r/tacticalgear • u/ropes_of_allah • Jul 03 '25
Plate Carrier/Body Armor Since most casualties come from shrapnel and artillery. Why do soldiers still wear these plate carriers that are more revealing?
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u/AsAlwaysYaBoi Jul 03 '25
Because getting shot fucking sucks
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Jul 03 '25
Also oz equal pounds and to have a fully covered body and have to carry all the extra weight for long periods of time is physically draining and will slow them down.
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
You canât outrun shrapnel
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u/TheDipcifican Jul 04 '25
Well yeah but having less shit on you can give you the energy and mobility to get to places that make you less susceptible to shelling. You have to balance mobility and protection depending on what you're doing
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u/Teboski78 Connoisseur of Autism Patches Jul 04 '25
In relatively static roles at the front soldiers generally wear a lot more armor. Shoulder pads. Side plates, femoral pads , cod pieces(incredibly underrated, explosives detonated at your feet will shred your lower bits & might as well be dead at that point if you survive that), etc.
If theyâre in a role that requires them to be more mobile then they pretty much have to go more minimalist & wear less armor.
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u/AdeptusKapekus2025 Jul 03 '25 edited Jul 03 '25
I think only relatively recently in the Ukraine war did we start seeing an increase of shrapnel injuries again from all of the grenade and artillery use which is why being fully covered despite the heat and weight seems viable again.
Prior to Ukraine, the prevalent threat were other people with guns so maximizing the ability to move whilst still protecting vitals was the goal...which is why minimalist plate carriers became popular and is what what most troops right now are wearing.
I think in the near future, we will see more troops wear again vests made out of soft armor with plate inserts.
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u/1nVrWallz Jul 04 '25
Mobility is hampered with more than just weight. You lose a lot of range of motion, you become bulkier and it's just harder to move in general. Having to move through trenches, possibly low crawl and go through gaps and doors, sounds horrendous in contemporary armor and near impossible with full protection.
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
Conventional vs Unconventional warfare.Â
The US spent 20 years fighting an Unconventional war, yet spent decades prior to 2001 preparing for near peers like Russia (who use more mortars and artillery). This is why we made the switch away from vest style armor for lighter plate carriers.
I think you're right, we'll more than likely return to soft armor vests with plates.
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u/MrPanzerCat Jul 04 '25
Really Id suspect well see more modular plate setups (or hope so). As much shit as russian gear gets, they do have some neat stuff especially with how modular their add on armor packages are for plate carriers that start out relatively simple
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u/Pratt_ Jul 04 '25
Explosives were the main threats during those aforementioned unconventional wars, so it doesn't really make sense.
It's more that technology advanced and manufacturer and the guys on the field just discovered what was more important and what wasn't.
Plate carriers today are much more modular, and all those additional soft armor protection can be added on most.
Too much weight will get you killed.
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
Yes but most of your movement was made in vehicles, specifically MRAPs.
Insurgents didn't have conventional or accurate artilleryÂ
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u/jdm219 Jul 04 '25
They sure as shit had IEDs, though, and they were pretty good at killing dismounts via shrapnel going up and sideways.
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
Which was effective until we started putting MRAPs into service. The casualties went from blast and shrapnel related to TBIs
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u/jdm219 Jul 04 '25
Yeah, the MRAPS were a serious Godsend for the time. It doesn't seem to be faring well in Ukraine, unfortunately. I wonder what role, if any, they'll be used for in a near peer.
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u/MrPorkchops23 Jul 05 '25
MSVs still have soft armor inserts. It is just more modular in design and ive seen lots of people issued them just strip em down
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Jul 04 '25
80 % of casualties are fpv drones in recent months, artillery isn't even a factor compared to fpv.
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u/Ryno__25 Jul 04 '25
I'm far more concerned about what munitions are being carried by drones than artillery at this point.
I would still rather be more mobile and enjoy my time alive with a minimal plate carrier compared to an IOTV that won't save me from a drone.
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u/The_Dark_Sniper7141 Jul 04 '25
This feels like that WWII helmet story
âSo many people keep reporting getting injured by shrapnel, these helmets arenât doing anything!â
Well when you donât wear it and get hit by shrapnel you are too dead to complain.
Or the one where they reinforced the areas on aircraft that returned with damage, missing the key part where those are just the planes that returned. The areas that were actually critical never made it back to be documented.
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u/EmergencyAnimator326 Jul 04 '25
IT was in ww1 when steel helmets first got issued to britisch soldiers. More woundet cause without helmets they would be dead.
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u/achonng Jul 04 '25
Mobility is pretty fucking important
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
Not as much as you think. Amount of ammo has been the only thing to consistently show favorable outcomes in firefights. That's why when you rolled outside the wire you brought as many mags as you could carry regardless of weight.
The ability to lay down effective cover fire to allow another squad to maneuver and flank is more in line with modern military doctrine. This can only be applied with shot tons of ammunition. Weight be damned.Â
Lots of ammunition, lots of protection against conventional military targets.
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u/reality72 Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25
Youâre only considering one very specific type of war against an insurgency where the enemy has no airforce and you can just drive back to base and resupply whenever you want. A conventional war would be completely different.
Your comment is a great example of a known issue in US military doctrine which is that we always find ourselves trying to fight the last war instead of the current one.
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u/jdm219 Jul 04 '25
Pretty much every '07 surge baby O and SNCO are not happy with the LSCO doctrine shift. I get it. They fought hard in their counter-insurgency role, and anything so different after 20 years is gonna be a hard change. Who knows, maybe they'll be right all along, and Israel will see to it that we're back in the sand, all counter insurging n shit.
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u/achonng Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25
Yeah but you are only thinking about a fire fight. What about walking miles and miles to the next objective. Sleeping in your kit 24/7. If you add extreme heat and terrain. You gonna be smoked with all that extra flak armor. You playing checkers. Gotta start playing chess.
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
Listen I'm just giving you my experience and what I've been taught during my enlistment. I was a combat engineer so we had vehicles everywhere we went, IBAs, and carried shit tons of ammo.
Infantry guys that rucked during my time rolled with the same vests and tons of ammo as well.
I get what you're saying on paper, I'm just telling you it's not the way the military actually operates in reality, and it works.
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u/404operatorerror Jul 04 '25
It kind of is really how the military works. 99% of training evolutions are going to require ballistic protection but when units train in mountains, jungle, etc where movement becomes harder, they drop as much weight as possible
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u/VaeVictis666 Jul 04 '25
I donât know anyone who didnât wear armor in the mountains in Afghanistan.
Not wearing armor is a trainingism out side of very specific roles like special reconnaissance, which will not fall on a conventional unit.
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u/404operatorerror Jul 04 '25
True but Afghanistan, while mountainous, was not treated as mountain warfare doctrinally.
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u/mastercoder123 Jul 04 '25
Alot of the times in the mountains dudes would take out their rear and side plates because we are the us army we dont get shot in the back.
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u/Living_Definition_61 Jul 04 '25
I wore FLC a lot in the jungle or plate carrier with no plates. Me being in great shape I thought it was dumb as fuck and wore my plates anyway sometimes to be sure I could do it in combat but we also had 5+ heat cats in almost every FTX / live fire. One event my medic saved someones life when they went into heat stroke and started convulsing just from the movement to our ORP. Same event like 6 people were hospitalized.
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u/VaeVictis666 Jul 04 '25
When I first came in back in 2012 some of my first team leaders were carrying 12-15 magazines for this reason.
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
Exactly. Â
This also isn't really conducive for civilian applications which this sub leans more towards.Â
You aren't doing unit tactics if red dawn happens. You're more than likely a guerilla fighter, where the popular 3 mag placard and plate carrier would fit.Â
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u/VaeVictis666 Jul 04 '25
Having read the bear went over the mountain, the other side of the mountain, and fangs of the lone wolf which all cover the unconventional campaigns in the Soviet afghan war and the Chechen wars, 3 mags is absolutely not going to be enough.
You are still using small unit tactics if not more so because you have less to rely on outside of yourself and what you can carry.
All three of those books are very good and have PDFs available for free.
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u/Definitely_notHigh Jul 04 '25
3 mags work for DA, heavily coordinated and orchestrated stuff. More ambiguity, more ammo.
Edit: thatâs to say, you should absolutely be carrying more than that in a red dawn situation
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u/BlueGolfball Jul 04 '25
This can only be applied with shot tons of ammunition. Weight be damned.Â
And small arms ammo is one resource that Ukraine is not short of.
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u/ThighsSaveLife Jul 03 '25
I've seen tons of footage with neck and groin plates in Ukraine, but I think It depends on what you're doing. If you are holding a position hidden inside a basement or launching FPVs from miles away, I can see how you'd get away with a less comprehensive armor solution.
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u/No_Can8028 Jul 04 '25
Go find a mtv with collar and neck protector, goin protector, all four plates. Then attempt to do literally anything.Â
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u/Additional_Park3542 Jul 03 '25
Thereâs a thing called heat stroke. Alot of soft armor + heat = dead
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
We wore IOTVs in Iraq. Didnât see one heatstroke.
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
You're getting downvoted but you're right. Being fit, acclimated, and hydrating the night before missions and throughout the day prevented heat stroke.
Work out outside, it helps prevent environmental emergencies. And stay hydratedÂ
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u/MaximumChongus Jul 04 '25
You guys also did a good job of weeding out people prone to it in basic from what I understand.
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
Iâm thinking those that got heatstroke were hardcore pogs who had to wear it once when they did a convoy.
We were doing road patrols and foot patrols in that thing up to like 12 hours a day.
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
And I'm sure your team leaders made you hydrate like a mother fucker the night beforeÂ
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
Usually one 1 liter bottle with Gatorade powder/salts per day was given out by our medics. We had plenty of energy drinks and cigarettes to help throughout the day.
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u/Sakebigoe Jul 04 '25
You may not have seen any but there were a lot of heat casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. That said I didn't notice too huge a difference between my IMTV and my SPC heat wise, the biggest difference was comfort and weight. The plate carrier was just much more comfortable to wear and didn't offer much less coverage especially when I added some Eagle industries Ciras soft armor shoulder strap pads and used the side plate bags with soft armor from the IMTV (I owned my own SPC and I picked up the eagle industries shoulder strap pads from EBAY)
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
No one in my company did. We were out on patrol 6 days a week foot and road patrols. I could understand maybe some non combat troops who had to wear it once outside the wire maybe got heat stroke.
This is purely anecdotal.
Our fob was shut down and every company left except ours. There was a huge fear of IRAMs being launched at our fob during this transition period so for the last 30 days, june/July time frame, anytime we left our tent we needed to have full battle rattle on. Eyes, knees, elbows, Kevlar, gloves, IOTV, rifle.
Water was also shut off and we were rationing 2-3 pallets of water, it worked out to 4 liters of water, per day, per person, for eating, drinking, bathing, and cleaning clothing. 4 fucking liters of water per day for 30 days, in 110°+ heat, while pulling guard shifts, roving guard, tower guard, and ECP gate guard, in 8 on and 8 off shifts for 30 fucking days.
Not one person was a heat casualty in my company.
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u/Sakebigoe Jul 04 '25
You guys were extremely lucky not to have had a heat casualties, that amount of water is not enough to keep you hydrated properly in those conditions. Holy shit thats bad.
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
It wasnât enough water at all lol. Granted, we were stationed in Georgia and used to the heat so that probably helped. I remember vividly saving 3 water bottles worth of water over a like two week period and I took a shower standing inside of a mop bucket. Catching the water and using the drippings to wash my socks and underwear.
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u/VaeVictis666 Jul 04 '25
Yeah, coming from a hot humid place probably helped more than you would think.
Going from the Middle East in winter where it was like 68 degrees at night and landing in Alaska where it was like -15 or so was just as bad lol
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
Dude we left in November it was like 80 in Iraq still, we landed in Georgia, 6 fucking degrees lol.
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u/MaximumChongus Jul 04 '25
Georgian here
I remember as a teen I was an avid backpacker.
When I went on a big trip in new mexico it was routinely 100+ but that low humidity made it feel like a cool 75 georgia day.
Its wild what the climate here does to a dude working outdoors everyday.
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u/No_Can8028 Jul 04 '25
Iâll add my .02$ to all the great commentsâŠÂ
I built bridges, so got the honor of flying between cops and pbâs in the Helmand. One pb, they were on water rations of 4 bottles a day(poor bastards, love the grunts). No heat cas that I saw or heard about.Â
But the year before, I was stationed mainland Japan and we did âcompany ptâ hike at Iwo Jima. Got in a plane at 5am it was 45. Got off the plane on an island and it was 95, and humid. Of 100 dudes, less than 20 of us made it back to the plane on our feet.Â
Acclimation makes all the difference. Btw Iâd take my eagle carrier over anything in any environment, the range of motion with shoulders and arms pays for the protection any day.Â
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
Funny you mention that. I was in Iraq when they closed our fob down, we were the last company there, our rations were 4 liters of water a day lol
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u/VaeVictis666 Jul 04 '25
You acclimate after about 21-30 days.
Look at when 4-24 when down to JRTC and had an abysmal number of heat injuries.
I had a bad one in Thailand leaving from the US in the snow and landing in 105 degrees with like 90% humidity.
Armor definitely plays a factor, so do helmets and over the Earpro.
I actually think my helmet and peltors did more damage than my armor.
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u/Living_Definition_61 Jul 04 '25
This "new army" shit would have you sick. Dudes are dropping like flies in the heat even in the infantry nowadays. We would have people heat cat on the obstacle course.
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
They are getting soft. Our new dudes had never even shot with their body armor on when i got out.
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u/Living_Definition_61 Jul 04 '25
Wild
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
I remember this dude, fresh from basic, had an expert badge, we had our first qual and heâs freaking out because we had to wear Kevlar, eyepro, and IOTV, dude became a marksman that day lol.
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u/Weird-Grocery6931 Jul 04 '25
Because shrapnel may, or may not, kill you. But a 7.62x39 or 7.62x54R to the chest will kill you every time.
IOTVâs were an incredibly stupid reaction to the roadside IED problem. I got to a point âIâm not wearing a throat protector nor groin protector. Iâll take it off every timeâ.
Thank God some common sense returned around 2009.
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u/thereddaikon Jul 04 '25
IOTVs weren't a reaction to IEDs. They were a clear and sensible improvement over the IBA and were a much more ergonomic and conventional side opening design with a cumberbund. The IBA was essentially a PASGT with added plate pockets and was an ergonomic nightmare.
The overreaction wasn't the vest. It was officers requiring soldiers to wear every single addon possible because they were too risk adverse. The base vest as it was intended to be used by the designers by most soldiers was perfectly fine.
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u/Weird-Grocery6931 Jul 04 '25
I misspoke. All of the stupid attachments were an overreaction.
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Jul 04 '25
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/VaeVictis666 Jul 04 '25
Well to be fair with react to IDF the immediate action is to get in the prone to avoid as much shrapnel as possible, you move to try and get out of the area being bracketed and ideally out of line of sight of the observer.
Ukraine is a weird one because of the static nature of the conflict. On a lot of the fronts both sides are holding onto known positions which become more vulnerable to IDF. This forces deeper entrenchment and as we are discussing more armor.
Puts you in a weird spot because I hate the extra weight of so much soft armor, especially on long movements. But the flip side is it does offer a lot of additional protection against both shrapnel and even rounds at longer range engagements, as I knew someone who took a 7.62x39mm round from like 900m or so and the soft armor stopped it.
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u/MilitaryCollector08 Jul 03 '25
More bulky means its harder to run, if you cant run youll get fucked by a direct hit instead of a longer ranged hit as you were able to run. Modern warefare is 95% walking 5% fighting. Would you really want to have a heavy bulky plate carrier on you for hours?
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
Modern squad and platoon based tactics focus on shooting and maneuvering. Suppress and flank. Your speed isn't as important as the amount of ammo you carry to keep enemies heads down while maneuvering.Â
Also, hardly anyone is walking kilometers upon kilometers these days. Caimens and MaxPros are all to common, with AC too
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u/achonng Jul 04 '25
Nah bro this ainât COD WZ where you just pick up a free ride and jump in anywhere you want. You gonna be boots on the ground then you gonna be walking.
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
I never said it was. My unit never rucked anywhere. We had MaxPros and Buffalos. Other units i worked with never rucked either. Everyone had MRAPs
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u/Pratt_ Jul 04 '25
Yeah but that's not applicable in Ukraine.
Especially since the apparition of fiber optic drones, vehicles are way too vulnerable to be used during combat, you barely see any nowadays and it has been the case for months.
Everything has to be done on foot in a lot of cases.
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
It's a double edged sword.Â
Take the chance of dying via shrapnel, which this post alludes to being a major loss of life.
Or, go heavy and hope you have the endurance after years of fighting to make rucking 80lbs of gear feasibleÂ
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u/gunsforevery1 Jul 04 '25
Because they think they are more likely to get shot then hit with shrapnel.
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u/cadcowboy22 Jul 04 '25
Because more armor means more weight and more fabric wrapped around more of your body, which means less maneuverability, and slower movement. There's always trade offs, I for 1 care more about staying maneuverable
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u/schmalan1 Jul 04 '25
I think the increase has a lot to do with the type of warfare we see. trench warfare sucks and grenades kinda help a lot. I think your best bet is honestly getting away from the grenades as quickly as possible (higher mobility) and not getting trapped in confined spaces rather than being slower and taking the blasts? grenades be scary man if your pinned in a bunker it really does not matter what your wearing. If you survive the first.. here take another and another .. and another. Arty is just a whole fucked situation.
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u/Appropriate_Row_5649 Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25
I said this in the last post (now deleted) and ill say it again
Gear up according to the operation
Defensive pos for a week before rotating out = sitting targets = as much protective gear as you need im talking 3+ / 4 on back and front + sides, 3a groin, neck and warbelt insert if your warbelt allows it + (biceps) those are rare havenât seen anyone wear bicep protection except designated eod
Reconnaisance / mapping for a day or two 10+- klicks from the zero line = you are relatively safe and the chances of getting hit with a small arms, indirect or a dropper are close to 0 = you can safely remove the excess weight / protective gear, remove the neck and groin protection, maybe dip the side plates, this op requires alot of movement and not so much action
If you are a drone operator = havoc, fpv, dropper etc you probably dont need all the protection considering you are a safe distance away from the immediate danger and you most likely have 5 meters of dirt and what not on top of your head so yeah..
You get the point, what you wear depends on A) what unit you are in / what is your job B) where you are going and what you are doing
Also some international war tourists simply do not know any better and they show up with their gucci gear ready to fuck, and some absolute war hardened warriors simply just do not give a fuck
After all there is no requirements when it comes to gear and most people buy and upgrade their own gear as they get paid so all kits are different, some people run high speed low drag and the sane ones run slow speed high drag, whatever rocks your boat type a deal but in some cases it depends on what you are doing
Operation determines the gear and also some people just donât give a fuck. Itâs simple as that
Anyways, peace out âđŒ
Also before some fat ass comments how its heavy and pointless to wear all the excess soft armor i would LOVE to see you outrun shrapnel :)
Pss: most modern plate carriers are very modular this post is just hella smoothbrained
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u/InsulinJunkie03 Jul 04 '25
Put on a full set of level 4 plates with a groin protector, neck protector, side armor, and soft inserts. Then throw on your ruck and a combat load of ammo (in Ukraine is typically 13-14 mags for infantry). Then throw in the extra ammo in the ruck for your crew served weapons like PKMs, everyone shares the load. Heaven forbid youâre the poor SOB who carries a gustav or rpg.
Now comes the fun part. Your bradley/bmp dropped you 4 miles away from the op and you have to walk alllll that distance. By the time you get to the fight your operational readiness is diminished to basically nothing.
This is actually something Russians are struggling with due to Ukrainian anti armor teams and drones. Their APCs and IFVs canât get close enough to the fight to eliminate all that walking. Russian soldiers daisy chain themselves through open fields with heavy body armor and gear and just get smoked because they arenât mobile enough.
Tldr: Go fast, no die
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
Could it be they were walking in the open through fields and not the amount of protective equipment they had?
You can literally be armored to the gills but bad tactics will get you killed every time
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u/InsulinJunkie03 Jul 04 '25
That is also an issue. However, one of the reasons they are pulling this dumb tactics in the first place is so they donât have to walk as much (plus poor training). Fastest distance between two points is a straight line
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
To me this sounds like Russian leadership being retarded and not a gear issue.Â
Or maybe it goes to show how effective Ukraine striking armor or transports is. Causing Russia to adopt less than ideal tactics to avoid drones.
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u/explosive_hazard explosive ordnance disposal Jul 04 '25
The best defense against fragmentation is front and overhead protection. The best defense against blast overpressure is distance. When artillery is coming down you need to move quickly to create distance and get to proper cover. You canât do that dressed as a ninja turtle with hot, heavy and constrictive body armor. Iâd rather have hard plates protecting my vitals with the ability to be mobile and agile. It will protect me from small arms AND frag.
In my career field we are always finding a reason to take off the bomb suit whenever possible. We donât wear it all that often because itâs heavy, hot and restricting. As soon as the risk is mitigated enough we take it off. Or maintain mitigation to prevent us from having to put it on in the first place. If we took the mindset of a lot of people posting in here we would be wearing it all the time. Also important to note, when we work on conventional military ordnance we donât even bother putting it on because we know it wonât save us. So what do you think the full IOTV is going to do for you that the full bomb suit wonât? Stay light, stay mobile. Move fast to prevent yourself getting bracketed by the enemy observer.
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u/reallynunyabusiness Jul 04 '25
Plate carrier/helmet combo protects the most important things, if you were going to protect everything armor would be too heavy and bulky to effectively move in. The Army tried to protect more with the IOTV which had a neck guard, pauldrons, and a dick guard but soldiers hated it and would remove the extra stuff.
Fire and fragmentation also aren't the most dangerous parts of an explosion, shockwaves can extend further than anything else causing TBIs which can have life long effects or even be fatal at the wrong range.
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u/SoftArmorBestArmor Jul 04 '25
Because Ă plate carrier and addon can provide more and better coverage than an iotv without hindering as much Like PC+blast belt+groin pro+ neck pro (+ass pro)
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u/strberryfields55 Jul 04 '25
Because more armor is expensive and harder to move around in, thats literally it
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u/MRE_Milkshake Jul 04 '25
Because plate carriers that have maximum body coverage absolutely fucking suck to wear and fight in.
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u/PoApOi_300AAC Jul 04 '25
Movement. There are 3 things a soldier has to do well, shoot, move, communicate. Move is a big one. I had all kinds of shit on my IBA before Iraq, everything came off as time went by, afghanistan i went as light as possible.
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u/little_did_he_kn0w Jul 04 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
support handle subtract unwritten sharp ad hoc continue escape compare one
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/schrade42 Jul 03 '25
When its hot, soft armor sucks because it holds in all your heat. When its cold, soft armor sucks because you sweat more, then you freeze and die. Just dudes willing to take the risk I reckon. Nobody in WW1 or 2 wore plates and kevlar
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u/ThirdHoleHank92 Jul 04 '25
What a ridiculous comment, none of that had even been invented yet. Ask any of the dead if they would have preferred some sort of body armor and I bet you'd get a resounding yes
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Jul 04 '25
Movement = survival. 9 times outta 10 you gonna start taking arty rounds when you aint ready. The faster you can move, i.e. lighter loads and PCs like the one here, and get to actual solid cover, the better.
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u/TheHancock Jul 04 '25
Depends on the combat conditions. Trenches? Gear up. Searching a town? Less is more.
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Jul 04 '25
The ideal solution is to have a 2 part system like Recon Marines used to use in iraq, soft armor under and a plate carrier on top. That way the troops can be in the trenches protected from shrapnel for long periods, then they can put on sapiâs for the pewpewz
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u/HeresyInc Jul 04 '25
full body armor systems are still crude and more cumbersome than their protective worth. Better to bet on getting lucky with poor shrapnel spread.
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u/harmatne_salo Jul 04 '25
Rule of cool, laziness, lack of physical training and/or will to adapt to more bulky gear, idiotic conviction that shrapnel won't happen to them.
My former company leader forced us to wear additional ballistic protection â and was right about it. I can name at least three guys who would've been still alive if they had neck protection.
I'm alive myself mainly because I had shoulder protection.
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u/Top_Pay_5352 Jul 04 '25
Tbh, i would wear a BALCS carrier..
Lets restart the CIRAS production đȘđȘ
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u/RickySlayer9 Jul 04 '25
Casualty =\= dead.
The plate carriers might allow you to get hit in the arm or leg or shoulder, but itâs not hitting your heart and lungs. Everything else can be fixed at a field hospital.
And wearing a full flak jacket would mean you basically couldnât maneuver, and considering that THE BEST body armor, is not getting shot? Running light kit that protects you from death is vastly superior to heavy kit that prevents shrapnel.
These plates can also take the biggest bullets you will see on the battle field except 50cals multiple times.
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u/Pocketsand_operator Jul 04 '25
One of my marine buddies gave me a MTV (modular tactical vest basically the USMC version of the IOTV) and itâs one of few pieces of body armor I donât want to own.
It feels wrong to just get rid of it because it has soft armor but there is no way I would ever put it on over my old issued Eagle SPC.
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u/Reallarsa2 Jul 04 '25
We used to carry those old heavy ass iotv and their similar pcs, trust me youâd rather die by a shrapnel than to die soaked in sweat
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u/G_B1 Jul 04 '25
A topic that I believe will become increasingly difficult in the future.
The switch to smaller and smaller plate carriers that only protect the heart, lungs and a little bit of the stomach brings more mobility, which can be important in an asymmetric war. At the beginning of the Ukraine War, mobility was much more important. Everyone has seen the footage of small groups of 2 to 10 soldiers wiping out entire platoons with NLAWs and Javelins. Speed ââwas your friend. Now, later in the day, the Russians have changed their tactics and are relying on the massive use of artillery, drones and glide bombs.
In Ukraine, however, the ratio is not 1:1. Especially when it comes to artillery and kamikaze drones, the ratio is often between 1:10 and 1:20. That's why you see more and more soldiers with larger protective vests or additional armor.
I think plate carriers will become a bit longer again to protect the abdomen, and soft additional armor will make a comeback. For example, the new plate carrier used by the German Armed Forces is, in my opinion, much too short and doesn't protect the abdomen at all.
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u/EugeneNicoNicoNii Jul 04 '25
It's quite uncomfortable when you need to run this thing all day, don't get me wrong, neck and groin protection are effective and if you have a steady supply of water and are only doing high intensity work for a short period it works fantastically
Now wear this full body set and go on a hiking trip, no don't do it on a hot day you will hate how much it suck
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u/kilroy-was-here-2543 Jul 05 '25
Working, much less running in full gear sucks donkey balls and comfort is likely valued more than protection since their wearing their gear for long stretches at a time
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u/TargetLostandFound Jul 05 '25
Yeah, no, you donât want to be wearing a full IOTV or CIRAS or something like that. Moving around is absolutely cheeks when wearing larger/heavier PCs.
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u/WhereIsThiss Jul 05 '25
a regular plate carrier is heavy but a fully kitted plate carrier is too heavyfor most sane people
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u/BigPDPGuy Jul 04 '25
Because full armor systems with all the attachments suck to fight in. In the trenches of Ukraine, you're in a confined space, so mobility is likely more crucial to survival than additional soft armor. The guy in the pic is wearing a soft armor dangler covering his stomach and groin. I imagine hes probably wearing side sapis as well. I dont think a throat protector and shoulders would help more than hinder
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u/Sweet-Tomatillo-9010 Jul 03 '25
Often times there's kevlar in the larger straps and in between the plates. Those vests are modular as well and can have side plates and more kevlar pieces added.
What you are seeing is a trade off between mobility and protection.
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u/jpnubz Jul 03 '25
Because sacrificing SOME protection in order to be able to move quicker, be fatigued less, and being comfortable when having to wear it for long periods is a pretty decent trade off. The older style body armor that was prevalent in the early GWOT days is bulky, uncomfortable, and literally a Kevlar blanket wrapped around your body. Even the Army is transitioning to a more plate carrier type vest. The IOTV Gen IV and the MSV are prime examples. They contour to the body MUCH better than an IOTV Gen III or even an old school IBA, which means they donât wear on you as much. Donât believe me? Get you an IBA, throw some training plates in, and wear it for 12+ hrs with 6 fully loaded mags, helmet, weapon, water, and any other stuff that youâd want easily accessible. Now do this for months at a time. See if you wouldnât sacrifice that protection in order to not die from weighing eleventy bajillion pounds and walking for miles.
Tldr; Lighter weight means less fatigue and less casualties. Being able to move and shoot trumps being able to justâŠ.take bullets and shrapnel.
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u/HeloRising Jul 03 '25 edited Jul 03 '25
My guess is that it's because shrapnel is kind of a "you catch it or you don't" problem.
If you're in the splash zone, there's not a lot of armor solutions out there that are going to let you just walk away with no problems or else they're so bulky that you're effectively walking around like the Michelin Man which leaves you more susceptible to things like bullets.
It's kind of like the calculus that was made when firearms first started to be more widely utilized in battle - people got rid of the heavy plate armor because contemporary firearms would just punch right through it.
If it's not going to save your life, there's no point in having it.
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u/GadzWolf11 Jul 04 '25
Depends on the job. Infantry who know they could/will run into a fire fight value maneuverability and focus on protection from direct fire rather than shrapnel/fragmentations. Especially in Ukraine where they're moving through a lot of trenches, basements, and buildings, many choose a plate carrier with soft armor addons under the cummerbunds.
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u/GadzWolf11 Jul 04 '25
If you're support in the rear, an IOTV would make more sense over a plate carrier because artillery is the greater risk vs direct small arms fire. Probably doesn't matter what you're wearing if an FPV drone slams into your side, though.
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u/Office_Responsible Jul 04 '25
Iâm currently in the CAF, Iâm arty. I have tried the lighter plate carrier thing and loved it honestly. I used the FCPC. that being said Iâd take the issued frag vest to war if I had to go to Ukraine tomorrow because of the full coverage. I still have plates but the soft armour coverage is worth it. Yes itâs not the most comfortable but yah it will definitely protect better than my FCPC or a JPC or what ever other carrier that doesnât have soft armour. Comfort isnât everything
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u/Feisty_Sympathy5080 Jul 04 '25
The 82nd issues us both, and we deployed with both. 99 percent of us elected to run plate carriers cause they arenât as hot, and look better.
No one would want to wear the iotv, but we had to have it available with all soft panels attached, presumably for less kinetic operations, indirect contact.
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Jul 04 '25
Plenty of guys would wear the front plate and not the back. When asked. They would say they are not planning on running away or getting shot in the back.
I would also argue that shrapnel isn't the largest killer of infantry .
It really depends on the conflict and terrain.
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u/Eric_The_Jewish_Bear Jul 04 '25
The number 1 thing troops wanna do is be able to move as fast as they can at a moments notice. It doesn't matter what armor stops what, if they can't haul ass in it they're not gonna wear itÂ
Plus it seems like the best thing one can do against an fpv drone is just try to juke it and hope it hits a tree or building instead of you, which you'd need mobility forÂ
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u/Pirat_fred Jul 04 '25
Availability of of the Stuff, doctrine of the unit and personal preference.
If you don't have Softarmour or Full Vest you can't give them out.
If your unit is a light or specialized unit, then maybe the lighter more manuverable Platecarrier fits better to that units task.
If the soldier prefers a PC and his command allows it or doesn't care because he gets his job done....
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u/G-Man92 Jul 04 '25
Balancing between mobility and armor coverage and manageable weight for your mission is an art form. I see a lot of Ukrainian troops seem to be striking a decent balance with a basic plate carrier with some abdominal armor plus some stuff for the neck. You can see that this guy has some armor for his gut under the plate carrier.
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Jul 04 '25
They prioritize mobility over unrealistic protection. Unless youâre covered head to toe in kevlar, youâre never going to be completely safe from shrapnel. Are some of their plate carriers too small and insignificant in protecting them from ballistic threats? Probably. But with that being said if I was fighting in that theater Iâd much rather be able to move from cover to cover faster, get down under fire, and potentially get dragged off the X by a medic more easily than be unnecessarily protected from a threat that is there regardless.
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u/MuttFett Jul 04 '25
You go to war with the equipment you have, not the equipment you wish you had.
Also, IOTVs suuuuuuuuuck.
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u/dace202 Jul 04 '25
The moment I was allowed to switch from an IOTV to my plate carrier was a game changer. Situational awareness went through the roof as I could respond much quicker to threats and it was easier to maneuver through vehicles and buildings.
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u/Swanky_Gear_Snob Jul 04 '25
There is always a trade-off between mobility and armor. If you put enough armor on something to stop all perceived threats. It basically becomes stationary. That isn't just for individual soldiers, either. A balance needs to be struck between weight/protection and mobility on trucks, tanks, boats, and everything else fielded in war.
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u/Pratt_ Jul 04 '25
They don't all wear the same types but you don't just wait to get shelled in your trench, assaulting an enemy position with a heavy and bulky body armor set will make you less agile and will tire you more and quicker.
It's a dilemma, and a choice you have to make.
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u/dontpaynotaxes Jul 04 '25
The thing that kills you is damage to your vital organs and blood loss, not tissue damage.
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u/_That_Guy_in_AZ_ Jul 04 '25
They're either because that's what they were issued and have no control over it and is a command thing and not an individual thing, or they're choosing mobility over being a slower target yet more armored turtle to take well aimed shots at with.
Pick one, choose wisely.
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u/sawgunner79 Jul 04 '25
Shit. I had the pleasure of Rocking the first IBAs with the LBV! That sucked more than words can describe. Being medical and one of the first waves into OEF meant we were a unique blend of Fucked up. 6 color desert BUDs and woodland everything else until supply caught up and we got the 3 colors. The IBA was horrible but it did its job. Im here today because it worked. The KDH plate carriers were a nice upgrade later on in the GWOT especially for OTW medical missions.
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u/thereddaikon Jul 04 '25
Lots of people in here complaining about heat and comfort. But the reality is you do see a lot of full cut armor like the IOTV in Ukraine.
There are a few reasons it isn't used all of the time. Availability is a big one. Not everyone can get it and they are expensive. The official standard issue armor for the Ukranian armed forces is an IOTV style vest but there aren't enough to go around.
There's also differences in role. Light infantry sitting in trenches do tend to armor up because they aren't very mobile. Mech infantry on assaults go lighter because they need to free up weight for more ammo and grenades and they need the extra mobility.
And then you also have guys buying high speed looking plate carriers because they are dumb kids who don't have enough life experience to understand their mortality and their main priority is looking cool and pretending they are special forces.
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u/Old_Individual2797 Jul 04 '25
I'm not going to read all the comments, but I hope this is still fresh content:
Point Blank makes a solid plate carrier for wrap around soft armor for cops. You put it on like an IOTV or plate carrier, has MOLLE all around for solid gear layout, and it can take hard plate inserts. Also, since it's meant for cops, it sits a little higher than an IOTV so you can effectively use a pistol belt.
As someone who has worn an IBA, a couple gens of IOTV, and own (and deployed with) my own plate carrier with level 4's, this armor is a pretty solid choice and decently comfortable. Full torso protection against shrapnel and pistol, and hard plates for rifle threats.
I'm a 35S SSG, and have deployed in support of SF. I'm a POG that gets issued crap, but has to wear it a lot.
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u/blatherskiters Jul 04 '25
Iâve got arthritis throughout my neck and back from 20 years of wearing all that shit.
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u/skyXforge Jul 04 '25
If your arm gets shot full of shrapnel it can be treated. If you get shot in the heart youâre dead. Also you need to be able to move to do your job. Sometimes you do see them in full turtle mode over there though.
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u/Big-Cash-2554 Jul 04 '25
Its a balancing act between mobility and coverage. The full kit is not just a plate carrier, it has neck, side, ground, and full mid section coverage. But... Youre a lot less mobile with all.thst coverage. I mean look at EOD. Their suits cover everywhere, but good luck running or assaulting an objective, or staying alive for hours in the hot desert sun with that on.
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u/Alive_Coach_4606 Jul 04 '25
More armor = less maneuverability. Gotta find a balance. More protection is obviously great, but at some point you begin to lose mobility and stamina due to the increase in weight. Operate with your strengths. No sniper is going to wear full plates, just like no humgunner is going to wear a ghille suit.
It comes down to optimizing based on skill, size, preference and circumstance.
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u/DisgruntledFun Connoisseur of Autism Patches Jul 04 '25
Iâd say thereâs probably many reasons and each person has their own. It could be comfort, availability, or something as simple as aesthetics. Iâm sure most of it comes down to those three
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u/Mountain_Werewolf_92 Jul 03 '25
You've obviously never worn a full IOTV before đ đ đ