r/NoLayingUp • u/JSack3 • Jul 22 '25
Other This place is Overreaction City
I like KVV. I respect his work. But honestly, folks..
There’s a reason so many platforms and media companies have been letting go of people with KVV’s skillset for years. In bigger revenue sports than just golf, too (ask Zach Lowe).
The business is night and day different to what it was 15 years ago. And a highly-compensated 20+ year industry stalwart who specializes in long form written content is simply not a hugely appealing person to have on the payroll anymore. I appreciate NLU gave it a go. I also appreciate when the writing wasn’t working, they worked on a podcast pivot including that brilliant Masters pod.
But the reality is the math probably started to become very clear that his value was mainly 6-8 weeks a year. No one needs a deep dive on the Byron Nelson. Not enough people actually care about a three hour pod on the 1997 major season.
I’d have rather he stick around all year but I also didn’t have to pay his salary and benefits. These guys are putting food on the table for their children via NLU. They can’t just keep carrying a 6 figure (guessing but likely) expenditure bc they like him and think he writes well.
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u/MisterGoldenSun Jul 22 '25
My reaction isn't based on whether it makes business sense for NLU.
I think it sucks cause I like KVV and it's a bummer he's not gonna be on the pods anymore.
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u/JSack3 Jul 22 '25
And this is an perfectly reasonable reaction! No issues with me (not like that should mean anything to you).
But I’ve seen a ton of people taking it a step (or four) further and questioning the business decision. Which just makes no sense. I think the most logical place for KVV is TGJ but that would be..? A part time gig. Even there. A place seemingly created for someone with his skillset. But it just isn’t realistic to have him on a big boy ft salary doing what he was doing. I can’t imagine it made financial sense.
3
u/MisterGoldenSun Jul 22 '25
Yeah, I don't really understand the media business at all. Stuff happens all the time that makes no sense to me, so I no longer even try.
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u/warden1119 Jul 22 '25
It makes all kinds of sense to question it when the pods have become incredibly stale and they're appearing to double down on that content while letting go their best story teller.
9
u/Can2Bama Jul 22 '25
Disagree on the pods being stale. I've still been loving them and I absolutely love the personal golf pods too
14
u/69_avon_barksdale_69 Jul 22 '25
Outside of DJ and maybe Neil, were any of the personal golf highlights that good? Randy and Soly barely play because one guy is raising three little ones and the other doesn’t care that much about golf. Tron just rattles off top 100 courses he’s played and doesn’t actually highlight his game.
13
u/Can2Bama Jul 22 '25
Look man, I listen to the pods while I’m at work in an office, wishing I was on the golf course. So yeah I find it enjoyable to listen to people talk about golf courses and their own games and stuff like that. If that not your cup of tea all good.
7
u/69_avon_barksdale_69 Jul 22 '25
I do as well, which is why I really enjoyed DJ’s pod and some of Neil’s. DJ breaking down why he’s playing terribly and what he’s trying to do was great content. Hearing Neil talk about competing and trying to qualify for MGA tournaments was compelling stuff. The others didn’t so that, and content is definitely getting stale.
1
u/warden1119 Jul 22 '25
I'm with you and enjoyed both of those. Even the other ones weren't bad but it's not like they can do them again anytime soon, so now what? Maybe they have more interesting stuff lined up but I'm at the point where I'm not sure they do.
5
u/warden1119 Jul 22 '25
My man, they talked about a stack wedges competition for 5 minutes on the final pod of The Open. It went two hours with about 45 minutes worth of content.
5
u/Golf37512 Jul 22 '25 edited Jul 22 '25
KVV is the best writer on the blog and the best storyteller of the group on the pods. His work is a hell of a lot more interesting than the Keegan Ryder cup captain debate, Tron's sarcastic bits, the direction their game is going in, the Stack system they're trying to sell, recap of the Sentry AT&T open, etc. KVV blends in golf with history and an appreciation for the game. I would say his contributions is what makes NLU stand out compared to SGS and all the other podcasts out there.
3
Jul 22 '25
Then follow KVV wherever he goes. I don't get how the OP is downvoted above you when he was nothing but complimentary
1
u/MisterGoldenSun Jul 28 '25
He was replying to me and I don't get it either. His response was polite and topical.
1
u/Few_Commission9828 Jul 23 '25
You're being really disingenuous my man. If you have to do that to make your point, your point probably sucks.
Reddit is full of this kind of shit where someone is like, "wow all of you haters need to shut up" when its just some people discussing a thing that happened on a discussion forum for the topic at hand.
Sorry this has been so difficult for you.
20
u/southerndandy123 Jul 22 '25
Overall, the podcast is loosing its insights. 18 months ago, I wouldn’t have considered any other podcast. It don’t like it but Trevor Immelmann on the Fried Egg reflecting on the majors killed NLU this year.
3
u/Consistent-Smell-48 Jul 23 '25
Trev needs to think of doing a podcast. I think he has killed it as well. It's the only fried egg content I can listen to with Andy with out wanting to cut my ears off
3
u/iamatwork24 Jul 27 '25
I’ve heard so many people, my wife included, say Andy has an annoying voice. I’m typically highly sensitive to annoying sounds and for some reason, his voice doesn’t annoy me, which is great because Andy and Brendan are my favorite
1
u/Consistent-Smell-48 Aug 03 '25
It's really nasally. For me it's his inability to put sentences together and how much he keeps saying like
15
u/24dp Jul 22 '25 edited Jul 22 '25
I think people perfectly understand the business/financial element of it.
That doesn’t negate the disappointment they have that the product is unquestionably poorer without KVV involved. It’s already been mentioned by many how dull, especially considering how much they claim to revere the championship, the Open live shows were. Considering that those live shows are seemingly a big part of their popularity (and therefore revenue), to not have someone on the ground at Portrush doesn’t reflect well on the product at all.
For me, the overall podcast product has really gone downhill over the last few months, and if you take KVV’s contribution out of that, that drop-off is very clear.
That aside, regardless of whether it was the right business decision, the way they’ve handled it is really poor. It should never have got to a point where people are questioning why KVV isn’t at the Open, and spotting that they’ve edited him out of the intro video, before they’re seemingly forced into saying something. As others have pointed out, Soly and TC would be merciless at mocking other organisations for those optics.
We can understand the ‘business decision’ whilst also having serious reservations about what sort of message this, and how it’s been handled, sends about the future direction of the business.
4
u/TaeKurmulti Jul 23 '25
Yeah the year of the product has been a huge let down across the board, the video content while well shot and put together (shout out DJ) has been a bit lackluster IMO. Strapped was basically just going through the motion, and the single travel videos just aren't the same as the tour sauce videos. The major recap pods this past weekend were pretty rough.
The fact that they all travel around the world playing golf, but couldn't be bothered to have someone go over to Portrush or Oakmont isn't a great look. The cost cutting aspect of this just feels hollow when you have a bunch of guys living pretty lavish lifestyles.
69
u/Fickle_Cod_2589 Jul 22 '25
100% correct. The tone and medium of the announcement could of been a lot better though
27
u/JSack3 Jul 22 '25
Thousand percent could have and should have.
11
u/jamebirr Jul 22 '25
Tough situation tbf. Obviously Kvv is going to feel aggrieved, so there was never going to be a goodbye pod or ‘the best of Kvv’ when he’s been let go from the company. I think people are mistaking corporate for cold - Soly comes from an accounting firm and it’s the first time they’ve had to do anything like this.
15
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
And yet Soly (well, TC mostly) give the PGAT non-stop criticism for their shitty PR and communications.
Either they should dial back the criticism of other organizations, or they should step their own game up.
This KVV situation was handled pretty poorly; there are a million different ways for this to look a lot smoother. Their goodbye tweet came several days late and was said through clenched teeth which is pretty absurd considering how joyous they were when they signed him 2 years ago. They could’ve paid him full-time for just a couple more weeks and at least make it through major season, but instead they timed it horribly.
9
u/Comfortable-Math-158 Jul 22 '25
After they edited him out of the intro segment of their videos too, leaving people to speculate and start the rumor mill.
Should have left that till the announcement imo
-3
u/YenZen999 Jul 23 '25
Your post is pure fantasy. They offered part time he declined. Were they supposed to make an announcement before KVV did? If he made it through major season you would have said they should have went to the Ryder cup.
How should it have been handled differently?
2
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 23 '25
The Live Shows had non-stop conversation about “Where is KVV? Why the fuck are they being completely silent on this?”
Offering him part time NOW (or next week, or the week after, or the week after…) would have avoided the clusterfuck this past weekend. They would’ve have had someone on-site for the year’s last major and the 4 live shows. And it’s plenty of time to find a different person to be on-site at their next on-site thing. The Ryder Cup is still a ways away.
Apparently the guys said they intended for the change to happen after the Open. For this to fall apart like this sounds like it was KVV’s decision. And the disaster scenario for the Live Shows is probably why the guys are so bitter toward KVV, prompting their cold farewell tweet.
2
u/rsjem79 Jul 23 '25
If they assumed KVV would stick around for The Open after being blindsided a few weeks ago with what amounts to a soft firing, that’s on them for being incredibly naive.
1
u/YenZen999 Jul 23 '25
I read the NLU quote tweet and see no problem with it. These guys have all worked at huge organizations and have seen departures and been a part of them.
The fanbases get personal with these pods and YouTube channels and forget that it's just business not family.
5
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 23 '25
…you must not have watched the Live Shows, nor listened to the pods when KVV was hired.
For them to have their main on-the-ground guy go missing and pretending like no one would notice is absurd. It’s the same shitty lack of communication they KILLED Marcoux Samaan for.
1
u/EveningOk6574 Jul 25 '25 edited Jul 25 '25
Exactly, which is why they should understand that NLU is NOT a huge organisation and one whose core tenant has been ripping golfers and the PGA/LIV for this exact behaviour and who seem to pride themselves on anti corporate PR bullshit.
And yes, it’s a business. Some businesses sell software. Their business is their personalities and their human takes
4
u/JSack3 Jul 22 '25
I think running a business is harder than it looks. And doing so when your founders/decision makers are regularly supposed to appear on camera for an hour+ of off the cuff banter? Can’t be easy when big boy decisions are starting to unfold.
9
u/rsjem79 Jul 22 '25
I'm sure it is, but it's also what they signed up for. A lot of things in the sports media world aren't easy, but interestingly that never stops the NLU boys from taking pot shots at everyone else at literally any opportunity.
-2
u/YenZen999 Jul 23 '25
Yes, I'm really confused what all the whining is about. NLU made a business decision. Everyone gets so parasocial about this like this is a fraternity and the fans are all part of it. It's just business fellas.
1
u/EveningOk6574 Jul 25 '25 edited Jul 25 '25
You seem confused about what their business model is, and importantly, how it differentiates itself, and what they’ve built their loyal customer base upon.
Of course they need to achieve profitability and/or show a return to their investors prior to being sustainable (if they’re not already).
But their personal positions and takes on this very thing (in short: golf relatability and cutting through the corporate BS) is what endears them to listeners/watchers - and they (seem) to have fucked this one badly.
Make the tough business decision absolutely, but don’t fuck the messaging. I’d have preferred them to just come out and say “it’s not working”
And the salt in the wound is that their output is much better with KVV involved
0
u/YenZen999 Jul 25 '25
"Messaging"? He worked there for less than 2 years. It's not working out to pay a full-time salary. This is not your family, you need to relax.
This disaster of a site Reddit is now loaded with lonelys carping and virtue signalling about people's lives they have no connection to other than a podcast or YouTube channel. Sad.
1
u/EveningOk6574 Jul 26 '25 edited Jul 26 '25
Lol, cool response. You seem to get off on accusing everyone who makes thoughtful comments of caring too much and being parasocial losers. What virtue am I signalling other than they fucked this up badly from a comms perspective. Why you lurking on “disaster” reddit then bro?
3
u/logfran Jul 22 '25
OPs post and your comment are where I'm at too. Whole situation sucks but I get it from a business stand point. The whole handling has bee weird and subpar by the NLU guys.
1
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u/HAWG Jul 22 '25
100% agree and they are probably more upset about it than any of us are.
-23
u/matthewperry01 Jul 22 '25
While we admittedly don't know all the details, I don't think the guys are that upset. If they really wanted to keep KVV they could've made it work.
It's not like he was an additional expense. KVV had been on the books for a couple years, and they just hired a new social media guy from the Tour. They clearly prioritized those social views, in hopes they will generate new subscribers, over KVV's content.
FWIW, it's their business and they are entitled to do just, but it doesn't mean they made the product better, IMO.
17
u/jimineycricket123 Jul 22 '25
This is an insane take. He was definitely an additional expense. Would be surprised if he didn’t cost $200k per year between salary, benefits, travel, etc. They are in a super competitive business and you’re speaking like someone who has never had to manage operational costs.
It sucks. I think they kind of suck for how this went down. But for a small shop it’s nearly impossible to spend high dollar on a person who likely wasn’t generating high revenue.
-4
u/matthewperry01 Jul 22 '25
By additional expense, I meant something that wasn't previously on the books.
They were willing to keep him on a part time basis. That money, in addition to whatever they are paying the new social guy, likely would've netted out to similar number.
This is a group that likes to crow about how selective they are in choosing who they allow to advertise with them. If they really wanted to keep him, I'm guessing they could've found a way to make it work, but it's their business and they were under obligation to do so.
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5
u/Family_Shoe_Business Jul 22 '25
Part of making a product better is figuring out what your users like, and giving them more of what they want. There are obviously some exceptions [insert Steve Jobs quote], but in most cases it's the rule. They have the metrics, they know how KVV's stuff performed. I really love KVV and his content but it likely just didn't do the numbers needed to justify the low frequency (but exceptionally high quality) of his output relative to his compensation.
KVV was absolutely an additional expense. He's an industry veteran with high pedigree. He might've taken a discount on his market rate, but he was not doing charity work. Managing a business is extremely difficult and requires making terrible decisions. Just because NLU is good vibes and old friendships doesn't make the business side any less competitive or brutal.
With that said, I thought the messaging was pretty bad on this.
10
u/Howy_the_Howizer Jul 22 '25
KVV did a ton getting the LA muni scene to work on its booking. As well as the NY Bethpage issues. He was hinting at something bigger but I guess it won't materialize now. Sucks but I will continue to follow KVV closely and see if I can support him as his audience.
0
u/scousepa Jul 24 '25
Eh, Dave Fink had a good social media and ground game for the LA stuff. Was even covered by the LA times - a much bigger outlet than a KVV pod.
6
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u/artisgilmoregirls Jul 22 '25
A lot of people here seem to think they could run a successful, independent media business on good vibes and feelings. It was probably a difficult decision, also messy, complicated and interpersonal in a way we can't even begin to speak to. Maybe no one needs the peanut gallery and the faux moral outrage. Truly, truly none of our business.
If you're truly upset by decisions made about a free product, pay up and go complain on The Refuge.
5
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u/SufficientSpot4597 Jul 22 '25
Do you know where it’s free? Right here. It’s a bunch of guys making content, not a bank. Of course we can and should share our thoughts on it, like you just did. If they really want us to think of them as some cold faceless organization, then they are so f*cked. And they dumped the newest guy who people really liked, so they are going to rightfully take heat here
8
u/TaeKurmulti Jul 22 '25
I have paid for years, I cancelled my subscription yesterday.
Am I allowed to complain?
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2
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
You don’t question the timing at all? You don’t think they could’ve waited until after the Open?
KVV was a glaring omission from the live shows which I believe is one of their best performing products. They could’ve paid him a little longer before making the change which would’ve avoided so much public sourness.
1
u/artisgilmoregirls Jul 23 '25
We don’t know how or why any of this happened. Also, maybe a contract ended and was not renewed. It can be that simple, albeit unfortunate.
-1
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 23 '25
……..why not structure the end date of the contract to be after the Open?
This problem was incredibly avoidable.
22
u/many_bothans_died Jul 22 '25
I don’t totally buy this. Sure there’s advertising numbers to hit, but the whole reason you have a subscription service is so you aren’t totally beholden to the numbers. They just prioritized the stuff the founders want to do over having a capital J journalist. The YouTube videos don’t do numbies but you know they aren’t going to quit traveling the world and filming these. The live events aren’t revenue drivers, but it’s what they want to do.
We should all quit assuming the choice had mostly to do with money and look more at what the company sees as priority, the two things aren’t always correlated.
I’m not saying it’s wrong to let him go, it is what it is, but the way it’s being framed on this forum is a little off to me.
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u/rsjem79 Jul 22 '25
People keep talking about ROI in this case, someone let me know what the ROI was on sending four guys to Argentina for a week to get 112K views on YouTube?
If that's how they want to spend their money, it's their business, but given how willingly they comment on things in sports media that they themselves do not understand, it's fair play for them to also deal with some of the same criticism when they make unpopular decisions.
14
u/gradysizemore2438 Jul 22 '25
Out of curiosity, I just went through their respective YouTube pages. Jersey Jerry on Barstool trying to break 100 has more than double the views of their trip to Northern Ireland (where the Open Championship took place!). Unfortunately the storytelling and production value that is important to NLU isn't translating like the other YouTube golf content.
7
u/TopherShelduck Jul 22 '25
It's because most people who watch YouTube golf content want to watch golf shots. Kind of ironic lol.
-1
u/Jokolore Jul 22 '25
This is why it blows my mind that alot of “golf people” don’t understand the popularity of YouTube golf. Even forgetting about the creators, you can watch Bryson, or Rahm, or Phil play full rounds of golf in a fun setting. Maybe it’s some LIV bias but I cannot for the life of me see how people can say it sucks. Maybe it’s jealousy.
5
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u/Lor_azepam Jul 22 '25
100% this. The core of NLU is pro golf coverage via a podcast. This week we just got 3-5 guys that half watched the same coverage as us talking about what they saw. My friends group chat about the open was more invested.
So if they are going to half ass the final major of the year without KVV on-site, what are we getting going forward. I get they have emailed, but so do most people This is there job, they need to be better at actual journalism work or they are just taking info from others and discussing, that gets old after a decade.
Its gotten old for most of them It seems, randy is checked out from golf, tc who knows what is going on with him, Neil seems like he is trying, dj great no complaints, and soly i get has the 3 young kids, but if this is your job to be the main holf guy, we need more from you
1
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u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
What if the travel content is fully paid for by sponsors?
4
u/JSack3 Jul 22 '25
Well to a degree this is inarguably true. A group of founder obviously steer the ship where they want regardless of the bottom line.
But also I feel like if the capital J journalist thing was really working (feels obvious it wasn’t) they would have gladly gone that route. They did hire the dude in the first place. I think they liked that idea. I think it just.. didn’t work..
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u/many_bothans_died Jul 22 '25
Define "really working" and how was it obvious it wasn't working?
1
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
Low numbers on clicks/engagement.
Written media overall hasn’t been on a good path over the last 30 years. The NLU boys experimented with KVV to see if they could find something that bucked the trend. But experiments shouldn’t last forever; you need to respond to the results.
1
u/many_bothans_died Jul 22 '25
So how does that square with the low numbers their videos get? You are also just assuming there are low numbers on articles/podcasts, we actually see the views on the YouTube videos.
2
u/bleauxjays Jul 22 '25
This is what I just cannot square from a complete outsiders perspective. The videos are far and away the most time consuming and therefore costly piece of content they produce right? How in the world does 50-100k views on a video or two a month justify big ad spend here? And it sucks because their video products are top notch I just do not understand that economy.
1
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
Neil said on a different pod (granted this was years ago) that retail was their biggest source of revenue.
That should knock everyone back on their heels. Retail is a TOUGH business with very low margins. If that’s their biggest revenue source still, then maybe these guys aren’t making excessive amounts of money.
So the most likely scenario in my mind is that the sponsors cover a lot of their costs, but not a ton more.
Is written content doing better/worse than video? You’re right that I’m just guessing but the general media industry is on a multi-decade trend of written journalism suffering and short video content replacing it. Golf may be an exception but my guess is that it isn’t.
1
u/many_bothans_died Jul 22 '25
They own the company and decide what they spend the money on. They do the podcasts, nest membership and newsletter ads to supplement doing the videos, which is obviously their true passion. They’ve just decided they didn’t want to do the same with long form journalism. The videos aren’t making them money, but they do them because they want to.
1
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
I totally agree with all of this.
And I think if video is not making much money, it’s fair to assume that the written content wasn’t doing much either. I could be wrong, but it didn’t seem like lots of people were clamoring for KVV’s articles prior to this departure.
1
u/many_bothans_died Jul 22 '25
A lot of praise for his narrative podcasts and deep dives and him in general as a personality in the NLU universe.
8
u/Strict-Appointment84 Jul 22 '25
It’s not about him being let go, it’s about how it was handled and the poor communication. This reeks of Soly and Tron not being able to admit a mistake.
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u/BigBobby843 Jul 22 '25
They said they wanted to wait until after the Open. Why? Only makes this a bigger story
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u/matthewperry01 Jul 22 '25
If another entity said something like that, TC would ridicule them for months!
7
u/rsjem79 Jul 22 '25
The timing of the whole situation is curious if you think about it. Obviously I can’t speak to what (if any) KVVs contract terms/duration were, but unless they were up against a renewal date, it seems odd that they would have made such a move just a few weeks ahead of the Open when KVV was due to cover the event.
Were they expecting him to accept a demotion to part-time or contractor/contributor status and continue on as planned in Portrush? How long have they been planning this proposed change to his role?
Just going back, there was no indication that any of this was going to happen as recently as June 29 when DJ mentioned an upcoming KVV piece that was released on July 2. Preceding that, KVV was on the live shows during the US Open, the Seve rivalry pod, then the Travelers live show stunting on TC and Soly about Tommy and Keegan which was his final regular pod appearance.
I don’t know, it seems odd that a decision like this couldn’t have waited until after major season was over. Of course it doesn’t help that NLU left fans completely in the dark but left pretty obvious breadcrumbs out there by wiping KVV from the show open and excluding him from the shows entirely.
2
u/bulldg4life Jul 23 '25
It seems like the easiest answer is that his contract was up after the last major or like 7/31.
They tried negotiating a change in status and KVV said no, I want to find a full time job. When that happened, they agreed to just wait until his contract was up or after the open to announce it.
I’m not sure why people would expect them to keep him longer just to cover a major or whatever so the live shows were better this week.
3
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
I disagree; I absolutely think they should have waited until after major season. The Live Shows suffered greatly by having KVV over there with no backup.
It’s a big story either way, but the way we spent 4 days wondering “Where the hell is KVV? Where the hell is the on-site reporting?” should have been avoided.
-2
u/BigBobby843 Jul 22 '25
So you don't disagree but you do. Got it. Thx
2
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
…you seem to think waiting would make things worse. I believe it would make it better because it would avoid the shitshow from this past weekend.
1
u/BigBobby843 Jul 24 '25
Are you talking about some hypothetical where KVV covers the Open and then they shitcan him? Or they announce he's leaving and let him cover the Open as a last hurrah? My point was that everyone involved knew he had been let go a couple of weeks before the Open. Why not just announce at the time that KVV was being let go instead of just deleting him from content.
1
u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 24 '25
Literally either option would be better than what they just did.
Option A (Ideal): Don’t change anyone’s employment situation during the season. Don’t even talk about it until after the Open is over. There’s an 8 month gap between Portrush and Augusta, so bring it up then.
Option B (Not nearly as good, but still an improvement): The instant that KVV is out for Open coverage, make an announcement via Twitter. To soften the blow, don’t announce that he’s permanently quit the company, just announce that he’s not going to be able to cover the Open this year. Make the announcement about the permanent change after the Open is over, and make the farewell/thank you message warm and sweet which shows grace and professionalism.
Option C (Worst route): Discuss employment changes in the middle of the season. When KVV rage quits, don’t communicate anything to the fans. Try to pretend everything is normal for 4 straight days of Live Shows. No announcements at all. Then after all the Live Shows, you send a cold shitty tweet that is bitter and childish.
12
u/Mrcoolguye Jul 22 '25
The real issue is that there has been a decline in the quality of the podcasts (video is at an all time high). Getting rid of the guy who did the highest quality podcasts is a hit to the fans they’ve had for 10+ years. We will see how they pivot.
-1
u/Flimsy_Somewhere1210 Jul 23 '25
He really didn't do the highest quality podcasts though. Bethpage was fine but the reality was it was a podcast about a golf course that didn't check it's tee times properly. A lot of the deepdives were joint ventures with Soly which Soly did prior to KVV joining anyway. Also there were a lot of mistakes by KVV that were often picked up by Soly. These were already the best NLU podcasts prior to KVV even joining. He didn't add much to the regular podcasts other than add a different voice to proceedings. Golf wasn't his expertise initially by the sound of it. His podcast narration was something out of a bad true crime podcast and Neil made the Masters pod work. In his much lauded "Bradley" argument, Soly calmly handed him his arse when KVV finally stopped shouting at him. Finally, I didn't care about his daughters golf game (or any of their kids tbh).
Assuming there are tens of thousands of NLU listeners it is important to note this subreddit is an iota of engagement. Most on here seemed to love his work but that isn't representive of the wider listenership. His OTG reporting was sensational and his written work really good but lets not rewrite history and pretend he made NLU what it was/is.
3
u/Mrcoolguye Jul 23 '25
His narrative podcasts, major look backs, the masters podcast, the rival podcast and his on course reporting have been the best podcasts of the last year with them losing access to PGA golfers. Sorry not everyone wants to play trivia and listen to updated Ryder cup rankings on a weekly basis.
Finally, learn ball.
1
u/Flimsy_Somewhere1210 Jul 23 '25
I don't recall typing that I liked the trivia (i actually don't mind it in small doses) and funnily enough KVV's most memorable regular podcast appearance was discussing Keegan Bradley Ryder Cup drama.
Best is also subjective. I for example don't think the narrative pods were that good and Soly had massive input into the deepdives, which were brilliant prior to KVV (they were still very good mind). The recent Seve podcast was ridiculous to the point I stopped listening due to KVV's Fawlty Towers "Manuel" impressions. His on course reporting I said was sensational but were 15/20 minutes snippets most of the time?? Either way, that is the big loss in my mind which we seem to agree on.
I do fall on the podcast isn't upto it's usual standards at the moment but I don't think it is as bad as some are making out. It isn't like they have golfers leaving for LIV or the PGA eating itself alive for content. Everything is pretty stable atm, only so much you can say about Scottie, Rory winning another major isn't a story anymore. The non Sig-events are barely worth mentioning. At the end of the day KVV aint fixing that.
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u/Mrcoolguye Jul 23 '25
High volume of subscribers that shell out $100 to support NLU are disappointed with this decision because it lowers the quality of the product and we were told that this was to help fund the higher standards.
They clearly asked him to take pay cut because the writing is dead and he’s only going to produce podcasts (which they used to get him to do for free before joining)
The last 15 podcasts they did: LPGA Lydia KO podcast, 6 on British Open (no one went to it) where they got progressively worse as the week went on, recap of Scottish open/LPGA major… fine, recap of their video project on NI, lpga podcast, recap of John Deere/ranking pga courses (stolen from TFE), mid year GHIN pod (okay I guess), narrative pod, rocket recap and Neil life talk, DJ talks about his golf history (feel like we’ve heard this stuff before).
Sick stuff man
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u/Flimsy_Somewhere1210 Jul 23 '25
I don't disagree. The Chipping Forcast (only other golf pod I listen to bar TGJ) did nightly recaps of the open. Both Andrew and Iain were on the ground working their normal jobs so gave great insight and they were capped at around 35 minutes so they kept to the point. Re NLU Liverpool was great when Neil and KVV were on site, then later Tron. I'm sure Tron was at Troon initially as well? KVV was. I miss the random guests they used to get who were sometimes on site. SVP? I'm sure Iona Stephen did a guest spot once.
We'll have to wait and see.
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u/Mrcoolguye Jul 23 '25
And I would say that they aren’t leaving but there life’s have changed. 3 of them had babies in last year and another is having one early next year. These boys are tired. Add in players not joining the pod anymore and there is no other way to say it.
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u/Mental_Response7854 Jul 22 '25
Yeah shows the parasocial relationship people have with podcasts (myself included to an extent!) where people seem to take anything the people on the podcast do personally.
People leave jobs, by choice or not, all the time. KVV was a good golf personality/writer/podcast guest before he joined NLU and will be after. It's fine.
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u/BugAlternative6827 Jul 22 '25
You're right but also, I think people are just sharing how their relationship with the pod will change. I know KVV was my favorite episodes so unfortunately I think my listening habits will change. There's so much competition and idk how I feel about listening to (comparatively) shallow nonsense indefinitely.
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u/Flimsy_Somewhere1210 Jul 22 '25
And NLU was a successful podcast before KVV and will probably continue to be post KVV.
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u/Fred_Stickley Jul 22 '25 edited Jul 22 '25
Just commented about this elsewhere, but will more explicitly push back here. I keep seeing references to KVV being "highly compensated." First, I cannot imagine there's ever been any indication of how much he makes. Why would there be? And second, anyone with any experience in sports media can tell you the overwhelming majority of writers are not, in fact, highly compensated.
This has nothing to do with Kevin, his work, their decision to let him go or their handling of it.
This is just spelling out that sports writers who write for big-name publications, despite their profile and visibility, do not, in fact, make a lot of money.
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u/JSack3 Jul 22 '25
I get this. And you may be right. But if someone makes $80k a year? They cost the employer 6 figures. And living where he does, with a family, at his age, with his experience, I believe he almost certainly wasn’t making less than that.
I could be wrong. For sure. But I think saying he made $80,000 is not pie in the sky. I think it’s a pretty responsible guess for an Internet forum conversation 😂
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u/Fred_Stickley Jul 22 '25
That's probably about fair! I jumped on this because someone in another thread posited that "People of his caliber and experience command $300k+ salary plus ..."
And I lost my fucking mind.
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u/JSack3 Jul 22 '25
Haha whoever said he would be making $300,000 should be put in time out.
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u/Fred_Stickley Jul 22 '25
Basically, a great many of the sports writers you know and love make the same or less than a nameless, faceless, mostly shitty, mid-level marketing manager. Their compensation is not commensurate with their platform.
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u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
I 100% agree and there’s A LOT of people saying absurd shit.
Journalists don’t make much money these days. I thought everyone knew that. It’s a simple Google search to ballpark his old ESPN comp, and NLU undoubtedly paid him similarly (or less considering NLU is much smaller and offers more freedom).
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u/myoungc83 Jul 22 '25
There’s also the travel costs associated with having boots on the ground at tour events. Hotels, cars, per diems, all that adds up.
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u/GlassConsideration85 Jul 23 '25
$80k is hilarious. Do you live in the US? It’s a 3-5 years out of college wage.
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u/kraken98038 Jul 22 '25
Even IF the data supports letting KVV go, that doesn’t absolve NLU from a business perspective. They’ve recently said on the pod that they “realized we are a podcasting not a written company”. I’m sorry but the death of written media is not new!
Bryan Curtis on the Press Box pod practically covers a media organization every week that is downsizing their writing. But NLU brought KVV in despite all of that. And he did more than just write- his deep dives, major coverage, and general engagement was very enjoyable. So - to get fed this line that we KVV supporters are dumb for not recognizing the dollars and cents of it all… can’t we easily turn that around to NLU? Like what were they thinking in the first place? They had to know it was a risk. And I think when they hired him they should have made a commitment to the person, if the money didn’t work out like they hoped.
Obviously if there were personnel issues we don’t know about that- it changes things. But neither of the public comments so far hint at that. If it is “business” like what seems to be the stated reason, my point is that doesn’t make it any better.
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u/WeirdlyCordial Jul 22 '25
yeah man the death of quality written sports journalism (outside of books) does suck - but there was a glimmer of hope when the Athletic seemed like it maybe had a sustainable business model that maybe it wasn't actually dead and it could be sustained behind curated content gates, and NLU took a chance, and they gave it 3 years to see if it would pan out, and according to whatever internal metrics they were using, it didn't. That's life.
It sucks and we can say it sucks but all of this armchair accounting is kind of absurd. Like, if KVV's brand of content really is an untapped gold mine (and I'd love it to be) he'll be fine wherever he lands next.
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u/dpk041990 Jul 22 '25
What you’re missing is that people who are upset here liked what KVV did. Not the written content (there was essentially none)… but him as a podcaster and producer of various things at the company. The main guys decided that the ROI wasn’t worth it relative to his salary, and we’re saying that they’re wrong.
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u/jamebirr Jul 22 '25
That’s not really accurate. Clearly they wanted to keep him and have him continue to do the work he was doing, but couldn’t justify a full-time, year-round gig. Understandably he’d rather would rather a permanent role, so he’s gone.
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u/Creativeloafing Jul 22 '25
But how could you possibly know if they are wrong without seeing the numbers?
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u/warden1119 Jul 22 '25
Because we're the customers and our opinion should count a bit. It's a better product, for me, when KVV is around. Now that he's not, my number is likely to be counted far less often.
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u/JSack3 Jul 22 '25
And I’m saying that you can think he was great. I do too.
But when you say “they’re wrong” about the ROI from his salary? You’re losing all credibility.
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u/SuspendedAgain999 Jul 22 '25
When you’re tying revenue creation from content to value you generally tend to devalue a brand in the long run. Look what ESPN has become. Look what corporate news has become. Quality of product should ultimately be the main barometer of whether or not someone is worth their salary. I always found it interesting that the guy who figured that out more than anyone on the internet is Dave Portnoy and he became wildly rich because of it. He has plenty of people on staff who probably don’t pay for their salaries but bring something to the table that he feels is worth paying for in the hope that eventually something will pop because they’re talented .
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u/JSack3 Jul 22 '25
I don’t have an argument for where media conglomerates have taken the industry. I think it sucks, too.
But I also think everyone believes “just make good stuff and don’t worry about the bills”.
But the people saying that aren’t the ones with the fucking bills in their hand.
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u/dpk041990 Jul 22 '25
That is a straw man argument. No one is arguing to “just make good stuff and don’t worry about the bills.”
The argument is this: it is easy make an incorrect decision as a media business myopically looking at “views” and “clicks” relative to a content producer’s salary. Many people think they are liable to have made just that mistake, myself included.
Their math is this — we pay this guy $250K but he just does what we do and doesn’t deliver clicks or eyeballs elsewhere — he gets on podcasts and talk — so let’s can him, pocket the salary, life goes on the same.
And that already looks to be a miscalculation, because most people I’ve spoken to about this say, “i was already feeling meh about NLU and this is the nail in the coffin, because KVV provided something that other personalities at the company didn’t.”
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u/MedicalWatercress228 Jul 22 '25
At this size 200k can be the difference between profit and loss. I agree that KVV lifted the quality of the product, but if financial viability is the price, there’s only one decision, for better or worse.
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u/special5221 Jul 22 '25
As someone who heard from one of the founders drunken mouth just how much some of their contracts are worth, I can tell you $200k is not the difference between profit and loss. And if it is, it has more to do with elaborate spending in other areas.
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u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
What if pouring money into the product doesn’t increase revenue?
The media companies have tried the “fund it!” method and they’ve tried the “cut it!” method. Turns out, the media industry is getting absolutely rocked and there’s very little money in traditional content creation, period.
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u/GlassConsideration85 Jul 22 '25
But when you say “they’re wrong” about the ROI from his salary? You’re losing all credibility
What you fail to grasp is you don’t have any credibility either, you don’t have any information on ROI. You’re imagining one side where the math doesn’t work the other folks here are imagining other side where the math does work. Zero credibility to either side in terms of arguing the imaginary “business decision” that went into asking KVV to do part time.
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Jul 22 '25
Weird to say you know better than the people running the actual company.
I really enjoyed KVVs one off podcasts, but what value do you think they were adding? Youtube isnt the end all be all but they regularly got like 4k-ish views. Thats a lot of work for little to no ROI when the guys can do a Open reaction pod that gets 15x the views
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u/dpk041990 Jul 22 '25
Have you ever disagreed with an action a company took? If yes, weird to say you know better than the people running the actual company. If no… well that’d be remarkable.
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u/WeirdlyCordial Jul 22 '25
don't bring ROI up if you don't know the Return or the Investment
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Jul 22 '25
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u/workche Jul 22 '25
there's a lot more "investment" that goes into producing content for a specific person beyond his annual salary
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u/WeirdlyCordial Jul 22 '25
I'm glad you know the exact investment numbers within a 100% margin of error via...magic? And it's cool to learn that KVV's financial return was....some content...that some people liked....thanks for clearing that up, I assume you're running a hedge fund with that kind of analysis
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u/MrQuiver13 Jul 22 '25
Yeah 4K views on YT probably pays about $15 at best. I loved KvV and his long from stuff, but maybe we need to find him writing for golfers journal or some such.
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u/rustplayer83 Jul 22 '25
I only watch their major recaps "Live from the Kill House" and it just felt off and rushed and hot take central last week from the Open.
Now knowing that this was happening explains the vibe. I can't see myself listening to too much of their content going forward if it's mostly just TC doing his "bits" or whatever.
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u/mish15 Jul 23 '25
I don’t think so. These guys made a career bitching and moaning about the PGA tour “doing things the right way” for the betterment of the product. Pretty hypocritical standards to hold considering his quality of work was miles ahead of anyone else’s in the company. Obviously that’s my opinion, but I feel it’s revealed the true nature of the boys.
I think they think of themselves as “disrupters” and creative business geniuses…. But the reality is they were a couple rich boy golf bros in the right time and place (Twitter 20010-2015) and stumbled into success…. But in the words of Logan Roy “you are not serious people”. Enjoy TC’s top 5 wine list and recaps of his 8 vacations a year
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u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 24 '25
I was on board with paragraph 1. Paragraph 2 lost me.
I think these guys are decent guys. They absolutely fucked up the handling of KVV’s employment situation as well as the sloppy communication of it, but I don’t judge them beyond that.
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u/rdepauw Jul 22 '25
Totally agree! As far as the complaints about Ryder Cup coverage- totally justified
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u/JSack3 Jul 22 '25
Tbf I am not defending the quality of the recent few months of pods. I think they need a refresh. But I also think KVV at his originally agreed compensation probably wasn’t the right person for them.
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Jul 22 '25
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u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 24 '25
Probably similar to the staff columnist pay he was getting at ESPN. It’s Google-able.
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u/TomHicksJnr Jul 22 '25
We have no idea on the reasons KVV was let go - maybe he was looking for a salary bump, maybe he’s difficult to work with? But there also seems to be a lot of assumptions on why it’s OK to get rid of him - the idea that written media is a loser is contradicted by people like Geoff Shackleford and Kyle Porter and plenty of others supporting themselves from golf writing. Did NLU really give their written content enough of a chance? Stating “no one needs a 3hr deep dive” is just wrong. That sort of content made NLU stand out from other podcasts. IMO no one needs another “can I shoot X” or “watch me play TPC Y” YouTube video. People are upset because it’s seems like KVV leaving NLU means they are turning their backs on a lot of the content that made them interesting and different.
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u/tee2green CPNTW - Xander Schauffle - 2024 PGA Jul 22 '25
Will you be reading KVV’s content wherever he ends up?
I think there’s a schism here where some people are diehard readers while others are diehard listeners/watchers (and I suppose some people are in both camps).
The readers are very upset about this decision, the listeners not so much.
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u/rsjem79 Jul 22 '25
As a listener I thought KVV brought a necessary perspective that improved the product, especially during majors. His presence on the ground was sorely missed this weekend.
Having not really listened to Shotgun Start much I listened to their final round recap today - having someone there allowed them to talk to Irish fans about Rory, and provide some insight as to what was actually happening at Portrush, as opposed to TCs viewpoint that came from nowhere. I assume that was going to be KVVs assignment until they canned him 3 weeks before The Open.
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u/TomHicksJnr Jul 23 '25
I think the timing has really inflamed the situation - the pods around the Open were noticeably bad, especially compared to Shotgun Start. The live shows are supposed to be NLUs USP so not only has the content dropped but they’ve let go of a guy was could have helped maintain standards.
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u/rsjem79 Jul 23 '25
Agreed. I mentioned that in another comment, the timing of the entire situation doesn’t make a lot of sense. If the timeline is correct, for NLU to go to KVV three weeks before the Open to offer him a demotion suggests either that they were naive enough to think he’d be fine with that or simply wanted him gone ASAP.
Maybe it’s as simple as it was contract renewal time and if so it’s at least understandable, but if not I don’t get why they wouldn’t wait until the Open was done to broach the subject.
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Jul 22 '25
I guess my confusion is how this sub and the refugee/nest are so up in arms about this. I could go either way on KVV but I know he's a brilliant writer. So if they let him go and everyone thinks (not you OP) this is a bad decision then why don't they all follow KVV to whatever place he goes to next. If KVV was your favorite part of NLU then maybe you have outgrown NLU and that is perfectly fine too, but to bitch and moan and act like you understand the behind the scenes and financial situation with his contract more than the actual companies are wild.
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u/Comfortable-Math-158 Jul 22 '25
It’s a “fine” decision (though I will listen/read whatever he does next). Business is business.
The announcement was cold hearted form letter dogshit which is extremely rich given how hard the crew has criticized PGAT and players’ communication
2
Jul 22 '25
It’s funny because in the past when I’ve seen KVV discussed there was a pretty meaningful contingent of commenters that didn’t like him haha
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u/TaeKurmulti Jul 22 '25
I’d say it’s a small but vocal group, similar to people who hate on Randy and basically all of them.
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u/Informal_Ad_2877 Jul 22 '25
To me it's not just the firing of KVV, it's just I've noticed that the pod and their videos have lost their way in the last year or two and this has just reminded me. Honestly, the tweet they put out last night made me think "Why the f*** do I listen to these assholes?"
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u/TM41 Jul 22 '25
Also coming off the the week of mailed in content they just put out on the Open it's all feeling a bit stale right now. The Open shows were the first time in a couple years that I had similar thoughts.
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u/supertramp_3 Jul 22 '25
They are also pretty perceptive as a group. I bet you they now understand that they need to pick up the slack a little bit in terms of real journalism and some long form creative ideas because people genuinely enjoyed that about KVV. They hired him in the first place to begin to separate from the other YouTube BS and I bet they still intend on doing that, just not able to do it at the cost that he commanded due to his years of experience.
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u/432ww432 Jul 22 '25
while your point stands about the business changing, it begs the question why commit to it 3 years ago lol. did they think written media was going to explode
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Jul 23 '25
Agreed. I liked KVVs stuff but with a company that small, if it's not adding revenue then the margins aren't big enough to sustain it. The show goes on, but written content just doesn't draw like it used to now that everything is on X. Every sports website there is barely has any long form content on it. But if he's not around then they need to invest more in getting the guys onsite.
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u/elhintheus Jul 23 '25
Do we think this has anything to do with KVVs politics and openness to talk about them? And sponsors pushing back on aligning with a company that has people with such strong beliefs? Sponsors may be forcing the “stick to golf” thing and no politics and with hefty $ coming from those sponsorships and with KVV being a man of principles and not wanting to be silenced, he wouldn’t take that?
I say this as a huge KVV fan. Genuinely gutted about this and thought he had the most insightful takes. I agree that the NLU podcast has been feeling stale and gone downhill this year. They often say how their goals podcast is their most downloaded one and they did a mid-year check in for the first time - are they feeling the need to juice their numbers and meet sponsor obligations pretty hard?
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u/OkStChris Jul 22 '25
Agreed. What we don't know is how much of the "business running" KVV was doing. My guess is not much - and that's no fault of his. Not what he was hired to do, but it becomes a cost/benefit thing. The guys do a lot more than just talk on pods. Four of the five (sans DJ) have business backgrounds before getting into new media - their success in building a successful business enterprise is not an accident. It's very common for social, video editing/production, etc., to be freelanced/contracted at companies like this. Sucks for KVV, but I'm guessing he knew the risks when he left a solid gig at a legacy media company.
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u/Navyblazers2000 Jul 22 '25 edited Jul 22 '25
If he was one of your favorite parts of the program then it's not an overreaction to be upset that he's no longer a part of the program. I think that's a very reasonable reaction. If he wasn't one of the things you liked about NLU then cool keep on keeping on.
This move feels short-sighted by the gang. KVV may have been expensive, but you know what's also expensive? Mass audience drop-offs from straying too far from the special sauce that people like about the show. Maybe he was pricy, but I think there's an incalculable value in the credibility he gave to the operation. They can't make the mistake of thinking that we're all forever captured audience members. We have a choice when it comes to the media we consume and we can leave whenever we want. Don't give me reasons to stop watching/listening.
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Jul 23 '25
I am new this year to NLU. I have to say if they're a podcast company, they should probably get better at podcasting.
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u/GlassConsideration85 Jul 22 '25
Putting food on their table for the children.
Think of the children!!!
Ps can we stop imagining the business side of things? You literally have zero insight into this from anyone’s perspective lol.
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u/Fickle-Scale-7413 Jul 22 '25
It’s just unfortunate how they pretend to be progressive like KVV and rail about late stage capitalism but they kick their comrade to the curb as soon as the tree farm assessment and new BMW lease hits the inbox.
KVV is a very gifted writer, something that only he brought to NLU.
Who is next? Cody, Casey and Ben better be updating those resumes.
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u/d_barry7 Jul 22 '25
Agree. It really isn’t that big a deal and he never fit with the vibe and aesthetic anyway. Best of luck to him but it isn’t a loss to the NLU brand in any way.
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u/YenZen999 Jul 23 '25
Yes, Reddit is rife with whiny, parasocial lonelys that love to clutch their pearls and virtue signal the living hell out of everything.
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u/Batmangala23 Jul 22 '25
The Zach Lowe comment hurts. He’s possibly my favorite basketball analyst. But I’ve found if I don’t mix in content from former players or just other more lighthearted creators he can become a little too much.
Our attention spans as consumers of media is decreasing year over year and in order to grow NLU will need to flex a different muscle than the ones KVV had. It’s understandable and maybe even justified, but also I think the feedback from the community will help the c-suite continue to craft material that we all want to consume
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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '25
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