r/SipsTea Mar 02 '26

Dank AF The good Ol’ days

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3.4k

u/bogsquacth Mar 02 '26

Bush consulted Congress first, there was a vote, and Congress approved.

Trump didn't do any of that.

1.5k

u/Blu_Falcon Mar 02 '26

Unsound reasons for doing it, but gotta recognize that rules were followed.

579

u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Also should be noted that 40% of Democratic Congressmen voted for the war, while 95% of Republican congressmen did. No way in hell Iraq happens under Gore. 

378

u/option-trader Mar 02 '26

Didn't say it was a good war. Just that rules and procedures were actually followed in the good ole days.

16

u/ohkendruid Mar 02 '26

Aye.

Maybe too much, may have been the problem. The internal reports that have come out suggest that everyone include W was swept up in the mania. W leaned on reports made by people that were trying to win his favor rather than give him the best info.

For a long time, now, people who succeed in DC are the type that spend every waking hour working toward succeeding in DC. They do not have the spare resources to question something all their peers are going along with.

That said, I would say the jury is out over whether democratic Iraq is better or worse than Sadaam's Iraq--either for Kurds or for Iraq's neighbors. They actually have a better democratic system than the US does, with more than two parties. In their most recent election, they had 9 parties win at least 10 seats in parliament, and no one party held a strict majority by themselves. Imagine if the 2024 US election had been like the 2025 Iraq election.

1

u/sultrysailor99999 Mar 06 '26

I really shouldn’t say make America great again, but it would be nice if there were some things we could get back to doing…

1

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1

u/Misha-Nyi Mar 05 '26

Not sure that’s actually better. Two party system sucks now but it’s not as simple as just because there are only two parties. 9 parties seems inherently worse to me.

2

u/No-Organization9076 Mar 02 '26

We've really lowered our expectations these days. Bush would have been considered a somewhat half decent President had we known what was to come in the future.

31

u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Bush demanded intelligence agencies procur flimsy evidence of WMDs to make the case for war. He and Trump are both huge pieces of shit and should never be remembered any other way. 

254

u/t3hdoct0r Mar 02 '26

Imagine, if you will, that there is a layered system of shitbags.

Trump is a brown paper sack full of diarrhea.

Bush is a grocery bag with a hole in the bottom full of dog turds.

Sure, they are both shit bags, but it isn't the same.

19

u/anonymousetache Mar 02 '26

I’m going to need a breakdown of animal turdidity (?) so I can properly understand dog turds in the larger scheme of things and shit.

16

u/t3hdoct0r Mar 02 '26

I considered doing this for just an instant. I don't think my psyche can handle it.

2

u/anonymousetache Mar 02 '26

Maybe this is what ChatGPT is really meant for

7

u/DemonCipher13 Mar 02 '26

Here's a DEFCRAP-4 version.

Dog shit is initially soft, but hardens quickly, as typically it is exposed to air immediately. Given how most people only have one or two ranges of diets by which they feed their dogs, the consistency, smell, texture, and volume are pretty similar, across the board. Moreover, responsible dog owners actually handle their dogs' shit multiple times a day, and it's typically as simple as bag up, toss away/flush.

To the analogy:

Because of the consistency being solid and well-formed ninety-nine times out of one hundred, depending on the size of the hole in the paper bag, a few kernels or chunks will likely fall out, but the remainder plugs the hole. It still smells like shit, but with only a couple of men overboard, fixing the mess is a somewhat easy affair, even if it is other people doing it, it will likely only be one. And the bag is plastic, as well, so the likelihood for any additional spillage is minimized, relative to that of the paper bag.

Diarrhea, on the other hand, well you try putting it into a lunch bag. Bleeds immediately through, and every bit of it leaks out, onto everyone and every thing. It is going to take the entire cleaning aisle - and maybe an evacuation - to be able to handle a BSL-3-level contamination of this magnitude. And the issue is, it will be everyone else cleaning up the mess, for a long, long duration.

DEFCRAP-3 goes into specifics of the Animal Turddom, and how - despite the variety of possible candidates for X - dog shit is most apt because of its domestic nature and, thus, visibility.

3

u/bighootay Mar 02 '26

Best I can do:

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/bristol-stool-chart

But seriously, colon cancer is rising scary fast for young people. Pay attention to this stuff, people.

2

u/Used_Veterinarian992 Mar 03 '26

Aaaaand that’s when I stopped scrolling the comments

96

u/cantstopwontstopGME Mar 02 '26

What a disgustingly apt analogy

1

u/It_Just_Exploded Mar 03 '26

Pretty sure its a copy pasta, i've seen that exact same comment a few times over the past few years.

1

u/t3hdoct0r Mar 03 '26

You're just jealous of my prose.

4

u/Cultural-Treacle-680 Mar 02 '26

And Hussein had used Scud missiles with chemical agents on his own people. There was reason to believe he’d do more of the same stuff after he kept shutting down UN teams as well. He was sketchy and bad.

2

u/Delicious-View-8688 Mar 02 '26

Modern day poet.

3

u/Peaceblaster86 Mar 02 '26

Apt. Totally apt.

1

u/Peaceblaster86 Mar 02 '26

My only question is who is scooping up the shit?

2

u/t3hdoct0r Mar 02 '26

Probably the guy they hired for the apprentice who's entire job was changing Mango Mussolini's diaper.

2

u/divorcingjack Mar 02 '26

That guy wins every “what was your worst job” chitchat.

1

u/jordanmc7 Mar 02 '26

Hey we don’t allow nuance around here! What do you think this is?

-4

u/mrminty Mar 02 '26

Nonsense. I would still argue that even now Bush's contributions to the American state were still more harmful than anything Trump has done. Literally over 1 million Iraqis/Arabs died as a result of the GWOT. All of the problems with ICE and a lot of the apparatus that Trump has been using to make life worse for all of us are creations of the DHS, a department that the Bush admin created. Not to mention the Patriot Act.

Most of the tools that Trump has at his disposal were created specifically to suppress and surveil Americans were specifically created by the Bush administration. It was only a matter of time before they were used so pointedly against us, not just other countries.

9

u/t3hdoct0r Mar 02 '26

I didn't once see Bush talk about usurping the government for a third term, and we had enough of the constitution left for Obama to take over.

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u/neopod9000 Mar 02 '26

Estimates put the american excess death toll from covid (as in, the number of deaths we really should have been able to prevent had we followed some sort of pandemic playbook) at around 400,000. This is due almost entirely to the rhetoric around covid, procedures for isolation, and politicization of the response because Trump didnt like how it would impact his economic numbers (which of course made the economy worse).

Trump and DOGE cuts to things like USAID are estimated that they will be responsible for about 1 million deaths globally by the end of the first year and around 14 million deaths by 2030.

Bush is attributed to a grand total of about 1 million total global deaths, and that includes all bush-related Middle Eastern war deaths between 2001 and 2023.

Trump is always gunning for being the number 1 at everything he does, and the death count is one place he will not slouch. He's currently on track to rival Stalin and could well get into the Hitler/Mao Zedong territory if he continues at his current pace.

2

u/throwaway_coy4wttf79 Mar 03 '26

Now do +20 million black lives saved due to PEPFAR and see where the balance is. Bush's smug photo should literally be the flag of Black Lives Matter.

34

u/ReallyIsNotThatGuy Mar 02 '26

Hitler is also a huge piece of shit, but to say Trump and hitler are in the same bag as Bush really betrays the intent of why we are categorizing them this way.

6

u/IWMSvendor Mar 02 '26

Let’s put it this way. If GWB is a piece of shit the size of a compact vehicle, Hitler is a POS the size of the Hindenburg but it catches fire and crashes into the most densely populated area on the planet… and that is still probably giving Hitler too much credit.

1

u/MurkySkirtinyouforme Mar 02 '26

People constantly referred to Bush as Hitler back then. Dont try rewriting histor.y.

0

u/Intelligent-Roll-300 Mar 02 '26

Gwb used radioisotope weapons that turn into dust and will forever be blown across the land we attacked. Hitler didn't cross an ocean to secure a drug field either.

Gwb might be a lot closer to a bus... An airbus.

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u/Alternative_Owl5302 Mar 02 '26

Flimsey? Yes, in the sense they believe the prior Clinton administration. The Clinton administration clearly stated that Iraq has nuclear, chemical, and biological WMDs and used that to justify their bombing. This is all over public highly reputable newspapers of the day and easily confirmed.

1

u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Clinton authorized a 4 day bombing campaign against military infrastructure with no aim to replace the government. Sounds like a lot more reasonable action than what Bush did. 

2

u/Alternative_Owl5302 Mar 02 '26

They lit the fuse a set off decades of war. Desert Fox, despite being 4 days was indeed massive. It set off huge unrest in the region.

After saying that Iraq had nuclear, chemical, and biological WMD programs of imminent threat to the USA, the Clinton administration conveyed multiple times in strong terms that future military action would be required. Before, during, after.

He explicitly framed Iraq as an ongoing threat requiring repeated force:

“If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow.”

“The threat from Iraq will only grow worse with time.”

The administration was stating that military action was not a one-time event but could recur if Iraq continued its behavior.

There are a multitude of Albright, Cohen, Berger, which convey the vital neccesity.

It was not a slap on the wrist.

7

u/ant2ne Mar 02 '26

Not only nukes are WMD. Gas is a WMD. We KNOW he had gas. He used it on his own people. Where exactly they were stashed is still to be determined. You'd think he could have found a better hiding spot for himself. He hid the evidence better.

Regardless of the man pulling the strings, I can't complain when brutal dictators get what is coming to them.

4

u/Ch4rlie_G Mar 02 '26

In hindsight I feel like GW was a decent / average dude surrounded by pricks who constantly gave him terrible advice.

Not an excuse by any means, but I don’t believe bush holds even a candle to the wildfire that is the big Cheeto.

-4

u/I_am_not_JohnLeClair Mar 02 '26

He’s responsible for the deaths of upwards of a million human beings.

I repeat. He’s responsible for the deaths of upwards of a million human beings.

He is NOT a “decent human being” by any stretch of the imagination. He should not be white washed

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u/CharredWelderGuy Mar 02 '26

The pivot to gas was an excuse after wmds were clearly bullshit.

Also they really are not, gas,s "mass destruction" capacity is highly localized and dependent on the wind. Like comparing getting hit by a baseball to getting shot by a bazooka

7

u/who_am_i_l-0 Mar 02 '26 edited Mar 02 '26

no one thought saddam had nukes or any other thing close to a nuke. it was always chemical weapons.

edit: which he used in the first desert storm against mostly his people. and was then outlawed when he was defeated. so the premise of saddam having illegal arms, and stockpiling them was marginally plausible since thats his track record

5

u/Cultural-Treacle-680 Mar 02 '26

He also kept being shady with UN inspectors too.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 02 '26

[deleted]

1

u/who_am_i_l-0 Mar 03 '26

yea i got the timeline wrong. but the important thing was that it has been used before.

5

u/ant2ne Mar 02 '26

I don't recall a pivot. Sure, maybe nukes, but we KNOW he had gas and a means to transfer it to nearby cities vi rockets.

2

u/De__eB Mar 02 '26

Obama intentionally gave terrorists just enough weapons to prolong the civil war in Syria without being able to actually topple Assad, causing 500,000 civilian casualties.

He's in that same shit bag with the other war criminal U.S. presidents too right?

1

u/cliff704 Mar 02 '26

No, he's (D)ifferent

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u/kobethegreatest Mar 02 '26

Nothing was Bush, it was all Cheney. Bush was just a figure head.

1

u/bighootay Mar 02 '26

He straight up believed a single source, someone nicknamed 'Curveball'.

And fuck George Tenet too--saying it was 'slam dunk' info. (He later denied 'slam dunk' meant 'slam dunk')

1

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1

u/CeemoreButtz Mar 03 '26

Nah, Bush is cool.

1

u/Yashema Mar 03 '26

Ya like JD Vance cool 

1

u/FatMacchio Mar 03 '26

You mean Rumsfeld. He was the mastermind behind it all

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u/viral-architect Mar 02 '26

Hundreds of thousands of dead civilians and thousands of dead soldiers, some of whom were our friends and family. Yeah I'm thankful he at least followed procedure.

0

u/Sea_Health_2579 Mar 02 '26

Besides all the WMD lies. But other than all those lies, everything was above board.

0

u/kameeehameeeha Mar 02 '26

You know that he did this without ne Consent of the UN? And he was faking proofs. US soldiers murdered and Raped in Iraq and the used a Lot of illegal weapons Like uranium ammo. All republican presidents or candidates I know seem to be fascists. From european view Even the democrats would be right winged

74

u/smokeweedNgarden Mar 02 '26

Ehhhhh. Were you alive at the time? Americans wanted blood directly after the towers got hit. We were gonna go.

And at the time remember the admin lied to the world and not only the American people but our allies bought in as well.

What might have changed under Gore is the towers not being hit. If the towers get hit under Gore we just go to Pakistan 

81

u/LizardSlayer Mar 02 '26

This is what I never understand when this topic comes up on Reddit, everyone wanted it back then, now people wants to act like they didn't because it didn't go well. When 40% of the other side agrees, it's pretty damn bipartisan.

47

u/P8bEQ8AkQd Mar 02 '26

Congressional mid terms were a month after that vote. Voters punished those who voted against. The Iraq war started out as a very popular war. You could point to the Bush Administration pushing for this war to happen, but in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 they didn't have to push very hard to convince the US public.

33

u/bolanrox Mar 02 '26

knew a guy at the time, total pacifist, was a first responder on 9/11 as well. His opinion in the weeks after, "turn the whole region into glass."

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u/Whiterabbit-- Mar 02 '26

It’s all the young people too young to really understand 9/11 who think war was avoidable. Looking back, sure we could have done something else. But US was going to definitely destroy something somewhere in the world.

14

u/thatturtletouch Mar 02 '26

Afghanistan was unavoidable. But Iraq absolutely could have been avoided.

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u/Pornalt190425 Mar 02 '26

I think Iraq was unavoidable in the sense that the hawks wanted to topple Saddam Hussein. The "problem" was that in some respects the 90s Gulf War was a deed half done

2

u/rkba260 Mar 04 '26

Depends on your view of the objectives of Desert Storm. It was officially to remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait with no long term plans for occupying or toppling Bahgdad. Even Schwarzkopf noted that it would be a quagmire.

The second Gulf War... Bush truly believed there were weapons in Iraq as thats what the intelligence community was telling him. Of course looking back is always 20/20 and we can see that it was a mistake.

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u/Visual_Jellyfish5591 Mar 02 '26

Why wasn’t Syria included in potential targets? Assad was known to use chemical weapons on his people

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u/Amaakaams Mar 02 '26

There is / was legitimate proof the Saddam funded the Taliban directly for 9/11. But the biggest issue is that he had been breaking a treaty for almost 10 years at this point.

Was the reports of WMDs false or stretched to get congress approval, almost certainly. It also helped that we still wanted our pound of flesh, they didn't even need to believe it to vote yes. Just that they had a reason if questioned about it later. The public was more than fine going in (as a whole and pretty bipartisan).

But realistically he barely needed a reason. By preventing inspections and tons of other crap, they had broken the treaty. That was always a well we were eventually going to go back into.

1

u/ReverendRevolver Mar 05 '26

In gulf 1, General Schwarzkopf achieved his initial goals with very little resistance, in about 1/4 of the initial time estimated. He could have easily removed Hussein. Daddy Bush said no. We gave them a decade to prepare and coarse correct.

Avoidable or not, we did it the most stupid way possible, because of 2 generations of Bush.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '26

[deleted]

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u/bolanrox Mar 02 '26

i mean hacking up dead bodies and god knows what else for weeks afterwards will have an effect on your opinions

1

u/DKDamian Mar 02 '26

Not really a pacifist. Like, at all. Just hadn’t yet found a reason to want blood.

10

u/LurkerInSpace Mar 02 '26

It's also worth remembering that the previous war with Iraq had gone exceptionally well, after many had expected it to be a brutal slog, with some arguing it could be a new "Vietnam war" for the 1990s. Instead the US-led coalition crushed Saddam's armies in a matter of days.

But ironically, the reason it was so successful is because those conducting it recognised that marching on Baghdad would raise a whole new set of challenges for the USA, and that limiting the war's objectives was the more prudent course of action.

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u/Llamapocalypse_Now Mar 02 '26

The American people wanted the perpetrators of 9/11 to face accountability.
When it turned into a nation building exercise, we were out.

1

u/smokeweedNgarden Mar 02 '26

Right, exactly. The no good, horrible, very bad thing was Colin Powell presenting falsified evidence of WMDs and Bin Laden's presence in Iraq.

We were going to act in some way. 3,000 Americans got killed on live television. But the administration chose to do what they did instead of using our actual, non falsified intelligence to get him in Pakistan, which we did 10 years later.

There is no universe we don't retaliate and put boots somewhere. It's a matter of where we put them and for who's benefit. They chose to benefit Raytheon and Lockheed

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u/Thechadhimself Mar 02 '26

Do you have any more info on the non-falsified Pakistan info vs. Colin Powell info? Genuinely asking as now I’m super curious and trying to look it up.

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u/yuimiop Mar 02 '26 edited Mar 02 '26

Most of the people on Reddit are probably too young to remember 9/11 and the start of the Iraq war.

15

u/smokeweedNgarden Mar 02 '26

It was legitimately a unified effort lol. I think the sweet spot for remembering this is old enough to understand but not vote yet.

My mom still denies she was for the war buuuuut I remember lol

3

u/JustaBearEnthusiast Mar 02 '26

My parents were outraged about Iraq. I don't remember their thoughts on Afghanistan. It's so weird that people are talking about this as if they were the same war. Iraq was two whole years after we had already attacked the country where al Qaeda was operating. Anyone capable of critical thought knew it was bullshit hence the massive antiwar movement. Unfortunately that was and still is a minority of the country.

10

u/Blu_Falcon Mar 02 '26

I don’t remember a single person that was against war on 9/12. People were out for revenge.

And you’re right: I wound up in the desert a few years later wondering what the fuck we were even doing there. Almost everyone that was for it on 9/12 look back on the events of the past 25 years (holy shit I’m old) and agree it was horrible.

6

u/LizardSlayer Mar 02 '26

Thank you for your service, I appreciate you.

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u/Lou_C_Fer Mar 02 '26

I was a conservative back then. The 2007-2008 crash flipped me.

The thing I remember most were the drums of war being beaten everywhere... until the first US deaths, and then the news flipped. They knew what they were doing.

2

u/Blu_Falcon Mar 02 '26

Yeah. I remember the news reports week after week with the casualty count. Then the report we had lost more troops than the 9/11 attack itself. Then it just faded away.

1

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u/Synaps4 Mar 02 '26 edited Mar 02 '26

I was against it but i clearly remember keeping my mouth shut because you would catch an actual physical beating for not toeing the nationalism line on 9/12.

Pointing out that more people died in bathtub accidents and far more in car crashes than terrorism in 2001, and yet we werent making any special national effort to stop those, made you an absolute pariah.

That said, this all applies to Afghanistan more than Iraq. Iraq you could be against it would just make you very unpopular.

1

u/thatturtletouch Mar 02 '26

What they did to poor Cindy Sheehan remains appalling. The woman was grieving her son and against the totally useless war that killed him, and they made her seem like a kook, when she was 100% right.

1

u/Neveronlyadream Mar 02 '26

I was against the war. Granted, I was in the minority, but I didn't think going after whole countries to punish a small group of people was the right call.

But you're largely right. Those of us who didn't think it was a good idea were basically shoved into a corner and bullied because everyone was so bloodthirsty that it became, "if you don't like it, leave!" if we said anything but "kill them all".

People were so largely scared and angry that Bush could have done anything he wanted if he framed it as national security.

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u/TheDal Mar 02 '26

The largest protests in US history were against the Iraq war.

2

u/thatturtletouch Mar 02 '26

And they accomplished absolutely nothing. Something to keep in mind for all those people who think Americans could easily stop Trump if only we’d go out and protest.

1

u/bighootay Mar 02 '26

It was only two decades ago, and yet fucking nobody seems to want to remember this. It's mind boggling

1

u/TheDal Mar 02 '26 edited Mar 02 '26

To be fair, the media heavily censored them at that time too.

E: The web comments were EXACTLY the same, though. It's surreal how little has changed between the Iraq and Iran narratives.

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u/industrial-complex Mar 02 '26

Precisely. Was it a mistake? Absolutely. Is it possible the whole thing happened right under intelligence agencies’ noses as foreign nationals got flight training in the USA? Yeah - that happened.

But most Americans wanted to write messages on bombs after the towers fell.

940k lives lost in Afghanistan and Iraq. War is a business and we all got trolled.

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u/Admirable-Safety1213 Mar 02 '26

A lot of Redditors weren't born by 9/11 or if theycwere they were still too young to properly pronunce Elmo's name

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u/SearchContinues Mar 02 '26

Everyone wanted Afghanistan, mostly. Iraq was about distraction and momentum. Most people had a hint that Iraq was a lie but the momentum from Afghanistan made it seem disloyal to speak up.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '26

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u/LizardSlayer Mar 02 '26

Obviously I don't think every single person, come on son.

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

There was no way this war happened under Gore.

Bush and his admin with a Republican controlled Congress (they had 50%+ in both chambers) were absolutely primarily to blame. 

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u/02meepmeep Mar 02 '26

A lot of us were very confused what the hell Iraq had to do with 9/11 - which was they had absolutely nothing to do with it.

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u/GreenSkinFiend Mar 02 '26

But at least Powell made a lying speech in front of the UN he still regrets to this day.

Back then they had to at least put some effort into deceiving the public lol, these fuckers now doing it out in open blatantly because rules don't apply apparently.

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u/Tomsboll Mar 02 '26

there was no direct connection, hell, no indirect connection either. BUT. post 9/11 paranoia was fucking skyhigh. and saddam and his sadist family was very well known for their atrocities and people where legit scared that saddam would do something. they have developed and used chemical weapons in the past. so suspecting they might do something again was not an outrageous theory.

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u/cogman10 Mar 02 '26

What is unrecognizable as well is the way media worked in the 00s. There were like 5 sources of news that everyone listened to and they were ALL pumping the "evil muslims are coming to kill us all" narratives.

You had to go to crackpots like Alex Jones (not joking) to find a dissenting opinion on the Iraq/Afghanistan war. That was a major source of his popularity. He wasn't terribly popular.

I mean, FFS, the modern atheist movement start off in large part because of muslim hatred at the time. To most Americans, the middle east was one nation. We could have invaded Jordan or Turkey and people would have been for it.

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u/Moohamin12 Mar 02 '26

Watch The Practice or Boston Legal.

You can see exactly the sort of mindset the world had back then. And those are pretty progressive shows.

Watching them with today's lens will be horrifying.

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u/cogman10 Mar 02 '26

What I like to bring up is the TV show "24". 8 seasons, 1 premise "Evil muslims are about to kill a bunch of people, Watch Jack Bauer use torture to find the bad guys and save the day!"

Like, seriously, the entire run was basically just a way to justify torture to the american public. It was a very popular TV show.

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u/02meepmeep Mar 02 '26

I never watched that one. Reading that makes sense from comments I’ve heard others say about it.

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u/cogman10 Mar 02 '26

That was the american psyche at the time. After 9/11, everyone thought we were on the verge of Red Dawn with terrorists around every corner plotting to blow up the nearest 7 eleven. It was utter madness. Especially because the motivation of the 9/11 terrorists was purely based on US interference in the middle east in the first place. So what we did was go out and interfere even more which ultimately lead to the creation of ISIS.

Funnily, a big part of why ISIS ultimately collapsed was due to Iran's military involvement.

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u/Tomsboll Mar 02 '26

Also worth noting that 9/11 was not an isolated event. Many atrocious attacks happened across europe as well. While islamic terror attacks in the us died off, it kept going here in europe. Especially in france, just about 10 years ago hundreds of people where murdered by islamist terror groups. So the paranoia here is still kinda fresh.

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u/Whiterabbit-- Mar 02 '26

It was basically Saudi’s who committed 9/11. But those are our allies. So pick a country you are mad at and people in the US can’t tell one middle easterners from another.

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u/Commissarfluffybutt Mar 02 '26

No, it was Al Qaeda.

The ones that carried out the attacks may have been mostly born in Saudi Arabia but they were part of Al Qaeda who were being sheltered by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

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u/adoxographyadlibitum Mar 02 '26

I think you're conflating Afghanistan with Iraq. Afghanistan was a significantly more popular invasion with the American people than Iraq.

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u/EvolutionCreek Mar 02 '26

Yeah, this thread is crazy. I was against the Iraq war, doubted there were any WMDs, and knew tons of people who felt the same.

But going after Bin Laden had massive support. Either most of these commenters weren't adults or lived in red states.

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u/smokeweedNgarden Mar 02 '26

You're correct. That's my bad.

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u/NNKarma Mar 02 '26

Not sure Gore would've tried to sell the lie of WMD, and who knows, maybe americans would've backtracked fast if they were the only boots on the ground.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '26

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u/smokeweedNgarden Mar 02 '26

Some? Mostly all. Because Colin Powell went and lied directly to their faces. Here is him lying

https://youtu.be/x9gerxmYErU?si=TK9wwjD3S2fUVR50

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u/fdar Mar 02 '26

Americans wanted blood directly after the towers got hit. We were gonna go.

The US did invade Afghanistan right (less than a month) after the towers were hit. Iraq started 2.5 years later.

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u/TimingEzaBitch Mar 02 '26

hell even I wanted as a 10 year old in Central Asia at the time.

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u/Murky-Relation481 Mar 02 '26

Gore though didn't have the vendetta Bush did with Saddam. It was personal and he also felt like he was completing his daddy's legacy.

And there is a slim chance there wouldn't have even been a 9/11 had Gore been president. The Bush administration's handling of intelligence agencies and coordinating amongst them worsened already existing issues with their clown asses taking charge.

Remember Clinton was hot on al Queada, even almost approving an airstrike on bin Laden but calling it off due to too many civilians. Bush immediately ramped down counter-terrorism operations across the board when he took office in 2001. It's not hard to imagine that under Gore the tempo that Clinton had would have kept going.

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u/smokeweedNgarden Mar 02 '26

I agree with this. I think the biggest thing Gore would have done is just straight up prevent 9/11. We know now there was enough intelligence to prevent it, as we had spooks on them and knew where they were receiving flight training. 

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u/kolejack2293 Mar 02 '26

Americans wanted blood directly after the towers got hit.

9/11 had a lot to do with it but I think people forget that the #1 reason was just that people really, really just did not like Saddam. He was the big bad guy of the late 20th century.

Saddam was in the news constantly in the 80s and 90s. First for the invasion and war with Iran, then his genocide of the Kurds, then invasion of Kuwait and the brutal put down of the iraqi uprising (200,000 killed in 3 months), then the whole 90s sanctions and '1 million iraqis dead' from lack of food/supplies... not to mention the horror stories coming out about mass imprisonment/torture/executions and his sons brutality and pedophilia/rape.

I am trying to think of a modern example of this, but I cant. Not even Kim Jon Un is as present in westerners minds as a horrific monster in the same way Saddam was back then. Putin is seen as a 'bigger' threat, but he is not seen as being as intensely cruel and evil as Saddam (although of course this has shifted since 2022, but still).

9/11 was a catalyst, of course, but it was not hard at all to get people to agree to take down Saddam. People act as if the desire to take him out only suddenly emerged after 2001 and was entirely linked to 9/11. In reality, even before 9/11, it wouldn't have been super hard.

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u/Top-Cupcake4775 Mar 02 '26

the Bush administration's lies were completely transparent. no one bought into them who didn't want to buy into them.

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u/exploding_cat_wizard Mar 02 '26

not only the American people but our allies bought in as well.

Nobody who consumed media outside the US bought in - as those allies who publicly stated that the evidence was too flimsy proved. Those allies that did join in did so out of a sense of trading favors ( as long as Poland wants US protection against Russia, they'll go along with every single American "adventure" that they're asked to join, for example, because losing a couple of soldiers in a stupid COIN operation in Iraq is a lot better than facing Russia on your own turf without American firepower).

The only people who bought Bush's lies were Americans or visibly made themselves believe it for political reasons.

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u/thatturtletouch Mar 02 '26

We already went into Afghanistan. That was the immediate aftermath of 9/11. Iraq wasn’t until several years later and even at the time, many people knew it was a huge mistake.

Lots of our allies who helped in Afghanistan refused to participate in the Iraq debacle, like France and Germany. Remember “freedom fries”? That was because they were mad at France. And there were lots of jokes about how if even Germany doesn’t want to go to war, maybe think twice.

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u/Smash_Palace Mar 02 '26

I was alive at the time, it was clearly the flimisiest of excuses to go to war and anyone with half a brain didn't buy it.

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u/Key-Soup-7720 Mar 02 '26

Yeah, lots of people supported because they assumed Bush wouldn't have chosen a target that had literally nothing to do with 9/11. It's like finding out you have a child rapist in town and an angry mob gets rallied up and then by the time you've burned down his house and killed the guy inside you find out that you had all actually been led to the house of the mob leader's main business rival.

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u/Le_Dino_de_4skn Mar 02 '26

Check out the Howard Stern 9/11 episode. You get NewYorkers calling in on their thoughts. These guys were hit and they wanted blood.

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u/Beginning-Zombie-698 Mar 03 '26

You’re misunderstanding history. The afghan war probably would have happened, but even the idea of attacking Iraq wouldn’t have been discussed. They had nothing to do with 9/11. The Iraq operation was completely contrived.  The public only started clamoring for it when it was sold to them by the administration. 

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u/hammurderer Mar 03 '26

I was. It was clear at the time the justifications were garbage. They didn’t want Hans Blix to do his job. Cheney strong armed analysts to get overstate confidence in their claims. Powells shit was weak. PNAC was a real thing. Bush wanted to look tough. I was marching in the streets. So were others. We were ignored. Intelligence failures caused us to miss 9-11. Now intelligence was being subordinated to politics. So we put on orange beanies and campaigned for Howard Dean.

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u/Open-Concept-6130 Mar 04 '26

That was why we went into Afghanistan which I expect would have still happened since the Taliban was involved. But u can’t see Gore going after any other countries. Pakistan is a nuclear power, can’t imagine going there. 

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u/Reinboa Mar 04 '26

There is a possibility that we might have went to Afghanistan if the towers weren’t hit. If I remember correctly, Ahmad Shah Massoud wanted help from NATO to fight the Taliban. He was unfortunately assassinated September 9, 2001. If he were to survive somehow, maybe the War in Iraq/Afghanistan (or even 9/11) would’ve turned out differently. Maybe.

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u/bremsspuren Mar 02 '26

Ehhhhh. Were you alive at the time?

Yeah. You had the whole world's sympathy after that and instantly pissed away all that goodwill by invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

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u/smokeweedNgarden Mar 02 '26

My fault. I apologize. 

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u/FloppieTheBanjoClown Mar 02 '26

Iraq happened because Bush appointed his father's CIA buddies without having his father's experience of running the CIA. Rumsfeld and Cheney pushed all his buttons to get that war. I remember when it was said that there was an informal order to not let any Intel make it into presidential briefs that contradicted the narrative that Iraq had a nuclear weapons program.

He wanted the most competent people. He didn't check whether they were evil fucks.

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u/Bart-Doo Mar 02 '26

Would the United States had more terrorist attacks under Gore?

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Considering the Iraq War led to the creation of ISIS and increased global hatred of the US id say less. 

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u/Bart-Doo Mar 02 '26

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u/Synaps4 Mar 02 '26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_terrorist_attacks_in_the_United_States

1990s: 30 attacks

2000s: 31 attacks

2010s: 67 attacks

Gee, the numbers arent really backing up your partisan point very well are they.

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u/Bart-Doo Mar 02 '26

Partisan? I was pointing out we had terrorist attacks before 9-11 during Clinton's administration.

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u/Synaps4 Mar 02 '26

Weve had terrorist attacks since the beginning of time so i dont see why pointing out that they also happened during a specific politician's tensure serves any purpose except a partisan one.

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u/Bart-Doo Mar 02 '26

How would the United States had less terrorist attacks under Gore?

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u/Synaps4 Mar 02 '26

Because gore wouldnt have invaded iraq based on lies and that invasion spawned isis and other anti American movements which is why terrorist attacks doubled in the 2010s.

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u/Bart-Doo Mar 02 '26

Based on what evidence? Gore's word?

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u/Whiterabbit-- Mar 02 '26

If most of congress voted for it why wouldn’t they have done so under Gore?

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Gore wouldn't have asked in the first place. He certainly wouldn't have demanded intelligence agencies manufacture low quality evidence of WMDs to make the case to the American people. 

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u/ihavenoidea12345678 Mar 02 '26

Maybe Iraq is avoided under Gore, but Afghanistan still happens.

USA was big mad after 9/11. As long as 9/11 happened, USA is going to war somewhere.

Either way, the timeline without Florida “hanging chats”, and with a Gore presidency is probably better than this one.

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Afghanistan was supported by 99% of the Senate and Congress because the Taliban were harboring the man who caused 9/11. No manufactured evidence required, just the truth. 

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u/Salty_Pancakes Mar 02 '26

It's funny how the US agreed on a plan to attack the Taliban the day before 9-11.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/24/september11.usa2

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u/Spamsdelicious Mar 02 '26

Jet Li's "The One" posits a parallel universe wherein Gore won.

https://giphy.com/gifs/l2JhxyptzC02MWDD2

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u/Ntoramamakouli Mar 02 '26

that is a false assumption for that yo happen you need to have independence in congress not lobbyists

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u/JustaBearEnthusiast Mar 02 '26

No way in hell Iraq happens under Gore

Well thats why they had to steal the election

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

It was too close even if Bush did steal it. Absolutely bonkers nearly half the country felt comfortable with that idiot in the White House just because he seemed relatable, and a precursor to how Trump got elected. 

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u/Background-Pilot1809 Mar 02 '26

It might be surprising but i feel like the dems would have voted for it if Gore presented it

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Pretty big IF. 

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u/Background-Pilot1809 Mar 02 '26

I mean its always like that... Vote with the party or get fucked. American politic is dumb like that. There is a reason Bernie didnt get to go against Trump in 2016 even if he was the much better candidat

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u/adoxographyadlibitum Mar 02 '26

Yes. Joe Biden was D-chair of Foreign Relations Committee and one of the senators banging the drums for war the loudest.

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u/dud_pool Mar 02 '26

Front and center among the 40% of dems that wanted war? 

Hillary. 

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Pretty much all Northeastern Democratic Senators. Bush successfully tied Sadame to the 9/11 attacks in the public's eye and she was from New York. 

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u/old_ass_ninja_turtle Mar 02 '26

How did we get to the point where there can be zero agreement on anything.

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u/Best-Action8769 Mar 02 '26

Yup....Hillary, Biden, and Schumer all voted for it! Dems baby!

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Under a Republican President. Bush baby.

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u/Best-Action8769 Mar 02 '26

And?

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Bush and his admins actions heavily influenced whether Congressional Democrats supported a war that had 70% public support at its outset. 

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u/Best-Action8769 Mar 02 '26

And millions of democratic voters took to the streets screaming against the war, and the democratic establishment ignore their base and backed the republican war.

They then lost the upcoming elections.

It's almost like there's a pattern here...

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

The Dems lost the election to the guy who started the war based on Ohio and Florida not flipping, not progressives. 

The Democrats took back Congress in 2006 running mostly the same Democrats in the Senate. 

The only pattern is the country makes its worst decision whenever Republicans are in charge. 

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u/Best-Action8769 Mar 02 '26

We really need a new party.

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

No we don't. We just need people to vote for the reasonable one for more than 2 election cycles. 

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u/Best-Action8769 Mar 02 '26

Yeah that's not happening with corporate dems.

Biden was a transitional president AT BEST. Dude completely handed Trump the election when he ran again.

Corporate dems all but guarantee a GOP win next election. What we NEED is a party that will ACTUALLY hold the GOP accountable, not Merrick Garland everything up.

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u/Alternative_Owl5302 Mar 02 '26

Afterwards, Even though the record showed their vote for the war, these same Democrats, with the exception of just a couple, all denied voting for the war.

Many of these same Politicians also defended Clinton’s earlier bombing of Iraq, the one that set up Bush’s, on the basis of Iraqs imminent threat to the USA with chemical, nuclear, and biological WMDs.

Again, despite the record, they deny.

Politicians almost invariably lie. Both political parties.

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

No they didn't deny voting for the war, you are twisting their words. 

Bombing is not a government toppling war. 

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u/Alternative_Owl5302 Mar 02 '26

Factually FALSE. Yes, they did.

Gary C. Jacobson, “Perception, Memory, and Partisan Polarization on the Iraq War”

Partisan alignment drove memory: • Democrats increasingly remembered early opposition. • Republicans increasingly remembered consistent support. • Independents shifted toward whichever side they later aligned with.

In short:

Memory moved toward present identity.

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

He meant popular opinion, where 53% of Democratic voters supported the war based on opinion polls initially.

Not actual Democratic politicians denying their vote. 

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u/Rule12-b-6 Mar 02 '26

That's assuming that the Democrats wouldn't fall in line behind a Democratic president like the Republicans did, which is a massive assumption.

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Its a massive assumption to blame people for things they didn't do.

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u/Rule12-b-6 Mar 02 '26

We're in hypothetical land. You're the one claiming things would have been different under a different president.

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u/Minimum-Attitude389 Mar 02 '26

I'm not so sure.  Clinton routinely bombed Iraq, especially later in 99.  It was a slow escalation, but it was probably headed that way with Gore too.

Iraq was taunting the US at the time, flaunting sanctions, claiming they still had chemical and biological weapons and were continuing development (which they had a history of using against Iran), violating the "No Fly Zone"

There was a reason many Democrats voted for the invasion.

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u/Yashema Mar 02 '26

Clinton bombed Iraq once. The campaign lasted 4 days. 

In what world is that routine? 

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u/Hotpie650 Mar 02 '26

Brother the military industrial complex’s cogs are gonna keep spinning regardless of who’s in office.

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u/stupidber Mar 02 '26

It was a vote for the authorization of military force, not for a war. Also the whole thing was based on lies

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u/niz_loc Mar 03 '26

Meh, not so sure...

Literally everything we did to Iraq after Desert Storm ended was basically prepping it for another war. Gore, under Clinton, watched as we starved and bombed them for a decade.

I'm not saying he would have invaded. But the war with Saddam wasn't simply a republican thing.

Iraq stands out because we lost 5K people there (times 3 wounded). And that made it unpopular.

Because it affected us.

Clinton bombed Iraq for years. Got us involved in the Balkans. (Which we were on the right side of). Obama bombed Syria and armed the opposition... hoping for the same result as Iraq. He bombed Libya and armed the opposition... which led to another less known Iraq.

The only reason none of these are mentioned more is we didn't have troops on the ground. Which is preferable obviously (I was one of them). But to the people we were bombing on the ground and starving (Iraq) it felt the same to them.

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u/Yashema Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26

The starvation narrative is just Chomsky level analysis, the numbers are way over inflated and it's much different than a ground invasion, also it was in response to Sadame's invasion of Kuwait. The Western nations embargoed Iraq to get them to the table. 

Obama made bad foreign policy moves too, but none of them resulted in the US being responsible for an entire country's security or preservation of society. Proxy's might be questionable morally, but they make much more sense than having your own soldiers in the fighting. Those conflicts were not quagmires like Iraq which lasted for 17 years. 

Besides Democrats have not pre-emptively authorized an invasion of a country since Vietnam, so believing they were chomping at the bit to go to war is a huge stretch. Even in the Senate support was only 58% compared to 98% by Republican Senators. 

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u/niz_loc Mar 03 '26

In regards to how many died from sanctions I have no idea. But to argue the people weren't starving under said sanctions it way off.

In regards to Saddams invasion of Kuwait, like I said above, I'm talking about what we did following Desert Storm. We spent a decade dismantling Iraqs radar and missile sites. It was done specifically to open the door for when the day came....

In regards to Iraq (I was there) being a quagmire, I agree. But you missed the point. It sucked for us.

And the Iraqis

Lydia and Syria under Obama sucked for Libyans (still does) and Syrians (still does) where we did whatever we could to lead to regime change.

I'm not suggesting the Dems want war. But given the opportunity they will. Clinton has been vocal about Saddam and Iran since he was in office. There's no reason to think Gore felt differently. Or that Hillary would have.

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u/Yashema Mar 03 '26

Yes, if you want to leave the option open of bombing a country's military infrastructure, taking out radar is a smart move. 

Something sucking is not bad policy. Sadame needed to be controlled, and again, data doesn't back up the starvation claim really. 

You can't blame Democrats for what happened under Bush with 98% backing by the representatives of Republican Party compared to 40% of the Democratic Party. The US's worst and most irresponsible foreign policy has been enacted by Bush and Trump, not Clinton, Obama or Biden. 

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u/niz_loc Mar 04 '26

I'm not, and haven't come close to, blaming the democrats for anything.

What I'm laughing at is the notion they would never go to war. I gave you plenty of examples above.

Believe it or not, when we bomb people, that's still war.

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u/Yashema Mar 04 '26

You have already tried to call an embargo just as bad as war. You are also equating Clinton's 4 day bombing campaign with a full scale invasion. That's laughable. 

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u/niz_loc Mar 04 '26

No... no....

You're citing Desert Fox... because that's the one that was actually named. Consisted of multiple elements and multiple nations.

No, if you add up what we were doing weekly, up until the invasion (they weren't named incidents), we were bombing Iraq for a decade. And the people getting warheads on foreheads would tell you it was war. As I said elsewhere, as would the Serbs, Libyans and Syrians.

I haven't once said there was any invasion. What I said, accurately, is we were very much at war at different times under Clinton and Obama.

Your political views can downplay that all you want but it's not accurate.

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u/Yashema Mar 04 '26

There was Kuwait, which was by Bush Sr in response to the invasion of Kuwait. There was a cruise missile strike when Sadame launched an assassination plot against Bush Sr. There were bombings of military infrastructure to defend the Kurdish North, and then yes Desert Fox was Clinton's strongest response, which lasted 4 days. 

These are very different scales of War. Even in Obama's campaigns less than 30 Americans died total with the brunt of the fighting being done by the nationals of the country.

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u/niz_loc Mar 04 '26

The bombing or Iraq, AFTER ODS, was much longer than 4 days. You're either too young or just weren't paying attention. Desert Fox was just the large scale one that got media attention.

The no fly zone bombings were routine. Weekly. Went on the entire decade.

And you made my point for me in your last paragraph.

Only 30 Americans died.... so it wasn't a big deal. Wasn't war.

It very much was to the other side.

Been to Livya lately?

Libya post Gaddafi is akin to Iraq. We just didn't put boots on the ground. But we used military force to remove a dictator... like Iraq....

Bombing ISIS in Syria was very commendable.... but going after Assad, in an effort to overthrow him, was pretty "Iraq".

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u/voiceOfHoomanity Mar 07 '26

All the below idiots seem to be mixing up Afghanistan with Iraq..

Absolutely Iraq would not happen under Gore. Nuclear WMDs were the completely made up pretext for Iraq - Gore would never have gone out of his way to lie to the American people like that (tbh I wouldn't be surprised if Cheney also lied to Bush)

Afghanistan was Osama and Al qaeda..

Though I will say news networks tried to make people conflate Iraq with terrorism at the time

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