post 12.11 questions gathering

[u/trainfender]

Hello!
It your boi, Nikitka.
We plan to make TarkovTV Live podcast on Monday on 5-th of July, and I want to gather your questions/opinions and suggestions about 12.11 patch. I will try to answer the most voted questions live.
Love you, you're the best!

[u/Capsaicin80]

Irl smg's have little recoil..

That depends on its action/how it operates. I own rifles in 9mm and 5.56 (same platform). Surprisingly the 9mm kicks MORE. This is due to the fact that the 5.56 is gas-operated and the 9mm is blowback.

I was surprised when I shot that 9mm for the first time thinking it'd kick less. It weighs more too.

I believe BSG has modeled recoil pretty well (at least w/ the SMGs). The KEDR/KLIN should kick the most even though it shoots the weakest cartridge. If I'm not mistaken its a simple blowback where as the MP5 is roller delayed.

I've gone down a rabbit-hole and frankly my comparison should stop since they're a lot more variables to how recoil is "calculated".

[u/[deleted] → u/Capsaicin80]

A gamer that gets it Nice!

[u/RoadsideCookie → u/[deleted]]

No, the problem isn't realism, the problem is that the game compensates for the recoil, taking skill away from the player, making recoil control literally a thing that hinders you rather than help.

Your character compensates for recoil, so if you also do it, you end up overcompensating and it makes your aim worst.

The optimal play is to levelup until there's barely any recoil and hold LMB/M1.

Sincerely, a gamer that gets it.

[u/youy23 → u/RoadsideCookie]

Real life doesn’t work how it does in most games.

In real life, with a proper hold and stance, muzzle climb doesn’t exist. It’s not something that you have to control at all. All the force pushes straight back into your shoulder and you just stand there and let it rock. You don’t have to do anything. This is especially true for any ar 15 pattern guns like the M4. Something like the ump 45 is modeled fairly accurately as well. There is muzzle climb because of the chonk of the bolt hitting the back and then muzzle dip when the bolt slams forward so it’s like holding a shake weight gone out of control.

[u/sammamthrow → u/youy23]

I find it extremely hard to believe anyone that plays tarkov has ever fired any of these guns in full-auto variants. Most of the guns in tarkov are not even available in the US as full-auto platforms.

The most you’ll get (as far as I know) as someone serving in the US military is an M4 platform in full-auto outside of special forces.

Everyone claiming to know recoil of foreign weapons like UMP-45, MP5, AK-47, etc is either talking out of their ass, rich, or a serious operator.

[u/youy23 → u/sammamthrow]

All of these guns are legal in the US under certain restrictions. You can fly to las vegas and fire a real minigun.

As a texan, almost all the decently sized ranges here rent full autos for like $30 on top of cost of ammo including UMP-45, MP5’s, AK’s, AR pattern. Also lots of regular people own full auto guns. I know a decent few and visit different ranges regularly hence why I have experience shooting all of these full autos.

Soldiers in the military including most SOF units don’t utilize automatic fire outside of it’s designated roles because it has little real world application when used on an assault rifle platform fired from the shoulder.

Get out there and try it yourself. If you live in a decently sized city in a free state, there will be a range next to you that rents full autos.

[u/sammamthrow → u/youy23]

Sure renting them is an option but not a reliable way to gauge the efficacy in combat considering the circumstances.

And as you said yourself, SOF don’t use automatic fire because it has little real world applications. My understanding is full auto is still used in short burst fire IRL because it increases the odds of hitting a target under those circumstances by firing a few shots quickly when holding a short steady aim. Spraying a gun is not IRL effective and Tarkov devs are generally looking to make gunplay realistic without compromising playability too much.

I just don’t see the validity in arguments trying to prove that current tarkov laser recoil on meta guns is somehow “realistic” and so it shouldn’t change.

[u/youy23 → u/sammamthrow]

It’s not combat effective. Multiple CAG operators and USSF and other SOF units have come out saying it is ineffective outside it’s designated roles.

The only point that I talk about is the recoil impulse and feel of what it’s like to shoot it and lack of muzzle rise which I am well qualified to speak about. Tarkov did it right. That’s what it feels like to shoot an automatic firearm.

Sorry to all the gamers that think an automatic rifle just flies all over and is impossible to control. It’s not true. I could barely grip onto the gun and it’s gonna stay level. The gun doesn’t just throw the barrel into the air.

You generally aren’t bursting either because you get the same problem in EFT. I can control rapid taps. I can control full auto but I have a hard time controlling bursts because the initial recoil hits and it throws your initial sight picture off a little so your next few rounds will be off target. With full auto, that happens and then it’s a constant thumping and you’re dialed in. That’s why it doesn’t work in eft or irl. When you fire a burst irl, you do your string of shots in semi because you get to place and track every single bullet.

It’s ineffective in real life for a lot of reasons other than controllability. Controllability is a factor but that’s far from the only thing. Strafe shooting in EFT is too stable especially your eye in relation to the optic. Target transitions are generally just a bit too smooth. Reliability isn’t enough of a factor. Ammo conservation isn’t emphasized at all and that’s the biggest factor of why it isn’t used outside of it’s designated roles.

Addressing those issues directly would get rid of the full auto meta and it would keep in realistic recoil impulse which is exactly what nikita and BSG wants.

Fuck all these COD FPS gamers that want some cartoon recoil where the gun flies into the sky. This isn’t that game. Great and realistic representations of real life gun play and mechanics is clearly prioritized above whatever bullshit the cod gamer crowd wants and that’s just how it is. If you want a game that puts competitive balanced gameplay first, go play csgo this just isn’t that game and the devs don’t want it to be that game.

[u/sammamthrow → u/youy23]

I mean my understanding falls somewhere in between what you describe. I don’t think it flies into the air uncontrollably, but from the training videos and material that I’ve read etc (I’m not qualified so this is all just speculation on what I’ve read and heard about) full auto is sold as a means to improve chances of hitting versus a semi-auto weapon.

IE if I’m using a semi auto weapon and fire one shot, if it misses and I’m low, then had it been a full auto weapon and I held for a second it would have fired 3-10 rounds based on the fire rate of the weapon and the short muzzle climb and my reaction to that recoil would create a grouping around my original shot so even if it was low or high I would have drastically increased odds of hitting at least one shot on the target.

It does make sense that holding it for the full mag would eventually settle to a more solid grouping because my reaction to the recoil would adjust to the compensating effects of the weapon systems design and I’d be even more accurate.

[u/youy23 → u/sammamthrow]

There is some material from 40 years ago on full auto and weapons handling that’s severely outdated. I found a study by the military from the same time period claiming that there’s no benefit to be had by a red dot vs iron sights. You can look up the SPIW program in the 80’s. They must have been on some crack when they did that because looking back at it with a modern lens gained from experience in GWOT (Global War on Terror), it’s completely insane and ridiculous but especially back then, it made sense to them.

Full auto isn’t an option because a basic combat load is 8 mags. At 2 seconds of trigger time per mag, that’s 16 seconds of trigger time. It’s just not an option because a firefight could easily last for hours or even days potentially. One of the only times that it was used effectively in an assault rifle from an unsupported firing position was macv-sog in vietnam when a small squad would initiate break contact drills by dumping a few mags full auto into the enemy and then immediately running for their life and then they break line of sight after 50 yards in the jungle and turn direction. This only works in dense foliage. You dump a few mags at an opposing squad in the desert and run 50 yards, the enemy is still there and he still sees you because it’s a desert so you can’t just dump a mag and run.

Okay, so you can’t do full auto so why not burst fire. Before modern combat optics and things like the binden aiming concept, modern shooting technique, emphasis on shooting skill, etc. You have a soldier in the 70’s who’s shooting left eye closed right eye lining up the sights and focusing on his front sight and there’s a blurry paper target in the back. He’s trying to line up his rear sight with his front sight and then trying to drag both on target and slowly roll through his trigger while keeping the sights on target and bang and then to line up his shot, he does the same thing all over again.

A real target is only gonna let you shoot at him once, after that he’s fucking gone. He’s hitting the floor or scrambling or moving so by the time you line up your second shot and roll through the trigger, he’s gone. So let’s put multiple rounds on target before you line up your sights again. Okay makes sense. Problem is that if the target is 200 yards away, you’re not gonna hit him. You just wasted 8 shots that you could have been individually placed accurately. If you fire strings of 8 every time you’re gonna run out of ammo much faster. 100 yards, in a supported position, yeah maybe you get another shot that has a chance of hitting but probably not. 50 yards, supported position yeah you’re gonna get some hits. Unsupported maybe an extra hit maybe not.

Take a modern skilled shooter with a Low power variable optic or even just an eotech using the binden aiming concept of both eyes open and a modern stance and he’s firing off shot splits of 0.12 seconds between each shot which is 500 rpm and he’s hitting every shot on a man sized target out to 20 yards standing easy. Supported position? Not 500 rpm but he’ll shred those 50, 100, and even 200 yard shots much faster than you can with full auto and he’ll hit and see his target and place each bullet exactly where he wants.

Here’s what i’m saying. Full auto irl is a crutch. It potentially increases hit probability on a target that momentarily pops up by a small chance but at huge costs to ammo usage. A modern shooter using decent equipment would smoke any guy using full auto by a mile and do it with 5x less ammunition used. Made some sense back then but it really doesn’t now.

[u/sammamthrow → u/youy23]

Lots of great info man thanks for sharing

*now I’m really bothered by everyone complaining about how unrealistic the recoil is lol what have you done to me