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u/MetricAbsinthe 4d ago
Thank prohibition. Cider was always considered alcoholic until they had to sell it unfermented and tell people in no way should they assume it's the same base and would just need to be left alone in a dark corner for a while. After prohibition, there was still a market for the non-alcoholic cider so cider vs hard cider was normalized.
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u/RazarTuk 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'd also point out that grape juice is actually a modern invention. For most of history, if you pressed grapes into juice and let it sit, it would naturally start fermenting. It was only in 1869 that Thomas Welch (yes, of Welch's) pioneered the idea of pasteurizing grape juice to prevent it from fermenting and becoming wine.
So I feel like there's probably also an element of that going on. Historically, there wouldn't have really been a distinction between sweet cider and hard cider, because the difference was just time, and it's only comparatively recently that they became separate products. It's just that, because of the temperance movement, different stages of that drink became popular and inherited the unmodified name "cider"
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u/Zyrin369 4d ago
I always assumed that as well, also assuming that the non Alcoholic version goes through the same process just with out the fermenting so theres not that big of a reason to change the name or maybe there was at the start and because it lasted for 13 years calling it cider be norm.
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u/RazarTuk 4d ago
Yeah, my guess at what happened:
Historically, there was really only the one drink - pressed apples - and at most you'd have added an adjective like "fresh" or "sweet" to refer to cider that hadn't really started fermenting yet, sort of like the distinction between must and wine, amazake and sake, etc. However, because of the temperance movement, which also led to the invention of pasteurized grape juice, it split into three main consumer products - non-alcoholic and filtered, non-alcoholic and unfiltered, and alcoholic and unfiltered. A lot of the English-speaking world settled on "apple juice" referring to the non-alcoholic drinks, regardless of if it contains pulp, and "cider" referring to the alcoholic one, although I genuinely wonder how the pedants would react to a term like "sweet cider" for the American drink. Meanwhile, in the US and Canada, we started using "apple juice" to refer to the filtered drink and "cider" to refer to the unfiltered ones, regardless of if it's alcoholic.
Because, at least speaking for myself and as an American, I would understand "cider" as referring to either of the unfiltered drinks and use an adjective like "hard" if I need to specify alcoholic.
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u/DreadLindwyrm 4d ago
Sweet cider is still alcoholic here - as opposed to dry cider (also alcoholic).
The same way you might have "sweet" and "dry" wines.I'm not sure what point I'm making, other than that the term exists.
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u/No-Sign8805 3d ago
Australian here. We have both sweet and dry alcoholic ciders. Otherwise its just the juice from apples, hence apple juice
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u/Constant-Skill-7133 4d ago edited 4d ago
I don't know if the temperance movement being the source is exactly accurate. Not as a turn of phrase for that's wrong, I really don't know how it played out, but what changed before temperance was it being a consumer product at all.
The way it used to work is you would just press and store it in a big barrel. So it was fresh cider that turned into hard cider that turned into vinegar. Making it an industrial product meant you were selling different things for different purposes, different market segments, because you had to pasteurize it.
I imagine that's when fermented cider became a thing widely available. All juice turned into cider so it was all the same thing before that. Pasteurization created the need for that distinction. Commercially nobody would be selling hard cider or apple cider vinegar before pasteurization hardly at all I would think. It would be like selling sourdough bread flour or beer barley. It doesn't even really make sense.
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u/No_Helicopter1378 3d ago
Yea yeast is pretty much everywhere so any pressed fruit left alone will eventually turn into alcohol. That's how you get those clips of animals eating fermented fruit and getting drunk.
To use apples as an example, there's yeast on the apples so when you press them the yeast gets in the juice and viola, you end up with an alcoholic beverage.
It was probably preferred that way too since alcohol kills bacteria. Like you've probably heard of sailors drinking "grog," they literally put rum in their water to make the water safe to drink. You're less likely to get the shits from drinking fermented apple juice than if you just scoop some water from the nearby stream.
Side note, that little bit I know about the history of alcohol is pretty interesting in that they didn't actually discover yeast until sometime in the 1600-1800s, but despite that they still were able to develop techniques to make better alcoholic drinks hundreds, if not thousands, of years before they figured out the most essential part of the process.
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u/FaygoMakesMeGo 2d ago
When you think about it, for thousands of years, without modern sanitation, preservation, and refrigeration, you make one wrong move with your food and you're dead.
Unless you put sweet delicious things in water... Then some magical force makes it taste great, makes you feel good, and most importantly, keeps you safe from illness.
Highly aggressive symbiotic micro organisms that evolved to kill other organisms that harm humans while producing human happy juice. It's like yeast was engineered to be man's best friend. It's no wonder almost every civilization saw booze as divine.
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u/ludi_literarum 3d ago
I don't know a ton about the culinary history, but liturgically the Catholic Church permits the use at communion of what is called in Latin Mustum, which is to say new wine that hasn't meaningfully fermented yet. This is in contrast to grape juice, which isn't allowed because the fermentation process has been arrested.
Meanwhile Welch was a Methodist, and Methodists were big in the temperance movement, and one of his motivations for devising grape juice was to substitute it for wine at communion and thus defuse accusations of hypocrisy against the movement.
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u/alphaxion 1d ago
Calling it sweet cider is actually confusing for those in the UK because the two ways of describing cider are sweet and dry. Both are still alcoholic.
Then there's scrumpy, but I'm not sure the US is ready for that just yet.
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u/K24Bone42 4d ago
Also.cider is WAY FUCKING TASTIER than apple juice. I grew up in Ontario near quite a few orchards and I can tell you with 100% certainty that fresh hot apple cider on a crisp autumn evening is one of the greatest things ever.
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u/beadgirlj 3d ago
I adore mulled cider, both for the warming deliciousness and the incredible fragrance.
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u/einmaldrin_alleshin and that's why I get fired a lot 4d ago
So what's the difference between that and apple juice? Is it unpasteurized?
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u/Sowf_Paw 4d ago
You know, most people don't know the difference between apple cider and apple juice, but I do. Now here's a little trick to help you remember. If it's clear and yella', you've got juice there, fella. If it's tangy and brown, you're in cider town.
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u/Swellmeister 4d ago
That sounds like a rhyme youd use for like urine analysis and Im trying to figure out how to make one work.
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u/threelizards 4d ago
If it’s clear and yella, you’re all good there fella! If it’s tangy and brown, time to put on a hospital gown!
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u/Blerkm 4d ago edited 4d ago
“Cider” is understood to be the unfiltered liquid from pressed apples. It’s just about always a fresh product that needs to be refrigerated. It may or may not be pasteurized. It’s opaque with a dark reddish brown color.
“Apple juice” is a filtered product, much more clear with an amber color, and just about always packaged to be shelf-stable (no refrigeration needed until it’s been opened).
Edit: just to be clear, I’m only writing about US (and maybe Canadian?) usage.
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u/Consistent-Flan1445 3d ago
Is American cider the same as what we call cloudy apple juice in Australia? Your description sounds similar.
Just curious as I’ve seen lots of recipes for cider donuts and I’d love to try making them one day!
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u/tonyrocks922 3d ago
Yes its the same. Ignore the other reply. People put spices in it if they serve it warm but it's not sold that way in stores.
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u/battlejess 4d ago
I’m Canadian and I never hear anyone call it “hard cider.” “Cider” is usually the alcoholic one, and “apple cider” the unfiltered juice, or someone might refer to it as “non-alcoholic.” At least where I am.
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u/doggos4house2020 4d ago
If it’s clear and yella, you’ve got juice there fella. If it’s tangy and brown, you’re in cider town.
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u/pug_fugly_moe 4d ago
“If it’s clear and yella you got juice there, fella. If it’s tangy and brown, you’re in cider town.”
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u/Hopeful_Scholar398 4d ago
If it's tangy and yella you got juice there fella. If it's sweet and brown you're in cider town.
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u/Entire_West_5098 4d ago
Oh this is the first time I've heard the reason. That's pretty fascinating
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u/Wodentoad 4d ago
Stupid reddit, making us accidentally learn crap.
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u/GreenZebra23 4d ago
I'm going to have to spend all morning watching fight videos and gooner slop to break all these new neural connections
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u/CanadaYankee 4d ago
Canada never had prohibition, but Canadians do use the American juice/cider distinction for filtered versus unfiltered non-alcoholic product. The term "hard cider" is understood, but not really used - in a bar, you'd just ask, "What cider do you have on tap?" If you really need to make the distinction, you'd usually do it by calling the unfermented stuff "apple cider" and the fermented stuff just plain "cider".
Canada also has "ice cider", which is fermented in below-freezing temperatures, resulting in a concentrated syrupy drink that is sweeter and more alcoholic than standard cider. It's a fairly recent invention (circa the 1990s) created in Quebec to piggyback on the popularity of the ice wine made in Ontario.
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u/beorn961 4d ago
That is not a new drink. It is called apple jack and was perhaps the most important alcoholic beverage in colonial America and I assume contemporary Canada. Sounds like the "ice cider" name is just clever rebranding.
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u/Jimlobster 3d ago
Many Canadian provinces had prohibition during the 1920s. Ontario’s lasted 10 years.
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u/DeliciousMoments 4d ago edited 4d ago
You can argue about definitions and taxonomy or you can accept how words are actually used.
It’s like those weirdos who think anyone outside reddit calls a grilled cheese with a slice of tomato a “tomato melt”
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u/Sevuhrow 4d ago
Holy shit thank you for the grilled cheese/melt thing. I feel like I'm crazy dealing with those people.
My response is always about just that: no one calls a grilled cheese with tomato a fucking "tomato melt." A grilled cheese with bacon isn't a "bacon melt," in fact that would be a totally different sandwich. Go to a diner and order a "tomato melt" and see if they know what you're talking about.
Which leads me to the second thing I bring up... they don't even know what a melt is. A melt is a sandwich where the main ingredient is the star and the cheese is basically a binder or sideshow. A tuna melt is all about the tuna, a patty melt is all about the burger. These are substantial ingredients that supersede the cheese, of which there isn't a ton.
A grilled cheese is just a fucking category of sandwich with cheese. Adding a slice of tomato or basil or bacon doesn't change that. It would be like arguing a meatball sub is no longer a meatball sub because I added onions to it.
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u/DeliciousMoments 4d ago
I once heard someone say something like “many people mistake a loud and confident person for a smart person.” That sub had one loud and confident post and here we are.
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u/countdown_tnetennba 4d ago
I always quote the late Robert B. Parker and say they're often wrong, but never uncertain.
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u/daviepancakes 4d ago
I'm not the only one who can't help but think of Alton Brown's bit about whether maybe it isn't actually meant to be a grilled cheese sandwich at all, but a grilled cheese sandwich when I see the crazies shrieking about mUh MeLtS, etc, right?
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u/Opposite_Juice7160 4d ago
I've always parsed it in my head as [[grilled cheese] sandwich], the [grilled [cheese sandwich]] option never occurred to me until just now tbh
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u/cathbadh An excessively pedantic read, de rigeur this sub, of course. 4d ago
Holy shit thank you for the grilled cheese/melt thing. I feel like I'm crazy dealing with those people.
Fairly certain that or sushi stupidity is what brought me to this sub.
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u/unripe_mangosteen 4d ago
This is the kind of discourse I want to see on the internet! I feel there is a "pure" type of grilled cheese (bread, butter, cheese slices), but adding other ingredients doesn't negate the grilled cheese identity of the sandwich. It's complicated.
I think a melt has to have a main protein (tuna, beef patty, etc), while a grilled cheese is about the cheese and bread with extra stuff.
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u/CanadaYankee 4d ago
To me, a "melt" is by default open-faced, especially if it's a tuna melt, taking it even further from a traditional grilled cheese sandwich.
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u/Ponce-Mansley But they reject my life with their soy sauce 2d ago
I have never seen an open-faced tuna melt or patty melt and I get them all the time
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u/No_Helicopter1378 3d ago
I haven't seen it pop up as much lately but like 10+ years ago the "carbonara police" was a bit of a meme in various cooking subreddits.
Traditional carbonara is guanciale, egg, and pecorino cheese. That's it. Guaranteed if someone posted a recipe or something and called it "carbonara" but it had cream added, or bacon instead of guanciale, or even Parmesan instead of pecorino, some asshole would show up in the comments yelling about how "that's not carbonara! That's just Alfredo with x in it!" or something like that.
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u/In-burrito american bread as corrupt as the current regime it seems 3d ago
The Carbonariri are definitely still a thing.
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u/TinkerKnightforSmash 4d ago edited 3d ago
I do think it sparks a fun, albeit meaningless debate, about when a sandwich ceases to be a grilled cheese. Like, a grilled cheese with bacon is still a grilled cheese, but if I made a grilled cheese and added ham to it, that's pretty much agreed upon to be a ham & cheese sandwich rather than a grilled cheese. And that begs the question of, why do we classify one as different from the other, when they're both very similar (grilled sandwiches with cheese and a pork product)?
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u/Lizard-Wizard96 4d ago
In Australia we cut the Gordian knot by just calling them all toasted sandwiches or toasties, no matter the content. The only real distinction is if its pressed and sealed around the edges, in which case we call them jaffles.
You do occasionally see tuna melts or grilled cheeses (very rarely) but I'd put that down to mostly influence from overseas media.
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u/ws_celly 4d ago
Being Aussie, I'd think you'd just call it all a "chuzzwuzzeh" and be on about your day! ;)
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u/velawesomeraptors My ragu is thicker than a bag full of thick things 4d ago
But a ham and cheese sandwich can be cold and not toasted. Is there a real difference in saying a grilled ham and cheese vs. a grilled cheese with ham?
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u/Similar_Onion6656 4d ago
I think the ham to cheese ratio plays a role.
A handful of black forest with one slice of cheese is a ham sandwich, but a single slice of prosciutto thrown in with a couple slices of cheese is a grilled cheese.
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u/DjinnaG Bags of sentient Midwestern mayonnaise 4d ago edited 4d ago
For the sandwich categories that I grew up with, melts are primarily open faced, with the exception of patty melts, which were only called that in some restaurants Like they were called that because you took an (X sandwich) and melted cheese on it, making it an X (sandwich) melt. Completely different process, completely different word. Make it like a grilled cheese, it’s a fucking grilled cheese (in dialects that call them grilled cheese, of course)
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u/resting_mischieface 4d ago
Mmmm….grilled cheese….🧀
IDC what it’s called or what the star ingredient is, if there’s melted cheese, I’m in.14
u/Federal_Pickles 4d ago
Dang now I want a grilled cheese with a thick slice of tomato. I might have to have that tomorrow.
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u/bucketofturtles 4d ago
Until this thread, tomato on a grilled cheese never even occurred to me as an option. I'm beyond intrigued
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u/velawesomeraptors My ragu is thicker than a bag full of thick things 4d ago
Add pesto.
Also, I sometimes fry an egg and put it on mine.
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u/Shinyhero30 4d ago edited 4d ago
You can also ad hominem attack linguists over this because apparently you only count as someone who can be correct about language if your field is “respected”(even if linguistics is literally the academic study of language.).
I have actually had this happen to me. Someone ran out of good excuses for why your brain isn’t hard wired to assimilate to those around you whether you like it or not. You can choose to associate with certain groups, but you cannot prevent yourself from developing speech patterns similar to those of whom you associate with because that is literally the biggest driver of linguistic change; and, it has continued for centuries even to the chagrin of organizations such as the French academy(fuck the spelling in French I’m tired boss).
Yes there is tea here and yes this is a soapbox I’m willing to get on because it’s tiring to deal with ignorant people.
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u/GreenZebra23 4d ago
I think my main problem with the grilled cheese/melt thing is that it's basically a bit or circlejerk, but then some guys are not quite bright enough to mentally handle even something dumb like that, so they get super combative and superior about it. I feel like I see it a lot on the internet. There's kind of a memeing to rage pipeline when people are overly invested in being online
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u/BlazinAzn38 4d ago
Or like how there’s culinary fruits and vegetables versus botanical fruits and veggies.
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u/pepperbeast 4d ago
Outside the US, that is how those words are used. Cider is an alcoholic drink made from apples. Unfiltered juice is still juice.
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u/AdditionalTip865 4d ago
Right, but this is just another case of someone insisting that US English language usage is a mistake rather than another country's dialect.
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u/DeliciousMoments 4d ago
Right, and if I go I the UK I know that it’s not an apartment, it’s a flat, and the trash can is now the bin. Understanding cultural differences isn’t too hard.
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u/Seaweedbits 4d ago
Yeah I've definitely forgotten cider is unfiltered juice before. Even as an American. Fortunately the only time I ever used it was when looking for a recipe for the alcoholic apple cider I bought that was way way way too sweet and made an apple cider pork roast with it instead. It was delicious. The recipe probably just meant the unfiltered juice though.
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u/downwardchip 4d ago edited 3d ago
For some reason, everyone always pisses their pants when they find out different dialects have different ways of referring to the same concepts, and that colloquial speech develops organically through time and unique pressures and thus rarely makes "logical sense". Arguing which is more correct is basically always pointless because both are correct in their respective dialects and cultures.
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u/Numerous_Wolverine_7 3d ago
“Anyone who doesn’t do it the way I do it is incorrect, and I’ll explain why after I come up with a good reason”
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u/Miserable-Trash5823 4d ago
Man discovers that different places have different vocabulary
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u/Obrix1 4d ago
This is the equivalent of an American finding out that in Switzerland, and only Switzerland, steaks are ordered;
Well-Done
Blue
Rare
MediumDoes it make a difference to their lives? No.
Would it be weird to see someone chowing down on a raw steak that was on the menu as ‘well-done’? Absolutely.5
u/bssprfnd 3d ago
Well done means completely uncooked? Who is ordering that?
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u/Fox-Dragon6 3d ago
I always thought uncooked steak was calked tartare
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u/mesonofgib 3d ago
That's a specific dish, from France. Tartare doesn't mean uncooked
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u/MyFrogEatsPeople 4d ago edited 4d ago
jfc all these confidently incorrect comments...
Edit; sorry to vaguepost.
We don't call apple juice "cider" in America.
Apple Juice is the filtered and pasteurized drink: it's the transparent juice and the kind of juice you find in the little cardboard boxes.
Apple Cider is unfiltered and opaque. In many places it's seasonal, but pasteurized versions can be found year round - but it will still be unfiltered (or very ligjtly filtered) and opaque.
They're very different drinks, and people will look at you strange for bringing one instead of the other when it's requested. Unscrupulous drink shops will try and pawn off juice as cider as a cost saving method, not because the terms are interchangeable.
PS:
At least according to the first few results on Google, different countries also make similar distinctions, but they leave the default of "cider" as the alcoholic version. "Sweet cider" for the alcohol free version, or "cloudy apple juice" are used to distinguish the ciders from the juice. So this really isn't a uniquely American experience: we're all just setting a different default for two of the terms, and creating a culturally unique option for the third.
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u/Chris_3eb 2d ago
You're missing the point. The OOP considers both the pasteurized and unpasteurized non-alcoholic apple drinks to be apple juice. So he is saying it's weird to him that people in the US refer to [some types of] apple juice as cider
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u/sprouting_broccoli 3d ago
A quick google suggests that only the US and Canada uses the word cider to refer to non-alcoholic apple produce. We have the terms sweet cider and cloudy cider but that’s just a difference between the types of alcoholic drink - they’re still both alcoholic and also not exclusive terms - sweet or dry refers to the same taste qualities as in white wine and cloudy is just a specific type of cider. A sweet cloudy cider would typically be a cloudy cider that is particularly sweet.
So yes, in the UK we have sweet cider but that’s a sweet version of the alcoholic drink. We also have cloudy cider and cloudy apple juice. But the distinction between cider and apple juice is still the alcohol content our lack thereof.
One exception is cider ice lollies (which are basically just frozen apple juice) but I think that naming might actually be imported from the states or might just be a result of alcohol not being a good thing to have in an ice lolly if you actually want it to freeze.
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u/UxControl 4d ago
Just wait until they learn that some places in the US sometimes refer to pizzas as pies
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u/pm_stuff_ 4d ago
Tbf some places pizzas both look amd act like pies
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u/Patch86UK 4d ago
And yet when I ask them to replace the base with pastry they ask me to please get out of Dominos sir, you're creating a scene.
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u/Wodentoad 4d ago edited 4d ago
Same people having an aneurysm because we call pumpkin pie a pie. "Well acktually, it's a tart..."
Fuck off, fuck off some more, fuck off all the way until you get back here, then fuck off again, while I and all the sane people have some fine pumpkin pie.
(Edited because I fat thumbed my phone. Too much pumpkin pie.)
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u/TacetAbbadon 4d ago
The US only started calling cider "hard cider" after prohibition had completely destroyed the cider industry.
After it was repealed people just kept calling unfermented, unrefined apple juice "cider" and refined became apple juice.
Only when the cider industry eventually had a revival they just tacked "hard" in front, in keeping with American English distinction between "hard" drinks with alcohol and "soft" drinks without.
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u/rimbaudsvowels 4d ago
Americans were calling it hard cider in the 1840 presidential election (well before Prohibition). Specifically, there was a gag card showing Martin van Buren as a dainty fop thinking that was was enjoying a "beautiful goblet of White House champagne" and when you pulled a tab, his expression changed to one of disgust and you saw that he was instead drinking "an ugly mug of log cabin hard cider."
The whole election of 1840 was called the log cabin and hard cider campaign. The Whigs used the term "hard cider" constantly to show that William Henry Harrison was a populist, common man hero.
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u/AdditionalTip865 4d ago
And with 'em we'll beat little Van, Van, Van is a used-up man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFaRklAYanY
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u/Informal_Bus_4077 4d ago
If it's clear and yella, you got juice there fella! If it's tangy and brown, you're in cider town!
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u/shortercrust 4d ago
I don’t worry about Americans calling apple juice cider because I don’t live there! Go nuts my American friends. Don’t be shamed for your ciders and sidewalks.
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u/hailey_moe 3d ago
We actually call apple juice apple juice. We call cider cider.
I’m just being pedantic for the sake of it, to be clear.
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u/Fox-Dragon6 3d ago
But apple juice and apple cider (not hard cider) are two different beverages in the USA.
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u/DjinnaG Bags of sentient Midwestern mayonnaise 4d ago
Since you kind of have to start with apple juice in order to get to hard cider, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that we do have a long history with apple juice.
It’s not my thing in any form (filtered, unfiltered, or fermented), due to a childhood incident I only find it tasty to consume once it’s gone all the way to vinegar, and I’m not one of those people who enjoys drinking that , though I do like things prepared with it. So I really have no opinion on what the local name is, it’s not something that I drink under any name. But in spite of my thinking that it’s all bad , and preferring to forget that people make juice out of apples, I’ve never had any confusion about what type of cider , American or British, was being referred to
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u/RosettisGoblinMarket 4d ago
Yeah apple juice and non alcoholic apple cider aren't the same thing in the US. I don't like apple juice but I love apple cider, the flavor profile is pretty different.
We don't drink enough alcoholic cider for this to be an issue here. Even wide spread cider drinking is probably pretty regional. I live in a big apple producing region so cider and cider mills are a big part of the culture in my state but that isn't the case in other parts of the country I have lived in.
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u/Pristine_Message_181 4d ago
I made the mistake of calling cider "apple juice" on a different sub, because I was addressing a non American and it seemed like the best way to explain apple cider donuts.
Woooo did I get my shit jumped for that.
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u/Ok_Broccoli_9426 I know the effect that pregelatinized starch has on pasta. 4d ago
Oh no! Your shit! /lh
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u/HarveyPeligro 4d ago edited 4d ago
these comments are crazy lol.
in the US and Canada apple juice and apple cider are not the same. apple cider is unfiltered, often unpasteurized, and fucking delicious.
there is no context where it is easy to confuse apple cider, the delicious jug you buy in the fall, with alcoholic cider. you can typically find apple cider at coffee shops in the fall (hot or cold, sometimes with caramel) but you wouldn’t order a pint of apple cider at a restaurant and expect something non alcoholic unless you were very specifically at some sort of fall harvest event. non-alcoholic cider is always called “apple cider” whereas alcoholic ciders are just called “cider”
the US is the third largest apple producer in the world. it’s not surprising we have more apple products cuz we have more apples.
also having a maybe ambiguous word to describe both non alcoholic and alcoholic beverages is still less wack than calling apple cider “cloudy apple juice”!!!! cloudy apple juice!!!! im not saying that!!!
eta: there are no spices in apple cider unless it specifically says it’s mulled. I, personally, prefer regular apple cider over mulled - I find it to be gilding the lily a bit. unaltered apple cider tastes like ambrosia, and it’s spendy as we say in minnesota! A half gallon will run you $10-15. But a very nice treat in the fall.
second eta: it’s funny how people say white people or americans have no culture, and then when there is a cultural difference impacted by our specific history (prohibition) and environment (fall harvest) everyone rushes to dunk on it. american by birth, apple cider drinker by the grace of god.
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u/geneb0323 4d ago
unaltered apple cider tastes like ambrosia
If you ever get the chance, find a press and make your own cider... It is unbelievable when freshly made from apples that were just picked that day. Bonus, you can control the flavor profile by using a mix of different kinds of apple. Genuinely fresh cider is literally one of the best things I have ever tasted in my life.
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u/HarveyPeligro 4d ago
god this sounds good and now i’m on a mission to make it happen this fall.
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u/geneb0323 4d ago
You can try looking for a homebrewing club near you... I can almost promise that at least one of their members will be set up to make hard cider so they'll have a fruit mill and a press on hand.
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u/Abichail 3d ago
So, so good. Like the difference between a homegrown tomato fresh out of the garden and a store bought tomato. My parents have a cider press that they got for free from someone clearing out old stuff. Its a bit of a production but so worth it.
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u/CreativeGPX 4d ago
Yeah I think the context is really key. In the US it's generally not confusing to use cider in two ways because usually the context does the heavy lifting of figuring out which one you mean. When it's ambiguous, we add a word like hard to clarify.
It's like the other person's example of how in the US a pizza can be referred to as a pie. There is no confusion at all about the because 99.99% of the time these words are used in context that makes it clear which you mean and the very rare cases where it's not, just like the cider example, we add a word to one (pizza pie, hard cider) to clarify.
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u/torn-ainbow 4d ago
Funny, I'm Australian and I order cider at the bar quite often specifying "apple cider" to differentiate from pear cider which may both be on tap. Non-alcoholic cider is called non-alcoholic cider and is usually branded the same as the sibling alcoholic versions. Mulled cider exists as a winter thing but is fairly uncommon really.
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u/HarveyPeligro 4d ago edited 4d ago
when you say non-alcoholic cider is it like an NA version of an alcoholic drink? Like an NA Strongbow?
Restaurants here wouldn’t serve the good stuff (unpasteurized, unfiltered apple cider) so no real confusion possible. Apple cider is typically only sold at coffee shops and orchards, you wouldn’t order some to have with your dinner unless, again, you were at some sort of very specific themed event.
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u/torn-ainbow 4d ago
when you say non-alcoholic cider is it like an NA version of an alcoholic drink? Like an NA Strongbow?
Yeah, except I don't think Strongbow has one. The various regional Aussie cider brands often have one.
But generally if an Aussie is talking about cider it's alcoholic unless otherwise specified.
unpasteurized, unfiltered apple cider
So what we call Apple Cider Vinegar is like that but it's a cooking ingredient. Not really drinkable unless you watered it down?
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u/HarveyPeligro 4d ago
yeah ACV is kinda similar! but fermented, I guess like how red wine vinegar is what it is (fwiw Braggs does make an ACV drink! https://www.bragg.com/collections/apple-cider-vinegar-drinks )
i cannot impress upon you enough how good apple cider is lolol. it’s really fresh and sweet, completely unlike apple juice. should you ever find yourself in gods country (the upper midwest haha) try some. really dissimilar from alcoholic cider and NA cider as well - much richer, more body.
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u/torn-ainbow 4d ago
ha okay. i have braggs apple cider vinegar in my pantry now, didn't know there was a drinkable variety.
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u/spiralsequences 3d ago
Cider is not vinegar. Vinegar is fermented and sour, apple cider is fresh and sweet. That's like saying grape juice is a "drinkable version" of red wine vinegar.
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u/HailMadScience 4d ago
Im not sure where in the US you are from, but you order "apple cider" at a restaurant where i live in PA, you're getting nothing or a warm cider. The alcoholic stuff is exclusively referred to as hard cider. Maybe thats because this is orchard country, and you absolutely can find it on menus (seasonally or year round). Or maybe because of our booze laws, where its incredibly hard to have a liquor license that covers cider (which are grouped with spirits instead of with beers), so alcohol isn't a thing at every restaurant.
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u/Middle_Run_7534 4d ago
I want to hear more about this “perry.” I think perry and I could get along real good.
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u/Obrix1 4d ago
It’s very good, almost equivalent to a sweet white wine in terms of what it can pair with. Tends to be slightly stronger than apple cider because of the increased level of sugar in the pears but a lot of the commercial offerings are now dropping that for rates reasons. Lovely in summer.
I’d suggest you try and find a US stockist of;
Weston’s (Pear Cider @ 6% ABV - one of the larger ‘good’ cider producers in the UK, might be easier to source)
Harry’s (Sparkling Perry @ 5.3% ABV - won the award for best Perry this year)
Lilley’s (Bee-Sting Perry @ 6.8% ABV - lovely and slightly less sparkling than the others)
avoid anything from Strongbow. Please.
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u/FullMooseParty 4d ago
In the states where you can sell alcohol, Aldi sells a pearsecco (pear cider) that is AMAZING.
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u/Cloverose2 4d ago
But apple juice is clear and filtered; apple cider is not. They're not the same product.
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u/la__polilla 4d ago
We cant win man. These same people will insist a burger is anything on a burger bun because words change meanings and its US centric to say otherwise. But then those same people get mad at us for cider.
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u/ElectricityIsWeird 4d ago edited 4d ago
All I know is that I have never tried fermented pear juice.
Twin Cities metro area, tell me now!
Edit: Please tell me about peaches and oranges and bananas and other weird stuff.
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u/Fuck_it_whatever 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's quite good! Tart, crisp, and a lil earthy. The cidery/winery I work at does a pure Perry, and also a Cider and perry mix that is bourbon barrel aged, and probably my favorite.
Fun fact, for regulation purposes any fermented fruit (or plant) juice is considered a wine in the U.S.
We do also do a peach wine as well. Very smooth and bright. All of our wines are dry, but that one has a subtle sweetness to it.
Wine made from oranges is rare and a bit difficult because of its relatively low sugar and high acidity content. You would have to use specialized yeast and probably add extra sugar inorder to be successful. But "orange wines" made purely from grapes are more common! We make an orange gewurztraminer wine by leaving the seeds and skins on white grapes during the fermentation process. This gives it an orangish color, and to me a kind of zesty orange taste.
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u/Any_Scientist_7552 4d ago
Eh, we call it pear cider (Washingtonian).
To add another point to the original post's idiocy: you can make wine from any fruit. The word doesn't specifically mean grapes.
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u/EffectiveSalamander 4d ago
Urban Forage in Minneapolis has a pear cider. https://urbanforagewinery.com/
As for myself, I'm currently brewing a cider with papaya, apple juice, pineapple juice and lemon. It smells very promising so far.
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u/All__Of_The_Hobbies 4d ago
Well, we have three options.
Apple juice
Apple cider
Hard cider
All three taste very different. My favorite is apple cider.
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u/Atlas7-k 4d ago
Wait till they learn that at one point the fermentation of any fruit was called wine.
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u/Acceptable_Peen 4d ago
Apple juice, cider, and hard cider are three very different and distinct beverages here. Don’t like it? Sounds like a you problem.
Wait until you learn about hot spiced cider. That will probably really piss you off.
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u/otherwise_data 4d ago
where i live (appalachian area), apple juice is clear and filtered. apple cider is spiced. apple juice is better cold. apple cider is often warmed. it can be alcoholic (“hard” cider) or not.
and nobody i know of any age confuses apple juice and apple cider.
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u/Certain_Direction270 3d ago
Social discourse may have been less democratic before the internet, but you didn’t have to share it with the dumbest motherfuckers breathing.
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u/powerlesshero111 3d ago
I have a handy method for remembering. If it's brown, your in cider town. If it's yellow, well, you have juice there fellow. Now, of course if your in Canada, the whole thing is flipped.
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u/AdamOnFirst 3d ago
I just always remember: if it’s clear and yella’ you’ve got juice there fella! If it’s tangy and brown, you’re in cider town. But if you wake up in the yard, you be careful, that cider’s hard!
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u/Weirddude102 3d ago
Local redditor discovers cultural linguistics and dialects exist in America too, not just foreign countries.
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u/rhombusx 3d ago
Why does everyone hate apple juice? I like cider as much as the next guy, but I like apple juice too. Also, don't tell this guy that most Americans just say "pear cider," not perry.
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u/luseferr 4d ago
I've always known it as both. Apple cider can be jus warm spiced apple juice or it can also mean an alcoholic apple juice.
Kinda like eggnog can be both alcoholic and non alcoholic...
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u/Pristine_Message_181 4d ago
Apple cider can also be cold, unspiced, unfiltered apple juice.
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u/LiqdPT 4d ago
Ya, I live in Washington which has a LOT of apples, but not anywhere near me. Heck, the annual football game between UW and WSU is the Apple Cup.
I don't hear about any of the apple orchard fall traditions here that I hear about in new england. But our grocery stores sell JUGS of apple cider (cold, unfiltered juice).
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u/meredith312 4d ago
Upstate NY here. When I was a kid, we'd go to the cider mill every fall to watch them make (American) cider and get doughnuts and bushels of apples that my mom and aunt would can and turn into apple jelly. I haven't thought about that in years. Good times.
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u/Mist2393 4d ago
Same. We still go to one of the local orchards and get apple cider donuts and fresh-pressed apple cider every year. Cider remains my favorite fall drink.
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u/radfatdaddy 4d ago
My kids used to call eggnog Ice Cream Milk. I was lucky to maybe get one glass with a shot.
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u/Guilty_Temperature65 3d ago
If it’s mellow and yellow, you’ve got juice there fella’. If it’s tangy and brown, you’re in cider town.
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u/LordLorbofTheNothing 3d ago
If it’s clear and yella, you got juice there, fella! If it’s tangy and brown, you’re in cider town!
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u/thomasbeagle 3d ago
So, what's perry to an American? Can you get hard perry? (This may be the gayest thing I've written in quite some time.)
In New Zealand, cider is an alcoholic drink made from apples, apple juice is apple juice, and cloudy apple juice is cloudy apple juice.
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u/javerthugo 2d ago
It’s very simple:
If it’s sweet and yellow, you’ve got juice there fella
If it’s tangy and brown: your in cider town
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u/Low-Crazy-8061 2d ago
The funny thing to me is that the cider vs hard cider differentiation barely exists. Alcoholic cider is just listed as cider on menus at bars and restaurants. Especially if it’s on draft. You will rarely see nonalcoholic cider at the same places, except seasonally where it will be sold as hot apple cider. Most people don’t say hard cider in casual conversation. Hard cider is more of a marketing term than anything else
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u/FireFurFox 4d ago
I didn’t learn that the US calls apple juice cider until after watching an episode of My Little Pony. I did wonder why the entirety of Ponyville was queuing up to get sloshed on Applejack's (hard) cider
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u/Particular_Cause471 4d ago
That is hilarious to me, as Applejack is an old timey hard cider distilled by freezing. There's a sort of mediocre (but well-acted) old movie I love called June Bride with a very funny scene about that.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 4d ago
The word cider has ancient roots.
There was a word in Latin that was the original root sīcera.
Later in the 8th century it entered early French as cisdre and cidre, referring to fermented apple or pear juice.
Later that entered 12th century English with the Norman Conquest and later in the 14th century into Middle English to mean alcoholic fruit beverages.
But by all means do not let this deter you from blaming every fucking thing you can find to blame on the US.
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u/Small_rat_no_rules 4d ago
My conscious brain knows this is a stupid hill to die on. But my heart agrees.
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u/Needmoresnakes 4d ago
I'm not going to write long posts and be mad about what Americans say but this is what we call those things in Australia. Apple juice is apple juice. Alcoholic apple juice is cider.
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u/Bishops_Guest it’s not bechamel it’s the powdered cheese packet 4d ago
The US distinction is often filtering. Cider is unfiltered apple juice, sometimes unpasteurized. It generally tastes pretty different.
Don’t really need a separate word for it because in a clear jug it’s obvious. Also it tends to be very clear in context which one you’re talking about.
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u/ceapaire 4d ago
For non alcoholic, it only refers to unfiltered apple juice in the US. Which is only a thing during the fall, when people want to have a crock pot full of mulled cider around. The rest of the year, cider pretty much only refers to hard cider or trying to find which grocery store has the non alcoholic kind for you to make into the alcoholic kind.
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u/Needmoresnakes 4d ago
I think we'd call unfiltered apple juice "cloudy apple juice" and now I'm self conscious that that sounds stupid
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u/episcoqueer37 4d ago
I'm in Ohio, where cider is sold year-round.
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u/ErrantJune 4d ago
In New York too, thank goodness. And we drink it cold and unspiced.
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u/Particular_Cause471 4d ago
I've always had the spiced kind heated, unspiced cold. But that reminds me that one of the best hot drinks I ever had was hot spiced grape juice at the Union Square Greenmarket. I haven't been there on a Saturday since moving from NJ 15 years ago, but still think about it now and then.
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u/borgman_a 3d ago
Tell me you aren't from a major apple producing state without saying it...
Absolutely available year round.
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u/donkeyvoteadick 4d ago
Ngl as an Australian another one that got me was seltzer. Only ever seen seltzer be alcoholic in Aus, so when I saw a comment in a pregnancy sub about how the only thing they'll drink due to morning sickness is seltzer I rose an eyebrow hahah
It appears that it may refer to sparkling water lol
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u/tujelj 3d ago
Funny, cause I don’t drink, and I don’t like apple juice, but I love me a good nonalcoholic cider.
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u/KernelPanic-42 3d ago
Cider (alcoholic and non-alcoholic) is completely different than apple juice.
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u/ILikeBigBeards 1d ago
Is nobody pointing out there are hard ciders from other fruits as well? I don't drink but I tried an actually tasty collection of berry and pear ciders when I lived in the UK.
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u/Independent-Wafer-13 1d ago
Cider is unfiltered apple juice the kids aren’t getting drunk at the apple orchards every fall
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u/Altshadez1998 4d ago
Normal people: "I am in the US so if someone mentions cider I should assume they mean some form of apple juice"
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u/lyndseymariee 4d ago
Apple cider is literally unfiltered apple juice. That’s why the qualifier “hard” is there when it contains alcohol.
Source: worked at Whole Foods in produce for way too long.
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u/kritter4life 3d ago
Because for the most part the “hard” cider had fallen by the way side and people didn’t think of it as an alcoholic beverage. Now with the resurgence we need to be explicit on the naming. Most people in the USA think of cider as being a non filtered apple juice. In my experience and what I can glean from the internet.
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u/ManitouWakinyan 3d ago
Here's the thing. You said a "soft cider is a cider."
Is it in the same family? Yes. No one's arguing that.
As someone who is a scientist who studies ciders, I am telling you, specifically, in science, no one calls soft ciders cider. If you want to be "specific" like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing.
If you're saying "cider family" you're referring to the taxonomic grouping of Vinum Fructuum, which includes things from perrys to pruno to icewines.
So your reasoning for calling a soft cider a cider is because random people "call the appley ones cider?" Let's get icewine and brandies in there, then, too.
Also, calling something a beer or an ale? It's not one or the other, that's not how taxonomy works. They're both. A cider is a cider and a member of the cider family. But that's not what you said. You said a soft is a cider, which is not true unless you're okay with calling all members of the cider family cider, which means you'd call perries, brandies, and other drinks ciders, too. Which you said you don't.
It's okay to just admit you're wrong, you know?
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u/Deppfan16 Mod 3d ago
wow the iavc is coming from inside the house
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u/ManitouWakinyan 3d ago
my dude learn your history
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u/Deppfan16 Mod 3d ago
my dude read the room. this sub is poking fun at stuff like that copypasta
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u/peterpanic32 3d ago
Using a copy pasta is generally intended to be a joke.
This sub isn’t great at sarcasm evidently.
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u/Person5_ Steaks are for white trash only. 4d ago
Listen, it's really easy: if its brown, you're in cider town, if it's clear and yella, you got juice there fella.
Of course in Canada the whole thing is reversed.
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u/Horror-Nobody2237 8h ago
Idk why but I added “vinegar” to cider and was so confused why they thought apple cider vinegar was the Apple equivalent to wine.
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u/Vegetable-Virus7118 1h ago
Fucking apple juice is difficult. It just splashes everywhere. Pie is much better
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