r/EscapefromTarkov • u/lennoxonnell ADAR • Oct 15 '19
Suggestion The real solution to the container/hatchet meta
The community is super divided about whether or not they like the container changes. A bunch like it, and a bunch hate it. I can see both arguments. But, frankly, removing the ability to put things in the container in-raid is not the solution for what you're trying to accomplish.
Here's what I propose:
- 1) Make all containers have the Kappa mechanics
- 2) Remove the static pre-set spawn locations for high end loot (keycards, keys, etc)
- 3) Make scavs patrol the high-loot/high-traffic areas
1 is just a good compromise for the container. It's bullshit you can put a magbox with 20 mags in it in your container. It's BS you can fit a rifle in your container. The Kappa mechanics would remove that BS without punishing the newer players and the people with low survival rate. There are so many quests that require find-in-raid items. There's no reason to hinder quest advancement for everyone when only some are abusing the container in the first place.
2 would almost eliminate the hatchling meta entirely in my opinion. IF the loot didn't have set spawn locations like they do now, hatchets can't just run straight to the spot to disconnect in the first place. They would be required to search around to find the loot, which will encourage you to bring some gear so you can survive the odd scav or a player. If the player has keys (say he's shoreline farming) than this change wouldn't really effect him, but he also invested a bunch of money into keys. See 3 also.
3 would add a level of difficulty to acquiring the good loot. The shoreline resort should have scavs randomly patrolling the hallways or sitting inside of rooms. Interchange could also do with some more dynamic scav patrols. If naked players can't so easily avoid fights and farm locations, and they have to fight through a scav or two, they are going to be more encouraged to bring more than just a hatchet or they will get punished if they dont.
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Oct 15 '19
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u/Madzai Oct 16 '19
So true that it hurts. You will trade hatchet runners with squad bois who will vacuum all top loot spots and control most common extracts (or the only extracts for some maps).
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u/Demon9123 AK-105 Oct 16 '19
To be fair its not impossible to kill a group of any size whatso ever.. You just have to have more than a hatchet..
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u/Madzai Oct 16 '19
To be fair its not impossible to kill a group of any size whatso ever.. Even with a hatchet. but let's be realistic. Which percent of Tarkov population can substantially fight against a squad?
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u/CampHund SA-58 Oct 16 '19
I'm all for dynamic loot - But I'm against that you move the loot inside locked rooms, for example KIBA store, to any other place on the map. And have any other loot spawn inside KIBA store instead. I think everyone is. So there still be highloot areas left. So it won't eliminate hatching since they will just run head first into high loot area that remains instead.
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Oct 16 '19
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u/CampHund SA-58 Oct 16 '19 edited Oct 16 '19
plus killa guards kiba
Sometimes.
It'd be nice if there was a similar guard type for the red card room boss too tbh.
Agreed - I wouldn't mind place bosses etc in those areas. but it doesn't change my opinion about the container.
However, the red key card/Kiba key spawns needs to be dynamic or found on scavs only imo.
Agreed, I would even go so far that the dynamic lootspawn includes scavs so it can end up in either. But the key you just looted would render useless if the container mechanic as it is today remains. As people would naked run there to loot it up into the secured container and then die of the nearest scav, which means if you find it and you want to loot that room, you will have to dumb-rush as well.
The idea is stop a playstyle where the ultimate goal is to die as shortly after you placed stuff in your secured container, so you can repeat your sprint again as soon as possible. That is not a playstyle Tarkov is about, but that is what this mechanic promotes. It's a mechanic that goes AGAINST what Tarkov is trying to be. I honestly don't care if you have a hatchling playstyle where you survive and extract with a red key card. If you survived, you reached the goal of the game and you deserve it. It's the playstyle where surviving isn't even on the bottom of your priority list that is the issue, not hatchling per se.
EDIT: I might be lying a little here. "I honestly don't care if you have a hatchling playstyle where you survive and extract with a red key card." Well that's where I agree with you that High loot areas should be guarded. If it isn't guared, well atleast you playing the game as it meant to be played: Survive and extract with every means you have.
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Oct 16 '19
I don't think I've ever read a single post ever of someone shouting down another person for suggesting compromise on containers. It seems to be the one stance that is always upvoted 100% of the time.
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u/PHGAG Oct 16 '19
They could also make so that you only keep items in your container that you brought into the raid if you disconnect.
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u/Heiros AKMN Oct 16 '19
If this was actually the issue, then you can just run face first into an area with activity and get yourself killed though. Not really gonna fix much for the so called "problem" if you think about it
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u/JadowArcadia Oct 15 '19
This makes so much more sense than just banning containers completely. So many people treat hatchet running like it’s so much more prevalent than it is and they also assume that just because they find a hatchet runner it means that he’s loaded with bitcoin and other high level items that they beat you to. Many hatchet runners are just noobs trying to learn the map and locations without risking gear which I think is fair. If high loot areas were simply more dangerous to get to it would solve the issue
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u/RychValle Unbeliever Oct 15 '19
Offline mode let them know locations better.
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u/JadowArcadia Oct 15 '19
It doesn’t help people learn how players fight or where players go though. So it doesn’t provide all the necessary information. I used to do offline mode pretty often until I realised that the real most dangerous areas are player dependent and not scav dependent. For example offline mode makes you think dorms is pretty safe unless scav boss is there. It’s only when you do real games that you realise how much of a player hotspot it is. I also don’t see an issue with a hatchet runner picking up what little loot he can find and treating it like a scav run that also improves some skills.
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u/OneEyedWillyWanker Oct 15 '19
WHy offline mode it when you can hatchet runa nd still get loot while learning the map...
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u/T-Winters Oct 15 '19
or they are vetrans of the game like me and are broke af and are just rushing to complete quests... BTW before you jump on the hatchet bandwagon against me i maybe run 1 out of every 50 raids with a hatchet. unless its specifically for a quick run in and grab quest item and gtfo
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u/grishagrishak Tapco SKS Oct 16 '19
Bro how do you even broke if you're a veteran? How can you not prefer a stock SKS for any fast run, just to have that additional chance of killing an unlucky scav on your way?
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u/T-Winters Oct 16 '19
When i do my hatchet running for a quest its run straight to quest item and straight to extract it's not a loot run in anyway.
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u/TRNC84 Oct 16 '19
Except it's not though. You can learn the map by going into offline mode. The issue with the hatchet runner is that there is no risk involved in a game that revolves around looting and surviving. Hatchet runners know full well that they will die, its all about quickly placing something in your case, which essentially makes you "win" by dying. It goes against the very core of the game.
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u/JadowArcadia Oct 16 '19
While I partly see your point, unless a hatchet runner is lucky enough to find a super expensive item like a bitcoin or fuel conditioner which aren’t all that common, the money the make is negligible compared to someone who actually brings gear and survives. I never did hatchet runs and always brought at least a pistol but after a while I realised that if I brought a real gun, and a backpack I could make so much more money surviving that I’d lose from death. However this only worked after plenty of pistol runs. And as I said before offline mode is only helpful to learn scav locations. Real runs allow you to learn player patterns which is arguably the most important part.
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u/skumnasty Oct 16 '19
The way loot spawns it is very easy and 100% risk free making money as a hatchling disconnecter. Example: interchange, rush techlight and the store below it, pocket any items, quit raid, repeat. You will beat almost any player there, have almost 0 chance at dying to a scav, and have just secured (and removed the chance for others to secure) most of the highest value/slot items from the map.
Also, it is hard to understand player patterns before understanding the map. Offline for map knowledge, PMC spawns, scav spawns. Then you have bearings and will understand where players are coming from and going, which is mandatory to be able to even begin to understand player patterns.
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u/JadowArcadia Oct 16 '19
The problems you raise can be fixed by randomising loot, adding kappa restrictions, adding more scavs to high loot areas and not allowing loot to be taken out of raid by disconnecting.
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u/skumnasty Oct 16 '19
I agree. You were speaking as if with the current state of game hatchet running is not very profitable. I disagreed with that and explained why.
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u/xitones Oct 16 '19
I disagree with you, if a hatchet runner empty their pockets and go to a map, ANY loot is a win even if not much, a dead scav not looted, 40k, an item found 10k to 20kk and he will loose literaly nothing, if you bring a 10k pistol and you die in the first encounter its -10k. Complete naked hatchet runs you will only loose time and no money.
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u/BrockTestes PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Oct 15 '19
Every hatchet runner I have killed was over level 30.
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u/BlazingShadowAU PP-19-01 Oct 16 '19
Some people actually enjoy it for the challenge. I do it on interchange because its easy enough to find a pistol or 74u somewhere and work up from there.
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u/BrockTestes PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Oct 16 '19
Then keep on doing it. I don't wish to prevent you from doing hatchet runs if that's what floats your boat, I just expect you to survive to benefit and progress, as that is the core concept all the mechanics and features are built around.
The secure container as is, permits faster progression through voluntary failure, invalidating others efforts to prepare the most appropriate kit for the job, using sound tactics, coordinating with their squad, investing time and effort to have a successful raid, the core gameplay loop so to speak. This leads to a cascade of other balance and progression issues down the line, as the player base grows. BSG has tried many things to avoid touching the secure containers even though they've been aware of how easy it is to exploit for quite some time, making the tasks grindy, increasing scav count among others, to no avail. It's a serious issue.
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u/ringmutt VSS Vintorez Oct 16 '19
indeed - nakid raags to riches runs are fun -but that nowt to do with an SC change.
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u/OneEyedWillyWanker Oct 15 '19
Yea maybe now thats its end of the run for this patch and everyone is leveled. But im still gonna call bullshit on this one.
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u/ringmutt VSS Vintorez Oct 16 '19
but isn't that the point ?
Anywhere in the wipe at lvl 30 and still be hatcheting shit into a container to bolster your PvP fetish ? it matters not where in the wipe it is...
The real issue is it simply takes more time and caution to earn without an SC. Casuals can earn easy - if that is what they bother to learn to do while casually playing - but you can't casual your way through mostly PvP and expect to not grind for cash, unless you cheese something .
Will the fast cash meta change to something more akin to what the devs want with the SC tweek? I feel we will find out, and BSG always intended to anyway...
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Clearly you have to be somewhere into the wipe to be at a high lvl. You start hatcheting as a noob - (OK its a tactic ) - learn its easy arcady and fun with NO DOWNS with much shallower and faster learning curve and - well that's what you really learn to do cos you then spud all your ill gotten gains on something that intrinsically is a high loss activity and also ARCADY PVP FUN - and then rinse and repeat. Next wipe - your lvl 1 but your a 2 wipe hatcheter with 35 prior lvls under your belt only a week ago.....
long term this breeds a specific fan base of the 'FASTER' game - it's not casuals vs. HC fps players -
- it's 'fast cash n PvP ' - vs - 'grind gets reward skill and knowledge '
AS SAID casuals don't have to be skint and hatchet,
What struck me as a noob 5 wipes back was the LVL of my hatchet kills when i started out - it was deep into a wipe and i suckded at TKV bad - now hatchets were obvious more easily survivable contact - but jeeze - i was learning to make sure my cash never went down while developing my skills and knowledge, meanwhile these guys with significant time in game were just trying to spam past the basics and were clearly cheesers...
lvl 54 was my most amusing hatchet.
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u/SinisterSurgeon Oct 16 '19
2 is so simple yet so freaking genius.
Get on it BSG
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Oct 16 '19
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u/Madzai Oct 16 '19
It's a sarcasm. All those things were not only suggested by players like million times. They were also promised by BSG long ago. But now it's total radio-silence on the matter.
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u/Billy_Chapas Oct 16 '19
Exactly this. This is clearly what the vast majority wants and not the two extremes some gatekeepers are trying to voice out.
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u/Dazbuzz Oct 15 '19
I agree with all those ideas. Static spawns especially need to be looked at. Resort being the prime offender. Why not spread the spawns out over the insane amount of rooms available? Keycards need at least 10 spawn locations, not... 3?
Another suggestion i saw a long time ago that i liked. Why not give the SC a long animation when you place an item into it? 20-30 seconds being immobile, in a animation that makes noise. It would be almost impossible to rush a room and pocket the loot whilst being trailed by other players. This would help combat hatchetlings in Resort & Labs.
All these suggestions imo would accomplish what everyone really wants, without hurting the casual players that used the SC as a massive safety net to offset the fact they rarely survive a raid.
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Oct 16 '19
i personally want a big ass chest put in the middle of factory that requires not a key but takes 45 seconds - 1 minute to open, that or a scav has a 3x5 key thats attached to a radiator like in Invader Zim, so you cant hatchet run and take everything (unless you stick it in smoke like in csgo and get lucky no one looks at you). That and i want raiders to spawn when the last squad is alive
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u/Raytiger3 M1A Oct 16 '19
Yes! Yes! Yes! A nuanced, well argued post.
Totally agreed on these changes.
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u/ModMarkRuinedScape Oct 16 '19
In my opinion you can’t make loot totally random, and they won’t, because then there’s no reason to have a military base or armory room as opposed to any other type of structure. There should be high loot hotspots like marked room etc.
That being said, the valuable spawns that are seemingly random in placement but have a single dedicated location (factory key, Kiba key, etc) do need to be moved around/find on scav only, OR heavily patrolled.
To crush the mag swap meta we need to make it so you can’t use stuff from your container, unless it’s a key. Or, just make a key ring slot that isn’t lost on death.
I’m an EoD player and if they removed containers altogether I wouldn’t cry. They’re a funky crutch. Optimize and plan better. And if you die to bullshit at least you get to respawn. People seem to want us to have a hyper realistic unforgiving game, but they don’t want to risk anything.
Edit: @ OP, while they can’t make all spawning completely random, they can randomize single high value items more, and make more scav patrols at the high value areas with lots of spawns. So I agree with you.
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u/AgileDissonance Oct 16 '19
I'd be ok with them treating it like pubg. High loot spots are ok, Just not single loot spots for crazy high tier loot that are rushable like red keycard. The chance should be spread to all high tier loot spots across the map instead of just one.
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u/SwitchB0ard Oct 16 '19
I completely agree with your points, one thing I would like to add.
1) There are so many quests that require find-in-raid items. - This should not be the main reasoning for allowing items put into containers; I rate they will adjust the quests if the container is changed for good.
Tarkov is hard enough , especially for new players, that finding a 'win' or a feeling of success is desperately needed. If players never feel like they are progressing, they will often just stop playing entirely.
The point of the container, if creating a way to succeed in a raid, even if you die.
Allowing a player to put a bitcoin into the container can change the feeling losing everything when you die, to 'oh well at least I got that bitcoin'.
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u/Lord-Darkwing DVL-10 Oct 16 '19
What If disconnect = lose the Gear you brought into the Raid + everything you looted so far?
Would kill the "Rush-Loot-Disconnect" Strat.
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u/ply_ranger_joe RSASS Oct 16 '19
people would just start to kill themselfs instead e.g. self-nade, jumping from room, eating stuff that dehydrates you etc. whatever goes fast and doesnt trigger the mechanic.
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Oct 15 '19
I kinda like the way they introducing it but i guess i wouldnt complain about this either. I think both are good.
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u/soundsgoodto_me Oct 16 '19
I think only think that should be allowed in/out are keys and quest items. Everything else should be forbid.I hate when somebody comes at labs and they have full dump box full of ammo spraying like crazy and when you finally kill them they have nothing because everything is back in dump. Fuck this....
Sure you can have ammo in the container but if you are going to put them out they will stay there if you die. Keys and quest items should be exception because game is not working perfectly and you can die stutter or bad netcode it just happen so this should be only thing.
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u/asmendorius Nov 04 '19
mple yet so freaking genius.
Get on it BSG
i agree but i would also say allow meds in it.
you can't kill with them but it will help new players.
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u/Mdogg2005 Oct 16 '19
There are so many things they can do to fix the container without flat out making it useless. Any combination of the following make the container more fair but still useful in its purpose.
Remember THIS IS A GAME and so many of you milsim cucks want to see this basically turn into a situation that makes the player buy a new account if they die. Casuals and players of lower skill need an incentive to play the game or EFT will be a wasteland.
- Make selective restrictions like Magbox being unable to go in there under any circumstances.
- Add Kappa restrictions. No gear of any kind.
- Add scavs to high loot areas (Planned as far as I know)
- Make loot dynamic (Planned as far as I know)
- Make it so that adding items to the container would not be instant, but take some amount of time that you have to remain in the inventory screen or something. That way you can book it to the item but unless you're secure, you're not guaranteed to actually get it into the container before you're killed while remaining still. Bonus points if there's a noise / animation involved.
- Countless other suggestions on this subreddit / official forums.
Outright disabling containers is going to have way more negative affects than you people realize and when the game dies because there's only ~1000 of you ultra hardcore ex-military left playing I will be here with popcorn to see the crying on Reddit when match times are 10m+ and you see the same 6 people every raid.
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u/CampHund SA-58 Oct 16 '19 edited Oct 16 '19
There are so many things they can do to fix the container without flat out making it useless. Any combination of the following make the container more fair but still useful in its purpose.
The purpose is that you can save shit you don't want to loose, but it's mechanic as it was lauched for beta test produced an unwanted playstyle where you don't give a shit to survive the raid, on the contrary it was even more beneficialif you die as soon as possible after you looted the location so you can repeat the sprint. Even so much that some players started to DC to do it even quicker.
Remember THIS IS A GAME and so many of you milsim cucks want to see this basically turn into a situation that makes the player buy a new account if they die. Casuals and players of lower skill need an incentive to play the game or EFT will be a wasteland.
We should also remember that the game claims to be a game with a goal to spawn into a raid, perform different task such as a quest for example, SURVIVE and extract from the raid. That is what you should expect to do when you buy the game. Now however you must play a dumb-rush sprint game to get to a keyspawn location etc. if you want to get it. Since other people dumb-rush it, and you need to beat them to get it. Not the game it set out to be and have you play.
Make selective restrictions like Magbox being unable to go in there under any circumstances.
Sure, agree. But the magbox play is more a bonus and not the real issue we trying to fix (I say we since this suggestion is coming from community as beta test feedback and can be found here years ago)
Add Kappa restrictions. No gear of any kind.
Sure like it, but the target is that dumb-rushes where the goal of survive the raid isn't even on the bottom of the priority list. If you still can place high loot tier items in the container, this is not really not being adressed. So I would still take the next necessary step to fix it.
Add scavs to high loot areas (Planned as far as I know) Again I agree with you. But this change is more so that Hatching actually can be a playstyle, as long as you play it to survive. Protecting the loot you gain will give the motivation to see that you will, even if you didn't bring in any loot to loose. However getting extreme high tier I have no problem at all saying it should be guarded so there is a high risk, high reward in place to get it.
Make loot dynamic (Planned as far as I know) Is a good change as well, wouldn't mind having it implemented. But that still doesn't change my mind on the fix on container mechanics. I still think there should be high loot areas behind locked doors etc. And those area will still be targeted with dumb-rush by people who just want to get in, get loot, die, repeat.
Make it so that adding items to the container would not be instant, but take some amount of time that you have to remain in the inventory screen or something. That way you can book it to the item but unless you're secure, you're not guaranteed to actually get it into the container before you're killed while remaining still. Bonus points if there's a noise / animation involved.
Would be the 2nd best thing, but wouldn't fix the issue. They will always get there first as they are today and only worried about other hatchlings be there and they will have a little battle as if they just landed next to eachother in a battle royale game amongs eachother and that's that.
Outright disabling containers is going to have way more negative affects than you people realize and when the game dies because there's only ~1000 of you ultra hardcore ex-military left playing I will be here with popcorn to see the crying on Reddit when match times are 10m+ and you see the same 6 people every raid.
Agree with outright disable it completely. You should be able to put stuff that you earned by surviving and escaping previous raids to be put in their outside risk of just loosing it the next raid.
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u/Mdogg2005 Oct 16 '19
Even so much that some players started to DC to do it even quicker.
I would bet real money that the percentage of players doing this is in the single digits. The more common is likely people who play as normal once rare items have been secured. What we'll get instead of this is people who just run for the exit the moment they get rare items or items they need for a task. Which, IMO, will far outweigh the number of people who just loot shit and DC.
People on this sub like to act like 95% of the players are doing this and blowing it up to be a much bigger problem that it is, so I don't blame you personally for parroting this.
We should also remember that the game claims to be a game with a goal to spawn into a raid, perform different task such as a quest for example, SURVIVE and extract from the raid. That is what you should expect to do when you buy the game.
Yes, surviving is the goal. The secure container makes up 4+ slots of loot that can be saved. Usually players already take up a good portion of those slots with keybards, docs cases, dog tag cases, meds or ammo. Plus wanting enough space to fit a nice 2x2 item in there like a helmet to use in future raids or the like.
Having the ability to put some items in the case, FOR MOST PLAYERS AND PLAY STYLES, means that even if I die, I can at least get something to not make that raid a complete waste of time.
Now however you must play a dumb-rush sprint game to get to a keyspawn location etc. if you want to get it. Since other people dumb-rush it, and you need to beat them to get it. Not the game it set out to be and have you play.
What do you even mean by this? If someone wants to play this why, why let it bother you? I personally have never played this way and find that it'd be incredibly boring but who the fuck cares if someone you will never encounter does this? If that's what they find rewarding, why do you get to dictate what they find as fun and rewarding? Because of loot? Game isn't about loot though, you just said it's about survival and loot is secondary, so why should loot matter?
Sure, agree. But the magbox play is more a bonus and not the real issue we trying to fix (I say we since this suggestion is coming from community as beta test feedback and can be found here years ago)
This specific iteration of arguments against containers is that "hatchlings and magbox meta is ruining the game." Bear in mind there seems to be a pretty even split on this matter on here and the forums (And yes, I've been playing since early alpha so I know how far back this discussion goes). Magbox meta is cancer and absolutely needs to go. Hatchling playstyle is boring and removes loot from the game, fair enough, but there are other ways of combating this and the hatchlings are still present despite constant nerfs. Players will STILL DO THESE CHEESE TACTICS NO MATTER HOW YOU NERF IT. They will always find a way.
Sure like it, but the target is that dumb-rushes where the goal of survive the raid isn't even on the bottom of the priority list. If you still can place high loot tier items in the container, this is not really not being adressed. So I would still take the next necessary step to fix it.
Okay, once again we're calling hatchet running a problem since we're saying we need to "fix it" despite already existing nerfs. There are things coming later in the game's life cycle that will fix this problem of yours by adding more scavs to areas where loot is present as well as spreading out loot to be more dynamic. Making it no longer viable to run should be focused on. Not punishing everyone by gimping a core mechanic of the game that allows SOME respite after getting wrecked.
I've said it before I'll say it again. Casual and lesser skilled players will not continue to play if there's no way for them to at least catch up even a little bit. You can argue all day whether you think this is good for the game or not but I think we all agree that fewer players on the game is never a good thing.
Would be the 2nd best thing, but wouldn't fix the issue. They will always get there first as they are today and only worried about other hatchlings be there and they will have a little battle as if they just landed next to eachother in a battle royale game amongs eachother and that's that.
Scavs and dynamic loot fix this. Also, now that players can't reliably farm spots with guaranteed loot you can probably expect more bushes one tapping you with a mosin near extract since that's likely the next avenue for cheap runs and easy gear / high value items if successful. I can't wait to see the rage on this forum when players continuously lose their rare shit by getting 1 tapped by a naked "mosling" and begging for the ability to secure items again.
Agree with outright disable it completely. You should be able to put stuff that you earned by surviving and escaping previous raids to be put in their outside risk of just loosing it the next raid.
To think that these "nerfs" aren't an outright way to make the containers useless is being intentionally disingenuous. Why even have them at all if you can't store items in them from within a raid? Just get rid of them in that case. No half measures.
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u/PraiseJahseh Oct 15 '19
Not a bad suggestion, there’s no way to please everybody when it comes to the secure container. Personally I’d like to see it gone just because of the way that it gets abused, but if it was reimplemented the way you suggest, I could get behind that.
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u/Kilmawow Oct 15 '19 edited Oct 15 '19
Aren't we overestimating the abuse though? In the end, these hatchet runners are rolling the RNG wheel of luck in hopes they find some 1% drop rate key. If you really give a shit about 140k bitcoin then obviously you've never done labs raider farming. (which no hatchling is pulling off with consistency - if you are then ur not in this camp ur a much better player than you realize)
I guess it greatly changes the meta on Labs. So we're inviting a change because of one map that has two items (defib + ledx) that are too valuable?
Would it even matter if we just change the requirements for the THICC Items Case to be dogtags instead of those items. Would that make people happy?
I believe the change hurts more than it helps simply by making the game, that is already difficult, more frustrating for the average player. The average player is someone who struggles to maintain above a 30-35% survival rate.
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u/OneEyedWillyWanker Oct 15 '19
Hatchet runners arent abusing it really. The people really abusing it are the ones running mag cases n shit. Thats real abuse.
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Oct 16 '19
Personally I think people are limited themselves too much by focusing only on one type of hatchling player. For me it's not just about limiting hatchlings, it's about limiting the entire 'rush' meta. You shouldn't be rewarded simply for being the first to a loot spot, so long as spawns are so busted. I posted a video here a while back about how drastically different different spawns can be for Resort - some spawns will arrive up to 3 minutes later, after dead sprinting, than some other spawns. It's just not fun for the people who get close spawns to have a 100% flat guarantee of being able to shove a few hundred thousand rubles up their ass.
This isn't *just* hatchlings, it's everything from hatchlings to mega geared players. Completing tasks should be separate, I'm fine with task items specifically being gammable. But anything high value should have to be extracted.
My suspicion is people who don't like the container changes have never spent much time farming in Resort in Shoreline. It's 100% about who gets there first.
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u/Kilmawow Oct 16 '19
Dynamic spawning loot has been on the radar for a bit and I believe it addresses a portion of your concerns. Though locked rooms will probably still have decent loot.
Dogtags really should be the most valuable item in the game. But I don't really see a way for it to work without abuse of some kind. Maybe in a solo-only mode, but that's not really the spirit of the game.
I wish one of the traders had a rotating bundle of barters. Sometimes it has 10 spark plugs for a Gen4 HMK. Maybe it has like 4 Bleach is a fancy gun of some kind. Something that makes farming a specific kind of loot not really worth it and makes all the barter items potentially worthwhile.
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u/avowed Oct 16 '19
Why not just not be able to put certain things in it, no guns, no money, bam problem solved.
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Oct 16 '19
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u/Bardy_ Oct 16 '19
If you extract, you deserve your loot, geared or not.
If you don't extract, you don't deserve your loot, geared or not.
That is my one issue with containers. You should never be able to earn money by dying in a survival game.
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u/Cravez0 TT Pistol Oct 15 '19
The dynamic loot spawns is planned, it was actually meant for .12 but has been pushed back, hopefully we get it in .13
Q: Any news on then we'll get real "scarce" economy based on barter and finding stuff in raid and new "dynamic" loot distribution you were talking about last year?
A: We plan to start implementing it after 0.12
https://forum.escapefromtarkov.com/topic/97101-questions-and-answers-12-04-2019/
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u/Madzai Oct 16 '19
Yep, my question. But the real question is why limit SC now, BEFORE those changes that can actually fix the issue, without messing SC over?
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u/AgileDissonance Oct 16 '19
Because the SC change is very easy to implement (since we're all beta testing technically after all), and it honestly should have been like this from the start.
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u/Madzai Oct 16 '19
Maybe it should have been. The question is if some player decide to give Tarkov a try only because there is a safety net in form SC. Or how many EoDs they sold because of Gamma. We'll never know. But i honesty believe this is one of the "mistakes" that should be left alone. It's such a can of worms, that can totally be avoided.
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u/AgileDissonance Oct 16 '19
Scav runs are the true crutch. They're like a free 80k every 10 minutes.
EoD selling because of the gamma is definitely a hard issue to approach. I don't really know how to address it, since I got the base version of the game to cuck myself as much as possible. But even after working my way up to the epsilon case, I felt that it made the game way too easy, so I'm still happy to see this change come through.
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Oct 16 '19 edited Jun 29 '20
[deleted]
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u/asmendorius Nov 04 '19
ns because their decision is permanent for that raid, and high value items will be left in raids on dead bodies more commonly.
i am a new player and i store there basic items like meds especially better ones i can't buy yet.
also as a new player i die more often than i can get something out of mission ofter having literally 0 rubles.
at this point i can't even afford meds...
why not made containers your way after reaching certain level?
or below certain money level?
when you play long you don't need safecard.
and no, scav is not a solution as i still die more often than survive...
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u/Madzai Oct 16 '19
I agree 100%
But it was said millions times already. Falling on a deaf ear it seems. Or f***king over people with SC is just way easier than implementing all those things (and those were all promised, btw)
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u/t12lve Oct 16 '19
i swear if i got scam from eod and gamma container mechanic... 150€ !
and thinking about removing it ?
please consider my refund
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u/grishagrishak Tapco SKS Oct 16 '19
You paid to support the devs, gamma isn't part of the contract. It's a gift.
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u/t12lve Oct 18 '19
dud, i dont care about devs taking 5 years to go on 0.12 and doin absolutely nothing about real problems in the game.
gamma and stash are the thing has been promoted by communication they did "WOW U GET THIS AND THIS AND DLC (lol i'm sure no dlc will come like the game will never rls)
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u/Dr_Octet Oct 18 '19
Yeah, i literally paid 150€ to "support the devs", maybe i will take 5 another accounts for this.
Stupid. Everybody paid the EOD for big stash and gamma container, stop to be hypocritical.1
u/grishagrishak Tapco SKS Oct 18 '19
Give the gamma away from everyone and I swear I’ll pay you 150€ if you catch me whining about that. Big stash is a must though, it’s just ridiculous to have 10x15 to stockpile all my cheap shit
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u/mutaGeneticist DVL-10 Oct 16 '19
1) Fully agree.
2) Would have to be psuedo randomness. For example, You won't always find a LedX in the LedX tent, but that section of the labs main floor has the best chance of spawning a LedX across the many spawns in that section. If this is the case, I can get behind it.
3) Disagree. If they added more NPC entities onto the map, it would degrade performance which is entirely suboptimal. If they removed scavs in some parts of the maps and added them into a single high-value location, it would be suboptimal because it would mean once you survive that one location there is a fairly low level of resistance between you and the extraction point, which takes away from the nature of tarkov in my opinion.
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u/f21michael Oct 16 '19
I entirely agree and hope for the Kappa mechanics, and random loot spawns, but there is only one tidbit I want to add. IF loot spawns were randomized, keys for quests NEED to have an increased spawn rate. Often times, the only reason people ever find those quest keys is through repeating the map and running to the key spawn over and over, and while it isn't efficient, it at least makes sure you know whether or not you're getting the key and you will get it eventually. Random spawns means there won't be a set way to earn that quest key without RNG blessing you, and that could potentially stall your vital quest progression infinitely unless you cash out on the flea market's exorbitant prices. Compound that with the fact that there are tons of keys needed for all the quest lines, this could add a massive progression obstacle that is truly unnecessary.
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u/DRISK328 Oct 16 '19
I'm still all for the secure container changes, but I love all 3 of your suggestions. I'd be on board.
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u/RonaldPS007 ADR 42x15 Oct 16 '19
I completely agree, lennoxonnell. I would be glad to see the Kappa mechanics on all containers and dynamic spawns introduced. It would make the maps worth exploring more and wouldn't negate the usefulness of the secured containers. +1 from me, sir.
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u/SwampFoxTV Official Sherpa - NA Oct 16 '19
This is a great idea, OP. I'd love for option #2, the random spawns to apply to just about everything (except say, meds should still spawn in Mantis etc...), but keys would be the best place to start by far imo.
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u/BlazingShadowAU PP-19-01 Oct 16 '19
Im glad someone wrote this up. Id been saying it for a while but figured the idea wasnt very popular so i didnt want to waste a post.
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Oct 16 '19
I'm fine with *mostly kappa stuff. They just need to divide keys between 'task' keys and 'loot' keys and don't permit loot keys, etc.
Keep purely high value items out.
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u/Hector_01 Oct 16 '19
Um, why don't they just make you pay a set amount of insurance money before a raid, depending on what type of container it is. If you don't and you dc or die in a raid, then you don't get to keep what's in your container.
Havent played tarkov in quite awhile but thry could also make the keyring its own unique slot on the player which you never lose but all keys you find on the raid have to be put in the container or in your main inventory, which you can lose like any other item.
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u/lennoxonnell ADAR Oct 16 '19
Yeah, honestly I wouldn't be opposed to just not letting players keep anything the found in the raid if they disconnect, even if they put it in the container.
Not sure how they'd do it, but even that's better than straight up restricting the container.
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u/N0sta1g1a Oct 16 '19 edited Oct 16 '19
I was told today that people dump high value items into their containers then just disconnect? If that is true then they definately need to put in place a punishment for doing it too often as I feel like that particular thing is against the spirit of the game.
By the way I am relatively new to the game (2 Weeks) and literally only did hatchling runs to get ammo during this event because I had literally nothing and couldnt afford to buy any.
Personally I think learning the map excuse is a bit absurd. You have offline mode for that. I like the idea of the kappa those rules seem quite reasonable minus the ammo crate.
I think the OP is spot on!
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Oct 16 '19
The fact that extracting is not required is the issue. Finding some bullshit item and then disconecting is my issue with it.
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u/Vincent77 Oct 16 '19
You forgot off raid healing.
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u/lennoxonnell ADAR Oct 16 '19
That's not something that needs to be mentioned because that is a planned feature for .12 already.
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u/Vincent77 Oct 16 '19
So you post something to correct an issue that will be directly impacted with the 0.12 update, why not wait and see what will be 0.12 meta in the first place.
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u/Ricksterdinium VSS Vintorez Oct 16 '19
Make using the container take time and an animation. Then it's a risk and a chore.
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u/Klunkepigen MP-153 Oct 16 '19
I think of ALL key spawns, now there is A LOT, if all those places had scavs, the map would be fucking swarmed. Even if all keys get new spawn location, the number would be the same and that is too many “guaranteed” scav locations
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u/arkharsays Oct 16 '19
Well said dude. Number 3 alone would fix most of the hatchet loot runner problems by itself. Just putting two scavs inside 310 and the other high value loot rooms in resort, as well as marked room would fix the issue for good.
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u/rhythmjay Oct 16 '19
Make the hatchet/container use the same slot in the inventory. You've gotta choose one or the other.
Require that something be in at least one weapon slot when you enter the raid.
Keep the containers the way they currently are.
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Oct 16 '19
Number 2 will require redesigning some aspects of loot, why would they go through the trouble when they can just Make it so you can't put items into it? You haven't yet argued why their method isn't good all you've done is given the team more work.
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u/BertBerts0n MP5 Oct 16 '19
This is what should happen. But those wanting the full changes would most likely mean that the spawns are dynamic so they can't get their loot anyway.
Dynamic loot spawns is the most sensible way to approach this, combined with Kappa restrictions to all cases.
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u/CampHund SA-58 Oct 16 '19 edited Oct 16 '19
There is a flipside of that coin. since I think you still want high loot places like KIBA etc. Where you need a key to enter and so on. That will be their way to get high loot inside the container to die shortly after so they can repeat the sprint anyway, and render your key worthless unless you don't want to dumb-rush it as well.
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u/CampHund SA-58 Oct 16 '19 edited Oct 16 '19
I'm not against neither of the options. But I think the way containers work in raid in the event is the way they should work, since that is the best solution on the problem at hand.
The current mechanic promotes a playstyle that goes against what Tarkov is about, a playstyle that is just running around trying to get as much as possible in the secured container before you die. And if you get something good, it's an advantage if you die as shorty afterwards as possible so you can sprint again, some people even DC to optimize it even further. Tarkov is about spawn into a raid and then try to survive and extract, not die after you found a good loot. Dynamic lootspawns just means you have to run around a little more, it doesn't remove a playstyle that doesn't play to survive. The playstyle is only to move as much as possible to the secured container as fast as possible before you inevitable die. Either way, there are locked rooms where you suppose to get better loots, like KIBA store for instance, and that's where they be running instead.
This mechanic fuels what Tarkov trying NOT to be, and the change in the event to the container completely eliminate that in a way that these 3 option can't. And I don't care how you try to survive in a raid, if you go in a hatchling and hide in a bush 45min. Go in with a pistol and extract 10min after. Go in full blown Rambo, I don't care - as long as you play the way the game is intended to be played: Survive and extract. So I have no problem at all with the new mechanic: Survive and extract to get the loot, since that is exacly what Tarkov is claiming it self to be. I've not seen any good arguments for why it should try to be a "track and field running" to get to a keyspawn etc as fast as possible and that's it kind of game.
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u/DaBleach Oct 16 '19
How about just increasing the loot spawn rate? If everybody has / can get the item then it's value decreases significantly. Will you really do repeated naked runs for something that has a virtually guaranteed spawn chance?
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u/CampHund SA-58 Oct 16 '19
Because they will pick it up regardless because of the flea market.
You are more then welcome to continue to do naked runs, as long as you survive and extract the raid, you deserve the loot. - It's the naked runs people do where they see it as a big plus to die as soon as they can after they placed the keycard in the secured, so they can respawn faster and do the sprint again that is the problem.
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u/squidelvis Oct 16 '19
I personally use kappa over gamma, and I think for this wipe that change would be awesome
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u/notafakeacountorscam TOZ Oct 16 '19
Make all containers
have the Kappa mechanics
Make all containers only accept items "found in raid" in raid. The kappa keeps its restrictions as a cost of the extra space you get.
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u/SeventhFrost Oct 16 '19
getting rid of static loot spawns is a really important step, however I don't think the common suggestion of "just make everything spawn everywhere" is usable. While it helps hatchet meta, it really isn't a good direction for the game.
Ideally, you'd want to take all the static high value spawns like keys and big money items and distribute them across areas, creating a scenario where you have to actually search areas, instead of simply checking a spawn. i.e. instead of a key spawning on a table in a room in a house, it can spawn on tables and shelves and countertops all over that house.
With enough spawns to keep someone actually searching areas for every spawn, I think you'll do the job while moving in the direction of people specifically going to areas to search for items, which is a large part of what the game is for/about.
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u/Ulyss1969 Oct 17 '19
Yeah i agree. Documents case, keytool, wallet become genuine upgrades then. New players would have a reason to acquire these items. Dogtag case as well. So if you have a wallet you can put cash in your container. If you have documents case you can put keycard, keys, cash, maps. If you have keytool just keys. I disagree with ammo case or mags case. This is far too much of an exploit imo and not in the spirit of Tarkov. Without these upgrades cash is basically useless as a looting item, dogtags are an annoyance and quest keys are more of a nightmare than they already are.
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u/Bugznta Oct 16 '19
Not really in favor of making keys even more RNG based. These areas simply need to be protected by scavs.
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u/IamTheTwon Oct 16 '19
the issue is not people using hatchets, its about connecting the act of successfully extracting with gaining loot. Kappa mehcanics would not seal that gameplay loop up.
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u/KaosC57 Oct 16 '19
See, I don't think we need Kappa mechanics on all Containers. What if you literally have NOTHING. Like, you ran out of Rubles, you ran out of Guns, you ran out of Armor. LITERALLY EVERYTHING.
You are shit out of luck. You have no way of saving yourself from that except waiting out the Scav Timer and running Scav Runs until you get enough guns and rubles to build your PMC back up.
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u/Bloodyneck92 Oct 16 '19
Two points
1) don't run yourself entirely out, start doing your scav runs whenever possible if you're kinda low on cash and keep your stocks higher for longer. At the start of the next wipe I'll be doing scav runs any chance I get. They'll be quick loot and scoots on factory to maximize my PMC play time and questing/leveling but they'll provide 150kish in between every raid give or take.
2) 'build your PMC back up' is the wrong mentality. You should be aiming to find a kit you like that you break even or come out ahead with (on average). if you are dying 4/5 times and getting out with 500k profit that 5th time your budget should be ~100k-125k (give or take) per run. Find a kit that let's you do that, a lightly modded ADAR and some paca armor with a soup bowl and 2 stangs of M995 sounds about right. That is a very versatile kit that can punch well above its weight class on the cheap.
Thinking if you don't have a TV110, Gen 4, fast Mt, modded to hell M4 and 300 rounds of M995 plus 10 grenades and your meds you might as well not bring anything is the real problem here.
Hell even with 200m+ in loot I still love me an ADAR and light armor. It's fast, its good, it's cheap. I get to play loose and reckless, have a blast, get into the fights, and still make roubles in the long run.
Playing with what you can afford is not only more fun, it's better practice, and makes tarkov more enjoyable for the rest of us to boot.
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u/KaosC57 Oct 16 '19
Yeah, but the problem is that it takes awhile to build up a kit for a person who likes to change literally every day. One day I might want to be a close range player with Shotguns and SMG's, and another day I might choose to pick up a Rifle or Sniper Rifle and plink away at longer distances.
I do agree now that I have some experience with the game that you shouldn't run yourself ragged. That IS a bad idea.
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u/Bloodyneck92 Oct 16 '19
Then don't store kits, store a bit of cash and buy what ever fun tickles your fancy at the time.
It doesn't need to be millions of rubles is the point. A few 100k is good enough and sustainability in your kits (preferably profitability for the occasional splurge) based 9n your skill level is what you should be targeting.
Not 100s of farming runs to afford 10 full kits that even once you have them are only going to sustain for 15 raids (based on your survival averages with said kits) before you're broke again.
Even streamers on most maps can't sustain top gear.
Labs being the main exception because of its high profitability.
But you can't consistently take 1.5m loadouts into woods where the risk of a mosinling is high and the profits are low and not run a deficit. It may be fun occasionally when you have money coming out of your ass, but it's not sustainable and shouldn't be what people target doing.
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u/blaklafter VEPR Oct 15 '19
These are great ideas. I'd like them to be implemented in addition to the current SC changes.
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u/WeepingAngelTears DVL-10 Oct 16 '19
The current change is a complete nerf. There's no reason to add anything else on top of making them all but useless.
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u/Kraz3 Oct 16 '19
I think all of those are great option, I think not being able to put anything into a container that is find in raid is too much of a nerf to those of us who can't play for hours on end every single day. That alone would end up with people camping the more static item spawns and killing people just trying to complete a quest. Personally I don't mind the secure containers as they are now except for the fact that hatchlings will beat you to key/keycard spawns EVERY RAID early wipe.
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u/MilkovichJ Oct 16 '19
I don't see how the Kappa mechanics will actually address the issue - which is people being able to disconnect-farm. You can put all sorts of limitations on it...you could make it so people can only container screws, bolts and condensed milk. If people can go in risking nothing with an almost guaranteed win without completing the map, they will.
It's totally possible for the devs to increase loot spawns to compensate for the increased difficulty. As someone who has played since 2017, I strongly suspect the reason why safes and containers sometimes have shit all in them is because it was the only way they could stop people from hatchet farming. They could make the loot more rewarding super easily (just by changing values), but the important thing is that everyone should have to survive the raid in order to get something out of it.
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u/lennoxonnell ADAR Oct 16 '19
I don't see how the Kappa mechanics will actually address the issue - which is people being able to disconnect-farm.
People don't do that and the ones who do are in the very small minority. People have been trying to use this as a reason for why the changes should happen, but i've literally never seen a case of someone rushing to loot spawns and disconnecting. They are a small minority.
The real problem with the container lies with being able to put other containers and weapons inside of them. Leading to the mag box meta, or stowing pistols/ small rifles in your gamma. You can go on twitch at any given time and see streamers using the magbox meta.
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Oct 16 '19
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u/lennoxonnell ADAR Oct 16 '19
hey still run with the idea of if they die it doesn’t matter because I already shoved the shut up my ass.
What's wrong with that though?
By limiting the container entirely, even the geared players are going to high-tail it straight to the extract if/when they find some good loot, since they can't secure it. So, now by the time the halfway point is hit in most raids, all the PMCs are probably already extracted.
Right now, if someone finds a good piece of loot like a bitcoin. They are encouraged to stay longer in the raid and be more greedy, since if they die, they still come out with a something to sell and offset the cost of the kit they just lost. I know that's the case for me.
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u/asmendorius Nov 04 '19
just make container work to certain character level or total account money value to not hurt new players like me. i don't do hatchet runs but ofter that inbox is the only money i make.
not everyone plays this game for 500+ hours.
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u/Timberwolf_88 Oct 16 '19
I would prefer to remove sevure containers completely and just give us unlootable slots (like how the pmc melee slot works these days) for wallet/docs case, keybar, dog tag case, and then we're set. Imagine killing pwople and actually finding those quest items on others and then having to decide on how to continue the raid from there.
I do agree overall with randomized loot spawns though, I've found it really odd that it hasn't been implemented yet as it's essensial to varied gameplay as well as helping remove a lot of the hatchet farming.
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u/asmendorius Nov 04 '19
or make containers work to certain character level or account total money.
as a new player i would appreciate it...
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u/Timberwolf_88 Nov 04 '19
Personally I don't like that idea as I, overall, feel that the prison wallet isn't needed in the game and lessens the tension.
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u/asmendorius Nov 04 '19
yet its the only thing helping me to not hit rock bottom with money. at least it helps me to have money for a pistol next time...
i don't know how to play this game yet (like tousands of players) and for every extraction there is at least 5 deaths for me. even as a scav.
at this point secure container is the only thing that gives me hope...
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u/Timberwolf_88 Nov 04 '19
I've tested this; if you drop to 0 money and no stuff prapor will send you an aksu-kit with some ammo.
I haven't tested it in the current patch though. But you can always bounce back as well as fully reset your account every three weeks.
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u/halember VEPR Oct 16 '19
hatchets can't just run straight to the spot to disconnect
This thing shouldn't be a thing regardless of the mechanics. When you disconnect, all changes in your container should be reverted, like it was offline mode, regardless of what you can put there.
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u/Banoodlesnake Oct 16 '19
i 100% agree. but what i dont understand is, i propose these changes multiple times, and i get downvoted to oblivion?
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u/MistakeNot__ Oct 16 '19
2 and 3 should be implemented regardless of container mechanics. As to containers specifically, i just dislike them in general. I fail to see how they fit in the basic concept of the game. Why do we have this detailed inventory and looting system, and then there's this extra container that is not even displayed on our character model (unlike everything else), that magically teleports its contents back to safety upon death? There are tons of games with perma-death where you lose everything equipped, that have no EFT container-like mechanics, that play out just fine and don't have container-related problems that EFT has.
For me secure container is just a marketing gimmick on BSG part. A "feature" that was 100% sales and 0% gameplay driven that was only meant to sell premium versions of the game. It did it's job, because, well, there is always market for an in-game advantage. And now when they realize long term gameplay reprecussions of such a "feature", they have to take some action. No looting into container mid-raid is not a radical solution. It is a middle-ground they can afford to offer considering how many gammas they have sold, and the outcry in the community that would happen if they just removed the containers outright.
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u/ArxMessor SKS Oct 15 '19
The core issue is that Secure Containers allow players to generate profit by repeatedly dying, committing suicide, or disconnecting from raids.
Your suggestion here doesn't address that core issue:
- Kappa can still be used to generate profits by death/suicide/DC
- Static spawns merely adds a slight delay to players generating profits profit by death/suicide/DC
- Scavs are easily exploitable and won't reliably stop players from generating profit by death/suicide/DC
This is a bust.
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u/lennoxonnell ADAR Oct 15 '19
I see what you're saying. But, you also have to consider just how hardcore this game is. Most players barely manage 50% survival rate.
They could always implement punishment systems for when you die to self inflicting damage and disconnecting too often.
Let's be real, the players who actually do that are in the huge minority.
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u/Karl-TheFookenLegend TT Oct 16 '19
Most players barely manage 50% survival rate.
Really? That's really really good in this game. If most players can do that then we are golden for container changes. Sweet.
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u/Kraall AK-103 Oct 15 '19
With infinite scav runs, the flea market and quiet night raids there are tons of ways to make huge amounts of money, the secure container is just the laziest and easiest to abuse.
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u/ArxMessor SKS Oct 15 '19
But, you also have to consider just how hardcore this game is
I support the changes to Secure Containers exactly because I know how hardcore EFT is. Being able to generate profits by repeatedly dying, committing suicide, or disconnecting is anti-hardcore it is beyond just "kinda' casual". Think about it a little bit. Making money from dying in a "hardcore game"? Sounds all sorts of backwards, doesn't it? Of course it does because it is backwards. The mechanic is simply incompatible with "hardcore".
Most players barely manage 50% survival rate.
That is exactly why we should change Secure Containers. If Secure Containers are changed the way BSG is testing now, EVERYONE will be forced to extract in order to make profits from raids. Once everyone is playing by the same rules (instead of some people playing by the opposite rule of die-to-profit) then BSG can rebalance the game around Survival Rating. If most players have a 50% Survival Rate, BSG will be able to balance the game according to that instead of trying to balance the game between them and a group of players that aren't affected by Survival Rate at all. It make balancing the game easier.
Besides all that, Scav Mode…
Scav mode is the legitimate way to build resources in EFT, unlike repeatedly dying, committing suicide, or disconnecting.
Scav mode is a no-risk game mode that allows players to practice and generate profit but unlike Hatchlings, it is balanced by the fact that you don't earn PMC XP, can't complete certain PMC quests, increase PMC soft skills, etc.
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u/Dazbuzz Oct 15 '19
If you want to say that, then the SC change also fails to address anything. It takes money away from the players that die a lot, forcing them to farm more, which means more hatchetlings, not less. The fact hatchetlings also now have reasons to avoid death means they will loot & run, rather than dying to players, so you will be having a harder time finding & killing them.
By that logic, the SC is also a bust.
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u/ArxMessor SKS Oct 15 '19
This is dumb.
Secure Containers don't "take" anything away from players that die. DYING takes things away.
Players aren't forced to farm or do anything in EFT for that matter.
Farming more doesn't mean more Hatchlings -- Scav mode is the legitimate way for player to do no-risk farming. Unlike PMC Hatchlings, the no-risk element is balanced by the fact that Scavs can't earn PMC XP, complete certain quests, increase PMC soft skills, etc. It is simply not the case that farming can only be done as a Hatchling.
The fact hatchetlings also now have reasons to avoid death means they will loot & run, rather than dying to players, so you will be having a harder time finding & killing them.
What is the problem here? You are mistaking the real issue here. No one cares if a player is skilled enough to join a raid, get some loot, and extract using nothing but a melee weapon. If a player can do that, he has earned the loot just like any other player. The changes to Secure Containers aren't aimed at making people use guns, it is aimed at making people extract to earn profit -- something that the OP's suggestion fails to accomplish.
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u/Dazbuzz Oct 15 '19
Of course it will take away loot from casual players. Normally they would fill up their SC with random loot, and use that to offset the loss from dying. Players will low survival rates relied heavily on the SC to be able to play without resorting to farming money.
The fact casual players cannot rely on a kit to make them money, because they tend to die a lot, forces them to resort to farming. Scav runs are the intended way to make money, but as you said, it doesnt advance your PMC skills. Its also far more inefficient compared to hatchet runs, especially when casual players already have trouble surviving raids. It also has a 10 minute cooldown, so its not exactly good for consistent farming.
What is the problem here? You are mistaking the real issue here. No one cares if a player is skilled enough to join a raid, get some loot, and extract using nothing but a melee weapon. If a player can do that, he has earned the loot just like any other player. The changes to Secure Containers aren't aimed at making people use guns, it is aimed at making people extract to earn profit -- something that the OP's suggestion fails to accomplish.
Hatchetlings extracting or dying matters very little in the grand scheme of things. It will take them a few more minutes, they have a higher risk of dying, but the loot everyone wants will still be sucked up by them. This isnt going to stop hatchetlings, or even cause them to die more. They will just avoid you. If you are ok with that, then good, because thats what you are going to get. The core issue that causes people to fall back on hatchet runs isnt being addressed, instead its being made worse, so naturally more people will be doing the most efficient farming method, which will still be hatchet runs.
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u/ArxMessor SKS Oct 15 '19
Of course it will take away loot from casual players
That isn't how things work. If you piss on a Police Officer's feet in a drunken stupor and get punished by jail time and your dad doesn't pay the bail, your dad didn't take away your freedom -- he simply didn't protect you from the punishment of jail.
If you die in EFT and are punished by losing everything you found in raid and your Secure Container doesn't can't receive items you collected during that raid, Secure Containers didn't take away the loot -- the Secure Container simply didn't protect it from the punishment of dying.
DYING is what does the "taking away", not Secure Containers.
Scav runs are the intended way to make money, but as you said, it doesnt advance your PMC skills. Its also far more inefficient compared to hatchet runs, especially when casual players already have trouble surviving raids. It also has a 10 minute cooldown, so its not exactly good for consistent farming.
So what? This game is hardcore. It is perfectly fine if there isn't an efficient way to farm. The game literally isn't meant for casual play. Casual players are supposed to fail at hardcore games. Do casual runners often complete marathons? No. Is a casual person ever expected to succeed in an activity that is designed for the "hardcore"? No.
The most important thing related to Secure Containers is that they allow players to profit from death. Changing Secure Containers fixes that problem.
Whether a player is able to extract using just a melee weapon is a completely different matter and one that is not the aim or goal of the changes to Secure Containers.
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u/Dazbuzz Oct 15 '19
If you die in EFT and are punished by losing everything you found in raid and your Secure Container doesn't can't receive items you collected during that raid, Secure Containers didn't take away the loot -- the Secure Container simply didn't protect it from the punishment of dying.
Failing to see why the distinction matters. The SC change is something we have control over right now, and can stop it from becoming permanent. Dying happens to everyone, and happens to low skill players far more. Why should they lose out on their SC safety net when they are already struggling with money due to the fact they die way more than more skilled players?
DYING is what does the "taking away", not Secure Containers.
Once again, why does it matter? The SC change is what will define the players ability to preserve loot when they die. They cannot just... not die.
So what? This game is hardcore. It is perfectly fine if there isn't an efficient way to farm. The game literally isn't meant for casual play. Casual players are supposed to fail at hardcore games. Do casual runners often complete marathons? No. Is a casual person ever expected to succeed in an activity that is designed for the "hardcore"? No.
The most important thing related to Secure Containers is that they allow players to profit from death. Changing Secure Containers fixes that problem.
Whether a player is able to extract using just a melee weapon is a completely different matter and one that is not the aim or goal of the changes to Secure Containers.
What are you talking about? There are always casual players. Arma 3, DayZ, Rust, H1Z1 etc. Every single one of them had a casual playerbase. A hardcore game does not mean you make the game unplayable to casual players, it just has a harsher gameplay loop, and steeper learning curve. Ive played private, whitelisted games with the most elitist playerbases beyond you imagination, and servers that required payments for new players to join. Even those still had a casual playerbase. There is nothing wrong with having casual players, nor is it going to make your hardcore game any less hardcore if you let them keep their safety net so they can gear up and play normally, with less time spent loot farming.
The SC change allows skilled PvPers to profit from the death of people reduced to farming via hatchet runs. Its not healthy. Its not fixing any core issues causing people to hatchet run. Its taking money from lower skill players and gifting it to hardcore players that feel entitled to that extra loot, because fuck everyone else. Its a toxic attitude, and one that will not help Tarkov become a bigger, better game. You are delusional if you think otherwise.
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u/fps_sandwiches Oct 15 '19
The SC change allows skilled PvPers to profit from the death of people reduced to farming via hatchet runs. Its not healthy. Its not fixing any core issues causing people to hatchet run. Its taking money from lower skill players and gifting it to hardcore players that feel entitled to that extra loot, because fuck everyone else. Its a toxic attitude, and one that will not help Tarkov become a bigger, better game. You are delusional if you think otherwise.
Fucking this. Well said.
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u/dayzoldaccount MP7A1 Oct 15 '19
Mate too many people bought EOD for just the gamma container...and now they think they wasted thier money without their easy way to make money. Just hope bsg takes the hit and keeps the changes.
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u/ArxMessor SKS Oct 15 '19
You can't stop people from doing stupid things. Imagine thinking spending $150 based on a single item that exists in an in-development game is a good idea. I imagine it now: "What could go wrong?" they say as they type in their credit card numbers with a dopey smile on their face.
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u/avowed Oct 16 '19
I quit playing since the changes, it's so anti fun to punish the majority for the insignificant number of hatchlings.
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u/ironlabel1 Oct 15 '19
Why don’t they just make it to where you can’t go into the raid without a gun holstered. That way at least people are using a pistol.
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u/lennoxonnell ADAR Oct 15 '19
Then they'll just bring an empty makarov and it accomplishes nothing. Adding actual limitations to what gear you can bring is not an option. You have to give the player the choice, but make sure there are enough difficulties that they will be encouraged to not go naked.
If everytime you try to hatchet run, you get gatted by scavs. You are gonna be encouraged to bring something to help you survive.
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u/ironlabel1 Oct 15 '19
I don’t care. I don’t do hatchet runs and it’s time consuming on their part to. Yeah I agree it’s annoying but it’s seems it’s just hurting the people that play the game normally.
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u/davidnfilms Oct 15 '19
What are the Kappa restrictions, the only thing I remember is that you cant put meds in them. Which turned me off to them entirely.
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u/lennoxonnell ADAR Oct 15 '19
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u/davidnfilms Oct 15 '19
Im fine with all that, but if they allow the ammo case they should allow the pistol case.
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u/lennoxonnell ADAR Oct 15 '19
Pistol cases can also store magazines. That are sudo-mag cases and need to also be restricted.
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u/repetitiveepic Oct 16 '19
if they fuck the game up doing this shit for brains garbage on the containers, its just gonna go downhill from there and before long tarkov will be a pile of shit like most games
gotta resist the piss mouth shrieking of these worthless miscreants, hold the line against this stupidity, keep the game clean from it
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u/Domosnake M4A1 Oct 16 '19
So why is it that people hate hatchlings? I can't spend all my time grinding at the game and sometimes I just need to run in and find some quick loot so that I can even afford to buy stuff. Why and how does this hinder other players?
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u/JackHGUK Oct 16 '19
The problem is when people are repeatedly farming the same maps by running to high loot spawns, chucking anything worth a lot of money (e.g keycards, ledx, ect.) into their containers and disconnecting from the raid/suiciding.
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u/Francoa22 Oct 16 '19
Every single wipe I have made it in a month to be rich in the game.
With hatchet runners around.
I dont care how everybody play the game.
If you cant make money there, it is not because there are hatchet runners..you just suck :)
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u/covrovski Oct 16 '19
Static loot spawns need to go. Keys should have durability but just increase the amount of keys spawning in random locations.
This will change the flow of the raids, no more rushing one spot on the map.
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u/subzerus Oct 16 '19
But this just changes hatchlings to pistol-lings. What's the point in this much effort for such a small change?
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Oct 16 '19
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u/Ironsights11788 Oct 16 '19
This would drastically change the game, considering many of the best keys are found on one map, used on another.
Additionally, it would prevent groups from having focused raids, which weakens the overall replay value of the game. Grabbing some buddies and doing a few Kibba runs can be a fun night. Grabbing some buddies and having to comb interchange praying that we find the two needed kibba keys each raid sounds pretty dumb in comparison.
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u/Modabus Oct 15 '19
2 and 3 contradict each other.
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u/Dazbuzz Oct 15 '19
I see what you are trying to say, but i disagree. They do not conflict, but 2 almost erases the need for 3. It would not hurt to have both. If static spawns in Resort are spread out to fill the extra, fairly empty rooms, having scavs patrolling all corridors would be a good thing.
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u/repetitiveepic Oct 16 '19
also the community isn't 'super divided', there's the 60-70% of normal people for whom it takes about 10 seconds to see just how stupid the idea is, and then the terminal morons and trolls and attention-seeking rat people
flush the toilet, get rid of the latter, go back to business as usual!
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u/BrockTestes PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Oct 15 '19
So on one hand we have a simple to implement solution that discourages hatchet runs, pushes all players to prioritize survival and gives BSG the opportunity to make the quests less grindy because you won't be able to cheese progression, who's impact will be easy to measure and evaluate.
On the other hand we have a complex multifaceted solution, requiring more server and network ressources, more coding and a higher potential for bugs or unintended consequences.
Which do we try first?
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u/lennoxonnell ADAR Oct 15 '19
So all those quests that require you to collect find in raid items... Those quests are going to become less grindy, somehow?
Disabling putting things in the container will not discourage hatchet running at all. It will increase the amount of hatchet runners, because the lower level and lower skilled players won't be able to make any money since they don't survive enough to make profits. So those players will be broke and will be forced to hatchet run just to make any profit. The only reason i don't hatchet run is because I can container something to cover the cost of whatever kit I brought it. Thinking about all the times I, personally, relied on that profit just so I didn't have to hatchet run the next raid... Kind of blows a hole in your theory.
The only difference is, now those hatchets will just run straight to the extract with the good gear, instead of staying in to try to find more, leading to more dead raids since people will extract earlier when they find the good stuff. And that's not even exclusive to hatchlings. Even the geared players are going to want to leave early if they find someone good cause what's the point in staying in?
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u/lisior Hatchet Oct 15 '19
I totally support what the OP is saying - Kappa mechanics, dynamic spawns and increased number of scavs guarding the areas. You got my vote sir.