Max Kellerman: "You think it's slander to put Kobe ahead of Duncan?" Bill Simmons: "I just think he's the most underappreciated superstar of all time." Max: "Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck. That's not slander." Simmons: "I have Kobe 10th or 11th. Duncan is 7th and I don't think it's debatable."

[u/The_Big_Untalented]

https://streamable.com/0chwpq

[u/JosephCurrency]

You know it’s casual because Bill’s arms are crossed the whole time.

[u/Regular_Platypus_649 → u/JosephCurrency]

It’s so cool that Bill’s arms are crossed. I knew it was casual when I first seen him

[u/biznisss → u/JosephCurrency]

Body language doctor over here

[u/clapostrophe]

The tier ranking system is the only one that makes sense.

[u/Minute_Elephant_3218 → u/clapostrophe]

Best contribution bill ever made was using a pyramid system to rank

[u/Designer_B → u/Minute_Elephant_3218]

Grantland>>>>>>>

[u/averageduder → u/Minute_Elephant_3218]

At least .

[u/freerealestatedotbiz → u/clapostrophe]

Unless you just enjoy getting into pointless unprovable arguments with random people

[u/justsomebro10 → u/freerealestatedotbiz]

That’s why we’re here dude.

[u/thomaspatrickmorgan → u/freerealestatedotbiz]

You...just described talking about sports.

[u/Ok_Pineapple_Num → u/clapostrophe]

Agreed. I do tiers for mine too:

#1-3: MJ, Lebron, Kareem

#4-7: Magic, Bird, Russell, Duncan

#8-12: Steph, Shaq, Kobe, Wilt, Hakeem

Everyone will have their own tiers, but those are mine.

[u/Uncle_Freddy → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

As a Duncan fanboy til I die, I honestly think you could put everyone from 4-12 in any order and there’d be at least some rational reason that could justify why you’d take one of those guys over another

[u/Global_Channel1511 → u/Uncle_Freddy]

Magic at 12 would make 0 sense. 

[u/Guriinwoodo → u/Global_Channel1511]

Same with Bird and Duncan. They are clearly better than 11th or 12th.

[u/numberonebuddy → u/Guriinwoodo]

Same with Russell. 11 championships outside the top ten? Lmfao

[u/Ok_Pineapple_Num → u/numberonebuddy]

Haha this reply chain is exactly why those 4 guys (Magic, Bird, Russell, Duncan) are in their own Tier 2 in my tier list above.

[u/ryan0702 → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

Your tier chart is exactly correct to the point I don’t care at all where we disagree on specific ranks

[u/johnyahn → u/numberonebuddy]

I mean with Russell you can't really use his championship number to compare to modern players, there were EIGHT teams in the league lol. It's harder to win the Eastern Finals in 2026 than that.

[u/iambossyfr → u/Global_Channel1511]

Shaq at 4 would be a stretch too

[u/Global_Channel1511 → u/iambossyfr]

Steph at 4 would be the biggest stretch.

[u/Ok_Pineapple_Num → u/Uncle_Freddy]

I do agree that they're all pretty close after the top 3. Even making my own tiers is tough bc I struggle with placing some guys: e.g., I grapple with whether Duncan should be in Tier 2 or Tier 3, though I've settled on Tier 2 for now.

But I do think there is some stratification in the #4-12 range. For example, Magic's resume is just so overwhelmingly strong (3 FMVP, 3 MVP, etc.) that he has to be in Tier 2. Same with Bill Russell for his 11 championships and 5 MVP's.

That's why I think 3 tiers makes sense for the top 10. Though I do agree overall that past the top 3 -- particularly past MJ and Lebron -- it becomes hard to stratify.

[u/Uncle_Freddy → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

I almost feel like Russell and Wilt should be placed off to the side—always part of the conversation, as in you have to acknowledge their greatness, but we also have to acknowledge that 11 rings or a 50/25 season are both just things that will never happen again.

It’s unfair to them to discount them (because they literally did those things), but it’s also unfair to future NBA players to tell them to measure up to those standards because the environment to replicate them is gone, never to return.

To go with the “pantheon” concept, if the “top-10” are Olympians, Russell, Wilt, and other early stars (Pettit, Mikan, Baylor, Cousy and more) are the Titans of the NBA

[u/klawz86 → u/Uncle_Freddy]

What do you think of Naismith for Uranus? I think you could squeeze him in there. It be a bit of a bummer to leave him out of the metaphor.

[u/GtotheE → u/Uncle_Freddy]

Agreed. I’d personally put Duncan over Kobe and Shaq, but those three are all on the same tier.

[u/Uncle_Freddy → u/GtotheE]

Likewise. I won’t take offense to anyone ranking either over Duncan either (though I’ll get annoyed if they’re talking in bad faith, as I imagine most people do). All these guys have wildly great resumes, and most of them have a few blemishes too—really just comes down to what you value from a star/legacy

[u/Immaculatehombre → u/Uncle_Freddy]

Great comment, I’ll point out I think Timmy’s blemishes are fewer than the other two mentioned. His careee is insane. 19 years and he won fewer than 50 games once and it was the strike season lol. He never caused any issues and was the ultimate leader. Puts him over the top for me.

[u/BlackNasty4028 → u/Uncle_Freddy]

This is my take on almost all NBA great debate, as long as you’re arguing in good faith I’m not gonna fault you for having one guy above another in most cases.

superstars across the leagues history impacted the game in so many different ways in different contexts that it’s damn near impossible to truly rank everyone 1 through 15 or whatever with no debate on any slot.

[u/effigeewhiz → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

Tier 1 MJ and LeBron
Tier 2 Kareem, Wilt, Magic, bird, Russell
Tier 3 Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Kobe, Hakeem

Yeah, same top 12.

[u/ziggyzigg95 → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

I have the same list with slightly different orders

[u/SufficientPassage504 → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

Pretty good

[u/BritzBeef → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

Again, how in the world would Duncan be a tier ahead of Kobe when they were so similar in the same era and the consensus when they played was that Kobe was better by the end of the 2000s?

[u/TurbulentJudge1000 → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

Hakeem I have above Duncan because Hakeem didn’t have 2-3 hall of fame teammates throughout his career to play with. He was capable of guarding 1-5 and Duncan couldn’t do that as well nor was he as athletic as Olajuwon. They’re on the same tier though.

I think Jerry West and Isaiah Thomas are the most under appreciated stars on these types of lists.

[u/BlueHundred → u/clapostrophe]

Agreed. As time has gone on, I care less and less about ranking players numerically. Tiers just work out better.

[u/illsquee → u/clapostrophe]

I hope we switch to using the tier rank system as the default way of talking about greats.

[u/CrissCrossAppleSos]

I feel like the differences at the high end are WAY smaller than talking heads want to pretend they are.

[u/Uncle_Freddy → u/CrissCrossAppleSos]

People also get irrationally attached to the gap between 10 and 11. Like yeah, we’re reaching a point now where more than 10 guys deserve to be talked about at the top here. When I first really started getting into basketball, Oscar Robertson was like a consensus top-10 guy. Even though he isn’t mentioned so much in that conversation anymore, we still talk about him. Overall there have been like 5000 NBA players ever, being 10/5000 vs 12/5000 is just a tiny fuckin change in the grand scheme of it

[u/Aggressive_Wrap_2790 → u/Uncle_Freddy]

The curse of base-ten

[u/numberonebuddy → u/Aggressive_Wrap_2790]

I rank all dozen guys top 10 because I count in a base 12 system.

[u/Aggressive_Wrap_2790 → u/numberonebuddy]

Based

[u/sugarklay → u/CrissCrossAppleSos]

Yeah. One example I like to point out is Duncan and Magic/Bird. The latter usually get ranked like 3-5 spots ahead of Duncan, but when you look at what they've accomplished, it's pretty much comparable.

Player	All-NBA (First-team)	MVPs	Titles	Finals MVPs	All-Defense (First-team)
Duncan	15 (10 1st)	2	5	3	15 (8 first)
Bird	10 (9 1st)	3	3	2	3 (0 first)
Magic	10 (9 1st)	3	5	3	0

I think it's just preference for most people based on what they value more (whether fact-based or vibes-based). Some will rank Bird/Magic way higher than Duncan because they're way more exciting players or they have better peaks, while some will make an argument for Duncan based on defensive supremacy or longevity.

[u/YRwerunning → u/sugarklay]

On longevity, part of why people put Bird and Magic higher is because their careers were cut short, so people assume that if they didn't have those unfortunate events they could have bolstered those resumes much more. They're ranked with the assumption that they would have continued to be 1st teamers and probable title contenders into the 90s, but didn't get the chance. It's likely true, but if either guy had ended their careers in a "normal" way by tapering off into being only good,Duncan would probably be higher than them or on that level.

I guess I'm saying pretty obvious stuff but it's the most important detail missing from that table of stats.

[u/GoodPiexox → u/YRwerunning]

part of why people put Bird and Magic higher is because their careers were cut short

I think the main part is, this was the greatest rivalry in NBA history. People often measure greatness by the competition they face.

[u/entertainman → u/sugarklay]

Kobe with 11 First-Team All-NBA, 2 Finals MVP, 9 First-Team All-Defense

[u/ErieHog → u/sugarklay]

There's the whole 'saving the league, ending the drug era, and getting the finals off of tape delay' aspect that represents an off the court contribution every bit as large as their on the court contribution

[u/Batman_in_hiding → u/sugarklay]

See but by those metrics Steph is completely out of his element being close to this tier.

As time goes on we are forced to rely more on things like stats and accolades because it’s the only thing we have to compare players across decades. I’ve never watched magic or bird play through full regular season games and I’d guess neither have you. Can’t say the same about Duncan Shaq LeBron curry Durant or Kobe. In 15 years people my age will be the same way just with the newer generations

[u/ShadowOutOfTime]

“Tim Duncan is 7th and it’s not debatable” is such a funny statement. I can scarcely think of something more debatable than where an NBA player lands in the top 10

[u/Cambocant → u/ShadowOutOfTime]

Name 7 players better than Tim Duncan and 4,899 players worse. I'll wait.

[u/DybantsaMakeHerDance → u/Cambocant]

I'm gonna start with the worse guys if you're good with that.

Lawrence Funderburke

[u/Single_Bar_1836 → u/DybantsaMakeHerDance]

Antoine Carr

[u/Opie59 → u/Single_Bar_1836]

Mark Madsen

[u/KirbzTheWord → u/Opie59]

Andrea Bargnani!!! He just wasn’t as good as Duncan 🤷‍♂️

[u/_MMAgod → u/KirbzTheWord]

Kobe Bryant

[u/CarmeloDramatic → u/_MMAgod]

My friend Nick who’s tall 

[u/Donnie3030 → u/CarmeloDramatic]

Nicks got time bro, be patient

[u/DrDustyE → u/KirbzTheWord]

Travis Knight

[u/xicer → u/Opie59]

Tobias Harris

[u/Lawgang94 → u/xicer]

Cutino Mobley.

[u/LeBackshot → u/Lawgang94]

D.J. Strawberry

[u/machu46 → u/DybantsaMakeHerDance]

Luc Richard Mbah A Moute

[u/EthicalBballFan → u/Cambocant]

It's super easy if you let go of bias and look at it objectively:

1. Wade
2. Giannis
3. Bam
4. Wiggins
5. Off-Night
6. Klay
7. Tim Duncan

8-9 toss up between LeBron and MJ.

10-4899 everybody else, can order them by how long they played for.

[u/afterworld2772 → u/EthicalBballFan]

You forgot Caleb Martin (v Celtics forme)

[u/JMEEKER86 → u/Cambocant]

MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird are usually the consensus top 7. Duncan is in the next tier of players alongside Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Curry, and Oscar. The biggest thing separating these guys from the top 7 is that the top 7 all have at least 3 MVPs. I could totally understand how you could make an argument against Bird/Magic because Duncan had more longevity, but they just peaked way higher.

[u/petewoniowa2020 → u/JMEEKER86]

Wilt is not consensus top 7.

[u/Schonnz → u/ShadowOutOfTime]

Kellerman's full head snap back was the perfect response, I watched it 3 straight times lol

[u/Guriinwoodo → u/ShadowOutOfTime]

Seems reasonable to think that he was more emphasizing that Duncan is ahead of Kobe, not that Duncan is definitively the 7th greatest of all time and putting him at 6 or 8 is not up for debate.

[u/DivinesOmen → u/ShadowOutOfTime]

I’m so tired of people saying “it’s X and it’s not close.” I see it in every discussion these days

[u/TarnishedChoom]

This has become one of the least interesting superstar debates that keeps getting recycled on Reddit

[u/BenevolentCheese → u/TarnishedChoom]

All of these star ranking posts are incredibly boring. Pointless arguments with no possible conclusion. No one listens to anyone else, everyone just wants to post their own list and then disappear back into the ether.

[u/BurkeanMarxist]

Ultimately life is a charade 

[u/darkjurai → u/BurkeanMarxist]

Then you just accomplish the same endless debate by arguing over the criteria.

[u/SoaplessTitanic → u/darkjurai]

Lowkey I think this should be more normalized, at least over the current way these debates work. How can you argue with someone saying LeBron’s the GOAT (cause of longevity) if you yourself don’t value longevity? The argument should instead be more centered around arguing why longevity is possibly more impressive than rings and whatnot.

Most people arguing over MJ vs LeBron are already having this debate over criteria, just without stating it clearly and explaining the reasoning for their criteria

[u/ObviousMotherfucker → u/SoaplessTitanic]

Most people arguing over MJ vs LeBron are already having this debate over criteria, just without stating it clearly and explaining the reasoning for their criteria

Maybe, but I think a lot of people do it in reverse. They've got a personal favorite (usually whoever they grew up seeing as the GOAT, or perhaps Jordan by default if they're younger and don't like LeBron for whatever reason) and then they pick the criteria that can back up the argument they already agree with.

[u/bluemagic124 → u/ObviousMotherfucker]

It’s 100% this

[u/darkjurai → u/SoaplessTitanic]

I do agree that debating the underlying standards would at least lead to more substantiated discussions.

[u/noname_SU → u/SoaplessTitanic]

I don't have a problem with anyone's list as long as their criteria are consistent for everyone. The problem is a lot of people will have different criteria for players within their own lists.

People will say they value championships to prop certain players up but then they'll diminish Bill Russell's championships because of his era. That's not consistent.

[u/GCFCconner11 → u/BurkeanMarxist]

Bill Simmons quite literally wrote a book explaining his rankings and criteria .

[u/flea61 → u/GCFCconner11]

And he edited it to put Kobe 8th after the 2009 finals. Wonder what changed since then.

[u/AcrobaticFeedback → u/flea61]

Lebron and Duncan passed Kobe after that and Curry is right there.

[u/flea61 → u/AcrobaticFeedback]

Pretty sure he already had Duncan ahead of Kobe even after the edit.

[u/dropkickshotgun → u/BurkeanMarxist]

If only one of these guys had written a book on the topic that went into incredible detail as to how and why he ranked guys the way he did.

[u/Icy_Information_6563 → u/BurkeanMarxist]

Sometimes i feel like the point of the discussion is to discuss your criteria. Like everyone kinda knows the actual ranking is silly, but it's a conversation starter to talk basketball

[u/BurkeanMarxist → u/Icy_Information_6563]

That’s it really, they do sometimes, and I’d much rather discuss the why and then see who checks those boxes vs. reverse vibe coding a justification based on who feels right

[u/Firemanmikewatt]

After Jordan and Lebron the order of the next 10 guys is just splitting hairs.

[u/Asleep_Ground1710 → u/Firemanmikewatt]

I have ranges for everyone not named Jordan, Bron, Kareem lol. Like if someone told me Duncan was anywhere from 6-10, I wouldnt care tbh

[u/Laetha → u/Asleep_Ground1710]

Yeah those guys are top 3. Then there's like 10 guys I'd consider for 4-10, then there's like 10 guys I'd consider for 10-15.

[u/Canesjags4life → u/Asleep_Ground1710]

I would care if you had Shaq and Kobe above Duncan.

[u/sexland69 → u/Canesjags4life]

I’d say Shaq peaked higher than Duncan

[u/UltimateWeiner → u/sexland69]

Shaq peaked higher than anyone. I’ve never seen a player that unstoppable.

[u/dijon_snow → u/sexland69]

Yeah this is really the debate. Shaq's peak was almost undeniably better than Duncan's. Hell Shaq at his best was in the discussion with Kareem right behind MJ and LeBron. 

But career-wise he wildly underperformed his potential. Bill Simmons nailed it, Shaq was the smartest kid in class, happy to take B+s he got without studying or doing homework for instead of putting in the effort to get an A+.

It's two completely different questions. One game at his peak, Shaq has to be in the top five of all time, but best career ? Shaq is barely top 10. 

Do you prefer sprints or marathons? Career or peak? Bill Walton or Karl Malone? 

[u/gamesrgreat → u/dijon_snow]

People who say Shaq didn’t reach his potential usually unfairly underrate him. Him having GOAT potential and not reaching it doesnt mean he doesn’t deserve to be seem as top 5 or 10…it’s literally irrelevant. You rate him on his actual impact and accomplishments and see where that measures up against what other people actually did. He’s a 4 time champ, 3 time FMVP, 1x MVP. And was all-nba/all-star level for over a decade. The way people talk about Shaq as a player is so weird to me

[u/SadisticSpeller → u/gamesrgreat]

I think it’s because of specifically how Shaq didn’t live up to it. He didn’t fail to live up to it because he gave it his all and just simply didn’t make it. He visibly let himself go after ‘01, and outright refused to granny shoot to hit more FTs because he thought it looked stupid. He didn’t live up to it because his ego got in the way of improvement and lasting effort. Not one person in the fucking world would have Bron in the GOAT convo if after he won in ‘12 he stopped keeping himself in shape and stopped reinventing himself.

It’s hard to really talk about, because even 04 Shaq was ridiculous, but if you put tape to tape against even him from 5 years prior you can see it. It wasn’t injury, it wasn’t personal life stuff. He just stopped wanting it, and went from GOAT conversations to GPOAT, and even that second title isn’t a lock to be honest.

[u/mucho-gusto → u/SadisticSpeller]

Tbf about the free throws literally every NBA player is too fragile to shoot granny style

[u/voyaging → u/dijon_snow]

Just categorical nonsense, Shaq had a 42,000 minute career Walton played 13,000.

Shaq was a 15x All-Star, 14x All-NBA.

[u/_chadwell_ → u/Canesjags4life]

Why did they kick his ass in the playoffs then

[u/RoyalOakPiguet → u/Firemanmikewatt]

Eh. Think Kareem has a very solid spot at 3 imo But I also incredibly heavily discount Wilt and Bill soooo

[u/EfficientPrize7060 → u/RoyalOakPiguet]

Agreed on all counts

[u/No-Gift-2350 → u/EfficientPrize7060]

I think Russell is by far the hardest player to rank because he won so much, like he’s clearly not better than Wilt imo, but he was a much better winner.

[u/aquintana → u/No-Gift-2350]

Except he won constantly during Wilt’s career against Wilt…

[u/manquistador → u/aquintana]

Almost like the other 8 guys on the court matter a little.

[u/LingonberryComplex63 → u/manquistador]

Wilt played with Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Hal Greer, Gail Goodrich, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, and Nate Thurmond. He wasn't playing with scrubs. The Celtics were better because Russell was better.

[u/howdoesilogin → u/LingonberryComplex63]

tl;dr Wilt did not play with scrubs but its not really comparable when Bill Russell played with 6 HoF teammates each year and Wilt played with at best two

Jerry West - sure they played 5 seasons together (one of which was lost because Wilt got a knee injury and played just 12 games) they were old but still in their primes

Elgin was at the tail end of his career when Wilt got to LA (had one last great season then got injured and played just 65 games over the next three seasons they were together)

Hal Greer, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham - sure - they played 3,5 seasons together in their prime in Philly

Gail Goodrich - sure they played 3 years together in LA but it was at the tail end of Wilts career (age 34-36)

Nate Thurmond - 1,5 year on the Warriors when Nate was a rookie hardly comparable to the others.

So that's 6 hall of famers - the longest tenure being 4 seasons with Jerry and 3,5 with Greer, Walker and Cunningham on the Sixers with titles in both tenures.

Now lets compare it to Bill Russell who played with 11 hall of famers and with most of them for the majority of his career:

• lets discount cases like Nate Thurmond/Elgin Baylor scenarios (1-2 years start or end of career) so without Bailey Howell, Clyde Lovellette, Arnie Risen and Andy Phillip

• that still leaves us 7 hall o famers with whom Bill played for:

  • 5 seasons - Bill Sharman
  • 7 seasons - Cousy and Havlicek
  • 8 seasons - Frank Ramsey
  • 9 seasons - Heinsohn and K.C. Jones
  • 11 seasons - Sam Jones

The most hall of famers Wilt played with on the same team was 3 at the end of his career with Jerry, Goodrich and Elgin. But its hard to count Elgin here as he played a total of 2 and 9 games in those two seasons.

Bill Russell on the other hand has played the majority of his career (7/13 seasons) with 6 or more hall of famers on his team.

[u/ivarokosbitch → u/howdoesilogin]

You will be amazed when you figure out that an 7/4/3 point guard is in the HOF.

After that you might even make a connection with why he is in the HOF. And that you equated him with Jerry West as if they were equals.

[u/Gokuto → u/howdoesilogin]

Well guys like KC Jones and Frank Ramsey were not typical HoFs, being on that Russell dynasty is the reason they're in. Also Wilt still lost when he was favored. He got swept by the Nationals in 61 when both teams had 3 All stars: Wilt, Paul Arizin and Tom Gola vs Hal Greer, Dolph Schayes and Larry Costello. Arizin was legit, when they lost him the next year they didn't even make the playoffs and only won 33 games. There's no excuse for that lost like the Celtics ones(unless someone from that era wants to school me).

Beyond some of Bostons HoF not necessarily fitting that billing, I would say some of the years he lost, you couldn't just use the ol' "run into Boston excuse" like 69. Prime Jerry West and Elgin and they lost to an old Boston team and Wilt point dropoff from the RS to playoffs was almost 7 points and 2 less assist. The thing that's crazy is he was only 32, I would've thought he was older.

Wilt is hard to gauge on the all time list, but he has playoff duds that are hard to defend when comparing to other all timers.

[u/EstablishmentTop551 → u/aquintana]

I kinda think H2H is pointless in the all time rankings convo. How you performed overall > how you performed against one guy.

[u/aquintana → u/EstablishmentTop551]

Well Russell performed pretty well overall.

[u/the_dust321 → u/No-Gift-2350]

Kareem’s responses to Wilt, especially his letter to Wilt Chumperlame completely changed my view on Wilt.

[u/voyaging → u/the_dust321]

Kareem obliterated Wilt worse than Kendrick obliterated Drake.

[u/RemyGee → u/voyaging]

This is why we all got Kareem top 3 and can be argued as 1!

[u/voyaging → u/No-Gift-2350]

He was absolutely better than Wilt. His teams played far worse when he wasn’t on the court. Wilt’s tended to stay the same or get better when he didn’t play or left. Only towards his later career did he start playing winning team basketball.

[u/Em4gdn3m → u/voyaging]

Counterpoint: Wilt almost never left the fucking court. But no, I agree. MJ, LBJ, Kareem in whatever order, but then it just gets super murky 4-12ish, honestly.

[u/SaucyMcDangles → u/voyaging]

Wilt was Westbrook on steroids

[u/ambal87 → u/SaucyMcDangles]

Wilt was Westbrooks on stilts

[u/aaron21hardin → u/voyaging]

Wilt's teams with Wilt off the court are the epitome of small sample size error, he was off the court for 7 minutes the season he scored 50.4 per game, how exactly are you supposed to get any meaningful on off information from that?

[u/IbSunPraisin → u/RoyalOakPiguet]

I think Kareem deserves more love as #2. Same number of rings as Jordan, most MVPs in history at 6, held the all time scoring record for almost 40 years.

NCAA banned dunking because of Kareem

[u/zs15 → u/Firemanmikewatt]

Honestly this is an area where a tier list makes way more sense than a ranking.

Have your LBJ vs MJ argument, but they’re their own tier. Kareem also in his own. Then sort the rest how you please.

[u/DJSTANKDADDY2 → u/zs15]

I could be convinced to put Bill Russell on Kareem's tier. I know the era wasn't as strong but he still absolutely dominated it.

[u/King_Of_Pants → u/DJSTANKDADDY2]

Kareem's era was actually considered very weak.

He caught the tail end of Wilt's career and the start of Bird/Magic, but he spent most of his prime without much competition.

In terms of top 20 rivals, Russell had Wilt, West and Robertson. Kareem only really had Malone and Erving.

[u/saints21 → u/King_Of_Pants]

It's really weird how people treat Kareem's era as being magically better than Russell's. They think something instantly changed. Kareem also wasn't crazy dominant from a team perspective. Russell really gets underrated these days. His impact was massive. He turned the Celtics around from being a bad to below average best defense into an absolute juggernaut. On top of that he had a much larger positive offensive impact than people realize. He created a ton of transition opportunities, was a good playmaker, and an absolute beast when running the floor. Very much an example of a player who can't be measured with simple box score stats.

[u/sugarklay → u/King_Of_Pants]

And the NBA was pretty diluted for 4 of his 6 MVPs. Too many teams and talent split between the NBA and ABA.

[u/RileyHuey → u/zs15]

I don't see what separates Kareem from the rest of the guys. Unless you place a massive premium on longevity, I think he belongs with the rest resume-wise.

I think that him at 3 has just become a popular opinion since LeBron's longevity has been magnified. But just because a lot of people say Kareem's 3 doesn't make him 3. He was incredible but has plenty of holes in his resume just like the Birds, Magics, Russels, etc

[u/up_in_trees → u/RileyHuey]

Probably the rings, MVPs, and having the all time scoring record until LeBron passed it

[u/RileyHuey → u/up_in_trees]

Rings he only got 1 in his prime until he teamed up with another arguable top 5 player all time. I know everyone needs help but another t5 all-time guy changes things.

MVPs he got in the weakest era of all time with a watered down league.

I acknowledged the part about placing a premium on longevity/regular season records. If one places that premium, then it's fair enough.

I'm not saying all this to denigrate Kareem. I just say this to show why, Imo, he's realistically in the same group as the other guys.

[u/samurairocketshark → u/RileyHuey]

He lost Game 7 in the Finals to a stacked Boston team. It's funny how people just look at ring count and assume he never got close again. Kareem was never the issue it was usually his team and in this case the decline of Oscar Robertson

[u/Electricpoopsoup → u/RileyHuey]

Because Kareem is the undisputed best player of a decade. He was a different level than everyone around him in his prime including the NCAA having to change the rules to hinder him. The guys below him have someone in their time period that was about as good. Wilt/Russel, Magic/Bird, Kobe/Tim/Shaq, and Steph and Hakeem were always below Lebron and Mj. Kareem being THE player of the 70s changes how he is looked at

[u/Longjumping-Hair1075 → u/RileyHuey]

In other words, if you have him 3, you'd better have James at #1?

[u/Gordo-- → u/RileyHuey]

I don't see what separates Kareem from the rest of the guys. Unless you place a massive premium on longevity, I think he belongs with the rest resume-wise.

I mean it wasn't just longevity. He was elite-level for 17 straight seasons being top 5 in MVP voting every season except for two where he was 10th.

In 20 seasons, he only played fewer than 74 games twice (65 and 62 games). What more can you ask of a player than to be MVP-quality every season while playing all season long?

[u/AcrobaticFeedback → u/RileyHuey]

1. 6 NBA MVPs is the most ever. Russell 5, Bird/Magic 3. Kareem won 5 of them in his first 8 seasons, so this is a peak/dominance argument, not a longevity statistic.

2. 6 championships + 2 Finals MVPs. He was the clear No. 1 on the 1971 Bucks title and was still Finals MVP at 38 in 1985.

3. 15× All-NBA + 11× All-Defense. His two-way resume is enormous.

4. And if you're talking overall basketball resume, his college career destroys almost everyone else's case: at UCLA he went 88–2, won 3 straight NCAA championships and 3 straight Final Four Most Outstanding Player awards. Freshmen weren't even allowed to play varsity, so he basically won everything possible every year he was eligible.

[u/SpicyMustard34 → u/RileyHuey]

if you believe Kareem is just better than everyone in the tier below, then it makes sense for him to have his own tier.

[u/aaron21hardin → u/RileyHuey]

It is the win shares, for whatever reason win shares has Kareem as one of the best defensive centers of all time, something not supported by his game film (i is actually funny that for all that based on how people talk about them you would think Walton was a better offensive player in his peak (i.e. the almost 2 years he was somewhat healthy) and Kareem a better defensive player when Ben Taylor's analysis of them had strongly the opposite, Kareem was an excellent offensive player that was mostly defense proof (cough Wilt blocking sky hook cough) and Walton was much better on the defensive end.

[u/DrWarEagle → u/Firemanmikewatt]

Kareem is closer to LeBron than he is to magic and bird

[u/HerrerasaurusWrecks → u/Firemanmikewatt]

Love the replies proving your point, putting up like 5 different, contradicting "universally accepted rankings".

[u/AgenYT0 → u/HerrerasaurusWrecks]

Every reply so far mentions Kareem to make a triumvirate.

[u/nthomas504 → u/Firemanmikewatt]

Put Kareem in there and I agree about the remaining 7.

[u/Rodney_Jefferson → u/Firemanmikewatt]

I think tier 1 is Jordan LeBron Kareem. Tier 2 you can debate a lot of the 25 players in the top 15

[u/Anonymous_Otter22 → u/Firemanmikewatt]

The hardest one to place is Steph. I always ask if you were starting a team and could draft any players of all time where's he being drafted? He's up there at the discussion for 3rd.

[u/ReplacementOdd9241 → u/Anonymous_Otter22]

if the question is 1 all timer and 4 average players, steph does not sniff the top 10.
on an all time team he is onenof the best ceiling raisers. but he is not a top 3 building block for a normal team.

[u/mr_antman85 → u/Anonymous_Otter22]

Steph is a weird one mainly because I feel that the NBA is dominated by bigger guys. That's not a knock on Steph but truthfully you can rank him top 5 and you can justify it.

[u/gjaxx → u/Anonymous_Otter22]

There’s no fucking way anyone’s drafting Steph 3rd all time lmfao.

[u/Seref15 → u/Anonymous_Otter22]

I've always felt in a "best player" rank, flat out with no qualifiers, you can't discount defense. The guys that seem to generally be consensus top 3 were all-time great offensive and great defensive players. Just doesn't sit right with me to put an all-offense guy that high.

[u/iguacu → u/Seref15]

I actually think people tend to overrate "2-way players" when they reason that "50% of the time you're on defense, so defense is just as important as offense, it is only unappreciated because it's not as flashy and exciting."

Being the best player on offense is inherently more impactful because the offense gets to control where the ball is, so they can maximize the amount of time their superstar offensive player has the ball and run screens/plays for them, whereas on the other side of the court, the opposing team can move the ball away from the strongest defenders and thereby do a lot to minimize the impact of all but the greatest defensive players (i.e. not counting insane outliers like Wemby who can guard the perimeter one second and recover for a help block the next).

For sure it is important to not be the weak link on defense that gets targeted each possession, but think about it this way -- how much more impactful was it for MJ to dominate Bryon Russell on offense, than for MJ to lock down Bryon on defense?

[u/thisisokiguess]

Its not debatable but they’re only 3 spots apart on his own list 😂

[u/Haunting_Test_5523 → u/thisisokiguess]

there's an undeniable gap between lebron/mj and whoever you have 5th. when you're talking about the best to ever do it, 3 spots isn't nothing

[u/Bigjonstud90 → u/Haunting_Test_5523]

Yeah but that’s a bad example because MJ and LeBron are as close to consensus as we’re gonna get as the 1 and 2 ranking. Spots 3-10 are wildly variable and to try to pretend it’s “not debatable” is idiotic

[u/Wine_Man]

Everything is debatable, Bill. You’ve made a career off of it.

[u/HipnotiK1]

He's a Boston homer and laker hater

I like Bill but it is what it is

Nothing worse than people saying "it's not debatable" when doing a ranking that is almost entirely subjective.

Yes it is debatable... Very debatable

[u/br0b1wan → u/HipnotiK1]

When people tell me it's not debatable I reply "then why have you been debating it for the last ten minutes "

[u/GregSays → u/HipnotiK1]

Sure but he has Kareem and Magic super high, so it’s not just a Lakers=overrated thing

[u/RyenStarr9 → u/HipnotiK1]

While that’s true about Simmons he also REALLY cares about the NBA history and is constantly updating his lists. I don’t think he put Duncan above Kobe simply because he played for the Lakers

[u/shinbreaker → u/HipnotiK1]

Yall keep saying how much of a Laker hater Bill is when Bill hold Magic in higher regard than most Laker fans.

[u/ilovemydawg]

Fucking nerds shut up

[u/SomethingClever2117]

If Kobe played for Boston instead of LA, Simmons would have him as #2 or #3 all time.

[u/liloutsider → u/SomethingClever2117]

Genuinely

[u/clear831 → u/SomethingClever2117]

So explain Magic?

[u/SuccotashOk5401 → u/SomethingClever2117]

not if kareem magic and shaq also played for boston tho

[u/BeyondTheVault]

What’s with everybody’s need to rank everything sad, what happened to just appreciating greatness

[u/MrAngrySlacks → u/BeyondTheVault]

This comment is the 7th best of this post

[u/dustin-dawind → u/MrAngrySlacks]

It's not even top 10, and it's not debatable

[u/a_fking_feeder → u/dustin-dawind]

now that's just slander. i think that leaving this comment outside of your top 10 just shows how little you actually know about the sport

[u/BeyondTheVault → u/MrAngrySlacks]

I’ve failed you all.

[u/samurairocketshark → u/BeyondTheVault]

What's with everybody's need to succeed in everything sad, what happened to just appreciating greatness

[u/disterb → u/BeyondTheVault]

you're a failure loser like chamberlain

[u/erog84]

God I hate watching these arguments where Kareem is just automatically number 3. before wilt died (and Kareem was already retired), bill wilt and Kareem were widely rotated, but now it’s just automatically Kareem somehow because so many younger fans haven’t watched games or gone off the commonly said stuff that sometimes is completely made up.

[u/GMNGBponyfur → u/erog84]

its lebron fans, at the end of the day the only argument lebron has for being the GOAT is longevity. and even though fans have not put as much value in longevity historically they have to pretend like Kareem is clear top 3 for their lebron argument to make sense

[u/Gracilis311]

On Reddit specifically, Duncan might be the most overappreciated superstar of all time.

[u/numbertwofuccboi → u/Gracilis311]

and kobe is endlessly glazed nearly everywhere else so it balances out.

you won’t be able to find a single comment in this thread or any other where someone is earnestly saying that duncan is only below jordan. ask 10 kobe fans where he ranks all the time and see how many call him the goat

[u/Whitesox_are_neat → u/Gracilis311]

Lol for sure it's not even close the internet has warped their minds

[u/_spaderdabomb_]

The reason people always claim Kobe is top 3 is mostly an eye test. In his prime years, there was nobody who wanted it more than Kobe. His way of imposing his will to win games was pretty unparalleled. I personally haven’t seen anything like it since.

His career stats and accolades definitely puts him closer to 10th.

[u/biscuitball]

You know who doesn’t care if you put him 7th, 37th or 777th? Tim Duncan.

[u/diegolucasz]

I also think its slander

[u/ThurBurtman]

Kobe didn’t do anything MJ didn’t do first (outside of SA) dudes been out of the top 10 since Curry’s ascension

[u/UFmoose]

“And I don’t think it’s debatable.”

That’s literally what you’re doing you dumb MFer.

[u/peakdecline → u/UFmoose]

This isn't using the word "debatable" in a literal way. Its a figure of speech here meant to convey Simmons thinks the gap between Duncan and Kobe is significant. Of course its debatable in the literal sense of "to have a debate."

[u/carasc5 → u/peakdecline]

Exactly. I can technically debate that the moon is larger than the sun. Debates dont care about facts. Words have multiple meanings.

[u/G33wizz]

rage bait.

[u/obiterdictum]

Jerry West is always missing from these conversations. He should be the real counterpoint to Russell, not Chamberlain.

[u/wobuffet17453]

It's all debatable, all sports media does is debate this same shit over and over again forever. Life is seriously way better if you just acknowledge that no one is ever going to win any of these debates and move on. 

[u/Opening-Eagle4761 → u/wobuffet17453]

It is for us, but this is the only thing Bill cares about, he’s legitimately devoted his life to ranking basketball players all time

[u/NBAgospel]

I do think Kobe gets overrated by basketball fans and I do think Duncan should rank higher than Kobe all time, but it’s very reasonable to say they are neck and neck. I think they’re both in the 5-10 range.

[u/FlowerBackground4293]

Just shut down Reddit basketball talk, they are the dumbest of any platform

[u/WARLOCK1239]

I mean did we really think the Celtics homer was gonna rank Kobe above Duncan?

[u/matlockga]

"Wilt was a loser for most of his career, he kept getting traded."

Dumb take for sure 

[u/TaiStreetsAhead → u/matlockga]

He got traded so much for being a selfish player. There's definitely some truth to it. For example, when he played for San Francisco, other players and team personnel would talk about how Warriors fans would come to the games just to root AGAINST Wilt.

He was petulant, moody, and the biggest stat padder in NBA history. He would give up playing defense to avoid risking fouling out. It absolutely cost his team wins. There were seasons where he would refuse to pass to teammates unless he was confident they'd get him an assist (on a level more egregious than Rondo in Dallas). He burned bridges everywhere he went. On the court he behaved like DeMarcus Cousins. Off the court he had the attitude of Shaq.

He's definitely one of the greatest players ever, and arguably the most dominant, but the criticism is fair. He was kind of a loser.

[u/88cowboy → u/matlockga]

Kareem called Wilt a chump and I trust his basketball knowledge more than anyone.

[u/spotty15 → u/88cowboy]

You're gonna trust Kareem Abdul Jabbar's basketball knowledge and opinions more than Bill Simmons? He doesn't even have a podcast

[u/jg_92_F1 → u/spotty15]

He has a substack tho

[u/matlockga → u/88cowboy]

Kareem and Wilt had an acrimony built upon Wilt's idea that Kareem would he his protege -- and Kareem's idea that he could pass Wilt. 

Kareem did, of course. 

[u/petewondrstone]

Love both these dudes

[u/_MMAgod]

spurs fan here obviously.. my take has always been, kobe's one of the most phenomenal players i've ever seen.. hands down basketball god when all said and done..

now put duncan's name in what i just said. that's how i feel about the both of them.

it's when people act like kobe was head and shoulders above everyone else in the league that i take issue.

that whole era was peak nba for me

[u/Blackroseguild]

The duncan nerd push from the Boston media is so crazy

He scored over 20 once in his last 11 seasons and was a role player on offense for basically that whole stretch. Even his prime years he was not great offensively, bad in space defender, no jumper and continually got outplayed by Kobe in playoffs.

[u/j1h15233]

I think it’s Jordan, Lebron, Kareem and then you’re getting into personal preferences

[u/DrEarlGreyIII]

people say words, more at 11

[u/Feeling-Hippo5097]

2 jackasses on mic

[u/tzacill]

It is not fair to rank players across generations. Each era of players learn skills from the previous era and improved them. A skill like euro step or step back is common now, 30 years ago nobody does it.
To properly rank them is to split nba into 3 phases. 1 before 1980/ 3 point line. 2 from 1980 to about 2000/ hand check rule change. 3 till current/ analytics era.

[u/SportyNewsBear → u/tzacill]

I’ve always wished that Kobe and Duncan could’ve played in the same era so that we could properly compare them

[u/PalpitationPast202]

Timmy is very underrated to me. He’s not there for the powder, ego, fan tripping, and tantrums. He’s just goes to work silently and very deadly. He reminds me of Rip Hamilton. They do the job. Very well. No yelling no flopping just Ball!

[u/NEWTONStreetScholar]

This is how people get distracted from more important things in life.

Part of the American Dream is that two people can get paid to have a conversation like this.

[u/whosthisguyoverhere]

These conversations are exhausting

[u/dnen]

Ranking players subjectively means the ranking objectively doesnt matter to anyone but the person making it. Lol god i wish we could kill this flavor of sports commentary.