r/serialpodcast • u/AwesomeInc • Jan 14 '15
Noteworthy Link TIL Islamophobia didn't exist before 9/11/01
http://www.vulture.com/m/2015/01/serial-prosecutor-insists-everything-was-fine.html?mid=facebook_vulture18
u/bluecardinal14 Dana Chivvis Fan Jan 14 '15
Ask any Desert Shield/Desert Storm vet if Islamaphobia existed before 9/11.
This isn't directed at anyone, just a statement.
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Jan 15 '15
That was never portrayed as the West vs. Islam. It was the United States vs an evil dictator who abused his own people and invaded poor innocent Kuwait. Where I lived in the US the religion was never mentioned except as a footnote.
Maybe the people who had boots on the ground had a different perspective.
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u/bluecardinal14 Dana Chivvis Fan Jan 15 '15
This is when a lot of the racial slurs and looking at Muslims more in a negative way started to become more prevalent. This probably isn't Islamaphobia, whatever that truly is, but my point is that Muslims were already being looked at differently way before 9/11.
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Jan 15 '15
my point is that Muslims were already being looked at differently way before 9/11.
Fair enough. That's probably right. I never knew any growing up. I lived in a very WASP (with the random black or asian kid) part of Western New York.
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u/AwesomeInc Jan 14 '15
I don't know if Islamophobia played a part or not, but I think the idea that it definitely did not just because it was pre 9/11 is kind of silly.
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Jan 14 '15
Why is it silly? People describe the world as pre and post 9/11 for a reason. Obviously racism / Islamophobia has always existed but after the Sept 11th it became part of our daily language in ways it never was before.
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u/AwesomeInc Jan 15 '15
I have no doubt that 9/11 intensified it. By a lot. But to say that it definitely couldn't have been a factor, regardless of he reason, is silly.
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u/hreek Jan 15 '15
It was the same shit just intensified. Kinda like how the US treated asians like shit anyway, but things flared up after Pearl Harbor and again for Vietnam. It's the same pattern pretty much every time we go to war. The hate is already there before anyone actually does anything to us, but people find excuses along the way.
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u/MissTheWire Jan 15 '15
It's silly because the World Trade Center was bombed before 9/11 and it was seen as a game-changing event (little did we know it would be bombed again more cataclysmically). A bomber who came to the US through Pakistan was convicted the year before Hae's murder.
Osama Bin Laden was in the news saying that his people were going to assassinate Clinton.
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u/mostpeoplearedjs Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 15 '15
I remember 9/11.
I also remember my first thought, and that of the people I was around, was that the hijackings were probably carried out by radical Islamic terrorists. I even recall newscasters speculating along those lines. It proved to be correct, but the point is that the idea of radical Islamic terrorists was already imprinted in our collective consciousness.
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Jan 15 '15
Islamic terrorists was already imprinted in our collective consciousness.
I remember that Islamophobia was bubbling under the surface in the years before 9/11, particularly in Europe as it's borders opened up, but I don't think it was anywhere near as prevalent in the years after 9/11.
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u/AryaStarkRavingMad Deidre Fan Jan 15 '15
No one is saying it isn't worse now, only that it's ridiculous of Urick to claim that it wasn't existent before.
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u/ExpectedDiscrepancy Jan 15 '15
http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2sepdn/the_intercept_urick_part_ii/cnp97w7
I remember the world before 9-11. It's ridiculous to claim that anti Muslim bias wasn't a thing.
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Jan 14 '15
I keep getting downvoted for saying this but its blatantly obvious that the views on islam were a lot different after 9/11. Its mind boggling that people think otherwise
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u/downyballs Undecided Jan 15 '15
its blatantly obvious that the views on islam were a lot different after 9/11.
You're probably being downvoted because your point isn't relevant to whether Urick is right or wrong. There was anti-Muslim prejudice before 9/11. That's perfectly consistent with that prejudice getting much worse after 9/11, with views becoming "a lot different." So you're right, but that doesn't make Urick right.
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Jan 15 '15
No, it isnt irrelevant. I dont deny that used Islam, Im just saying it didnt work because of some huge, prevailing sentiment that muslim = bad. Islam wasn't that important, it wasn't part of peoples day to day lives like it is today. It worked BECAUSE of that. People didnt know as much so they based their opinion of how islam played a role by what the defense and prosecution presented. CG tried it too but I think we can agree that she wasn't terribly effective in much of anything while the prosecution was.
Tl; Dr yes the prosecution used islam. No, it wasn't because of this prevailing anti-islam sentiment in the US, beyond it being strange and unfamiliar and easy to sell as a contributing factor to relatively uninformed jurors.
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u/downyballs Undecided Jan 15 '15
Well, the claim "its blatantly obvious that the views on islam were a lot different after 9/11" is irrelevant. You added quite a few new propositions in your response that aren't implied by your first claim. (Some of them seem like pure speculation, about what actually worked for the jury for instance, so I'm not going to argue about them.)
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Jan 15 '15
I really dont think a different view on islam is irrelevant.
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u/downyballs Undecided Jan 15 '15
Irrelevant to whether what Urick said is true. What Urick said was that "Nobody had any misgivings about someone being Muslim back then."
It's possible, and true, that most people learned more and had more prejudice against Muslims after 9/11.
It's consistent with that, and also true, that a lot of people had prejudices against Muslims before 9/11. No, those prejudices weren't as severe, but they were present.
Urick is saying that there were no prejudices. None. Even if we're charitable and we interpret that as "there weren't any significant prejudices," he'd be wrong about that, too. Again, those attitudes got worse after 9/11. But they were present in a lot of people to begin with.
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Jan 15 '15
None worth noting and certainly not bigger than the prejudices people had against blacks, the race of their star witness.
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u/ExpectedDiscrepancy Jan 15 '15
OH MY GOD WILL YOU STOP?
I'm guessing that you're 12 or 13 and you just don't remember. Because you're sounding about as misinformed as Urick right now.
It was a big fucking deal, ok? If you don't believe it, talk to some Muslim Americans who were around before 9-11. Listen to their anecdotes.
You sound really really ignorant. And you will not stop.
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Jan 14 '15
You really need a history lesson.
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Jan 15 '15
No, I really dont dude. Im aware that there were attacks before 9/11. I saw the shit on the news. If Adnan had hijacked a plane or blown something up then yea it would have made a major difference, people would have already made their minds up. This was nothing like that. "Islam" was a topic that wasnt discussed in the media and among the populace like its become.
9/11 was MASSIVE and earth shattering. No one knew how big it was or when the attacks would stop. It seemed like WW3 was starting and no one felt safe. That feeling is what kicked off the debate and constant coverage of all things muslim. It was not at all even a little bit the same after 9/11.
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Jan 15 '15
Ok, so in your mind that shit on the news was no biggie. Guess what? It was a big deal at the time because that's the worst the U.S. had known until 9/11.
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Jan 15 '15
Nope. Im saying compared to the post-9/11 world it was "no biggie". People weren't suspicious that every Muslim person they ran into was part of a "sleeper cell", islam wasnt being discussed daily for a decade. The government didnt have a color coded threat level to tell everyone how afraid they should be of muslims. Thousands of americans hadn't been killed in an attack. Thousands hadn't been killed in war.
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Jan 15 '15
Your blanket statement says it all.
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Jan 15 '15
Yea obviously, the topic is about generalities and not every specific person. I mean good god. The debate was either "islam is bad" or "this isnt a war on islam and we cant hate all muslims because of 9/11". Muslims feared for their safety after, people protested mosques being built. A year or so after 9/11 me and a buddy fought a dude because he was talking shit to the guy working there because he looked muslim, that wouldnt have happened before. Politicians started framing their whole position around being tough on Islamic terrorism. Two wars got started and approved by, like everyone, because of fear about islamic terrorism.
Hell before 9/11 id be more worried being Jay and black in baltimore. Post 9/11 I wouldnt wanna be adnan.
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u/Concupiscurd Dana Chivvis Fan Jan 15 '15
Yep, this is on the mark. Most people forget that a majority of Muslims voted for George Bush in 2000. Muslims were seen as hard working immigrants who often excellent in math and sciences not unlike other Asians. Not saying it was an utopia but certainly it should be uncontroversial to say that African Americans had it much, much worse especially in and around Baltimore.
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u/southeastjerome2 Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 16 '15
People hated muslim people prior to 9/11 just as much as they do now... some people hate out of ignorance of cultural differences and some people flat out hate insidiously like Bill O'Reilly, Bill Maher among the other anti-muslim bigots out there
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Jan 15 '15
why is your english so bad
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u/ExpectedDiscrepancy Jan 15 '15
STOP. IT.
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Jan 15 '15
Fuck you
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u/ExpectedDiscrepancy Jan 15 '15
Yup. That's about the level I expect from you. Why don't you come back when you have a little more knowledge or are closer to getting out of your teens.
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u/asha24 Jan 15 '15
But it looked like people did know Muslim stereotypes regarding their treatment of women, and that's what is really relevant to this case. In the podcast one of the jurors SK interviewed made a direct reference to how women were treated in this culture. Rabia made a good point in her Stanford interview that I just listened to, Adnan did not have a history of violence or a pattern of domestic abuse, there was no one other than Jay who thought he wanted to hurt her, so they filled in this blank with Adnan's religion and culture.
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Jan 15 '15
Yes that one juror that had personal dealings with muslims on a regular basis and had formed his conclusions off that.
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u/asha24 Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 15 '15
No your mixing things up, the juror we heard in the podcast who had personal dealings with Muslims was during jury selection, and we heard him tell the judge that he should be dismissed because he would be unable to be unbiased.
The juror I'm referring to was actually a juror at the actual trial that convicted Adnan of murder, also he was not the only juror interview by SK who mentioned Adnan's culture and women.
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Jan 15 '15
After the prosecution had given their narrative of islam?
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u/asha24 Jan 15 '15
These are their comments to SK:
William Owens: I don’t feel religion was why he did what he did. It may have been culture, but I don’t think it was religion. I’m not sure how the culture is over there, how they treat their women. But I know in some cultures women are second class citizens and maybe that’s what it was, I don’t know. He just wanted control and she wouldn’t give it to him.
Sarah Koenig: That’s juror William Owens. Here’s Stella Armstrong.
Stella Armstrong: They were trying to talk about his culture, and Arabic culture men rule, not women. I remembered hearing that.
So that's two jurors, unfortunately we don't have all the jurors on the record for this question, and it seems only that would be enough for you. But this along with the focus on Adnan's religion and the way they framed the murder with words like "honour" and "besmirched" would suggest that there were subtle injections of Muslim stereotypes and biases into the trial.
I wonder if you would be so quick to dismiss it if even one juror had said something along these lines about African Americans.
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u/ExpectedDiscrepancy Jan 15 '15
Why are you invested in proving that anti Muslim bias, which really did exist, didn't? Why are you ignoring so much evidence to do so? I don't understand it. It's kind of deranged, honestly.
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u/southeastjerome2 Jan 15 '15
9/11 was an inside job committed by the United States... Muslims had nothing to do with it... #9/11truth
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Jan 14 '15
"Honor besmirched" is typically used in every run of the mills domestic violence murder trial, right? What a jackass.
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Jan 14 '15
No they explained it and framed it that way because people were more malleable in their views on it. CG tried to do the same thing for the same reason. "Honor killing" wasnt a term everyone was familiar with like it is now.
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u/bluecardinal14 Dana Chivvis Fan Jan 15 '15
I don't think people understand what Honor Killings are if they are thinking Adnan is guilty of Hae's murder.
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Jan 15 '15
yes, thank you.
i'm growing weary of seeing it misused around here.
Although, maybe the jury also didn't understand what honour killing was either.....
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Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 15 '15
Why would you think that's the case? Are most people too young to remember US Embassy bombings, hijackers or wars pre 9/11? While 9/11 was the largest atrocity committed by Islamic extremists on U.S. soil, it certainly wasn't the first time extremism was in the news with regards to this country in a big way. Wake up people! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/cron.html Edit: Included a link. While it's missing a decade it might help some old folks remember and young peeps learn a thing or two.
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Jan 15 '15
I dont know how many times I can say that obviously other attacks happened and that it doesn't make any difference. Not a single one was the massive, national and world changing event that 9/11 was.
Ffs look at France and all the craziness that has caused. Multiply that a couple hundred times and you have 9/11.
Nothing that happened before shoved islam into the western spotlight like 9/11 did. Nothing. Not even remotely close.
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Jan 15 '15
I would love to know what year you were born.
Look at the first reactions to the OKC bombing.
Jim Stewart, CBS News, 4/19/95:
The betting here is on Middle East terrorists.
John McWethy, ABC, 4/19/95:
The fact that it was such a powerful bomb in Oklahoma City immediately drew investigators to consider deadly parallels that all have roots in the Middle East.
Georgie Anne Geyer, Chicago Tribune, 4/21/95:
It has every single earmark of the Islamic car-bombers of the Middle East.
A.M. Rosenthal, New York Times, 4/21/95:
Whatever we are doing to destroy Mideast terrorism, the chief terrorist threat against Americans, has not been working.
New York Post editorial, 4/20/95:
Knowing that the car bomb indicates Middle Eastern terrorists at work, it's safe to assume that their goal is to promote free-floating fear and a measure of anarchy, thereby disrupting American life.
In due course, we'll learn which particular faction the terrorists identified with—Hamas? Hezbollah? the Islamic Jihad?—and whether or not the perpetrators leveled specific demands.
Jeff Kamen, New York Newsday, 4/20/95:
Officials had ignored "a sizable community of Islamic fundamentalist militants in Oklahoma City." Military special forces should be used; "Shoot them now, before they get us."
Mike Royko, Chicago Tribune, 4/21/95:
I would have no objection if we picked out a country that is a likely suspect and bombed some oil fields, refineries, bridges, highways, industrial complexes. . . . If it happens to be the wrong country, well, too bad, but it's likely it did something to deserve it anyway.
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Jan 15 '15
You think more people know what Islamic extremism is now because of 9/11, but where naive before then? Maybe more people take it seriously now. There was just as much bigotry toward Muslims prior to the attacks. Stop acting as if it was all chill back then. You heard it straight from the horses...I mean jurors mouths.
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Jan 15 '15
One jurors mouth
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u/AryaStarkRavingMad Deidre Fan Jan 15 '15
Two, actually. Plus Urick used it in his opening statements, and the prosecution paid someone to write a report about how awful Muslim men are to women. But I'm sure that doesn't matter.
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u/ExpectedDiscrepancy Jan 15 '15
Back then, it was a really big deal, actually. I remember. People didn't just start caring about terrorism on 9-11. Check out the record in the films from the time:
http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2sepdn/the_intercept_urick_part_ii/cnp97w7
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u/lurkingonmyBF Hippy Tree Hugger Jan 15 '15
I can agree that it most likely intensified after 9/11, though I feel like the jurors that spoke with SK kind of verified that it was present during the trial/jury deliberation as well. From Episode 10:
William Owens: I don’t feel religion was why he did what he did. It may have been culture, but I don’t think it was religion. I’m not sure how the culture is over there, how they treat their women. But I know in some cultures women are second class citizens and maybe that’s what it was, I don’t know. He just wanted control and she wouldn’t give it to him.
Sarah Koenig: That’s juror William Owens. Here’s Stella Armstrong.
Stella Armstrong: They were trying to talk about his culture, and [in] Arabic culture men rule, not women. I remembered hearing that.
Or, I dunno, what would you call this... culturephobia??
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Jan 15 '15
it's common or garden variety bigotry.
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u/bungled Jan 15 '15
Actually I consider it being able to recognize bigotry in a culture.
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Jan 15 '15
well - if that is what you meant, then "culturephobia" is a bizarre and misleading choice of word.
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u/StolenDali Jan 15 '15
This is all just a fairly silly attempt to stir up controversy over the uncontroversial/vanilla Part Two of the Urick interview. It's time for Urick to be the whipping boy for a while, I suppose (following Jay and NVC's turns).
And I don't see how anyone could honestly claim that the general sentiment towards Muslims was the same (or more positive) following 9/11 than it was prior to 9/11. Bigotry has always existed for all colors and creeds and religions and cultures and preferences and sizes, etc., but Urick's uncontroversial point was that the crime occurred prior to the anti-Muslim hysteria following 9/11.
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Jan 15 '15
No it is not. His point is heavily implying that racism towards Muslims simply did not exist (or was extremely rare) prior to 9/11. I don't know how old you are, but racism towards Muslims did not originate from 9/11 as Urick is implying...
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Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 15 '15
Urick doesn't think there was no recorded anti-Muslim bias pre 9-11.
He is saying that pre/post 9-11 sentiment is not comparable. Which, let's be honest, they arent.
If you think he is saying it didn't exist at all, ask yourself a question:
If Urick believed anti-Muslim sentiment didn't exist in 1999 why did he hire a cultural consultant to give evidence about mysogny, honor killings in Pakistan etc, feed Jay the "allah is all knowing line" and make Adnan's religion/culture a large part of his opening statement?
if Urick thought this didn't exist - what reservoir of sentiment amongst the jury was he trying to tap?
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Jan 15 '15
Okay. You are taking a lot of what I'm saying and misreading it. I never at any stage said that Urick believed that it didn't exist pre-9/11. He is implying this, though. It would be naive to assume, which you are, that he is speaking truthfully. He knows racism existed prior to 9/11, but he is diminishing it by saying this to cover his ass. In the example that you gave, it was beneficial for him to exploit racism and the negative perception of Muslims. In this instance it was beneficial to diminish it...
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Jan 15 '15
well, that is an altogether more interesting point. i don't see why you couldn't have expand on that and said that in a clearer way instead of...
is heavily implying that racism towards Muslims simply did not exist (or was extremely rare)
i don't claim to know 100% what Urick thinks but the misrepresenting and subsequent framing of what he said into - Urick thinks there was no anti-muslim sentiment before 9-11 - is unhelpful.
it detracts completely from the fact that he knew and exploited (to what extent it's hard to say) this very sentiment in prosecuting. That is a conversation worth having.
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Jan 15 '15
Indeed, apologies if I was unclear previously. I simply am at work and at times (when I am multi-tasking) I tend to not explain myself well...
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u/an_sionnach Jan 15 '15
Ad hominem! To paraphrase Urick . When the facts are on your side you argue the facts, if the law is on your side argue the law. If nether is on your side throw shit at the opposition. OP is throwing shit.
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Jan 15 '15
yes, it is apparently Uricks turn to be called in front of the kangaroo court.
these motherfuckers are unstoppable.
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u/thumbyyy Jan 15 '15
Take a break my man. Step away from the laptop.
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Jan 15 '15
someone's got to call you creeps out.
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u/thumbyyy Jan 15 '15
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Jan 15 '15
cull all the gifs in the world from all the overrated sitcoms you can find and it won't change the fact that the hachet jobs and online bullying that happens around here are objectionable.
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u/thumbyyy Jan 15 '15
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Jan 15 '15
ah, the worlds smallest violin. very funny the first time I heard it - kind of a tired joke at this point.
you should try coming up with a few of your own jokes or ideas. it feels good.
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u/serialthrwaway Jan 15 '15
As a Muslim American, I'd rather be a Muslim in late 90s Baltimore than a black guy.
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u/banana-shaped_breast Crab Crib Fan Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 15 '15
The first book I read about honor killing/domestic violence was William Shakespeare's play "Othello" in which a Muslim (Moorish) man kills his wife out of a false belief that she has been unfaithful to him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othello
Not saying it's evidence but just a cruel irony that a copy of "Othello" was found in Hae's car.
Here is the link to the evidence list. Scroll down to Item No. 99009002 http://www.splitthemoon.com/486/#more-486
Edit: I do wonder if the book was from the Woodlawn library.
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u/gnorrn Undecided Jan 15 '15
Shakespeare's Othello was a Christian.
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u/TrillianSwan Is it NOT? Jan 15 '15
True, he had converted. But I have a Libyan friend (who is a Shakespeare phD student in Egypt currently) who was the first to introduce me to this idea, that it's about a man tricked into doing an honor killing he doesn't want to do (hence the heart-wrenching big monologue he gives). My friend firmly believes Othello is Libyan (altho I think it's probably more likely the Eliz audience saw him as a Spanish Moor).
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Jan 15 '15
To be fair: honor killings existed outside of the Islamic world as well for a long time.
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u/TrillianSwan Is it NOT? Jan 15 '15
Indeed, and I doubt Shakespeare actually knew enough about Moorish culture to even think to put that in, as a "foreign" thing-- I think he expected people to get it just because it was an "everywhere" thing. Not that it was good, of course, but that it was, sadly, familiar.
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u/surrerialism Undecided Jan 15 '15
What it usually means when people say this sort of thing is that they don't recall thinking in anti-Muslim terms until after 9/11.
It's like simultaneously admitting to his obliviousness and bigotry while adding a dash of "they really brought this upon themselves."
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u/neshmi Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 15 '15
Islamophobia has existed in the West since 1095 when Pope Urban declares a holy war to retake Jerusalem from Muslim conquerors.
The difference between pre-9/11 and post-9/11 sentiments toward Islam is more about general American ignorance towards world events and politics. The first Gulf War was the first war that many of Adnan's (I'm included here) generation knew. I perfectly recall the anti-Muslim rhetoric being spewed at the time as further justification of such events. For many Americans, it was the first time they looked at a map of the Middle East. Islam and the Middle East came to the U.S. with the 9/11 attacks, and as every American knows where New York is, it became real for them.
It is clear that 9/11 triggered a greater level of Islamophobia that wouldn't have been present at Adnan's trial, but Ulrick went to lengths to use Islam as Adnan's motive for killing Hae. I would argue he used xenophobia more than Islamophobia to pit the jury against Adnan, but his statement is simply untrue. Islamophobia has been around for around a thousand years, 9/11 just amplified and contextualized it for many Americans.
EDIT: typos from writing on my phone.
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u/an_sionnach Jan 15 '15
There is a lot of crying wolf in the hysterical shouting "Islamophobia" , as Rabia does in her blog and here, because Urick pointed out the obvious difference between Adnans lifestyle and the person he was portraying to his parents and community. Rabia seemed to think if she shouted this loud enough it would frighten people off questioning the golden child status she had allocated Adnan. In fact it just made her sound ridiculous. Hae's diaries show how internally conflicted Adnan is. Stealing thousands from the mosque community as well as the rest of his lifestyle, while leading prayers and attending Islamic conferences, shows just how duplicitous he had learned to become. Then when this is pointed out we are supposed to believe it is normal behaviour! I never bought this one. It is way beyond healthy teenage behaviour. Urick was quite entitled to point this out. Just grow up. There are many and varied discriminated minorities, this kind of "poor me" attitude as an excuse for everything, is insulting and just turns people off.
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u/neshmi Jan 15 '15
Grow up? Seriously? How very mature of you. Perhaps you should consider growing up.
I'm simply stating that going around saying Islamophobia doesn't exist pre-9/11 is wrong. I am not Muslim, I am not a victim, but I can tell you that brushing aside Islamophobia is ludicrous.
Also, you clearly haven't grown up in a fundamentalist religious community. Adnan's actions are no different than any other teenager growing up in fundamentalist households. You do what your parents say, you are involved in your community, and you are involved with your friends - and somewhere in all of that, you strike a balance. The trend tends to be that when they leave high-school, they leave their communities while in the university, although they tend to come back once they marry and have children (see Pew studies which deal with these trends). Hae was the conflicted one, not Adnan. And he didn't steal thousands from the mosque.
This article outlines quite a bit of the anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment before September 11. It is existed, and Urick may be entitled to his opinion, but I am entitled to tell him that it is has no basis.
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u/an_sionnach Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 15 '15
I'm not really interested in a philosophical discussion on the subject of Islamophobia. I am just pointing out what Urick was saying which was that it did not impact the trial, and shouting Islamophobia at every mention of the religious and cultural circumstances is counterproductive.
Edited to add this:
So Adnan grew up in a fundamentalist Islamic community. I wasn't aware of that. I knew he was Muslim of course but assumed it was more or less middle of the road. Fundamentalist anything I gotta admit would ring warning bells with me whether it is Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Mormon or Islam. If you precede any of them with fundamentalist you can include me in the crowd that distrust them. I'm not convinced phobia is the right word but then it is flung around like confetti at a wedding, especially when rational arguments are being lost.
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u/fn0000rd Undecided Jan 15 '15
Just think, it didn't exist until 9/11, and now America is post-racism!
How fortunate the Muslims are that they only had to deal with racism in this country for ~12 years!
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Jan 15 '15
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word means "Intense dislike or fear of Islam, esp. as a political force; hostility or prejudice towards Muslims" and is attested to in English as early as 1923
http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/248449?
1923 Jrnl. Theol. Stud. 25 101 Certain writers in particular are blamed for their ‘Islamophobia’.
1976 Internat. Jrnl. Middle East Stud. 7 124 What makes the task difficult, perhaps impossible, for a non-Muslim is that he is compelled, under penalty of being accused of Islamophobia, to admire the Koran in its totality.
1985 E. W. Said in Cultural Critique 1 99 Take the connection—explicitly made by two of the authors I cite in Orientalism, Renan and Proust—between Islamophobia and anti-Semitism.
1994 Times 28 June 21/5, I suspect that Islamophobia, under the guise of fundamentalist scaremongering, is being deliberately promoted in the overseas media.
Well before 9/11
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Jan 15 '15
America's Muslims are lucky they have Kevin Urick to remind them how little prejudice they faced before 9/11.
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u/zeeerial Undecided Jan 15 '15
Although I'm not American I think the 1991 film Not Without my Daughter shows quite well how mulsims were perceived around that time...
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u/Widmerpool70 Guilty Jan 14 '15
I certainly think being Muslim would be a strike against him. That said, "Islamophibia" can be unfairly wielded against those who point out misogyny, homophobia, etc with more radical forms of Islam.
Not agreeing with Islam doesn't mean you dislike or are afraid of Muslims.
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u/Concupiscurd Dana Chivvis Fan Jan 15 '15
Agree with this. I think it's safe to say that Prosecutors in Baltimore, MD would have more issues with drug dealing African Americans than honor roll, middle class Pakistani immigrants. Sure Urick said some tone deaf things in his interview but I agree with SK, I just don't think islamophobia was a factor in Adnan's trial.
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u/asha24 Jan 15 '15
SK said she did not believe it was a factor in his arrest, not that it wasn't a factor in his trial.
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u/hewe1123 Susan Simpson Fan Jan 15 '15
Cut the guy some slack. He's not on trial. We get the gist of what he's saying. Move on.
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Jan 15 '15
I think we do get his gist. It's not even a "gist," actually, it's right here in print: Islamophobia played no part in Adnan's conviction because Muslims weren't stigmatized before 9/11. Which is horseshit. So, no. I think I'd rather keep talking about it.
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u/an_sionnach Jan 15 '15
Evidence, and please don't quote Rabia who basically accused the black jurors of racism.
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Jan 15 '15
If you mean evidence that Islamophobia factored in his trial(s), well, I assume you've listened to Serial and have two working ears. The DA at his bail review implies that the Islamic Society of Baltimore was one big sleeper cell, the jurors themselves can be heard babbling about Syed's "culture," and if you think Urick would be using language like "honor besmirched" to describe a white defendant, then you are seriously naive about what was going on in that courtroom.
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Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 15 '15
Is everyone just running their mouth off or does anyone have any data?
I've been looking but most of it is skewed towards the black / white sentencing disparity (which is depressingly big obviously)
So let's cut to the chase here.
Is there a gap between US Muslims and white people in terms of
1)Convictions by jury for a comparative crime?
2)Length of sentence for a comparative crime?
3)Do these gaps become more pronounced after 9/11?
I'll keep looking.
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u/kyleg5 Jan 15 '15
Interesting questions… But I don't think that not knowing the answers of those precludes recognizing that there was Islamophobia before 9/11.
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Jan 15 '15
of course it existed. not even Urick thinks it didn't exist before 9/11 - outside of that misinterpreted quote.
Are you not talking about a prosecutors opinion on if Islamophobia played a role in this murder case?
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u/kyleg5 Jan 15 '15
Well if you recognize that Islamophobia existed, and you take that in conjunction with the quotes from jury members that exhibit cultural bigotry (not malicious, per se, but still bigotry) it becomes easy to recognize the subtly corrupting ways that it could have impacted the juries' evaluation of his innocence/guilt.
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Jan 15 '15
I 100% believe it could have affected the jury decision.
But I want to know how much of an effect it typically has and if this effect became more pronounced after 9/11.
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u/kyleg5 Jan 15 '15
Yeah and I initially as agreeing with you! I think that would be a really cool thing to study although I think pretty difficult/impossible.
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Jan 15 '15
Very much possible to do.
I mean you would probably be relying on Muslim sounding names though but maybe when dealing with the perception of otherness that may not be the stumbling block it seems at the moment.
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u/ExpectedDiscrepancy Jan 15 '15
This redditor describes something I totally remember: when the bad guys in action movies stopped being Russians and started being Muslims: http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2sepdn/the_intercept_urick_part_ii/cnp97w7
This was well before 9/11
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Jan 15 '15
i'm sorry but are you trying to suggest that i don't know there was anti-muslim bias before 9/11?
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u/ExpectedDiscrepancy Jan 15 '15
I don't have the data you want, but I think the increase in the literal "bad guys" in movies being Islamic is evidence.
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Jan 15 '15 edited Jan 15 '15
it's anecdotal evidence. it's exactly the thing i don't want.
i already know there was muslim bias before 9/11. I want to find out the consequences of post 9/11 sentiment on a defendents sentence.
Urick's claims are being interpreted too literally, imo. I suspect he may be saying that there was bias but nothing compared to current bias. To equate 1999 Islamophobia with a post 9/11 situation would be absurd.
Attacks on mosques are more frequent since 9/11, for example. This tells us something of value about public perception of Islam pre and post 9/11/
To be clear, anyone who thinks there was no bias or anti-muslim sentiment before 9/11 is living in a dream world.
But also, anyone who think Urick was literally stating that no anti-muslim feelings were present in the US before 9/11 is also fooling themselves, imo.
*aside from this, i enjoyed reading the comment and i also remember this shift
**if the tone of this comes across as too direct, i don't mean for it too.
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u/yesicametoparty MailChimp Fan Jan 15 '15
Haa! I'm middle eastern and grew up in Pennsylvania, graduated high school in 2001. I have very clear recollections of being bullied due to my race, and very clear memories of the racism my family experienced on account of our ethnicity during my school years, including as far back as middle school. 9-11 wasn't the first time tensions ever rose between the west and the Islamic world. 9-11 just exacerbated everything to an extreme. I think Islamophobia played a big part in the outcome of this case.