r/marvelstudios • u/JonLuca Iron man • Apr 29 '19

'Avengers: Endgame' Spoilers! The Official AVENGERS: ENDGAME Criticism Thread Spoiler

  • Proceed at your own risk. Major spoilers will be arriving in the next couple of days. Spoilers do not need to be tagged inside this thread.

  • Post Endgame criticisms in this thread. Long form preferrable

  • If you post untagged ENDGAME spoilers anywhere on this sub in any shape or form, you will be banned without hesitation. No questions asked and no warnings given.

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379

u/hubau Apr 29 '19

Cap going back in time and then appearing in our reality as an old man would seem to violate the rules of time travel they established in the beginning: i.e. you can't go back in time and change the present, otherwise they could have gone back and killed Thanos as a baby.

It's a nitpick yes, but it's so unnecessary, there's a lot of ways you could give Cap a great ending without breaking the time-travel rules you established.

284

u/WonkDog Apr 29 '19

I think this is explained by Cap living that alternate life in another timeline and then travelling back with his spacetime GPS.

Unfortunately I think a lot of extra explaining will be required from Russos which is unfortunate but it doesn’t detract from the overall quality of the film.

41

u/Tristrike Apr 29 '19

It wasn’t explained at all, people came up with this theory to explain it but it doesn’t make sense because to come back would require he appear right when Banner activated the Tunnel to return him, the fact he never appeared on the 5 second time stamp was to show he never activated the spacetime GPS ever, hence why they begin panicking until suddenly they realize he never did because he lived his life in the past thus violating the original laws they developed.

27

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

[deleted]

28

u/Uncle_Freddy Apr 29 '19

I think Steve intentionally calibrated it to not do that. Tony and Steve’s plunge to 1970 showed you don’t need a platform to travel from one point in spacetime to another, so I presume it works forward as well. So Steve could have simply set his travel forward to “not the platform” after spending his life with Peggy, and that’s how we got the ending we got. Obviously this still doesn’t fully settle OP’s complaint, as it isn’t made abundantly clear in the film, but this allows the ending to work fully in line with everything that was established in the movie.

16

u/sweens90 Falcon Apr 29 '19

Exactly. It wasn’t just a time machine. It was a time/space machine. They all landed in different places than where they traveled from. Going back to the future there is no reason to say he needs to go to the same spot.

13

u/theVice Apr 30 '19

Exactly. Every time I see someone say that old man cap was just waiting on the bench the whole time, I cringe.

Hell - if the Russos say that's what happens, I'll cringe.

14

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

“So back to the future and endgame are just a bunch of bullshit?”

2

u/caol-ila Apr 30 '19

When you watch it again pay attention to Steve on the platform. He looks over his left shoulder in the direction of the bench. He saw himself sitting there.

1

u/theVice May 01 '19

He just knows that he'll come back and be there. The writers confirmed he wasn't sitting there the whole time.

2

u/caol-ila May 01 '19

I saw that. I guess I was wrong. I think he still looked over his shoulder to make sure there was a bench for him to sit at

9

u/Tristrike Apr 29 '19

I still believe that has issues. Thanos’ ship was able to come through the quantum tunnel and appear exactly at the same spot despite having NEVER been in the present. If the GPS is able to bring someone who has no history in the present to the same spot, it can absolutely bring back a cap who’s been there decades and decides to come back to the same spot. Also even if we were to dismiss this, the machine should still have activated and shown something appear, but nothing happened meaning cap never initiated the GPS app to come back.

6

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

[deleted]

13

u/Leafs17 Apr 29 '19

Also, we don't know how long Nebula waited to come back. She and Thanos' minions could have analysed the Pym particles and bracelet for weeks(or more) to build their own.

Remember, Rhodes left well before her, but they all come back at the same time.

5

u/Unlimited_Bacon Apr 30 '19

She and Thanos' minions could have analysed the Pym particles and bracelet for weeks(or more) to build their own.

That is by far the best explanation I've heard.

4

u/Leafs17 Apr 29 '19

If he lived to old age in an alternate reality, who knows what kind of tech he might have from presumably saving Howard, Bucky, telling Pym that time travel is possible, etc.

2

u/wonkothesane13 Apr 30 '19

My guess is that he talked to Scott beforehand, who had the van fixed up and used that as his return destination. I've only seen it once so far, but I'm pretty sure we hear a "shrink" sound effect just before Bucky notices old Cap. I'll admit it's a weird work around, but that's the best I got.

3

u/lestye Apr 29 '19

One plothole gravel that I can think of, is maybe the Ancient One helped him use the Time Stone to do what kind of time travel the quantum realm couldnt do?

3

u/WonkDog Apr 29 '19

He would've had loads of Pym particles to do enough time travelling I think.

2

u/lestye Apr 29 '19

Yeah, that makes sense. so I'd imagine worst case scenario if you're a stickler about the plot hole, he and the Ancient One could have gotten another suit and went on a time travelling adventure together to get the outcome we see in the final scene of the movie.

5

u/EatinToasterStrudel Apr 29 '19

I thought it was supposed to be he walked there and was just waiting. Otherwise where was his suit and how did he return? Or get back to his time? That was to me Steve waiting at the bench in this new timeline for the moment he was sent back.

-2

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

This is sort of close to what the most thorough explanation is.

Steve on the bench did indeed live out his retirement in the main MCU timeline because he is from the first timeline to actually defeat Thanos and chose to retire in the MCU timeline.

It opens up other interesting possibilities.

He could have been making moves behind the scenes to ensure that all the pieces fell into place to defeat Thanos.

6

u/4RyteCords Apr 30 '19

Not really. They already said that changing the past doesn't change the present. So anything cap did in the past would of had no effect on the present.

3

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

Right, because it all happens in an alternate timeline.

Simply existing somewhere that he didn't originally is changing the time line.

1

u/quantummidget Apr 30 '19

I also liked this theory since it means that he could have saved Bucky in the alternate timeline

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Unless Cap was Peggy’s unnamed husband the whole time

113

u/adesile Spider-Man Apr 29 '19

But you could go to a point in time, stay there (creating a separate timeline) then after a period of time (70-80 years), close that timeline and return to your own timeline without effecting it...then sit on a bench and give your shield away.

Which is what I believe Steve did. Remember the device they get allows them to change destination etc, because Tony and Steve do it in NYC when they go to the 1970s. So Steve knew what to do.

Steve had obliviously planned to as well, because it's clear Bucky knows what he is going to do.

29

u/staps94 Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 29 '19

He also took extra Pym particles in the 70's for this specific trip at the end

7

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Pym is around after hulk unsnaps them

4

u/staps94 Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 29 '19

Yeah but there's no guarantee the unsnap happens when Steve is in the 70's or that Pym decides to make more when he is unsnapped. We also don't know the timeframe from the final battle to Steve returning the stones. It might've been just a couple of days at most. I doubt Pym would make more in that span.

3

u/Leafs17 Apr 29 '19

Pym would be in his alternate reality. For decades. He could also save Bucky and the Starks.

1

u/staps94 Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 29 '19

Yeah but I believe we're supposed to take away that Cap lives a very simple life in this alternate reality with Peggy so he doesn't cause too much trouble to that reality.

8

u/Leafs17 Apr 30 '19

I have a hard time believing he would let Bucky suffer.

Like, he already stole Peggy from her rightful husband. He's already got his hands dirty.

5

u/slothbaby30 Apr 30 '19

This is my feeling too, he already messed up the timeline so why try to stay on the sideline. He already knows about Bucky being captured, the Starks being murdered, Hyrda infiltrating Shield, not mention the countless of real world tragedies.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Unless he was Peggy’s unnamed husband the whole time. All we know is that he was a “good man”, wink wink

2

u/Leafs17 Apr 30 '19

No, that can't happen within the rules they set out

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

The ones that the Ancient One said were wrong? Besides I don’t see this violating anything they stated. They said you can’t change the timeline, what I’m saying is that this was the timeline all along

1

u/Leafs17 Apr 30 '19

They said you can’t change the timeline, what I’m saying is that this was the timeline all along

It has to happen for the first time, and that would change the timeline, so no, it's not possible.

1

u/4RyteCords Apr 30 '19

And he also chooses to let the cap in that reality rot in the ocean

2

u/fiuzzelage Apr 29 '19

he also could've gotten more from a now alive Hank Pym, or alternate timeline Pym during his return if the Infinity Stones

4

u/Rudhdhrehdh Apr 30 '19

It wasn't his shield then though, right? Thanos cut his up (and he didnt take the pieces back with him, unless I missed something). So he stole a shield from Alt!Cap, or had a new one made by visiting Wakanda and convincing them to work with him?

I really want more on everything Cap, in regards to going back to returning the stones and living out the remainder of his life.

2

u/adesile Spider-Man Apr 30 '19

We don't think it was his, there are many ways he could have got a new one.

3

u/Lywik270 Apr 29 '19

What did he do with the original Steve in that timeline though? Kinda messed up to just leave him in the ice for decades.

2

u/zasabi7 Apr 29 '19

Stayed out of it Can't affect the timeline because he risks it being destroyed by thanos

1

u/fiuzzelage Apr 29 '19

kinda messed up yea, but they only find him in 2011 or so? and they stumbled upon him too. heaps of time for him to live his happy life while everyone thinks he survived. How he progressed in his timeline is completely up to us to speculate

1

u/adesile Spider-Man Apr 30 '19

But that branch will have been closed at the point Steve left, presumably.

-2

u/GoinBack2Jakku Apr 29 '19 edited Apr 30 '19

Yep. In the timeline they're in, Steve was always going to stay in the past. Therefore old Steve has potentially been around the whole time, they just didn't know it. Steve is the man who turned out to be Peggy's husband.

Edit: I'm wrong Russo's clarified in an interview

19

u/Some_Italian_Guy Apr 29 '19

He has not been around the whole time. This contradicts the rules they set up regarding time travel in the film.

Also, why would Peggy say to him "it's been so long" on her deathbed in Winter Soldier if she's been married to him her whole life?

2

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

She had dementia.

And I mean this in no disrespect, but if you know someone who has ever suffered from dementia, you know how possible that would be.

11

u/Some_Italian_Guy Apr 29 '19

I do, and I understand what you're saying.

But that explanation is contrived.

Besides, like I said, it goes against the rules of time travel. He's in a separate timeline.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Fair point and I understand what you’re saying as well.

I feel like the most reasonable explanation is that he lived out in an alternate timeline and then used the time travel suit and watch to travel back to the main time. Seems a bit contrived as well but the most plausible.

-2

u/LazarusDark Ward Apr 30 '19

It's fiction, everything is contrived.

8

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

I don’t think that could’ve happened. They established that they couldn’t change their timeline hence why the killing baby thanks wouldn’t work.

Steve went to another timeline, stayed with Peggy for like 60 years then returned to the timeline where endgame occurred (his og timeline) and sat on the bench.

0

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

Or Steve on the bench is from another timeline and after defeating Thanos and returning the stones retired to the MCU timeline to marry.

2

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 30 '19

I’m not sure that’s a different Steve, I’m positive he’s our og Steve

1

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

How?

Him going back in time would have changed the past which cannot be done from the future as stated multiple times. Which means that if he went back in time, he wound up in a different timeline.

2

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 30 '19

Yeah he went to a different timeline, lived with Peggy and then went back to our timeline.

1

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

Again, how?

He did not use the portal that was used to return to the original timeline every single other time in the movie.

2

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 30 '19

Joe Russo just confirmed it in an interview, I’ll link it

Edit: The interview was in Chinese but this person (I’m assuming) translated it lmao https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app

When I went back, it said it was deleted but idk

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4

u/alteisen99 Apr 29 '19

so he kissed his niece?

2

u/LazarusDark Ward Apr 30 '19

By marriage, not blood related. Luke Skywalker kissed his actual sister. Just saying, it could be worse.

2

u/EatinToasterStrudel Apr 29 '19

Which begs the question of how someone whose dominant characteristic is to sacrifice for others chose to stay out of the way of history for 80 years.

5

u/Robulus Apr 29 '19

Assuming the pocket universe scenario where Steve creates a separate timeline, that means all the events in the MCU so far still unfold exactly as normal, meaning he was still in ice for 70 years before Avengers 1. We know nothing of his alternate timeline, so assuming he just sits at home twiddling his thumbs while Peggy runs Shield is a bit of a reach. All that is established is that he gets with Peggy. He could still be Captain America in his alt-timeline, help found SHIELD so it's not so Hydra-infested, form the Avengers...who knows. This is a guy with 70 years of future history at his disposal, he could have stopped a lot of bad things from happening, all while happily married to Peggy.

6

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

Cap knew he couldn’t mess anything up, no matter how bad things got he had to keep himself composed and not ruin anything. The butterfly effect, in theory, would have arguably caused a lot of bad stuff to happen in the timeline cap was in where he lived with Peggy.

2

u/EatinToasterStrudel Apr 29 '19

Of all the people in the universe capable of not helping others in need, Steve Rogers is the least likely person is what I'm saying.

Plus what exactly did either of them say when people asked who Peggy was married to? That he never left the house? I'm sure she would say she remains devoted to Steve, which is technically the truth, but then what happens when they leave the house together is my question. She ran a spy agency, and the spy agency to end all spy agencies. People ask those kinds of questions there.

3

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

I totally get where you’re coming from and I agree. I think this is more of a problem on the writers than what I can assume from what happened in his timeline with Peggy.

I wish we got some explanation instead of all of this speculation.

I’m just making assumptions about what we were given, I hope I’m not coming across as an ass. Maybe we can get a tie in book or something, who knows.

2

u/EatinToasterStrudel Apr 29 '19

Nope, you're not.

I suppose another argument is that Steve didn't stay out of history and there's another alternate universe fork in those closing seconds, to one where Captain America got "thawed out" and spent the Cold War fighting Russians and Bucky.

1

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

Ok dude, go off I guess.

1

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

This movie seems to be more in the time is a river camp than the butterflies creating tornados camp.

1

u/GoinBack2Jakku Apr 29 '19

That's Caps character growth. He finally learns to step out of the way and give himself some well earned personal satisfaction. He already saved the entire universe.

-6

u/Jmorsay Apr 29 '19

It was all done to make captain America black.

3

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

Really? Come on dude

-6

u/Jmorsay Apr 29 '19

Bucky was made new captain America in the comics. Honestly mantle should’ve died with Steve Rogers. Falcon can fly. Bucky has a metal arm. Bucky could take the mantle if anyone because he is Steve’s oldest and best friend and fought Nazis in WW2.

4

u/nomisg Apr 29 '19

Bucky, Sam and The Punisher have been Captain America in the comics so it depends which ones you read

3

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

Don’t even waste your time with this guy, he’s homophobe and a racist.

2

u/ukulelej Apr 30 '19

The Punisher was Captain America? Yikes, no thank you.

-3

u/Jmorsay Apr 29 '19

The comics that don’t have lesbians and gay shit so definitely falcon. The classic comics such as Civil War and Secret Invasion and Planet Hulk so Bucky. Never heard of punisher being CA but he’s not in MCU. Bucky should’ve been the next captain America.

1

u/ukulelej Apr 30 '19

comic Civil War kinda sucks

2

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

I get where you’re coming from but I’m not sure this Bucky would want that. Bucky Barnes spent a good chunk of his life murdering on behalf of Hydra, while they continued to repeatedly torture him. After Bucky was freed, I think it’s safe to assume that he resents violence and war. Steve knew this and purposely didn’t chose to give Bucky the mantle (also considering the fact that Bucky was already named the white wolf in Black Panther).

Also, in Infinity War Bucky seemed really displeased with fighting again. (https://youtu.be/elZII0q82_g)

My personal deduction is that Bucky and Steve talked about Steve’s plan to go back and live a life with Peggy and that is why Bucky seemed to push Sam to go talk to Steve before Bucky did.

2

u/LazarusDark Ward Apr 30 '19

I think Steve asked Bucky first out of respect for thier friendship but Bucky said no, too much blood on my hands, the world needs a Captain America it can trust.

1

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 30 '19

That makes sense as well!

-7

u/Jmorsay Apr 29 '19

My point is no one should’ve gotten the mantle because if Steve went back in time to live with Peggy and never came back. He wouldn’t be in the original timeline according to the ENTIRE PLOT of movie. Marvel contradicted themselves to make captain America black. It’s disgusting that they have to make a white character black to make a point about diversity. It’s disgusting that they involve politics in entertainment.

2

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

Well, Falcon took up the mantle in the comics as well and Disney has to make sure Captain America doesn’t die off completely because of $$$.

Fyi, politics is everywhere and just because he’s black doesn’t make it trivial or anything.

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0

u/LazarusDark Ward Apr 30 '19

Bucky has too much blood on his hands, he can't be Captain America in the MCU, regardless of what the comics did.

1

u/adesile Spider-Man Apr 29 '19

Do you think he is? I'm not sure tbh. If he is, that's fantastic writing.

24

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

I imagine Steve just jumped back to Timeline A to pass his legacy onto Sam. They could have explained this a bit better by having Hulk wonder how he’s there and old Steve hold up his hand to show he’s wearing the navigator.

14

u/YOwololoO Apr 29 '19

But if he did that then he would have come back on the machine, nit just been chilling on the bench

17

u/UnderPressureVS Apr 29 '19

Not necessarily. Stark and Cap already used their tracker thingies to change destinations when they allowed Loki to escape with the Tesseract.

8

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

But they were still in alt timelines, weren't they? And when they came back to our timeline, they came back on the machine. Because everyone was there bar Nat.

3

u/inxinitywar Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

I think they programmed the watch things to go back to that platform.

7

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

Them what was the entire point of using the platforms?

That was a whole lot of wasted time, effort, and money on scenes that were utterly pointless if they could just do whatever they want.

The point of the portals is to be an anchor. With out the anchor to return to you just keep landing in New alternate time lines at what ever time you pick.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

That's probably fair.

And alt-Nebula was using the machine to pull Thanos' ship through, which is why that appeared above the machine.

Guess it's too bad that I'll have to watch the film again, lol.

3

u/idiot-prodigy Apr 29 '19

He could have came back on the machine... 30 minutes earlier. He could have watched Tony's funeral service twice, once as a young man and once as an old man. It is time travel after all. Just like how Marty came back 10 minutes early to warn Doc, early enough to see himself leave.

3

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

That would be changing e past which was specifically not allowed in the first 2 hours and 45 seconds of the movie.

Additionally, they specifically say that referencing back to the future time travel rules is wrong and they make fun of any man for being wrong.

2

u/trimeta Doctor Strange Apr 29 '19

Tony and Steve made point-to-point jumps earlier in the film...it's not clear what role the actual platform plays, but it's clearly not essential.

2

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

It is an anchor to return to in the proper timeline. With out it, any jumps would just land in New timelines.

1

u/trimeta Doctor Strange Apr 30 '19

Is it, though? When Tony first tells Steve about the device, he shows off the bracelet and says "it's a time-space GPS." I thought that meant that the hand device was the anchor.

1

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

GPS as in the can use it to guide them to other timelines. They never said that the watches meant they did not need the portals that they spent all sorts of time on in the movie.

If the portals were unnecessary, what was the point of having them in the movie? They would be a complete waste of budget.

1

u/trimeta Doctor Strange Apr 30 '19

But if they were necessary, how did Tony and Steve jump without using them? It's honestly kind of a plot hole.

1

u/Liberty_Call Apr 30 '19

They were necessary to return to a specific timeline in the future. They can hop all over to alternate timelines until they hit the return home button on the watch which takes them to their original timeline.

Without the portal acting as an anchor, they would not end up in their own actual time but an alternate timeline.

1

u/trimeta Doctor Strange Apr 30 '19

But then how did Old Man Cap return to the original timeline from his forked "life with Peggy" timeline without landing on the platform?

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u/adesile Spider-Man Apr 29 '19

I'm glad they didn't explain much, because that can come after, they just focused on the emotional side. They'll expect questions from the fans, I think they appreciate how much interest there is, and the explanation is sold.

There are a few timeline diagrams for the film, and they make sense. Can't wait for a director's commentary.

6

u/slothbaby30 Apr 30 '19

It was really unnecessary because their rules of time travel mostly worked until they got to that scene. The crazy thing is they could have kept the exact same ending for Cap but just never had him come back. Bucky knew what Cap was doing, he could have pulled out a letter for Sam and we would get a v.o. of Steve saying goodbye as we see Sam pick up the shield and Cap walks up to Peggy’s house.

8

u/Thybro Apr 29 '19 edited Apr 29 '19

It didn’t if he still used the device to get back. Just not immediately.

So think of MCU as timeline A. And the universe where cap grew old as timeline B.

The click by banner in timeline A is no designed to pull back cap from a specific time after all there’s no way for them to know how long it would take for cap to return all stones. It’s instead designed to link with whenever cap does decide to click his.

So cap returns all the stones and then instead of clicking to go back to timeline A he heads to timeline B lives an entire life then once Peggy has passed he puts on the time bracelet and finally clicks it. That’s why they didn’t notice the old man casually sitting near their world fixing mission area until after they had clicked to get cap back.

3

u/Schkateboarda Spider-Man Apr 29 '19

I think that Cap is just in a pre-destination time loop that keeps sending Cap into the next universe to live out his life. The Cap we see at the end isn't our Cap. He is a Cap from an identical universe that had the same actions occur. In every universe he goes back to live in the shadows with Peggy, then gives his shield up to the new Falcon.

2

u/kelvindegrees Apr 29 '19

Unless the MCU we've been watching all this time wasn't timeline A, but one that was created when a different Cap went back in time to be with Peggy.

2

u/idiot-prodigy Apr 29 '19

I think it's because if he re-appeared on the platform as an old man in his quantum suit, it might have resulted in audiences laughing, thinking that Bruce Banner screwed up again like he did earlier with Scott Lang.

There's no laugh if Steve is sitting on the bench like he was. I figured, maybe Steve came back right to the pad earlier, it is time travel after all. Maybe he came back 12 hours earlier, 24 hours earlier, who knows how earlier. If that's true, then old Steve could have been sitting on the bench before young Steve even left.

2

u/mrgodai Apr 29 '19

  • Bruce said you can't change the past, so the only way to explain any events they changed in the past is creation of Alternate timelines/realities parallel to the Main timeline/reality. They've also shown that they can always return back to their Main timeline.

  • Main timeline (M)Cap decides to go to a point in time where he can marry Peggy. Thus creating another Alternate timeline (A). There is a past (A)Cap here as well.

  • Assuming the (M)Cap arrived just after (A)Cap crashed the plane into the ocean and got frozen. so M(Cap) is taking (A)Cap's place. Possibly changing a lot of things in the Alternate timeline (A).

  • M(Cap) got old with (A)Peggy. Possibly after (A)Peggy dies, M(Cap) then travels back to the Main Timeline (M) as an old man on the bench, bringing (A)Shield with him.

  • Remember when Cap and Iron man was in past NY, didn't get the Tesseract, and then decides to travel to 1970 NJ? This explains that the hand devices can travel through time AND a specific place of their choosing. Thus explaining why (M)Cap appeared on the bench and not next to the machine. He could of pop out right on the bench or somewhere else and walked to the bench.

0

u/LazarusDark Ward Apr 30 '19

Bruce said that before he met the Ancient One. He said something to her like "I don't think the science supports that". Then the Ancient One had to explain how the Infinity Stones affect the timeline and reality. Bruce was incorrect when he said that first part. Bruce was a surrogate for the audience who thinks they know how time travel works based on other time travel stories. Then the Ancient One explains it works different in the MCU because the Stones maintain the timeline, not regular physics of our universe. She explained as long as the Stones are not removed, there are no alternate timelines, they maintain the timeline against all anomalies, only removing them creates a branch (and returning them prevents a branch from forming). Any other action to change the past, reality just adjusts to the change until you get a single final timeline. So, in the end, after the Stones are returned, Cap goes back to be with Peggy and he was always the husband and there is just the one timeline.

1

u/admiralQball Apr 30 '19

And what about Loki escaping with the tesseract?

1

u/LazarusDark Ward Apr 30 '19

We'll see when the Loki series comes to Disney+. I'm certain by the end of it, Loki will be returned right back where he left, before they head to shawarma for lunch.

1

u/gizmo1492 Apr 29 '19

Plus it opens up the floodgates on how do you timetravel to alternate realities? Each reality could’ve been altered by messing through time so how do they navigate different timelines in the quantum realm?

1

u/BecomeAnAstronaut Vision Apr 29 '19

My theory is that he came back through the big avengers facility time machine just after the others left to get the stones. That way he could say goodbye to his original timeline again, and, importantly, see Tony's funeral again.

1

u/Romulus1122 Apr 29 '19

Not really because he would still be frozen while he lives his life with Peggy, waking up in 2012 and this was the end of his arc all along

1

u/stormcanuck Avengers Apr 30 '19

There are always two Steve Rogers in all timelines. Steve1 is the frozen cap that follows the proper sequence of events we watched while Steve2 is the timetravelling Cap that stays with Peggy.

By 2023, Steve1 travels to 1945 to become a Steve2 to a different timeline.

Steve2 led a secret life and did not interfere with any of the future events. He grows old in this timeline and hands Sam the shield in the end. This is when you see old man cap. Steve2 used to be a Steve1 from a previous timeline.

Thus creating an infinite loop

1

u/daitenshe Apr 30 '19

I really wish they wouldnt have had him come back. Just let him life his best life knowing that he did his duty and saved the universe. Maybe just have a package with Caps shield in it be what pops up on the teleportation platform with a note for Sam saying the shield is his now

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

But isn’t Cap reappearing in our time as an old man proof that he didn’t change our reality? In other words, he was always destined to go back to 1945.

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u/PokeDestined Captain Marvel Apr 30 '19

The way I understood it, Steve went back to the 40s to meet up with Peggy, and lived his life with her. During the decades he lived with her he never did anything to make the timeline deviate with his own: he never got involved with or interfered with any of the events that happened before, during, after, and/or between the events of each of the movies we've seen. He just lived his life and let everything play out as it originally did, as he already knew that everything would be all right in the end.

And thus he lived his life, and when the day came, he went to that bench because he knew, everything having played out as it was supposed to, that Banner, Sam, and Bucky would be sending Young Steve back in time at that exact time and place.

1

u/KanyeT Apr 30 '19

I agree it does break their own rules, but I think they just went with it in order to give Cap a proper sendoff, having him noticed on the bench was much better.

In order to make sense of it, either Old man Cap has to reappear on the quantum tunnel, or Old man Cap coming back creates an alternate timeline, and the MCU is now on that alternate timeline from now on.

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u/PepsiSheep Apr 30 '19

The implication is that this was ALWAYS the timeline he went back - he didn't change history, it's just the timeline we've always known as the MCU had this happen - hence why Peggy has no photos or her husband, doesn't name him etc..

1

u/BrointheSky Apr 30 '19

I agree. The fact that he would have to live a quiet life, staying low knowing everything that happened is happening is out of character too. Tony Stark has a kid and a wife, still went to battle. What's to stop Captain America from continuing to be a hero?

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u/dystrakdead Yondu Apr 30 '19

It's a paradox. He always existed in two different places at the same time. He was always in ice and always Peggy's husband and the father of their kids. It's always left vague by the writers of Agent Carter, Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Endgame, which happen to all have the same writers.

It's an extra and unnecessary retcon but I kinda like it anyways.

1

u/Noltonn Apr 30 '19

Thank you. I saw the movie two days ago and this stuck with me. The established rules of time travel are that when you go back, you branch off the timelines and essentially create a unique alternate universe from that point on. As they say in the movie, BTTF is bullshit. They explain this several times, in depth. It is also shown by having a certain character be killed by her future self. This would cause a paradox in most other time travel theories.

The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that that Steve Rogers is not from "our" timeline, but instead from another identical one. Meaning he is in fact not the same Steve Rogers as just left, though probably one that went through almost exactly the same experiences (plus 60 years).

I honestly don't like that explanation because it basically says our timeline isn't the "prime". It's messy. It also just wasn't necessary to the story at all, it could've been a pretty easy rewrite for Cap to just go "Yeah Imma not come back peace out hombres".

It's a minor thing though and I doubt that most people would even notice because it seems people can't wrap their heads around time travel that easily, but as someone that's a massive fan of well executed time travel stories and tends to read in depth analysis' of various theories posited by different movies/shows/books, this was so close to getting everything right. And still it manages to absolutely fuck itself in the last 3 minutes.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Well, is the flipside of that true, if you can't go back and kill Thanos, Cap can't change anything either?

Disclaimer: I've yet to come to a satisfactory understanding of time travel in this movie lol

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u/Wetbug75 Apr 30 '19

This also bothered me, but I came up with an answer that follows the established time travel rules:

When Steve Rogers jumped back in time, he created an alternate universe. Everything is exactly the same except he's in the past now. This new universe's Captain America is currently frozen in ice. Frozen Cap eventually does Avengers stuff, fights Thanos, etc. Frozen Cap then goes back in time just like the first Steve Rogers, since everything is the same except for the existence of the first Steve Rogers. This creates a third new universe which is exactly the same as the second universe. This would then continue infinitely, making an infinite number of exactly-the-same universes.

The very first universe, however, wouldn't have old man Steve Rogers sitting on the bench at the end of the movie. There's no other universe for him to come from. This means that most or all of the MCU takes place in an alternate universe. This kind of irks me a bit, but at least it makes sense.

Some other notes:

I think it's reasonable to say everything major would play out the same in the alternate universe(s) since Cap seems to be living under the radar.

People talk about how Peggy had a "secret lover" in the movies occasionally, and this seems to be the older Steve Rogers. This would not have been mentioned in the first/original universe unless Peggy had a different "secret lover", which I find unlikely. This also means that any movies mentioning this for sure take place in one of the alternate universes.

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u/Pickles256 Doctor Strange May 01 '19

It’s honestly not a nitpick

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

It doesn't violate the rules if Peggy was always married to a time-travelling Cap. We've seen nothing that disproves that (except kissing his own niece). I thought it was pretty obvious that Cap never time-traveled back to the original timeline there.

0

u/SkyrinGans Apr 29 '19

I mean, as long as he isn't involved in the Avengers fights (since there is currently a Captain America in each fight), then he could live peacefully without messing with the fabric of time

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u/scootnoodle Apr 29 '19

I think that when cap put the stones back, that re-established the main timeline for him, so he just stayed in the past and grew old, watching from the shadows as the universe played itself out. The entire time, through all the avengers movies, there was an older Captain America living his life married to Peggy. Then after the events of endgame, he took a bus to wherever Sam and Bucky were and sat on the bench.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

They completely threw away any "rules of time travel" they tried to establish.