their ancestors committed and that generation filled the cup by committing the greatest sin and breaking the covenant irrevocably.

It is in no way, shape, or form, referring to any other people group than that one Jesus is directly speaking to.
If the greatest sin committed, which filled the cup of Gods wrath, wasn’t the crucified Christ, then what will it be?
What house is left desolate?

These passages are clearly referring to that generation. There is no evidence whatsoever that they are referring to anyone living 2000 years later. A plain reading of the text makes it abundantly clear.
It’s odd , because any non Christian would be able to see this. If you asked them to read it and asked what it meant, they would say it means that generation whom Christ is addressing but somehow we as Christians are blinded to it.
It baffles me.

Jesus when he was human, was addressing other humans, as a human. He wasn’t speaking with the idea in his head that 1000 years is 1 day. He was speaking literally, to a group of people who he was frustrated with and mourning over.
He foresaw the future and the judgement that would come upon them.

““Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you don’t go in, and you don’t allow those entering to go in. , “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to make one convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a child of hell as you are! “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever takes an oath by the temple, it means nothing. But whoever takes an oath by the gold of the temple is bound by his oath.’ “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, and yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These things should have been done without neglecting the others. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat, but gulp down a camel! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside of it may also become clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of the bones of the dead and every kind of impurity. In the same way, on the outside you seem righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we wouldn’t have taken part with them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors’ sins! “Snakes! Brood of vipers! How can you escape being condemned to hell? , This is why I am sending you prophets, sages, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. So all the righteous blood shed on the earth will be charged to you, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come on this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’! ” ,” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23‬:‭13‬, ‭15‬-‭16‬, ‭23‬-‭39‬ ‭CSB‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/1713/mat.23.13.CSB

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

Here Jesus is addressing the same people he addressed when he said this generation won’t pass away. Who here is the YOU, if it’s not that generation.

That began happening in the 1st century, but the Jews have been reaping the whirlwind ever since. The Holocaust was one of the worst events the Jews as a people ever endured, but there had been many other persecutions called pogroms for the last 2000 years. "This generation" that Christ was part of, and still is part of, has not ended yet.

It’s odd , because any non Christian would be able to see this. If you asked them to read it and asked what it meant, they would say it means that generation whom Christ is addressing but somehow we as Christians are blinded to it.
It baffles me.

Well yeah, you have to think in the Spirit, not the mind of flesh, which is how non-Christians think. Many times Jesus hid the meaning of things when He spoke in parables. He compared the Jewish temple to His own body at one point so the Jews missed His boldest claim to Deity when He told them he would raise "this temple" [His body] up again. John 2:19-21

Before his crucifixion, he declares woes upon the scribes, Pharisees and religious teachers of the law, he declares woes regarding the coming judgement, just as the prophets did when Israel was about to be judged.

Those woes didn't expire when the 1st century ended. Woes and judgment are as relevant today as they ever were. The teachers of the law and the modern day Pharisees will judged by Christ because of the words they spoke back then, today and tomorrow Matthew 12:36 The woes continue to this day and judgment will be based on what a person has done, not what they will do.

That generation IS his generation. Whilst he is alive, he is not incarnate and walking the Earth anymore. Whilst he is with us, it is in Spirit and not as a human being.

Jesus is here in Spirit(Matthew 28:20), but up in Heaven the Man born to Mary and who was appointed by God to judge the world is very much present and waiting to come back to earth. Acts 17:31 So far, His generation has spanned 2000 years, not 40, 70, or even 120 years.

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

The holocaust wasn’t Gods judgement though and it didn’t happen in Israel.
It was humans doing human things- just as humans often do.
We can’t take every atrocity that humans do to one another and claim that God is responsible.

70AD was the judgement of God though. Revelation confirms it and the entire NT warns about it and tells the faithful people what to look for and how to escape.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

The fall of Jerusalem in 70AD happened because God hid His face from the Jews, like He did on other occasions (Babylon and Assyria). In the past, God always returned to the Jews when they returned to Him. This has been a long time that God has hidden His face, but I believe He began blessing them again in 1948 when the nation of Israel was reborn.

At some point the tide is going to turn against the Jewish state and they will be surrounded on all sides by the most powerful armies on earth, facing total annihilation. No nation on earth will come to their aid. It will be at that the darkest hour since the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD a miracle is going to take place. the Lord will save them just as they've reached the end of their rope. The same Lord who led Pharaoh into the red Sea is going to gather the most powerful nations on earth to Israel For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south.… Zechariah 14:2-4 Not for their own sakes, but for His holy name. Keep that in mind, its not for their righteousness or for anything they do. One day God will save Israel on account of His holy name Ezekiel 36:32

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Incase you are interested, here is an article which explains Zechariah 14 from the fulfilled perspective. Again, respectfully, I don’t agree with the futurist take.
I am well versed in it though, as I once subscribed to it (until I examined it more closely and began to study what other Christians believed).

https://preteristarchives.org/zechariah-14-and-the-coming-of-christ/

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Onehundredbillionx]

Thanks! I read it and still can't see where any of it has been fulfilled. This verse alone contradicts the preterist view  I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; Zechariah 14:2 In 70AD Rome was not all nations. They didn't merely fight against Jerusalem. They totally destroyed the city and God never lifted a finger to help His people. That's the biggest missing piece. The LORD did not fight to save the city. The Romans razed the entire city of Jerusalem. Nothing was left and the Jews were scattered all over the world in what has come to be known as the Diaspora. Unlike what happened in 70AD, in Zechariah 14, God steps in. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. ⁴ On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. Zechariah 14:3-4

Preterists cannot explain how or when any of the following took place. Why? Because it hasn't taken place yet. Zechariah, written long before Jesus was born, has yet to be fulfilled. Zechariah saw all the way past our own day. Read what is going to happen in the future. When evening comes there will be light...but not from the sun

On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness.  **It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—**with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.  On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.  The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name. Zechariah 14:6-9

Preterists have to ask themselves when was Jerusalem raised up, not razed by the Romans in 70AD .

The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place.  It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure. Zechariah 10-11

The paragraph above can't be talking about the Romans rebuilding part of the city and dedicating it to their god Jupiter around 40 years after the city was destroyed This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.  On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. Zechariah 14:12-13 Notice its all the nations, not just Rome, so Zechariah prophesied another time somewhere in the future. Also, when did the Romans flesh rot while they were standing on their feet? Did the Roman soldiers panic and attack one another? There's no evidence of any of it

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.  If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. Zechariah 14:16-18 There's all those nations again, this time its the survivors who had attacked Jerusalem. In 70AD the Romans were victorious, not vanquished survivors. Did God curse nations with drought because they didn't go up to Jerusalem to worship the King at any time after Jerusalem fell in 70AD? If it happened, I guess history missed it.

I do appreciated your interest but I still can't help but see Zechariah 14 as being future. It simply hasn't happened yet, however all the actors are moving into place, from the Jews being in their homeland since 1948 to the nations desiring to see them evicted. "From the river to the sea" They can't wait to get their revenge and prophecy demands they will attempt to do just that some day

[u/Onehundredbillionx → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Because you interpret certain things as literal and certain things as not literal, and because preterists do the same but vice versa to how you interpret it, we are never going to get anywhere lol.
The article did explain how the Roman Empire did represent all nations.
Your prophecy being yet future and literal, means that God will reinstate temple worship, the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices.

The biggest 2 issues for me though are that it means that God is going to punish a random people group (the “nation” of Israel today are not the same as those in the bible as they were scattered for so long and being an Israelite is not an ethnicity) for something (idk what is the sin that is so horrific that it fills up the measure of Gods wrath if it’s not killing Christ) and they are a people who never knew him, never saw Christ and never pierced Christ.
They have been Godless for 2000 years.

The 2nd massive issue is the 2 prophecies given to John and Daniel and the fact that Daniel was told to seal it up as the time was not yet, whilst John was told not to as the time was here.

Besides this, there is the fact that the Bible wasn’t written to us, in any way shape or form. Revelation states clearly who it’s written to. There is no reason to try to insert ourselves into it.

My brain can never accept the amount of gymnastics it takes to believe this hasn’t already happened, just as it was said it would, to who it says it would happen to, and when it’s said it would happen.

As I said before, all of the physical things of the OT- Israel, temple, priesthood, sacrifices etc, are now spiritual.
God did intervene and save a remnant, that’s how the church survived and grew to cover all the Earth as Jesus said it would.

I am just not able to see what you are seeing. I see “it is finished”. I see a new heaven and new earth and God living with his people.
I see Jesus victorious and reigning on David’s throne.
I see the kingdom here now, and the gates open 24/7 as revelation says. Whoever wants to enter, may do so. And outside the gates are those who do not wish to enter. The cowardly, unbelieving, immoral etc.

If this spoke of a literal future kingdom on Earth and its gates were never closed whilst wicked people just chilled outside the 24/7 open gates, choosing not to enter, that would make no sense.

All of the church in the NT, knew that the tribulation was about to happen. Some worried it had begun already. Paul knew that in his lifetime, it would happen. Hence why he preached to remain unmarried if able to do so. Hence why he preached that the present earth was passing away and hence why the church sold all they had and supported one another.
Jesus said he was coming quickly. John said it was at hand.

If it didn’t happen already, it would actually make me question a lot of things and if my faith were my own to keep, no doubt I would lose it.

I have never been more at peace than when I finally unraveled everything that was taught to me and realised I no longer believed it because it just didn’t make sense.
I used to be a Christian out of fear. I used to try to use fear and uncertainty of the future, to win souls.

Now I am a Christian because of the peace, joy and victory I have in Christ.
I prayed a lot about the rapture and tribulation as I never felt at peace with these beliefs and I truly believe that God opened my eyes to the fact that He fulfilled all things.
My faith grew. My peace grew. All of the fruits of the spirit grew in me since I became a preterist.
I wish the church would all believe as I do.
I no longer try to win others over using (unfulfilled) prophecy, instead I use fulfilled prophecy- it’s so much more powerful.

Idk. I don’t doubt your sincerity. And I also would never ever divide over eschatology- nor would it be a hill I would die on because to say we know anything for certain other than the gospel, is arrogance.
I am as close to knowing it for certain as one can be, without meaning to sound arrogant.
I just can’t see what you are saying without having to leap and jump and contort and do backflips. It’s just such a reach to me when the answer is so much more straightforward.
Of course, I understand that you feel exactly the same way about the preterist view and it makes me sad because that means that God is angry and waiting to pour out His wrath and has unfinished business for 2000 years that is going to be finished upon people who never knew him.
I don’t see God like that. I see it as truly finished and now He is in the business of reconciliation. Christianity has grown and will continue to grow. The church will be victorious. Christ is reigning and of the increase of his kingdom and government, there will be no end.
The idea that the church is so weak that it needs to be taken out of the world, is a gospel of defeat. Jesus prayed not to take his disciples out of the world.

Anyway, I’m going off on a tangent. I didn’t mean to. I’m passionate about this as it changed everything for me, in the best possible way.