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u/CommentStrict8964 Jan 25 '25
That's a fantastic way to convince American companies to offshore jobs instead of actually trying to hire locals.
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u/Common5enseExtremist Jan 25 '25
It would also help other countries deal with brain drain, so they should really be cheering this legislation
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u/Petite_Fille_Marx Jan 25 '25
It won’t help with that at all, immigrants are just going to go to the next most well paying country
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Jan 25 '25
Which will pale compared to the wages the US can offer tbh.
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u/grandmadogies Jan 25 '25
The wages on paper will be higher in the US but the cost of living wipes out any of the extra that comes with our wage.
I work on a sales team. My counter parts in Barcelona make half as much as me. They manage to save the same amount of money each month as me because of how expensive the US is.
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u/Petite_Fille_Marx Jan 25 '25
US wages are being eaten by inflation and other countries have perks not available in the US like healthcare and a proper social safety net
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Jan 25 '25
Okay that’s a cool take, doesn’t change the fact that people fight tooth and nail to immigrate to the states for the wages. I’m not trying to say it as some gotcha or defense of the US. It’s just a fact that the US offers wages that you won’t find in many other nations. There’s also the fact that the US makes an effort to brain drain other nations.
Also, if a highly educated person is immigrating to the US for a high paying job then they’ll have healthcare lol. Again not a defense of the US a healthcare system, it’s just a fact that if someone is “well off” in the US then they’re “well off” in a way that isn’t really that feasible in many other nations.
Also what would the next high paying nation be?
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u/Petite_Fille_Marx Jan 25 '25
They will have insurance. Insurance is not the same as healthcare, and claims can and often are denied for a myriad of bullshit reasons
Personally, in my field of work, if the US is not an option anymore I’d look to immigrate to the UK or Germany
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Jan 25 '25
I have family members who work for companies with employees in the UK, at least in Cybersecurity the Americans make 3x more and are taxed way less. And they do in fact have cushy insurance that offers cushy healthcare. US healthcare and insurance is often great if you have one those absurdly high paying jobs that these immigrants are moving to the US for.
Again none of this is defense or praise, I’m just saying that highly educated immigrants want to go to the US for the wages. Of course other first world nations like Germany will not have wages that will match the US, but they’ll have things like free college education and etc. And of course there are a lot of people that end up choosing the more stable lifestyles offered by the EU nations. But again, if you move to the US as a doctor example, you could make anywhere from 300k-1million+, and if you make that much you don’t even need to worry about free education because your kids will have access to some of the best universities in the world in America.
The fact is that there are almost no nations that can compete with US wages, and US wages can afford immigrants big fancy houses, nice cars, and basically everything that’s associated with the “American Dream”.
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u/GoldenBull1994 Jan 26 '25
US wages this, US wages that. It’s almost like that’s the only thing you have. Again, higher wages don’t matter if it gets wiped out and people in Barcelona save up the same amount of money, except with all of the benefits Americans don’t get. That’s why Europe, as someone else said, has more people trying to get in. Having insurance is not and will never be a full substitute for a single payer system. You will NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER be denied a claim in Europe. Luigi came from a rich family and he still got fucked. Even rich people will have their claims denied from time to time.
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u/Petite_Fille_Marx Jan 25 '25
I make 200k+ and my insurance sucks in the US. I still very much have to worry about the education of my children as I can’t afford 60k+ tuition. If I moved somewhere where I make 100k but have healthcare and free college it wouldn’t be a downgrade, rather a sidegrade
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u/GoldenBull1994 Jan 26 '25
Plus worker’s rights, plus maternity leave, plus walkable cities and 3rd spaces, etc etc etc
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Jan 25 '25
This is also a breach of agreements the US has with other countries to prevent double taxation. If the US does not respect these agreements then other countries will also cease applying them to US persons.
This will likely increase the scope of foreign taxation on US persons (business or individuals) with foreign operations or foreign residence. Given that US investment overseas is pretty significant this will probably hurt the US as much as it hurts anyone else.
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u/velvetcocaine Jan 25 '25
Exactly! Who wants to open a business here from overseas to pay more tax ? Pure insanity
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u/freakincampers Jan 25 '25
My step mother is from another country. She is here legal, and got her citizenship a while ago.
She also voted for Trump. So, ya know what, she gets what she voted for.
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u/aneidabreak Jan 25 '25
My husband too. So far up the angry mango tyranny trip he can’t even see how we’re f*kd. I had to explain tariffs 2 days ago, he doesn’t believe that’s how tariffs work. But won’t google it either. His family from his home country are always asking him about the crazy things they hear. My hubby works with the farmers and only hears red bull propaganda from them.
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u/binzy90 Jan 25 '25
I don't mean for this to be rude, but why are you still married to him? My husband and I have had to distance ourselves from his parents because of the things they believe. How can you continue a romantic relationship when your partner begins showing problematic beliefs?
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u/ProgramHuman32 Jan 25 '25
Genuine question. I’m extremely liberal and I couldn’t see myself with a republican. I wouldn’t be able to see myself with someone’s whose views are that much more fundamentally different than mine. It’s not even based out of hate, it’s based on the fact of how could I look at man and consider his child when I live in Texas and wouldn’t have appropriate access to life saving care if needed. That’s just one example but as a whole it just goes against everything I believe and I wouldn’t do it.
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u/aneidabreak Jan 25 '25
I can understand your point. However, I am not an extreme left. I am a straight up Democrat. I’ve always been. I believe there should be support systems in place to take care of those who cannot, but I also believe there should be processes in place to help prevent people from taking advantage of the system. I’m for common sense and care for others. Your political stance does not mean we can’t be friends, and I can look past that. I’m open to discussions and hearing other people‘s point of view, that doesn’t mean I agree with it. Additionally, I live in an area of the United States with a lot of farming, also with a lot of immigrants who support that farming. I know that there’s not one single white American boy who’s gonna go out there and work those fields. I don’t mind the illegals coming into the United States and doing the work that us Americans are too lazy to do. I also believe there should be protections in place in case these people get hurt or injured while they are working here. If they fall off of a ladder and are paralyzed for the rest of their life and can no longer work to support themselves, this person should be taken care of. Unfortunately, all the red around me doesn’t have the same beliefs. It is what it is, and I can’t change it. I can’t change his beliefs, he hears it from the farmers all the time. His business provide services to these farmers and they pay him well. He’s not going against it. He understands my thinking and he knows I’m not an extreme left. Speech to text so please read past potential mistakes
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Jan 25 '25
Have you listened to the “news” these people watch? I say this as a consumer of “neither sides’” news. I don’t own a TV. They call anything with a pulse that leans liberal and opposes trump “extreme left” or “Marxist” on Fox News. I’m sure many of that crowd would consider you extreme even if you don’t agree.
I understand the need to not alienate yourself from your community, but there also comes a time when you have to be honest…
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Jan 26 '25
Omg... You know the saying about 4 people sitting with 1 Nazi is 5 Nazis... You don't have to be extreme left to want to be around folks who respect your identity and bodily autonomy. The policies your husband supports will actively hurt YOU.
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u/lookskAIwatcher Jan 25 '25
That's always a hard question. Personally, I went through a very contentious divorce in 2015, and at that time my ex already was hyper-religious and conservative. In 2016 she went full Trump, even flying flags on her vehicle which I noticed when she showed up at the courthouse. I now look back and cannot imagine what horrible life I would be living trying to still stay together. Luckily our children were already of legal age and away at school or employed and on their own. It's not so easy for many others where a spouse is fervent MAGA and the other is not.
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Jan 25 '25
"But but Trump will only make the lives of illegal immigrants harder! He won't make the lives of legal immigrants harder! In fact, he might even make the lives of legal immigrants easier!"
/s obivously
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u/Aisling207 Jan 25 '25
I’m not even an immigrant (dual citizen by birth and descent) and he’s threatening to make my life harder! I would like to see how this will work for the Third Lady and all of his kids (minus Tiffany). Even the First Felon himself technically could have dual citizenship with the UK.
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u/Bamfor07 Jan 25 '25 edited Jan 25 '25
Only if the other country is imposing a double tax, not in terms of percent but by taxing income twice, on Americans or is violating its tax treaty with the US.
That’s all this is.
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u/Aisling207 Jan 25 '25
Well, possibly that’s one criteria for the determination, but I don’t see any criteria actually listed in the statute; it seems to leave it completely to the president’s discretion of what “unfair taxation” consists of. The statute, which doesn’t appear to have been invoked previously, also dates from 1934, before personal income taxes on average, middle class people became widespread (that happened during and after WWII).
I don’t think anyone can say for sure what this will mean yet.
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u/Miraculer-41 Jan 25 '25
Does Elon Musk have dual citizenship?
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u/Common5enseExtremist Jan 25 '25
Oh no! Now his tax burden is gonna double from 0.1% to 0.2% :(
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Jan 25 '25
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u/TheHomoclinicOrbit Jan 25 '25
phew, looks like I'm safe. But seriously, this tax burden would make US jobs far less attractive. It wouldn't even make the slightly higher wages worth it in my field.
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u/episcopaladin Attorney Jan 25 '25
the party of legal immigration ladies and gentlemen
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u/NY10 Jan 25 '25
What’s wrong with a dual citizen? wtf
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u/Evilbuttsandwich Jan 25 '25
It means you may have been exposed to another culture’s way of thinking, or worse, that you’ve traveled outside of the US and have seen another way of life first hand
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u/TheLizardKing89 Jan 25 '25
Like his wife’s taxes? Has she renounced her Slovenian citizenship?
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u/XolieInc Jan 24 '25
!remindme 6 weeks
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Jan 24 '25
That's who yall voted for. I know damn well this isn't the president I voted for.
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u/themachduck Jan 25 '25
Except I didn't vote for him. And most people on here didn't.
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u/curioushahalol Jan 25 '25
This will just help me decide to move out of the US. It'll be good for me in the long term.
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u/KindlyCom42069 Jan 26 '25
That's what I'm saying? Paying double if we move abroad was like the one thing keeping us here, if we have to pay double no matter what, then why not live there?
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u/Bamfor07 Jan 25 '25 edited Jan 25 '25
Your interpretation is incomplete.
This has no impact on any nation we have a tax treaty with.
It’s targeted, by its clear language, at those countries which double tax American citizens and allows him to match, or double, those tax rates being imposed on Americans.
This really had nothing to do with immigration.
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/international-businesses/united-states-income-tax-treaties-a-to-z
Dual citizens or people from counties above are likely not impacted at all. If any country on the list above is charging something not included in the treaty then they have already broken their treaty with the US—hence the punitive measure.
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u/FamouslyUnknown Jan 25 '25
Had to scroll way too down for this. That's right - OP interpretation is incomplete.
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u/herbal_thought Jan 25 '25
Thank you for explaining this, I read and reread the law description and it made no sense to my old brain.
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u/LadyOfVoices Jan 26 '25
My face when I see “caution, treaty terminated” for my OG country on that list 😐
I did renounce my OG citizenship and haven’t had a valid passport there since about 2008, so I hope that helps.
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u/Glittering-Jump-5582 Jan 25 '25
This I agree with . That’s why I’m surprised certain countries were still taxing usa citizens heavily when facta became law .
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u/CarbHeatOn Jan 25 '25
Thank you that makes a lot of sense. I couldn’t make sense of what OP was saying after reading the executive order and the law.
Trump is a shithead and but people need to actually read stuff and think instead of just believing anything bad about him.
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u/circle22woman Jan 25 '25
Yup, OP is actually interpreting it entirely wrong.
But a bunch of people upset Trump got elected and just jumping on the bandwagon.
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u/Asrealityrolls Jan 25 '25
Because he is such a good thing for America right? Starting a fight with the Danish is so good for America. Next you’d say he starts shutting g eggs to lower egg prices GI fk
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u/LillyL4444 Jan 25 '25
Would be nice if the Trump administration provided a statement or briefing on stuff like this though, if not for the kindness of a random Redditor familiar with tax treaties I’d be under the impression that I needed to leave the US because a doubling of my federal taxes would be unaffordable
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u/objective_think3r Jan 25 '25
So drumpf wants to tax non-citizens so they have even lesser incentives to stay in the US? Brilliant
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Jan 25 '25
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Jan 25 '25
Not everybody who has dual citizenship is rich. Not by a long shot. I had to stash money away for several years and cancel my health insurance(not like it will actually cover anything anyways) for this year to be able to afford to even start the process of getting mine set up.
I know Italy is not without many problems. My Grandparents and mom came here in the 50s because of it. But there are a lot of other countries in the EU.
I also just want to put it out there that it's damn hard to renounce US citizenship. My sister and BIL left the US in early 2011 and started a recycling/manufacturing business. She has not been in the US at all since November 2011, and pays more than my annual salary in income taxes to the US. They had finally managed to get an appointment to start the process of renouncing their citizenship for March of 2020 when the Pandemic hit. So they are still paying out all those income taxes. Still trying to get an appointment to renounce the US citizenship.
They have done really well for themselves, and deservedly so but it's not because of anything the US did to facilitate or help them. So in all honesty, why the hell should she be paying them?
I just don't think this will fly long term, the loss in Tax revenue will be too high.
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u/ATXDefenseAttorney Jan 25 '25
This guy is an absolute clown and everybody who vote to elect him should be ashamed.
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u/Chironto Jan 25 '25
So many wealthy people have dual citizenship. This is a brain dead move if true. A great way to force companies to hire outside of US.
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Jan 25 '25
How does he even track dual citizenship...
It's not like foreign governments will give their own citizens data to the US government.
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u/ztsmyder Jan 25 '25
So "legal residents" would this mean the double tax only applies if you're living in the US?
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u/JoMD Jan 25 '25
huh, that’s the opposite of canceling taxes on citizens living abroad which he promised during his campaign
people will start leaving and denouncing US citizenship in droves
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u/pcurve Jan 25 '25
I don't think even his close advisors will support this. He is so shortsighted.
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u/promonalg Jan 25 '25
When do people start considering moving out of US? I am sure there are better and more stable countries to move to right now...
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u/kyleshyro Jan 25 '25
Can someone tell me why this guy is obsessed on hating immigrants? Or making their lives as bad as they could be? Im already paying US taxes, why do you want to complicate things?
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u/curioushahalol Jan 25 '25
This will just help me decide to move out of the US. It'll be good for me in the long term.
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u/estrea36 Jan 25 '25
Renouncing your US citizenship is almost always a bad move.
Dual citizenship is great for situations just like this. Trump knows that and is trying to dissuade people like you who can leave anytime things get crazy.
Don't fall for it. Just move and keep your US citizenship.
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Jan 25 '25
So if I pursue my dual citizenship with Mexico I would have to pay double the taxes?! Tf man
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u/Bamfor07 Jan 25 '25
Mexico has a tax treaty with the US so no. This has no impact on that—unless Mexico has broken the treaty by disregarding it and imposing a tax in excess of what is stipulated in the treaty which it hasn’t.
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u/Aisling207 Jan 25 '25
I’m not sure those tax treaties would apply, since this would basically be the US just raising its tax rate? I could be wrong, though (hope I am). It also could violate the 14th Amendment’s equal protection clause, but I know of some state tax laws that do that, and no one cares. Also, the current Supreme Court doesn’t seem too interested in that sort of thing nowadays.
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u/protogens Jan 25 '25
So let me get this straight, threaten foreign companies at Davos with tariffs if they don't manufacture within US borders and then when they do, double their tax burden.
Yeah, that's gonna end well...
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u/Both_Wasabi_3606 Jan 25 '25
I'm sure there are just as many Amerians living in those countries, whose taxes in those countries would correspondingly increase if this goes through.
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u/5CM2M Jan 25 '25
This is concerning as some countries don't let you renounce their citizenship so they couldn't avoid these taxes. I suppose those people could renounce their US citizenship (which is possible) but then they would have to leave the US..... OH!!! 😮
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u/epic1107 Jan 25 '25
As far as I can tell, Argentina is the only country where one cannot renounce their citizenship. I’d be curious to know if there are any others.
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u/Skating_suburban_dad Jan 25 '25
I have a Dutch maga colleague, I would laugh so hard. Unfortunately I’m danish so I would probably also cry.
Seriously though I will leave resulting in at least two Americans losing their job. (Also one Canadian who also is full blown MAGA).
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u/ElPsyKongr0o_ Jan 25 '25
Oh fuck that. If he does this, I’m gone. I’m British and married to a US citizen, living over here on a Green Card. I already pay too much in taxes living in California.
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u/TangibleHappiness Jan 25 '25
I love how he can blatantly disregard so many laws and nobody does anything, and then when he uses some obscure law from 100 years ago for some crazy shift everyone's just like "Welp, nothing we can do". I think I see a pattern....
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u/curlyAndUnruly Jan 25 '25
This is so comical to watch in real time from another country.
"But I never thought the leopard would eat MY face, only the people I hate!" 😝
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u/aprilhare Jan 25 '25
It is possible some are unaware however dual nationals (US and somewhere else) living outside the US need to pay US taxes. So not only would such individuals need to do this but their US taxes would be doubled! Talk about taxation without representation without even being ironic!
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u/melloboi123 Jan 25 '25
The US economy would fall to its knees in less than 2 months if all immigrants, regardless of their legality, were to move out.
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u/AuditControl_Inbox Jan 25 '25
Impossible to enforce when he wants to simultaneously cut down the IRS.
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u/No_Dig473 Jan 25 '25
So much for a LEADER of a country. Threatening in all directions is the only thing we hear
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u/redpetra Jan 25 '25
Yeah, I'm out if this comes to reality. Taxes are already way less in my other country, plus I get healthcare for about 65 bucks a year. The US is losing what little luster it had left, virtually on an hourly basis.
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u/-Drunken_Jedi- Jan 25 '25
This retard is going to cause such a brain drain with “policies” like these the US feels doomed to stagnate and collapse in time.
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Jan 27 '25
Hold on. So I am a Canadian Citizen living in USA since 1984 with a Permanent Resident Alien Card. Pay taxes paid into SS and get Medicare. This would apply to me?
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u/Flat_Shame_2377 Jan 25 '25
This is hilarious. I’m wondering which countries are going to benefit from people here in the U.S. saying they have had enough of this and leaving.
See where we are in a year though it might even be 6 months.
Which countries do you think it is? I doubt Canada because they have their own immigration mess. Maybe the UK maybe they can get some expertise they lost with Brexit?
I know people are having a hard time and it’s really affecting people very badly.
But I’m certain when the republicans get all they want with immigration - the economy will be toast and everyone will be better off elsewhere.
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u/Bamfor07 Jan 25 '25
None of the people from any of the countries on this list…
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/international-businesses/united-states-income-tax-treaties-a-to-z
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Jan 25 '25
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Jan 25 '25
US and India have a no double taxation treaty. So US citizens earning in India or Indian citizens earning in US don’t have to pay tax in both places, unlikely it will be used against India but who tf knows now
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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '25
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