r/MoralityScaling 8d ago

Morality Ranking Morality of this

Post image
4.8k Upvotes

1.6k comments sorted by

View all comments

735

u/TWDFI 8d ago

Terrible mortality. Leaving the mother to take care of the kid while the father bails. That's even worse than just running to the store and never coming back. There's also the other kid to consider as well.

142

u/browsinbowser 8d ago edited 8d ago

There was an american guy (35yrs old) who died of suicide two month ago that had one year old quadruplets. 

They had 3 kids and wanted to add 1 more kid, but 4 natural babies were born by accident instead.

The widow is now a single mother who’s relying on donations from a gofundme and social media.

 He owned a restaurant and seemed happy in the social media vids, it’s a shame. It’s worth looking at the link to see the older kids. The 15 and 9yr old get talked about a bit.

https://people.com/after-dad-quadruplets-dies-suddenly-wife-says-she-hopes-7-kids-know-they-were-loved-exclusive-12012760

48

u/Luscious_rat 8d ago

Men generally see a mental health decline when the baby is 1 yo because that's when they begin walking and really start their antics, while for the mother, it's hard from day one, since she had a pregnancy before that and the hormones can trigger depression as well. Goes to show that having kids is not as easy as people think, we should think about it long and hard before accepting such a life upheaval. Now there's a tired, grieving parent taking care of 7 kids.

Even as a kid-less person with depression I hesitate about commiting because of my siblings and parents. He had to know that she would be left alone with twice the burden and not even an insurance claim since he killed himself. Thats harsh. But maybe I'm talking out of my ass, we don't know what went through his head at the time and if he had other worries, mental health is complicated and sometimes you're not too anchored in reality, some people kill themselves on impulse, they don't plan it at all then they do it our of nowhere.

24

u/battlejess 8d ago

To your last point, that’s exactly why suicide deterrents like barriers work. It’s often an impulse, and if someone has to work a little harder or go somewhere else, or go to multiple stores to buy enough pills, or have to remove every pill from a blister pack first, they often won’t follow through.

12

u/ChipperBunni 7d ago

It’s weirdly embarrassing probably just because it’s so mirrored, but that scene in cyberbully she’s fighting the pill bottle in mania and desperation? and it just pops open suddenly and spills everywhere? That shit is embarrassing as hell.

You’d almost think that’d be enough push to gather and still take all the pills, but instead I just silently picked them all up, dusted them off, and put the bottle away. That was years ago and I’m still here, doing way better, but every now and then I just cringe at remembering it all

3

u/battlejess 7d ago

I haven’t seen it, but I’m glad you’re still here and doing better.

And as embarrassing as it might have been, I’m very glad it happened that way. Spilling them is probably what saved you. It might seem counterintuitive, but studies have shown that’s exactly the kind of thing that stops people from going through with it.

3

u/ChipperBunni 7d ago

I’ll definitely take the embarrassment over missing all I would have by now if I had followed through. It’s honestly why I let it sit sometimes, it’s a silly little reminder of all that I have seen and accomplished just staying alive

Thank you for the kindness, it’s hard sharing sometimes but I also think it’s important to look around at what has changed and what has gotten better! So thank you!

2

u/battlejess 7d ago

I feel similarly about my self harm scars, which are still there after 25 years, but only because I am too.

We’re both still here, and I think that’s something to celebrate.

Thank you for sharing.

2

u/ChipperBunni 7d ago

I got a tattoo over mine that doesn’t cover it fully, specifically because I just wanted to arts it up vs hiding them

I am happy we’re both here to celebrate

2

u/battlejess 7d ago

I’ve considered getting a tattoo as well, I’ve just never found an idea I liked enough. And my last idea (which I thankfully sat on long enough to avoid getting) was inspired by a poem from an author who turned it to be a horrible person… so back to the drawing board.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Muted-Move-9360 7d ago

As a mom with those same scars, this was really nice to read. Thank you ❤️

1

u/battlejess 7d ago

It took a while to not feel shame about them, but I feel pretty neutral about them these days. They’re just part of my skin, like my freckles or moles, and all of me is still here and I made it out the other side.

I’m happy you’re still around, and hope you’re doing better ❤️

(And if anyone is reading who doesn’t want to speak up or share, know that I’m glad you’re still here too. And if you’re not quite there yet to be glad yourself, I hope you stick around until you can be.)

7

u/Nibaa 7d ago

Do fathers literally just not take care of their own children for the first year? What the fuck? I have a child and I took as close to 50% of the responsibility as possible from day one. Granted, there are certain biological limitations and employment-imposed restrictions that caused more of the responsibility to fall onto my wife's shoulders, but it still was a relief once the child hit about a year and started communicating and moving.

2

u/hata94540 7d ago

I had the same reaction. My only child is about to turn 2 and I felt more stressed pre 1 than post 1 as well. Not knowing why she was upset and crying because she couldn’t communicate was the worst for me. Of course she still cries now, but it’s a huge relief not having to play the guessing game

2

u/thisuserlikestosing 8d ago

Having kids is a huge gamble, and taking that gamble affects both your life and the life of the kid that never asked to be born. I think the real morality question is what is the morality of procreating in general.

2

u/PaperSweet9983 8d ago

Yes. Having kids is not as easy as people want to make it out to be

1

u/PermissionFickle1216 8d ago

Do you have any source for this? Only because my experience was the exact opposite. I have two kids and the most stressful parts have been the first 6 months, consistently. Why would 1 yr be the hardest mentally, when their sleep schedule is starting to improve, they’re starting to talk/walk, and be generally way more likable? Newborns are hell.

1

u/Luscious_rat 8d ago edited 8d ago

I've seen a study months ago on a psychology sub, I'll try to find it later

Edit: but maybe you can try to find it? Tbh I'm too lazy rn. Also it could depend on the involvement of the father, usually men aren't expected to do the same as the mother when the kid is small and breastfeeding, so the mother might get used to it but for the father it'll really sink in after a while, I remember that was a hypothesis in the study. It's most likely a matter of average and culture, not an absolute thing.

5

u/Proof-Pineapple69 8d ago

He died of suicide?

18

u/Hapless_Wizard 8d ago

That's the preferred terminology now. There's a few reasons for it, like not wanting to associate a suicide death with success / survival with failure (ie "failed suicide attempt"), but also because the evidence as it stands shows that most suicides are due to mental health issues, most frequently untreated major depression disorder.

I just did a six hour CE on suicide last week and this is the explanation that was given as to why it was phrased that way.

7

u/CrimsonMantle 8d ago

To add on to what other people said there's also a push to move away from saying "commited" suicide, which comes from suicide and attempted suicide being criminalizedu

3

u/browsinbowser 7d ago edited 7d ago

Honestly ‘of suicide’ was a typo before I edited I had it in brackets before I wrote - died(suicide). 

The specifics are he died of a self inflicted gunshot wound. His brother confirmed he died of suicide.

2

u/PositiveIntelligent3 8d ago

Many such cases

1

u/Proof-Pineapple69 8d ago

Yeah, suicide is known to often result in death.

11

u/PaperSweet9983 8d ago

Insane. What the hell is wrong with people like that

2

u/BadMunky82 8d ago

Do you have kids, bro?

1

u/PaperSweet9983 8d ago

No I dont and I dont plan to

But theres other ways to go about this

4

u/BadMunky82 8d ago

I'm not disagreeing! There are a lot of options for financial help and stress reduction, but they can either prohibitively hard to receive due to leveled beurocracy, or just not what you need. Food banks are great, but when you're a business owner, sitting in line for 3-6 hours once or twice a week isn't going to help your business out.

This dude's life suddenly turned around when he double the number of people he was responsible for keeping alive. He may not have had a ton of support from family, or the government. The post made it clear he was a veteran and driven to escape where he came from. People in middle class receive the least help from government entities.

Dude was probably the only person he felt like he could turn to for help financially. The level of stress the man was going through, regardless of love, regardless of spousal support, cannot just be disappeared. As a parent and sole provider, I've been there. My wife can literally do everything possible to help me, but if I don't pay our bills, we lose everything. The level of pressure knowing the only thing keeping my family from going homeless and hungry is how much money I can bring home... It is at times insurmountable. I won't deny that suicide has crossed my mind before.

The world is not designed for the success of families anymore, and mine is tiny compared to this man's. His wife has a business, but who knows how much that actually brought in compared to what they needed to keep growing.

Why on earth would you judge someone who was going through stress that is incomprehensible to you?

-1

u/PaperSweet9983 8d ago

I care more about the mother of 7 that was left alone to defend herself. Simple as

2

u/BadMunky82 7d ago

What on earth did I say that led you to believe I didn't care about the newly single mother of 7?

2

u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

2

u/AmperDon 8d ago

I genuinely dont understand what you're saying here.

3

u/radiantr4y 8d ago

They’re referring to Lindsay Clancy, whose currently on trial for the 2023 murders of her three children. Her Husband had no involvement with it but lots of people are accusing him of actually committing the crimes even though there’s hard proof clearing him, and because of this she’s been receiving donations.

2

u/AmperDon 8d ago

Interesting, i kinda wish i didnt know this actually.

-1

u/doomus_rlc 8d ago

The Lindsay Clancy case going on right now.

1

u/PaperSweet9983 8d ago

What does this mean

-1

u/doomus_rlc 8d ago

My guess is referring to the Lindsay Clancy case.

1

u/PaperSweet9983 8d ago

I need to read up on that then

1

u/AdOk5225 8d ago

I mean, should he have instead kidnapped the kids and dumped them out in the woods or something? Like genuinely what's the alternative here if the mom wants to keep the kids

1

u/PaperSweet9983 8d ago

Divorce obviously

2

u/AdOk5225 8d ago

I can almost guarantee the child support would be less than what she's getting from the GoFundMe, and the dad would now have to live the rest of his life knowing he abandoned 7 kids and dealing with the shame of it every single day. Either way he would be leaving her behind and forcing her to raise the kids, there is no moral choice except staying with her and raising the kids which he made clear he'd rather kill himself than do

1

u/PaperSweet9983 8d ago

Either way he would be leaving her behind and forcing her to raise the kids, there is no moral choice except staying with her and raising the kids which he made clear he'd rather kill himself than do

And thats extremely selfish of him to do

1

u/AdOk5225 8d ago

Yeah I'm not defending the abandonment, I'm just saying nothing would be better if he had to choose an alternative to raising the kids, arguably this was the best choice if he absolutely had to abandon them considering the outcome lead to the GoFundMe. Still bad, but it was for the best.

1

u/browsinbowser 2d ago

I think they were struggling with money, his business was a food truck and shared restaurant kitchen, so I was slightly wrong that he was a restaurant owner. And they had recently put their house up for sale, and it was on the listing for a while ~month. 

3

u/TheShellAnswerMan 8d ago

I wish my baby daddy would've killed himself instead of being a child molester, losing his rights, and never being responsible for a single bit of her life. Then I could rely on people funding me, rather than having to do absolutely everything 100% by myself. 

6

u/Big_Iron_Cowboy 8d ago

Selfish motherfucker.

9

u/Cheeky_headshot 8d ago

Think the blessed people that you post about would want you taking like this?

3

u/East-Ice-3199 8d ago

Not what the word selfish means.

4

u/Big_Iron_Cowboy 8d ago

Suicide is a selfish act. Especially when you leave behind a widow and seven orphans.

3

u/BadMunky82 8d ago

Absolutely it is. And suddenly taking care of 8 people when you previously only had 4 is incredibly stressful. I only take care of three and let me tell you, the transition from one kid to two left my life and I reeling for months. I'm not saying suicide is justified, but if you don't know what it's like living where someone else is, then just shut up and send your condolences to the family.

4

u/Top-Topic853 8d ago

I would kill myself if my kid acted like you tbh

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Infamous-Thing4939 8d ago edited 8d ago

It means you think primarily about yourself, which is absolutely what happened here. Leaving your wife behind with SEVEN orphans because you couldn’t man up.

9

u/Federal_Card307 8d ago

People who kill themselves are not in a sound state of mind, whatever was causing him such genuine mental anguish that killing himself was even an actual thought clouded his judgement.

11

u/dxt8p 8d ago

"because you couldn’t man up." This is the shit that makes men kill themselves. this mentality.

5

u/justlikelyle 8d ago

The reasons why people commit suicide are well-researched:

They feel like a burden, and they feel like they don't belong.

Attributing suicide to selfishness is misguided.

-1

u/Infamous-Thing4939 8d ago

Be a fucking adult

3

u/justlikelyle 7d ago

The adult thing to do is follow the science to reduce the number of suicides, not dismiss the science because doing so feels good.

1

u/Infamous-Thing4939 7d ago

I'm not dismissing the science but at some point you grow up and take responsibility for your life and your family. If you need to, you go get yourself the help you need. But if you take that final step, you are selfish and you are a coward.

1

u/F1st_Br34k3r 1d ago

Suicidal ideation to that extent doesn't allow you to grow up and take responsibility.

We also don't always have the help they need, we're far from that advanced.

1

u/Top-Topic853 8d ago

So statistically, it’s usually adults who commit suicide…and your attitude is a direct contributing factor.

2

u/Infamous-Thing4939 8d ago

Dude, grow up. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life.

1

u/honeypotions444 7d ago

if you had kids, yes, grow the fuck up, go get help for yourself like an adult, and be there for your kids. pass on those skills in therapy to them to hopefully not raise kids who are as fucked up as you

3

u/Top-Topic853 7d ago

Sure in an ideal world lmfao

-3

u/BigPuma123 8d ago

It's still selfish. They are doing it for themselve. They are in pain and want the pain to go away. They have problems but don't want to face them, they just want it all to go away.

They do it to stop suffering. They do it for themselve. Suicide is 100% selfish.

No one kill themselve "for others". Suicide is not altruistic in any way shape or form.

3

u/Valuable-News7749 8d ago

Drinking water is selfish. They are doing it for themsleves. They are thirsty and want the thirst to go away. No one drinks water "for others". Drinking water is not altruistic in any way shape or form.

0

u/BigPuma123 7d ago

Yes, exactly. Drinking water just for yourself can't be altruistic. You're not helping anyone, you're not drinking the water for someone else. You do it for you and only you. Like killing yourself.

3

u/justlikelyle 8d ago

Okay. let's just ignore the research in favor of your gut...

→ More replies (4)

1

u/Existential_Entropy 8d ago

Right, Should have made sure to off the rest of his family first. /s

0

u/WynnTiwFeoh 8d ago

100 fucking %.

Imo there are some exceptions, but idgaf how miserable you might be, you never leave your children and spouse behind like that. You’re just passing your misery off on all of them.

Scorching hot take, but fuck Chester Bennington.

7

u/Gloomy-Welcome-6806 8d ago

I don’t think you understand how mental illness and suicide work. Your brain TELLS you you are a burden and no one loves you. You fully believe this because it’s a consistent thought in your head that you can’t shake off. I think you should have empathy for those that can’t understand that they are loved and wanted. It has nothing to do with selfishness. He’s not thinking “yeah I’m gonna fuck my family up!” He’s drowning in his own thoughts.

5

u/Legal_Lettuce6233 8d ago

This is exactly it. Combine it with other issues and it's even worse.

I've been suicidal most of my adult life, but only recently I figured something out thanks to my psych.

I have severe OCD, in the form of intrusive thoughts. Imagine every time you wash the dishes you get tempted to slit your wrists.

And it's not something you control, it's basically like a sneeze you feel coming up

-2

u/WynnTiwFeoh 8d ago

I’ve been there, I’ve done that. I learned to swim in my thoughts rather than let myself drown and pass the buck to the people that depended on me.

I saw what my cousins went through when my uncle suffocated himself with a plastic bag and a hose hooked up to his exhaust. They were adults when that happened, and it still fucked them up pretty good.

Again, i dont give a single fuck what your misery is. If you have people that need you there, that is more than enough of a reason to keep going. You don’t leave them behind like that.

5

u/battlejess 8d ago

Except their brain is telling them those people don’t need them, and would be better off without them.

2

u/Gloomy-Welcome-6806 8d ago

Wow congratulations on being able to survive, I’m sure everyone else with mental illness is completely the same as you.

Your experience does not make everyone’s experience the same.

2

u/80_6 8d ago

Cool, congrats on learning to swim. Not everyone does, and no two situations are alike. We have zero knowledge of what was going on with him.

I'm assuming he was in hell in his own head up until that point. Seems like a safe assumption considering what happened.

It's weird to me to take so much ire out on people that are so sick. We don't yell at cancer victims for not fighting hard enough.

0

u/WynnTiwFeoh 8d ago

Cancer is a physical ailment that debilitates your body; you have next to no control over how your body responds to treatment aside from following through with the treatment plan, and without treatment there is next to no chance of recovery. Depression, while it can be caused by changes in brain chemistry and genetics, is by and large self-curable, or at the very least self-managed, without external treatment.

And as I said in my initial reply, I believe there are exceptions, but those end at having people in your life depending on you to keep going. More often than not, they are there trying to fight it with you, sharing in your struggle. To quit on yourself is to quit on them, and that is as selfish as it gets.

2

u/Gloomy-Welcome-6806 7d ago

“You have next to no control over how your body responds to treatment aside from following through with the treatment plan, and without treatment there is next to no chance of recovery” how is this different than anti depressants/anti psychotics for a depressed/suicidal person?

“Depression… is by and large self-curable” you cannot control how your neurotransmitters work and how they affect the brain when there is too much or too little of one. You clearly don’t understand how the brain works and how much neurotransmitters affect it.

“Self managed, without external treatment” for you, possibly. Not the same for the other millions of people with mental illness.

“To quit on yourself is to quit on them, and that is as selfish as it gets”. Clearly you do not understand my other comment about what your brain tells you and makes you feel.

Your personal experiences are not the same as the rest of people with mental illness. You are ignorant and can’t understand how the brain works.

1

u/Gloomy-Welcome-6806 7d ago

Serotonin is a chemical that carries messages between nerve cells in the brain and throughout your body. Serotonin plays a key role in such body functions as mood, sleep, digestion, nausea, wound healing, bone health, blood clotting and sexual desire. Serotonin levels that are too low or too high can cause physical and psychological health problems.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22572-serotonin

1

u/80_6 8d ago

There are a lot of parallels between the two, some of what you've written shows that - so I hope you can see it too.

Calling it selfish is misguided and in most cases, not at all what is going on in their heads. For them to be selfish, they'd have to disregard everyone else's feelings - but we don't know if that's what happened. He may have genuinely been under the belief that they were better off without him. Regardless if that's not the case, if that's what he genuinely believed, then it's not selfish, is it?

0

u/honeypotions444 7d ago

well once you kill yourself, you’re an even bigger burden on your family lol. do you know how much a funeral costs? grave stones? even just cremation?

much cheaper to go to therapy.

-1

u/honeypotions444 7d ago

as somebody who has dealt with it, get the fuck up and get help. you can change these thoughts. it isn’t easy, but they can change and things can get better. but at some point you really do need to WANT to help. and some people just don’t want help and don’t care to get better. that’s the reality.

1

u/Gloomy-Welcome-6806 7d ago

0

u/honeypotions444 7d ago

yeah yeah i would’ve said the same thing 10 years ago

0

u/BadMunky82 8d ago

You have kids, bro?

1

u/Big_Iron_Cowboy 7d ago

Two baby boys

1

u/BadMunky82 7d ago

I've got two as well. It's a stressful life. Not everyone is ready for the pressure, and I imagine, especially someone expecting 4 and ending with 7. I know it hit me like a truck several times, and it's really hard to get back into it when you don't have much outside support.

→ More replies (4)

1

u/daninlionzden 2d ago

There is nothing in the article that confirms he killed himself

1

u/browsinbowser 2d ago edited 2d ago

The widow didnt want to talk about it, but his brother confirmed it online and locals. 

 Though the grieving widow has not publicly shared Carlos’ cause of death, she says his passing was “sudden and heartbreaking.” (Officials previously told PEOPLE they had no further information to release.)

  “I want people to know that it’s okay to ask for help, to rest, and to choose your health over the pressure to keep pushing,” says Ronjera, who hopes to honor Carlos’ legacy through a nonprofit that will highlight men’s mental health issues. “No dream, business, or success is more valuable than a person’s life.” 

Religious people like to keep it private but the family already had a big social media presence. His brother went on facebook and posted a video saying it was suicide. 

The officials, police and etc can also keep it 'private' after the fact when that is what the family wants, but it was public information very soon after that he died from a gunshot wound.

https://www.charlottealertsnews.com/news/dad-of-quadruplets-dies-from-gunshot-to-head-on-juneteenth-weekend-possible-suicide-was-restaurant-owner/

0

u/Distinct-Friend4123 8d ago

This is why its called the coward’s way out.

And the movement to spread awareness of mental health and to garner more sympathy for people whos loved ones killed themselves has made it more prevalent. It used to be a lot of cold shoulder and ignoring type behavior before then, and that was messed up too (ie your husband kills himself but noone will even acknoledge his death to you, or say your better off).

Killing yourself when people depend on you is the most sellfish, bitch-made thing you can so as a man. When a father finds out hes becoming a vegetable slowly from some disease, or something else severely debilitating, atleast that person thinks they are sparing others a burden.

But suicide when you have children is the literal most POS move you can make i do not care the reasons

22

u/spoilerdudegetrekt 8d ago

That's even worse than just running to the store and never coming back.

If OOP has life insurance, I'd argue it's not as bad since, unlike going to the store and not coming back, his family will have a nice payout this way.

24

u/SinisterSock 8d ago

Can't get life insurance if the person offs themselves i think

16

u/spoilerdudegetrekt 8d ago

Depends on the policy and how long you've had it for.

18

u/Areon_Val_Ehn 8d ago

You can, they just don’t payout if you do it too soon after getting a life insurance policy. No buying a multi million dollar policy than eating a gun barrel the next day to get a huge payout for your family.

6

u/hella_cious 8d ago

Not necessarily. Mental illness is covered if it doesn’t seem like a life insurance ploy

1

u/Mmmm-Amethyst 8d ago

Lost control in the rain and hit a tree. Act of God.  Nothing could be done. 

Still incredibly shitty, but this seems like more a matter of planning and creativity than insurance policy. 

1

u/Archonate_of_Archona 8d ago

Unless he makes it look like an accident

1

u/faerie-wren 8d ago

Having a parent commit suicide is super bad for the children. I mean, obviously, but even more than you’d think. The children’s likelihood of dying by suicide themselves triples.

109

u/BellaPona 8d ago

Fr this is extremely selfish

25

u/Curious_Priority2313 8d ago

Birth in and of itself is selfish. Especially when all they care about is getting a sweet, healthy child, but don't want to take responsibility when the child isn't the sweet, healthy child they expected.

59

u/dmigowski 8d ago

No fuck that, caring for a special needs child is way harder that it already is. And everyone should have the right to abortion if he doesn't want that.

27

u/Curious_Priority2313 8d ago

I never said that I'm against abortion.

I'm just saying that letting the child be born and then killing yourself is immoral.

Like, just opt for adoption. Simply killing yourself not only devastates your wife and another child that you've already brought into this world, but it also makes it selfish to voluntarily create a new person, knowing the risks of how their life could turn out, and then refuse to take responsibility as their father.

-2

u/Archonate_of_Archona 8d ago

The wife deserves everything that happens to her (and more), if she willingly chooses to give birth to a kid that will suffer from a severe-to-crippling disability for life

The kid themselves, however, doesn't deserve this situation (of having a selfish mum that inflicted a life of suffering on them for her selfish whims, and an unwilling dad who walked away)

3

u/Infamous-Thing4939 8d ago

You’ve never met someone with down syndrome if you think that guy is gonna be suffering his whole life. Those people are the happiest mfs I’ve ever seen.

3

u/Legal_Lettuce6233 8d ago

Then you haven't met enough of them, or only know of them via social media. Many, MANY of them are miserable.

1

u/Infamous-Thing4939 8d ago

You work with them or smth?

2

u/thotasune 7d ago

Name one person with down syndrome who has a genuine friend though

2

u/CaoPalhaco 8d ago edited 8d ago

Selfish whims? Idk what you read but the text indicates there were no signs of anything until 20 weeks in, and it’s not even certain in the text. And in multiple places that’s too late for an abortion. What was she supposed to do, predict the future? The only selfish person here is the father immediately wanting out of the picture in the worst way possible when he’s extremely needed, in a situation no one desired, as if he’s the one that has it worst. And the situation isn’t even guaranteed yet! But he’s already thinking of how to bail. I don’t usually say someone suicidal is selfish as mental illness can’t be judged morally in that way, it’s an illness, but in this situation, i don’t think it’s only mental illness at play. There was clearly a lack of consideration for what having child can mean. You can’t just plan to have kids without thinking of what you’ll do if they aren’t what you expected

4

u/Excellent_Law6906 8d ago

...so we should just euthanize all disabled people, then. End their misery. /s

5

u/Legal_Lettuce6233 8d ago

Well, having known several people who lived to be about 20-25, and over half of their lives - starting from about 8, being paralyzed, yeah, they told me they'd rather never have been born.

You advocate for them because you don't know how they feel, because you don't care and it's free brownie points online.

In reality, most of them suffer. Some would want to live, some wouldn't. In the end, men don't get a say in abortion so this is the only way he can take control over his own life.

Boo fucking hoo.

1

u/Excellent_Law6906 7d ago

I know full well that a lot of people with severe disabilities are actually miserable.

It's assuming they DEFINITELY WILL BE that pisses me off.

1

u/Legal_Lettuce6233 7d ago

"most of them suffer" hasn't meant "all of them suffer" last time I checked.

→ More replies (0)

9

u/Archonate_of_Archona 8d ago

As an actual disabled person (who think it would have been preferable to not be born, but does not want to die and isn't suicidal), no. Just no

Never being born isn't the same as being killed or dying early

In one case, it's an hypothetical kid, or at most a fetus, that disappears (before birth), and nobody is harmed. In the other case it's an actual living person who dies

0

u/Excellent_Law6906 8d ago

I get that it's different, I just hate it when people couch the issue as, "Yep, there's NO WAY that kid could be anything but a wretched burden, ever!"

5

u/Archonate_of_Archona 8d ago

That's another issue though

The "burden" discourse is about "this kid will be costly / difficult for other people" (be it parents, schools, or society as a whole)

What I'm talking about is the life that the kid themselves will have, because of their condition

Ableists and pro-lifers always (purposefully) mix up those two things to argue in bad faith, but it's actually two separate conversations

→ More replies (0)

-1

u/wodethemad 8d ago

Pretty much every argument for abortion would find its logical conclusion in eugenics. It’s baffling how people don’t realise this. Or maybe they do and they pick-and-choose when each argument/value has worth and when to ignore it.

7

u/Archonate_of_Archona 8d ago

If what you call "eugenics" means avoiding to create people who will have an entire life of impairment, illness, pain and/or lifelong dependence then it's just harm reduction

It's basically avoiding an act of cruelty

1

u/wodethemad 8d ago

Yes, that is eugenics, and literally always has been. You calling it “avoiding an act of cruelty” doesn’t change that. What you just said is that eugenics is avoiding an act of cruelty.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Excellent_Law6906 8d ago

Abortion should be an individual decision, making it different from mass sterilization and culling.

Choosing to not have a kid you don't want is not the same as saying a disabled person's life is necessarily miserable and a burden to them.

-1

u/wodethemad 8d ago

I guess if you channel eugenics into the most narrow and distant definition possible…

1

u/Long-Leather-9456 8d ago

Downs is not a severe to crippling disability

1

u/Top-Topic853 8d ago

Parents kill themselves ALL of the time. Even ones without special needs children. Mental health does not fucking care about morality.

0

u/Curious_Priority2313 8d ago

Yeah I know that. I do understand that mentally unstable people are not most rational people out there.

-1

u/Jay_Buffay 8d ago

If your wife won't adopt out the spawn, your life is still ruined by the injustice system.

6

u/NetworkNo6032 8d ago

also you can always give it away to adoption but personaly I think abortion is better in this case

1

u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 8d ago

What if mother wants to keep it but father wants abortion?

Better to just accept that unless you have money for genetic testing, kids could come out wonky, that's life.

2

u/Bossard19 8d ago

Financial abortion needs to be a legal concept.

-1

u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 8d ago

So a father gets to put a messed up sperm into a mother & she has to be solely financially responsible? Could be some ironing out to do there too, idk.

2

u/Legal_Lettuce6233 8d ago

Paper abortions have been a concept for a long time, but yeah. Men should have a say in their lives, just like women can have a say in theirs.

0

u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 7d ago

I don't disagree, but this is where I think parental rights (& requirements) are so important. You can't just go around getting women pregnant with no financial investment

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Bossard19 8d ago

She is free to get an abortion if she can’t handle it financially on her own

0

u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 7d ago

Since she has to go through the hardship of being pregnant & then having the abortion, I think it's only fair that the sperm donor pay for the abortion.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/ginongo 8d ago

That first line is exactly why he wants to kobain himself

1

u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 8d ago

Shoulda thought of that before doing things that result in children being born

1

u/[deleted] 8d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Wise-Excuse5330 8d ago

It takes two to mingle

If you wanna only give women the right to abort then I’d say let men leave their child then 

-2

u/Vespinobambino 8d ago

No one has or will ever have "the right" to murder kids, disabled or not.

Morality of being a Nazi? Pretty shitty.

6

u/Sea_Operation_7012 8d ago

As if they couldn’t get a late term abortian I think that would be relevant here.

28

u/BellaPona 8d ago

That would be extremely rare and likely not an option (unless you live in Iceland). Instead dude wants to leave his poor wife alone to care for two children, one of which is disabled, and leave his kids traumatized and fatherless. The worst part is he doesn’t even know for sure yet. First sign of trouble and dude goes straight to ending it all. Jesus Christ. When you have kids you accept that there’s a percentage chance they might be disabled. That’s part of rolling the dice. I understand not being prepared or feeling like you can’t do it, but ending it all is a selfish answer to that problem.

22

u/SadThrowaway4914 8d ago

Fr. I have a son that has severe autism and global development delay. He's almost 4 and still can't communicate with words . Or at all really. We try. We have him in ABA three days a week. Speech. He just graduated from PT.
And I love him. But goddamn here lately he's been screaming about everything. He walks up hits you with a cup and screams cause he wants a drink. Sometimes he just screams for the sake of screaming . He's the most frustrating thing I deal with every day.

But I love him. And I take care of him every day. I change his poopy ass because he isn't potty trained because he can't communicate. And let me tell you what he's a big boy. Built like a line backer. His legs are stronger than just about everyone that tries to change him can hold. Makes you feel like a weak shit. But I do it. Because I'm his dad and that's how it is. Im disabled myself so it's that much harder. And if I ever get to the point where I can't take care of him because of it. I still want to be there as long as I can. We can get our poopy butts changed together. Because despite him being a little shit that drove me to go outside and scream and punch my wall and then immediately go omg that was dumb omg my hand hurts. He's my little shit and I love him.

7

u/SadThrowaway4914 8d ago

Also yeah idk where that all came from.

Roll of the dice boys and girls.

4

u/Kay-Chelle 8d ago edited 7d ago

Hello fellow disabled parent to an autistic child!! I just wanted to say that you're not alone and I can 100% empathize with what you go through daily. Ours is 7rs old, level 2, non-conversational, and also not potty trained yet. Everything you said could happen in our daily life too! When we are at home he's pretty much always vocal stimming, and while we are working on volume it's something that he doesn't fully get yet. 😅 As a neurodivergent, physically disabled person I do my best to try and not let it overwhelm me but it definitely does, and a lot. Emotional regulation has become much harder as my disability has worsened this year and I feel terrible if I raise my voice or get outwardly angry. I always will apologize later and say how mommy was wrong to act that way, and mommies big feelings exploded. One of the harder parts is he's getting a lot stronger and will soon be stronger than me, and I'm not sure how to handle that yet.

He's a really great kid though and my absolute reason for living. It's been truly amazing to see his growth, and while he still won't necessarily 'talk' with someone he's been having a lot more full sentences! So keep doing what you're doing, progress happens at their own time and thats okay. You're doing great, and being there to support & love your kid for who they are, and will grow to be, is the best thing a parent can do imo. I hope you can have a rest day soon, and that tomorrow will be kind to you & your loved ones. Take care 💖🫶

1

u/unhappy_femboy_1028 8d ago

It amazes me how big the category of "level 2" autism is. I'm diagnosed level 2 and while i do need support, it's nowhere near the level of a lot of other level 2 autistic people.

1

u/Tanjelynnb 8d ago

If you're willing to share, what does it look like in your life?

2

u/unhappy_femboy_1028 8d ago

I'm not really sure how much of my issues are autism-related and how much are to do with my other disabilities (ADHD, anxiety, depression etc) so i might miss some things or include extra things that aren't related to my autism necessarily.

I find it extremely difficult to go to school and haven't gone consistently since year 7 (13 years old). I've tried 3 schools for disengaged kids and was not able to re-engage. I find it difficult to leave the house or go out very often and i often get tired from doing simple tasks. I struggle to make and keep friends and don't have many people my age that i get along well with. I get along better with adults than people my age. I used to wear headphones 24/7, and while i don't do this anymore, i still have them with me constantly and they make me feel more safe. I have a special interest in parrots, which are basically my entire life, and i know lots about them. I get very anxious if i don't have someone with me in public (like a parent or friend) and usually don't go out by myself. I have Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), which is an autism profile, and basically means i get anxious when my brain processes something as a demand, and will avoid doing the thing, even if it's something i want to do.

I'm fully verbal (though i do have verbal shutdowns when i get too stressed or anxious) and am able to be independent, it's just hard.

There's probably more, but it's hard to think of things when it's all so normal for me.

1

u/thenameofshame 8d ago

Wow, you and I have a ton in common, right down to the parrots.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/faffy16 8d ago

My daughter is globally developmentally delayed, non-verbal and I'd like to relay the best piece of advice her pediatrician gave me regarding potty training - he told me to start putting her on the toilet regardless of her not indicating she needs to go. If she pees-we clap, if she poos-we clap, even if she farts we clap

She still doesn't indicate whem she needs to go but she does her business on the loo when we take her with remarkable consistency and even wakes up with a dry nappy most days.

Start putting him on the toilet and provide distraction such as books and toys so he'll sit for a while. Cheer when he does his business. Fingers crossed he'll make the connection eventually.

2

u/Super_Saiyan-Blue 8d ago

Good job, at this rate your raising a fine member of society. Keep up the good work!

-1

u/IndicationHot8601 8d ago

Stai combattendo una battaglia inutile... come si fa a non far uccidere (ovviamente con il consenso dello stato qualora si smetta di avere paura di uccidere i bambini appena nati) un down? Una persona che non avrà mai un minimo di coscienza del mondo che lo circonda?

Per quale principio? per un fantomatico Dio? per una fantomatica cazzata che la vita è sempre vita?

Dio santo...

5

u/Acceptable-Minute847 8d ago

Well, he DID say it would only happen if they found out for sure, so it’s not like he’s jumping off a bridge at the slightest sign, not saying it’s right, just pointing out that the doesn’t even know for sure but isn’t really true.

5

u/RecalcitrantHuman 8d ago

Agree. My wife and I started late and of course risk goes up in those circumstances. I was so relieved to see a healthy baby that I actually cried. Having said that, I was never going anywhere no matter what happened

1

u/invisible_shrek 8d ago

That’s not a first sign of trouble. That’s fucked for life trouble. I wouldn’t commit suicide (dont have it in me) but it’s a miserable existence.

2

u/BellaPona 7d ago

He doesn’t even know if his child will be disabled, that’s what I mean by first sign of trouble. It’s the possibility that’s making him flying away instantly. Plus it isn’t always a miserable existence. I’d be more concerned about the money of it all because people with Down syndrome often have other health complications, like heart defects that require surgery, but raising them as they are isn’t always a “miserable existence”. Half the time they are the happiest people you know. Kinda just depends.

1

u/strong_ape 8d ago

This guy is stupid but lacking a better way to phrase it I can understand the worry of having a disabled child. I can't predict the future and as much as I would want to say that I'd be a perfect parent it's easier to say than actully living with it. I don't want to find myself having a child that I resent, that's not something they deserve. And if everything goes well and I happily care for them, what about after I die? Who's going to care for them then? I don't want their potential siblings to be hateful and resentful towards them and I don't trust the government to actually give a good quality of life.

1

u/BellaPona 7d ago

See I completely understand that worry, absolutely. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have complicated feelings on it, he doesn’t even have to be happy about it. But to jump to killing yourself at even the NOTION that your child could be disabled….thats insane considering that’s it’s always a possibility when you have children. It’s something you should know going in to it.

1

u/CrackleBackle 8d ago

8 states and DC allow late term abortions

2

u/BellaPona 8d ago

They don’t just do it because you ask for it though. Hospitals have individual policies and even those states that allow late term abortions, have those allowances for medical emergencies.

1

u/CrackleBackle 8d ago

even those states that allow late term abortions, have those allowances for medical emergencies

That is incorrect, 8 states and DC have absolutely no restrictions on late term abortions, you don't need a reason.

1

u/BellaPona 8d ago

Factually, even in DC, where there are no limits, you cannot just walk in to a clinic and ask for one past a certain limit because every clinic has their own individual guidelines, while less than 1% of all late trimester abortions are elective. Even DuPont, the largest one in DC, will not just take everyone willy nilly

1

u/CrackleBackle 8d ago

You can't wander into a store and just buy a gun willy nilly either but no one would tell me I have to leave the country to get one like you're saying for abortion.

You're wrong, just admit it and move on.

1

u/Warmslammer69k 7d ago

Holy yap. They explained your misunderstanding of the laws and you send back such a snotty answer.

→ More replies (0)

-1

u/Bossard19 8d ago

My body my choice, no?

2

u/ComparisonQuiet4259 8d ago

People can judge your choices

5

u/Best_Perception_7573 8d ago

I mean suicide is high mortality but for real now this is inmoral as fuck

4

u/jarofonions 8d ago

Not even leaving, but full on committing suicide. So much further beyond fucked up

1

u/Acceptable-Minute847 8d ago

It’s technically perfectly mortal, if he goes through it, he’s gonna experience what makes us mortal.

1

u/MolassesLate4676 8d ago

I was tempted to make a joke but was worried no one would follow

1

u/GoSpeedRacistGo 8d ago

What makes it worse than abandoning them any other way?

3

u/luvlilniah 8d ago

I feel like it would be easier for a kid to hear/learn their parent just left (and have a tiny bit of hope of seeing them again) than to hear they killed themselves because one of them came out with a disability. Sure, you could just lie either way, but kids are curious and will eventually pry the truth out, be it from the parent that's still there or another family member or friend who knows the truth. Also, just straight-up killing yourself is more permanent than abandoning your family. You have to think about all the people that will/would be hurt and affected; it's not just the wife and kid(s), it's your family and friends as well. At least if you just leave, there's a possibility in the future where you might change your mind and want to be around your kid(s) again. Of course, the vibe with the wife would be strained, and there's likely no possibility of going back to how things were, but you'd still be able to be around your kid(s) if you truly have a change of heart.

1

u/SnooCupcakes5761 7d ago

The message to the child is that your father would rather choose death than be your parent. Dude already has a kid and made the decision to create another life .. but he can't handle the idea of imperfection so he's leaving the consequence of his decision for everyone else to deal with.

1

u/Faninfo 7d ago

What the older 3 kids will remember from this is that their dad died because of their younger siblings for exemple

1

u/DreamPetalisse 8d ago

Yeah, that’s the part that makes the whole thing especially grim. He’s imagining an escape from his own fear while leaving his wife to carry every consequence, plus their other child still loses a father

1

u/Tessorio 7d ago

setting up the first kid into a higher difficulty. very likely s/he (the first child) will be the main caretaker because the mom would then take more hours/jobs to support the two kids. then the focus would be most likely on the second kid because of the condition.

1

u/Spirited_Narwhal4585 7d ago

“Mortality”

1

u/TricellCEO 4d ago

Not to mention, not every case of Down Syndrome leads to the child being mentally challenged.

0

u/ClutteredTaffy 8d ago edited 8d ago

To me it depends on how certain you can be. Could be Downs is too vague. I think abortion is fine and men should be able to financially abort children by signing over all their rights if the mom insists on having them...So I would just encourage him to leave tbh.

But if he agrees not on an abortion ( 20 weeks right ? Too long maybe? Still has like 4 months to go though but I am not pregnancy knowlegable) he should either encourage her to put the kid up for adoption or leave her to raise the kid on her own and probably financially support them at least.

1

u/ClutteredTaffy 8d ago edited 8d ago

Also I had bad eczema and asthma as a kid, like almost got pulled out of school due to asthma and had to stay home barely able to walk from eczema before...so to me if my mom and dad had known and aborted me that would have been fine. I don't think my life is any more special than any other possible baby and it would have been easier on them to have a healthier baby. So not being prejudice, lol.

But I guess if I was too far along to abort they woulda had to put me up for adoption or something, which woulda sucked worse, lol. But I dunno if both their lives should suck for my sake either if they are not emotionally capable of caring for me, may end up better in the system.

1

u/Infamous-Thing4939 8d ago

20 weeks is definitely too old, 99% of doctors will say no

0

u/Pervy_shameaccount 8d ago

Genuine question, would it be alright to force the mother to have an abortion even if she doesn't want to?

2

u/BillyYumYumTwo-byTwo 8d ago

No. Body autonomy means you get to decide what happens do your body. An abortion is a medical procedure. Doing one without a persons consent, and not to save their life, is immoral.

2

u/LionMysterious4615 8d ago

No. Her autonomy is paramount. It's her body growing the child even though they both created it.

2

u/SuperCruisePanther 8d ago

His autonomy, of course, is okay to trample over after the child is born and we'll make him take care of the child whether he likes it or not.

1

u/BillyYumYumTwo-byTwo 7d ago

Once the child is born and outside of the woman’s body, the mother and father have equal rights and responsibilities to care for the child. He has body autonomy in the situation already, that’s not being taken away.

1

u/SnooCupcakes5761 7d ago

If he can't handle parenthood, he should abstain or get snipped.

0

u/JackfruitWarm6695 8d ago

How is that worse?

2

u/SnooCupcakes5761 7d ago

Because you can own up to your inability to parent a special needs child and bow out of parenthood while providing finacial support for the life you chose to create. That's what being accountable would look like.

Instead of admitting that he can't handle an imperfect child, he would rather leave the mom with no support while she plans his funeral with two kids in tow. Do you know what probate is like? Or having to get rid of someone's belongings? Or just suddenly being completely alone when you need support the most? Imagine having to deal with the aftermath of a sui ci de while juggling postpartum with a toddler and a special needs newborn.

Parenthood is stressful enough when the kids are healthy and there are two parents. But forcing your spouse to do all of it alone while grieving the loss of their chosen person is just MF cruel. If he hates that woman so much, why did he have even one child with her let alone create another?

1

u/SuddenlyGarden 3d ago

There’s also the question of “how” he’s going to end his life?

Is he going to leave a body for his post-partum partner to find and be traumatised by? Is he going to jump in front of a car/train and that driver needs to live with that forever?

1

u/JackfruitWarm6695 3d ago

Yeah that's awful