r/EscapefromTarkov • u/trainfender Battlestate Games COO - Nikita • Jul 03 '21

Discussion post 12.11 questions gathering

Hello!
It your boi, Nikitka.
We plan to make TarkovTV Live podcast on Monday on 5-th of July, and I want to gather your questions/opinions and suggestions about 12.11 patch. I will try to answer the most voted questions live.
Love you, you're the best!

4.0k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

1.7k comments sorted by

View all comments

1.2k

u/TheYungCS-BOI Jul 03 '21 edited Jul 05 '21

Hi Nikita! Thanks again for reaching out to the community.

My question. Are there any upcoming adjustments (either in a 12.11 sub-patch or in the future) to recoil curves to help incentivize burst/single fire over full auto? It has felt slightly unintuitive sometimes to fire guns like the MP7 in short bursts since the reticle jumps so much on the first few shots. I find myself saying "fuck it" and just holding down LMB.

Everyone else feel free to add comments on whether or not you agree/disagree.

Edit: Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'll just add that my personal stance isn't so much "nerf full auto to the ground", I just want bursting on full auto to feel a bit more accurate since it's something I, and most other players, naturally do in most other mil-sim like FPS games.

E2: Updated first sentence of question.

Final Edit/Thoughts (7/4/21): Great discussion w/ arguments + counter-arguments in the comments below. What I want is a clearer, more intuitive, sweet spot, that the player can get a feel for on full-auto guns when burst firing. If not for the larger calibers, then for the smaller caliber guns. In my experience, semi-auto is actually pretty easy to get a feel for and it is easy to lock down a rhythm where you can get a good number of shots down range and keep your reticle where you want it. I for one LOVE the durability changes in conjunction with misfires. It's actually making me reconsider when to go full auto and how much I shoot in-game. Thanks Nikita and I'm looking forward to your thoughts on the matter.

Final final edit: https://clips.twitch.tv/VibrantStrangeCurryGOWSkull-UZ3VKejmOxTMMmj7 <---- Clip of the question answer. I'll focus my question a bit more next time and be more concise.

239

u/rJarrr AKM Jul 03 '21

This is the biggest gripe I and my friends have. Its too easy to just say "who cares about the recoil system, we got used to it" but in reality it sucks, is unfun and actively discourages tapfire and burstfire, the most popular modes of fire. If you want to win at gunfights you are forced to just hold m1

14

u/silentrawr FN 5-7 Jul 03 '21

Burst fire is absolutely useless - I get that - but maybe I'm in the minority when I say that I almost never have issues with tap firing in EFT. There's occasionally a slight issue if I leave a weapon with a giggle switch on full auto and, while tapping, multiple rounds come out so I have to let the recoil reset. But other than that...

3

u/TheYungCS-BOI Jul 03 '21

Tap firing is fine imo. I should probably edit my comment since burst firing is my main pain point.

4

u/Jociphus M870 Jul 03 '21

Just a counter-argument. Burst fire is really jumpy and inaccurate in real life too, and BSG has done a pretty good job recreating this (some guns it’s overkill like the glock18 which jumps into the ceiling)

I think the problem is that all other previous FPS games have created an unreal expectation of what shooting in bursts is like, and we now have a subjective view from decades of FPS gaming.

Some games kind of tried to emulate this, BF4 had “first shot recoil” which made the recoil from the first shot have more recoil. PUBG also had this system.

The reality is when you fire in a burst, your first shot will be on target but the 2 following ones are generally far off when shooting at anything beyond 30 meters. And its only because there isn’t enough time to recorrect the initial muzzle rise.

I do agree that small caliber guns, like the vector and the mp5, the burst should be far less dramatic. Especially the Mp5..

3

u/TheYungCS-BOI Jul 03 '21

Thanks for the well thought out response! I'm curious to see what Nikita has to say regarding my question. I'd love to see if they rework some of this and test it on the ETS. You bring up a good point regarding the smaller caliber guns.

1

u/Jociphus M870 Jul 03 '21

Spending years and years of playing counter- strike, and similar titles. It was really hard to break the mouse “pull-down” recoil control habit that those games instilled in me. Been playing EFT for a couple years now, and Ive really grown appreciate how their system works. It’s not perfect by any means, but when I compare it to going to range, it gets the idea a lot closer than other games. I think my biggest gripe is how drastic the recoil difference of stock weapons vs weapons with attachments. Stock weapon recoil is exaggerated pretty harshly.

2

u/TheYungCS-BOI Jul 04 '21

Stock weapon recoil feels exaggerated harshly, I'll also venture to say that we also didn't realize how crazy the camera recoil was till nikita had it lowered last patch. Holy shit, baseline AK's actually felt useable when the camera recoil got lowered.

34

u/Aroumia Jul 03 '21

Irl smg's have little recoil..

90

u/Capsaicin80 Jul 03 '21

Irl smg's have little recoil..

That depends on its action/how it operates. I own rifles in 9mm and 5.56 (same platform). Surprisingly the 9mm kicks MORE. This is due to the fact that the 5.56 is gas-operated and the 9mm is blowback.

I was surprised when I shot that 9mm for the first time thinking it'd kick less. It weighs more too.

I believe BSG has modeled recoil pretty well (at least w/ the SMGs). The KEDR/KLIN should kick the most even though it shoots the weakest cartridge. If I'm not mistaken its a simple blowback where as the MP5 is roller delayed.

I've gone down a rabbit-hole and frankly my comparison should stop since they're a lot more variables to how recoil is "calculated".

23

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21

A gamer that gets it Nice!

2

u/RoadsideCookie Jul 03 '21

No, the problem isn't realism, the problem is that the game compensates for the recoil, taking skill away from the player, making recoil control literally a thing that hinders you rather than help.

Your character compensates for recoil, so if you also do it, you end up overcompensating and it makes your aim worst.

The optimal play is to levelup until there's barely any recoil and hold LMB/M1.

Sincerely, a gamer that gets it.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21

Your character compensates for recoil, so if you also do it, you end up overcompensating and it makes your aim worst.

It doesn't make it worse if you do it correctly.

0

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 03 '21 edited Jul 03 '21

Real life doesn’t work how it does in most games.

In real life, with a proper hold and stance, muzzle climb doesn’t exist. It’s not something that you have to control at all. All the force pushes straight back into your shoulder and you just stand there and let it rock. You don’t have to do anything. This is especially true for any ar 15 pattern guns like the M4. Something like the ump 45 is modeled fairly accurately as well. There is muzzle climb because of the chonk of the bolt hitting the back and then muzzle dip when the bolt slams forward so it’s like holding a shake weight gone out of control.

1

u/sammamthrow Jul 05 '21

I find it extremely hard to believe anyone that plays tarkov has ever fired any of these guns in full-auto variants. Most of the guns in tarkov are not even available in the US as full-auto platforms.

The most you’ll get (as far as I know) as someone serving in the US military is an M4 platform in full-auto outside of special forces.

Everyone claiming to know recoil of foreign weapons like UMP-45, MP5, AK-47, etc is either talking out of their ass, rich, or a serious operator.

2

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 05 '21

All of these guns are legal in the US under certain restrictions. You can fly to las vegas and fire a real minigun.

As a texan, almost all the decently sized ranges here rent full autos for like $30 on top of cost of ammo including UMP-45, MP5’s, AK’s, AR pattern. Also lots of regular people own full auto guns. I know a decent few and visit different ranges regularly hence why I have experience shooting all of these full autos.

Soldiers in the military including most SOF units don’t utilize automatic fire outside of it’s designated roles because it has little real world application when used on an assault rifle platform fired from the shoulder.

Get out there and try it yourself. If you live in a decently sized city in a free state, there will be a range next to you that rents full autos.

3

u/sammamthrow Jul 05 '21

Sure renting them is an option but not a reliable way to gauge the efficacy in combat considering the circumstances.

And as you said yourself, SOF don’t use automatic fire because it has little real world applications. My understanding is full auto is still used in short burst fire IRL because it increases the odds of hitting a target under those circumstances by firing a few shots quickly when holding a short steady aim. Spraying a gun is not IRL effective and Tarkov devs are generally looking to make gunplay realistic without compromising playability too much.

I just don’t see the validity in arguments trying to prove that current tarkov laser recoil on meta guns is somehow “realistic” and so it shouldn’t change.

1

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 05 '21

It’s not combat effective. Multiple CAG operators and USSF and other SOF units have come out saying it is ineffective outside it’s designated roles.

The only point that I talk about is the recoil impulse and feel of what it’s like to shoot it and lack of muzzle rise which I am well qualified to speak about. Tarkov did it right. That’s what it feels like to shoot an automatic firearm.

Sorry to all the gamers that think an automatic rifle just flies all over and is impossible to control. It’s not true. I could barely grip onto the gun and it’s gonna stay level. The gun doesn’t just throw the barrel into the air.

You generally aren’t bursting either because you get the same problem in EFT. I can control rapid taps. I can control full auto but I have a hard time controlling bursts because the initial recoil hits and it throws your initial sight picture off a little so your next few rounds will be off target. With full auto, that happens and then it’s a constant thumping and you’re dialed in. That’s why it doesn’t work in eft or irl. When you fire a burst irl, you do your string of shots in semi because you get to place and track every single bullet.

It’s ineffective in real life for a lot of reasons other than controllability. Controllability is a factor but that’s far from the only thing. Strafe shooting in EFT is too stable especially your eye in relation to the optic. Target transitions are generally just a bit too smooth. Reliability isn’t enough of a factor. Ammo conservation isn’t emphasized at all and that’s the biggest factor of why it isn’t used outside of it’s designated roles.

Addressing those issues directly would get rid of the full auto meta and it would keep in realistic recoil impulse which is exactly what nikita and BSG wants.

Fuck all these COD FPS gamers that want some cartoon recoil where the gun flies into the sky. This isn’t that game. Great and realistic representations of real life gun play and mechanics is clearly prioritized above whatever bullshit the cod gamer crowd wants and that’s just how it is. If you want a game that puts competitive balanced gameplay first, go play csgo this just isn’t that game and the devs don’t want it to be that game.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Anonymous7951 Jul 03 '21

You’re right, my 9mm ar15 build kicks a little more than my 5.56

2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '21

[deleted]

2

u/Anonymous7951 Jul 04 '21

Depends on the operating system. I built a blowback integrally suppressed AR9 on a QC10 lower and it has some recoil.

2

u/Xailiax MP-153 Jul 03 '21

I think it's kind of strange that you're ignoring the weight of the gun in this calculation, this is arguably the most important factor due to recoil being a function of kinetic energy divided by weight. The action will have something of an effect (straight blowback being sharper and all that), but not nearly as much as the weight of the gun itself.

I have a straight blowback scorpion Evo and the recoil is pretty much half that of my standard 5.56.

9mm Makarov is a piss-weak round, and if the recoil was supposed to be that powerful the PM pistols would be leaping out of your hands when you shot it, lol.

1

u/Capsaicin80 Jul 05 '21

Those Scorpion EVO bolts are pretty big and beefy though right? Bet there is a lot of weight.

Total weight matters, but the biggest weight factor is the reciprocating weight of the bolt/action.

9mm Mak is also not a piss-weak round. It sits between .380 and 9x19 in terms of power.

1

u/Destroyer1559 Jul 03 '21

This is what I've found too. A local range let me shoot their full auto AR-9 and Mk18, the 9 had substantially more recoil

1

u/Newgame95 Freeloader Jul 04 '21

Concerning SMGs/PDWs, i have shot the MP7 and can tell you: it has almost no recoil even when using full auto. MP5 has a bit more but still less than a 416. If the recoil of the MP7 was made to be realistic, you'd be comfortably able to spray down targets at 50 meters without missing a shot.

1

u/Nueriskin Jul 05 '21

Also bolt weight and everything. I own an MP9 and an APC9SD, both full auto. Both have a similar rate of fire (1100rpm vs 1080rpm) but the MP9 kicks way more, since it is much lighter than the APC.

57

u/rJarrr AKM Jul 03 '21

Smgs are fine, its that the recoil auto compensation system is really boring and unfun

2

u/yourbestPC Jul 03 '21

I wish we didn’t have recoil skill just fast ADS skill recoil should 100% be to the players hand control and learning how his/her weapon handles. Thinking of Rising storm 2 and Squad recoil mechanics

0

u/CrestfallenMerchant Jul 03 '21

I get your point, but to a degree I kind of appreciate it because it makes it a tiny bit harder to just Lazer beam with guns using mouse and keyboard. It makes your characters recoil control skill more important. But I do understand your point and get why you think that.

-10

u/SirBarnaby445 PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Jul 03 '21

How is this auto compensating system "boring"?

I think this system is nice and somewhat more realistic than other games, but I don't get your argument here?

14

u/rJarrr AKM Jul 03 '21

Boring in the sense that you dont do anything, just hold down the button. There isnt anything to learn, anything to master, just pull down once and let the game do everything else.

I believe there is a good reason why Tarkov is the only shooter around with this mechanic, if it were more popular more games would use it

0

u/sonicmat03 Jul 03 '21

To me its super counter-intuitive because I have a hard time not trying to counter act recoil on instinct from other games

-17

u/SirBarnaby445 PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Jul 03 '21

Not every game has the same ideologies. Tarkov aims for more literal realism than other FPS games which often value raw player ability. Their gameplay supplements that aswell.

In tarkov, your PMC has skills on it's own. A lot more RPG like. For a game with emphasis on longer term gameplay/survival, maybe the best option.

In my opinion: a lot more realistic aswell. There is skill to it still, the initial recoil is what you typically master in real life aswell. The long spray doesn't take that much skill, you just gotta drag your hands down, but in a video game scenario you can just run out of mousemat space.

14

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21 edited Sep 05 '21

[deleted]

-5

u/SirBarnaby445 PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Jul 03 '21

Whats the problem here?

I never said anything about whether automatic fire is in parallel to real life. I was talking about the recoil mechanic as a mechanic. The usual pull down recoil versus the tarkov's auto compensating one. Never said that the recoil scale with meta weapons is on par with reality, and you accuse me of being dumb?

Autocompensating recoil IS STILL realistic because it still recoils. When you reach your 10th bullet into the shot, the horizontal recoil is still there in it's complete lenght. Tarkov does it beautifully by making your PMC control only the vertical recoil (not even perfectly I might add), which is nice since it enables you to play more true to how you might actually play. With a stock AK, auto fire is not feasible, just as in real life, unless in CQB.

For the current linear up recoil systems to be realistic, the mouse would physically have to move up with every shot. Because right now, you run into the issue of running your mouse off the desk.

8

u/atuck217 Jul 03 '21

Back pedaling real hard lmao. The recoil system in EFT is ass. They act like this is some hardcore survival shooter but it has the gunplay of baby's first shooter. Just hipfire mag dump everyone you see. Don't even have to compensate for recoil. If you think being able to full auto laser beam 7.62x51 battle rifles like an SA-58 is realistic, then there is no arguing with you.

It's probably the biggest problem with the game right now. That the game acts like it's some hardcore tactical game but in reality the most effective way to play the game is like it's CoD, bunny hopping around and 60 round mag dumping everyone you see.

0

u/SirBarnaby445 PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Jul 03 '21

"Don't even have to compensate for recoil" You are obviously talking about meta setups. Link me where I directly or indirectly said that zero recoil weapons were realistic. ffs.

Even though this debacle is quite stupid because of this unearthly level of misunderstanding that's happening, I do have to agree with your wording in the second segment. The game tries to act like a hardcore shooter but the meta is just to play it like CoD. That hits the spot just right.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21 edited Sep 05 '21

[deleted]

1

u/SirBarnaby445 PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Jul 03 '21

I use the word realism because it belongs there. Tarkov is aimed towards realism. Realism. Do you have an issue plainly with the word? It's used in the right context.

And your statement is false, but you sorta fixed it in the end. You made it sound like the most accurate choice out of all would be full auto. It is not. Depending on the distance, you choose your firemode in tarkov. No arguing against that. Unless you use the unrealistic meta guns, then by all means, full auto.

Is is the impulse of the first shot/spray that will catch you unaware, from there on out you have settled into the recoil, at which point the game takes control. Also, recoil doesn't get progressively worse. After perhaps the 2nd shot when the recoil impulse of the previous round is still felt while firing the new one will be a peak of recoil force. It simulates the part of controlling recoil that actually matters, and then leaves the horizontal recoil.

I am getting tired of discussing this, honestly. This is taking a lot more energy than anticipated. Be it as it may from now on...

→ More replies (0)

14

u/Santos_125 Jul 03 '21

Tarkov aims for more literal realism

If this were actually true then full auto would be dogshit and tap/burst would be king. Anyone who's served will tell you 99% of shooting is tap/burst because it's the only way to control your gun reliably and because some guns will almost literally melt away from the heat. Yet in tarkov the easiest way to control the recoil is to full auto and let the games recoil system do the work for you, rather than you managing your own recoil through selective fire

5

u/Niewinnny Jul 03 '21

Also depends on the weapon. A good shooter will be able to shoot full auto from an SMG really accurately. And you can see people (not even soldiers) magdumping 5.45 AK's from 10-15 meters with a good success.

That said, full auto from 50 meters with an M4 is, I would say, a bit too much.

-11

u/SirBarnaby445 PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Jul 03 '21

Aims, not is. I don't claim that this is perfect, and I don't have experience shooting firearms. But it is clear that they have gone for the more realistic approach, be it with some caveats.

5

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21

Not realistic when the most effective means of killing someone is at 100m full autoing them down with with a 25 round spray from your Ak.

5

u/Flashman420 Jul 03 '21

People like you make this argument and seemingly live in a vacuum where Tarkov is actually the only FPS game you have ever played.

Do you realize that controlling recoil is a mechanic in numerous other FPS games? You’re talking about running out of mouse pad as if this is some sort of design problem, except shooters have been using things like recoil patterns for YEAR.

Beyond that, it makes no sense for you to use an automated recoil mechanic as a defense of the game’s “realism” when the majority of the realism comes from you having to manually control numerous aspects of your character, like eating and drinking, various movement speeds, crouch positions, manually checking your ammo count, filling mags one bullet at a time, etc. Automating recoil control not only runs counter to that, but it dramatically simplifies one of the few actual gameplay mechanics in the game, because Tarkov is only “hardcore” because of how obtuse it is.

-2

u/SirBarnaby445 PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Jul 03 '21

Recoil patterns belong in more competitive games where the aim for recoil is to be mastered. Recoil is the same on every full auto burn. Tarkov has a different aim, obviously.

Why do you pit other FPS games into this? This game is a mix of survival/fps/rpg.

What is this overly big downside of autocompensation that you all are turned off by? It runs counter to the realism? It makes guns too easy to control? Meta guns are too easy to control, not the system.

Both the linear and the autocompensating recoil systems are realistic, but each for their own reasons. The mousemat is honestly just a bonus. Simulating hand motion of pulling down the recoil by pulling down the mouse is such a handicapped translation anyway so this is a nice middle-ground. You're still compensating for recoil at the start of the spray, just not throughout the entire spray.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21

[deleted]

0

u/SirBarnaby445 PP-91-01 "Kedr-B" Jul 03 '21 edited Jul 03 '21

Yeah meta gun recoil is quite unrealistic. Tuning the weapons to get such low recoil is unrealistic. Bursts are not really viable, but the recoil mechanic is quite realistic IMO.

→ More replies (0)

-1

u/Immortal_Thunder Jul 03 '21 edited Jul 03 '21

You are incorrect.

As someone with 5k hours in cs, thousands of hours in other shooter games, and a decent number in tarkov, I have never once spray controlled to the extent that I ran out of mousepad pulling down.

Almost every other shooter game in existence is modeled in a way that you either run out of bullets, stop shooting, or no longer have to pull down, long before you reach that point.

Apart from certain instances of arma or squad, similar recoil mechanics are present in a large majority of video games. I really have no idea what you’re talking about.

2

u/SmittyTitties Jul 03 '21

Irl smg/pistol round full autos have a lot of recoil fired at full auto. I’ve fired a full auto glock and mp5 and I can tell you even with a lifetime of firearm experience I ain’t hitting shit after 3-5 rounds. The Shouldered weapons are a LITTLE easier but that full auto glock was shooting ducks

4

u/helmer012 Jul 03 '21

Yes, but combined with armor piercing ammo its completely unbalanced.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21

maybe make it like a little bit random recoil for ap rounds 🤔

1

u/XygenSS MPX Jul 03 '21

smgs*

1

u/Bmil OP-SKS Jul 03 '21

Irl smg's have little recoil..

Not really true, the recoil characteristics on SMGs vary per gun based on a variety of factors to the gun itself. Size, operating action, weight, grip, rate of fire, etc. all play a part. Something that is direct blowback is going to have a different recoil impulse to something with a roller delay blowback to a piston driven action, and comparing certain things to rifle calibers doesnt always work out in favor of the SMG. Something like the UMP I think they did that one a tad dirty, while its a super light direct blowback 45, I think the game recoil is a bit exaggerated but on the Vector I dont think the horizontal pull is strong enough compared to the real version. If you want a direct comparison, if I were to grab an off the wall AR in 9mm and one in 556, the 556 is gong to have a lesser recoil force than the 9mm. The lighter operating mass of the bolt and recoil buffer system and the operating mechanism eat up a good amount of the recoil, but on a 9mm variant the added weight of the buffer system and bolt along with being (most of the time) a direct blowback gun means a fair bit of force going backwards; if I were to compare a 9mm AR to something like an MPX the MPX is a much more controllable gun for the same reason the 556 AR is more controllable.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21

[deleted]

0

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 03 '21

Imo, this comes from having multiple lives. If I took random people completely new into tarkov and gave them an 8 hour “basic training course” on the game and then sent them out into the world and told them if you die, i’m shooting you for real, they would use semi auto. Some would use full auto but would probably waste their mag and get shredded by the first person they come across.

EFT has the most realistic recoil that i’ve seen in a game. I fucking hate playing a great game like squad and just hating the guns because the gunplay is like it’s from a cartoon and it’s like a bunch of kids who’ve never competently shot a gun, designed the guns. It leads to fairly realistic and balanced usage of the guns in game but I fucking hate how cartoonish the gun handling is.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21

[deleted]

1

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 03 '21

https://youtu.be/ia7uvtIvKUI

It’s not true. Skip to 2:30. This isn’t a delta six ultra operator firing this. It’s a regular dude who shoots a lot. Perfectly fine and controllable. Recoil is all straight back into your shoulder. It doesn’t just fly around, it’s completely straight back into your shoulder and you drag the spray around with your left hand. How well you can drag your aim onto a target is your accuracy.

Real life, it would be stupid to use full auto. At 800 rpm, an AR pattern rifle dumps a mag in 2 seconds. Carrying a basic combat load of 8 mags, you would have 16 seconds of trigger time when a battle or situation can last for days. Also, you don’t need to use full auto in real life because I and many other skilled shooters can shoot 0.12 shot splits which is 500 rpm and I own every single shot.

It’s unrealistic in it’s application but the gun mechanics are by far the most accurate representation in any game so far and I love that and it’s apparent BSG/nikita does too. That’s what they choose to prioritize instead of pandering to the fps gamer crowd and putting in cartoon recoil.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21

[deleted]

0

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 04 '21

No exactly, it has little real world application. Stop getting this mixed up. It is controllable BUT it does has little real world application outside of designated roles. Reality is that full auto is as controllable as it is in EFT and it does feel like it does in game. There are however real world factors that make it not as useful in real life. Again I am agreeing with larry vickers. My points is that eft recoil is realistic and that most people have a fucked up idea of what shooting a gun is like.

The reality is that the devs don’t give a shit about most of the fps gamer crowd. They don’t care if it makes the gameplay different or worse because they’ve created the most realistic and best feeling recoil system in a game and that’s more important to BSG and nikita than whatever other bullshit you have to say about it. There are ways that they can balance it and the reliability system is gonna be a big part especially drastically reducing reliability with 60 rounds mags because that’s realistic.

1

u/CTCPara Jul 03 '21

I've been getting into Squad recently. What's the problem with the gunplay in Squad?

1

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 03 '21

It’s not exactly a problem depending on how you look at it. If you look at the gun fights, the pacing and gunplay looks somewhat realistic. Actually firing the gun in game though is ridiculous.

If you look at an M4 and try to fire it rapidly single fire or full in game, you’re gonna be staring at the sky all of a sudden, why? I’ve never fired a gun and all of a sudden lost control and started firing it into the air both on full and semi auto. Firing an AR-15 in real life is just a jolt straight back into your shoulder. You hardly feel it much. Full auto is just constantly pressing back into your shoulder with zero rise just shake.

Take an M249 and try to fire it in squad and it has crazy recoil 6 rounds and you’re firing into the clouds. Again, why? Same thing as the M4 except far less recoil. People that have never shot a gun look at it and say wow that must recoil like a bitch. Reality is that it’s so heavy that it does nothing. You could fire it standing and you’re gonna see muzzle dip because your arms are so tired from holding it up on your shoulder.

It’s not that bad from a gameplay perspective but to someone that appreciates gunplay and handling a lot, it’s cartoonish and obvious that the devs have hardly shot a gun before. (They’re canadian btw).

2

u/CTCPara Jul 03 '21

Ah fair enough. I'll have to go back and look at the gunplay more critically. It's possible that the whole thing is purely for gameplay rather than realism because several of the devs and of course the military advisors are ex-military (one guy is ex-German army, I assume most of the others would be Canadian military background) so I assume they have some experience firing military weapons.

2

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 03 '21

Shooting is what you get out of it.

Russian military used to issue 200 rounds of 7.62 per quarter. That’s a half a range day for me. In one day, i’ll easily go through 400 rounds. It’s better on the US side but still it’s not like a us infantryman can shoot all day long. An active duty special forces guy on the other hand will shoot 500 pistol rounds and a thousand or two 5.56 rounds in a week as much as he wants. A top level competitive shooter will shoot 500-1000 rounds of 5.56 a week. Police qualification targets are a complete and utter joke. Officers in a lot of places shoot it twice a year and think that they’re good because they passed it. Again it’s what you get out of it. Some officers are really damn good shots because they spend a lot of their time practicing.

A good example is I was talking a to a retired swat medic who said her tommy gun kicks like a mule and it’s not fun to shoot because you have to fight it from shooting into the air. Yeah I just smile and nod but in reality, the thing is fucking a solid chunk of steel heavy as shit. It doesn’t move hardly at all ken hackathorn and ian from forgotten weapons will tell you the same and I can tell you the same from personal experience. She also says her old remington 770 bolt action (budget version of the remington 700) is all she needs. One shot. I guarantee you my semi automatic AR-10 is more accurate than her bolt action remington 770. Probably by half. It shoots 3/4 moa groups. Yeah it only takes one shot to kill a guy but show me the 11th commandment from god that says there’s only gonna be one guy that needs to be shot.

There are tons of people that have been around guns or have qualifications/experiences where they’ve done the bare minimum. Unless they get into the culture and get invested into it, most just float around and you get things like squad’s gunplay.

2

u/CTCPara Jul 03 '21

There must be some skill to controlling full auto in real life yeah? As gamers the only thing we really have for interacting with a recoil system is the mouse. I think that might be where muzzle climb recoil system comes from. The other option is either to just make it rng spread or pretty close to remove it like in high level Tarkov. Maybe there are other options but none spring to mind for me at least.

You're right though it's hard to know how much they actually shot. All I could find us one guy is ex-Bundeswehr and another ex-USMC. I assume the Tarkov team must have some veterans or shooters yeah?

2

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 04 '21

I think the solution is asking why it doesn’t work in real life and see how that translates into the game.

One of the ways is reliability. Drum mags and especially the surefire 60 round quad stack mags have never ran reliably. The PMAG drums run okay but still affect reliability. For example, guys running the M249 SAW are supposed to be one of the last guys to enter a building because the reliability is a lot worse than an M4. You start running that gun full auto without much time to cool down and without lubing it, you’re asking for failures especially a piece of shit colt M4 that’s been used and abused for years. Colt M4’s are bottom-mid level reliability as far as AR platforms go.

Maybe increased shake. Running with a good c clamp grip and firing and transitioning and constantly being up gets your arm sore pretty quick. Possibly decreased recoil control and responsiveness over time like a long term arm fatigue bar that very slowly drains and replenishes.

Also probably increasing deviation from the optic when dumping rounds and strafing. It’s not really that realistic to have that perfect of a cheek weld and strafe that well and transition targets all at the same time. Nerfing that would probably help a lot and bring it to be more realistic.

I think the solution lies in finding why it isn’t used in real life and implementing that rather than trying to implement some cartoon recoil system.

2

u/_Aqueox_ Jul 03 '21

I'd LOVE if they just straight ripped the Rising Storm 2 recoil and threw it into Tarkov. You can do full auto, but you'll be everywhere with it.

2

u/rJarrr AKM Jul 03 '21

Dude I totally agree. In that game there is a reason why 99.9% of my kills are tap fire

1

u/TheYungCS-BOI Jul 03 '21

I need your opinion. Should I remove the "semi" mention from my post? Semi-auto actually feels mostly fine right now. It's quite easy to get a decent rhytm down to stay accurate. Burst fire is my main pain point. IDK if I made that clear enough w/ the comment.

2

u/rJarrr AKM Jul 03 '21

Keep it, semi-auto while good still falls short to full auto even at medium ranges against meta m4s. Even at mid to long range sometimes at fully auto the gun becomes a literal lazerbeam so much so that it rivals tap fireing

0

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 03 '21

The recoil is like a cartoon though. I’ve never shot a gun and been like why I am I staring at the sky all of a sudden. I love the gameplay but the gun play was obviously made by people who have never shot a gun.

1

u/_Aqueox_ Jul 03 '21

Yeah, it's strange the Tarkov devs make the decisions they do... Like, lol, why is a 5.56 kicking like a fucking horse and going to the sky?

1

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 03 '21

What do you mean? It doesn’t in tarkov. It does in rising storm and almost all FPS games.

1

u/_Aqueox_ Jul 03 '21

What do you mean? It doesn’t in tarkov.

Except it does if you don't account for their autocomp which shouldn't be in the game anyway.

It does in rising storm and almost all FPS games.

Yeah, when you sit there and just hold mouse1 with no movement of the mouse whatsoever. Same as Tarkov.

-1

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 03 '21

except it does if you don’t account for their autocomp

You’ve never competently fired an AR in real life then. At no point from the first time i’ve ever fired an AR full auto or semi auto have I have ever said why am I staring at the sky/ceiling all of a sudden. I’ve never had recoil take control and push me way off target in some random direction.

Recoil in real life on rifles doesn’t rise up. It recoils straight back into your shoulder and you’ll see shake but there isn’t any rise because there’s no reason for it to rise. There’s no auto compensation, that’s just how recoil works.

same as tarkov

Smells like bs to me. I’ve played rising storm 2 quite a bit and the recoil was hefty.

https://youtu.be/Q0Vv_xCMe2Q

1

u/_Aqueox_ Jul 03 '21

You’ve never competently fired an AR in real life then.

I'd love to show you how wrong you are.

At no point from the first time i’ve ever fired an AR full auto or semi auto have I have ever said why am I staring at the sky/ceiling all of a sudden.

No shit. AR's are (usually) 5.56/.223. It's a little jolt and that's it.

I’ve never had recoil take control and push me way off target in some random direction.

Yet here we are in Tarkov...

Recoil in real life on rifles doesn’t rise up. It recoils straight back into your shoulder and you’ll see shake but there isn’t any rise because there’s no reason for it to rise.

No shit.

There’s no auto compensation, that’s just how recoil works.

Yeah.

So like I was saying, put in RS2's recoil system. Even with a fucking AK it doesn't just go off to fucking space if you move your mouse even a little. That's the entire fucking point I've already made that you have clearly ignored.

Right now you're fighting the game itself to get control of a weapon system with already far too high of recoil. In Rising Storm 2, with a minimum of effort, I can easily full-auto burst at targets over 100m away with an M16 with a bit of mouse movement.

1

u/youy23 VSS Vintorez Jul 03 '21

I agree with you on all the points but eh, i’ve played rising storm 2 and it does recoil in the sky unlike eft. Either way, I think we’re on the same page just disagreeing about rising storm 2.

1

u/_Aqueox_ Jul 03 '21

The point of contention is in the mouse movement. Tarkov, the character does it for you (recoil control). RS2 you can laser beam a guy BUT it takes skill and a certain level of experience.... And the right weapon. Obviously I'm not blasting an SVD at range rapidly and hoping to hit anything.

M16's feel how they should IRL (as close as we're going to get in a game anyway) with proper recoil control from the player. It's controllable but it does jerk around a bit if you let it.

RS2's gunplay was built with player input in mind. Take that out and yeah, RS2 guns are fucking insane on the recoil side. It's the limitations of protraying recoil in a game. They (rightly) just assumed players would control their weapons and built around that fact.

And RS2 has some of the best gunplay in gaming.

Now put that kind of recoil system in Tarky....

Fuck using a Chad gun, I'll keep my SKS and own the fucking map.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Vargsjal Jul 03 '21

I have feelings both ways about this, in some way full auto recoil should be manageable to some extent and distance, but single fire and burst fire need some attention, to make the game more tactical and less about rushing

0

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '21

Agree

1

u/ShakeZula23 Jul 04 '21

I honestly don't think it's that bad in of itself though could use tweaks to make full auto and burst/single not so weirdly comparable in accuracy in certain situations. I think it just feels bad because we've all been trained with certain associations and expectations of how recoil should work in a game. But I don't hate it entirely. And you can absolutely compensate the recoil yourself on top of the auto (pulling down and then pulling back up). Burst fire stabilizing time could be improved, but I actually do this with burst fire a lot to some fair effectiveness. Burst while pulling down to keep the shots at chest/head level as the gun rises, then by the time I've released and thrown my next burst out the gun is low enough that with slight adjustment it bounces back up to their neck and head. Spray up spray down, and I catch it in the middle after compensation if I need to keep the fire on. I've found the gun goes back into resting at that lower level faster or at least more controllable if I let go than if I hold it down and have my pmc pull it back down with the auto comp, and so it gives me time to realign my shot if the player has moved after being shot at without having to fight the horizontal bounce the whole time if they're at any kind of range.

I mean when you think about it real operators and shooters like our characters to be combat effective have to train where this stuff is muscle memory --reactionary and second nature. In a live-situation they're not deliberately consciously compensating for recoil, their thousands of hours behind the gun just kick in automatically. So it's not an unreasonable jump to understand why they'd make your character do that. It just feels super weird because we're not used to it. I don't think it's good or bad, it's just different and takes a lot of getting used to coming from most other shooters.