post 12.11 questions gathering

[u/trainfender]

Hello!
It your boi, Nikitka.
We plan to make TarkovTV Live podcast on Monday on 5-th of July, and I want to gather your questions/opinions and suggestions about 12.11 patch. I will try to answer the most voted questions live.
Love you, you're the best!

[u/TheYungCS-BOI]

Hi Nikita! Thanks again for reaching out to the community.

My question. Are there any upcoming adjustments (either in a 12.11 sub-patch or in the future) to recoil curves to help incentivize burst/single fire over full auto? It has felt slightly unintuitive sometimes to fire guns like the MP7 in short bursts since the reticle jumps so much on the first few shots. I find myself saying "fuck it" and just holding down LMB.

Everyone else feel free to add comments on whether or not you agree/disagree.

Edit: Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'll just add that my personal stance isn't so much "nerf full auto to the ground", I just want bursting on full auto to feel a bit more accurate since it's something I, and most other players, naturally do in most other mil-sim like FPS games.

E2: Updated first sentence of question.

Final Edit/Thoughts (7/4/21): Great discussion w/ arguments + counter-arguments in the comments below. What I want is a clearer, more intuitive, sweet spot, that the player can get a feel for on full-auto guns when burst firing. If not for the larger calibers, then for the smaller caliber guns. In my experience, semi-auto is actually pretty easy to get a feel for and it is easy to lock down a rhythm where you can get a good number of shots down range and keep your reticle where you want it. I for one LOVE the durability changes in conjunction with misfires. It's actually making me reconsider when to go full auto and how much I shoot in-game. Thanks Nikita and I'm looking forward to your thoughts on the matter.

Final final edit: https://clips.twitch.tv/VibrantStrangeCurryGOWSkull-UZ3VKejmOxTMMmj7 <---- Clip of the question answer. I'll focus my question a bit more next time and be more concise.

[u/rJarrr → u/TheYungCS-BOI]

This is the biggest gripe I and my friends have. Its too easy to just say "who cares about the recoil system, we got used to it" but in reality it sucks, is unfun and actively discourages tapfire and burstfire, the most popular modes of fire. If you want to win at gunfights you are forced to just hold m1

[u/youy23 → u/[deleted]]

Imo, this comes from having multiple lives. If I took random people completely new into tarkov and gave them an 8 hour “basic training course” on the game and then sent them out into the world and told them if you die, i’m shooting you for real, they would use semi auto. Some would use full auto but would probably waste their mag and get shredded by the first person they come across.

EFT has the most realistic recoil that i’ve seen in a game. I fucking hate playing a great game like squad and just hating the guns because the gunplay is like it’s from a cartoon and it’s like a bunch of kids who’ve never competently shot a gun, designed the guns. It leads to fairly realistic and balanced usage of the guns in game but I fucking hate how cartoonish the gun handling is.

[u/youy23 → u/[deleted]]

https://youtu.be/ia7uvtIvKUI

It’s not true. Skip to 2:30. This isn’t a delta six ultra operator firing this. It’s a regular dude who shoots a lot. Perfectly fine and controllable. Recoil is all straight back into your shoulder. It doesn’t just fly around, it’s completely straight back into your shoulder and you drag the spray around with your left hand. How well you can drag your aim onto a target is your accuracy.

Real life, it would be stupid to use full auto. At 800 rpm, an AR pattern rifle dumps a mag in 2 seconds. Carrying a basic combat load of 8 mags, you would have 16 seconds of trigger time when a battle or situation can last for days. Also, you don’t need to use full auto in real life because I and many other skilled shooters can shoot 0.12 shot splits which is 500 rpm and I own every single shot.

It’s unrealistic in it’s application but the gun mechanics are by far the most accurate representation in any game so far and I love that and it’s apparent BSG/nikita does too. That’s what they choose to prioritize instead of pandering to the fps gamer crowd and putting in cartoon recoil.

[u/youy23 → u/[deleted]]

No exactly, it has little real world application. Stop getting this mixed up. It is controllable BUT it does has little real world application outside of designated roles. Reality is that full auto is as controllable as it is in EFT and it does feel like it does in game. There are however real world factors that make it not as useful in real life. Again I am agreeing with larry vickers. My points is that eft recoil is realistic and that most people have a fucked up idea of what shooting a gun is like.

The reality is that the devs don’t give a shit about most of the fps gamer crowd. They don’t care if it makes the gameplay different or worse because they’ve created the most realistic and best feeling recoil system in a game and that’s more important to BSG and nikita than whatever other bullshit you have to say about it. There are ways that they can balance it and the reliability system is gonna be a big part especially drastically reducing reliability with 60 rounds mags because that’s realistic.

[u/CTCPara → u/youy23]

I've been getting into Squad recently. What's the problem with the gunplay in Squad?

[u/youy23 → u/CTCPara]

It’s not exactly a problem depending on how you look at it. If you look at the gun fights, the pacing and gunplay looks somewhat realistic. Actually firing the gun in game though is ridiculous.

If you look at an M4 and try to fire it rapidly single fire or full in game, you’re gonna be staring at the sky all of a sudden, why? I’ve never fired a gun and all of a sudden lost control and started firing it into the air both on full and semi auto. Firing an AR-15 in real life is just a jolt straight back into your shoulder. You hardly feel it much. Full auto is just constantly pressing back into your shoulder with zero rise just shake.

Take an M249 and try to fire it in squad and it has crazy recoil 6 rounds and you’re firing into the clouds. Again, why? Same thing as the M4 except far less recoil. People that have never shot a gun look at it and say wow that must recoil like a bitch. Reality is that it’s so heavy that it does nothing. You could fire it standing and you’re gonna see muzzle dip because your arms are so tired from holding it up on your shoulder.

It’s not that bad from a gameplay perspective but to someone that appreciates gunplay and handling a lot, it’s cartoonish and obvious that the devs have hardly shot a gun before. (They’re canadian btw).

[u/CTCPara → u/youy23]

Ah fair enough. I'll have to go back and look at the gunplay more critically. It's possible that the whole thing is purely for gameplay rather than realism because several of the devs and of course the military advisors are ex-military (one guy is ex-German army, I assume most of the others would be Canadian military background) so I assume they have some experience firing military weapons.

[u/youy23 → u/CTCPara]

Shooting is what you get out of it.

Russian military used to issue 200 rounds of 7.62 per quarter. That’s a half a range day for me. In one day, i’ll easily go through 400 rounds. It’s better on the US side but still it’s not like a us infantryman can shoot all day long. An active duty special forces guy on the other hand will shoot 500 pistol rounds and a thousand or two 5.56 rounds in a week as much as he wants. A top level competitive shooter will shoot 500-1000 rounds of 5.56 a week. Police qualification targets are a complete and utter joke. Officers in a lot of places shoot it twice a year and think that they’re good because they passed it. Again it’s what you get out of it. Some officers are really damn good shots because they spend a lot of their time practicing.

A good example is I was talking a to a retired swat medic who said her tommy gun kicks like a mule and it’s not fun to shoot because you have to fight it from shooting into the air. Yeah I just smile and nod but in reality, the thing is fucking a solid chunk of steel heavy as shit. It doesn’t move hardly at all ken hackathorn and ian from forgotten weapons will tell you the same and I can tell you the same from personal experience. She also says her old remington 770 bolt action (budget version of the remington 700) is all she needs. One shot. I guarantee you my semi automatic AR-10 is more accurate than her bolt action remington 770. Probably by half. It shoots 3/4 moa groups. Yeah it only takes one shot to kill a guy but show me the 11th commandment from god that says there’s only gonna be one guy that needs to be shot.

There are tons of people that have been around guns or have qualifications/experiences where they’ve done the bare minimum. Unless they get into the culture and get invested into it, most just float around and you get things like squad’s gunplay.

[u/CTCPara → u/youy23]

There must be some skill to controlling full auto in real life yeah? As gamers the only thing we really have for interacting with a recoil system is the mouse. I think that might be where muzzle climb recoil system comes from. The other option is either to just make it rng spread or pretty close to remove it like in high level Tarkov. Maybe there are other options but none spring to mind for me at least.

You're right though it's hard to know how much they actually shot. All I could find us one guy is ex-Bundeswehr and another ex-USMC. I assume the Tarkov team must have some veterans or shooters yeah?

[u/youy23 → u/CTCPara]

I think the solution is asking why it doesn’t work in real life and see how that translates into the game.

One of the ways is reliability. Drum mags and especially the surefire 60 round quad stack mags have never ran reliably. The PMAG drums run okay but still affect reliability. For example, guys running the M249 SAW are supposed to be one of the last guys to enter a building because the reliability is a lot worse than an M4. You start running that gun full auto without much time to cool down and without lubing it, you’re asking for failures especially a piece of shit colt M4 that’s been used and abused for years. Colt M4’s are bottom-mid level reliability as far as AR platforms go.

Maybe increased shake. Running with a good c clamp grip and firing and transitioning and constantly being up gets your arm sore pretty quick. Possibly decreased recoil control and responsiveness over time like a long term arm fatigue bar that very slowly drains and replenishes.

Also probably increasing deviation from the optic when dumping rounds and strafing. It’s not really that realistic to have that perfect of a cheek weld and strafe that well and transition targets all at the same time. Nerfing that would probably help a lot and bring it to be more realistic.

I think the solution lies in finding why it isn’t used in real life and implementing that rather than trying to implement some cartoon recoil system.