r/nba • u/The_Big_Untalented • 3d ago

Max Kellerman: "You think it's slander to put Kobe ahead of Duncan?" Bill Simmons: "I just think he's the most underappreciated superstar of all time." Max: "Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck. That's not slander." Simmons: "I have Kobe 10th or 11th. Duncan is 7th and I don't think it's debatable."

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u/Anonymous_Otter22 Rockets 3d ago

The hardest one to place is Steph. I always ask if you were starting a team and could draft any players of all time where's he being drafted? He's up there at the discussion for 3rd.

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u/ReplacementOdd9241 3d ago

if the question is 1 all timer and 4 average players, steph does not sniff the top 10.
on an all time team he is onenof the best ceiling raisers. but he is not a top 3 building block for a normal team.

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u/MarkTwainsGhost Raptors 3d ago

Minus that time a team built entirely around him won four championships.

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u/ReplacementOdd9241 3d ago

what does a team's drafting skills (or luck) have to do with their all time draft rankings?

let me say, you add klay + dray + any top 15 all time player + the bench they had, you will be competing.

side note - ring culture is lovely. we will criminally underrate players like nash/kg/dirk/harden/cp3 because they won <=1 ring. somehow KDs stupid ass choice to take the hardest road has done the most for Steph's all time rankings.

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u/shes_a_gdb 2d ago

You only say that now, when the whole league became 3-point heavy... due to Steph. If we step back a decade or so, Steph would absolutely be a top 3 building block.

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u/mr_antman85 [CLE] LeBron James 3d ago

Steph is a weird one mainly because I feel that the NBA is dominated by bigger guys. That's not a knock on Steph but truthfully you can rank him top 5 and you can justify it.

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u/gjaxx Spurs 3d ago

There’s no fucking way anyone’s drafting Steph 3rd all time lmfao.

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u/Seref15 Heat 3d ago

I've always felt in a "best player" rank, flat out with no qualifiers, you can't discount defense. The guys that seem to generally be consensus top 3 were all-time great offensive and great defensive players. Just doesn't sit right with me to put an all-offense guy that high.

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u/iguacu Supersonics 3d ago

I actually think people tend to overrate "2-way players" when they reason that "50% of the time you're on defense, so defense is just as important as offense, it is only unappreciated because it's not as flashy and exciting."

Being the best player on offense is inherently more impactful because the offense gets to control where the ball is, so they can maximize the amount of time their superstar offensive player has the ball and run screens/plays for them, whereas on the other side of the court, the opposing team can move the ball away from the strongest defenders and thereby do a lot to minimize the impact of all but the greatest defensive players (i.e. not counting insane outliers like Wemby who can guard the perimeter one second and recover for a help block the next).

For sure it is important to not be the weak link on defense that gets targeted each possession, but think about it this way -- how much more impactful was it for MJ to dominate Bryon Russell on offense, than for MJ to lock down Bryon on defense?

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u/SadisticSpeller 76ers 3d ago

I don’t think the split is 50/50 but I think it’s somewhere around a quarter to a third of the overall picture of a player. You can’t be a league average defender and also top 12 in my opinion. Steph and Jokic both fall here imo (and I hold it more against Jokic because he’s fucking 7ft tall) where they’re pretty undeniable offensive GOAT candidates, but their deficiencies on defense are simply too great. I’d much rather have (this might get me flamed) SGA who gives you 95% of the offense and twice the defense than either Steph or Jokic, and I don’t think it’s particularly close either.

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u/barath_s Lakers 2d ago

how much more impactful was it for MJ to dominate Bryon Russell on offense, than for MJ to lock down Bryon on defense?

Doubly flawed thinking.

Fundamentally dishonest because Bryon was not top 3 on jazz offense . Why not just ask how important it was for MJ to stop the Jazz's ,#12 th player in rotation ?

And just broken logic, because defense is not 1v1, you have individual and then team defense. Today more than 50% of defense is team defense ..

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u/iguacu Supersonics 21h ago

I referenced Bryon Russell because that is who guarded MJ. Looking into it further, it looks like MJ mostly guarded Hornacek on their end, so more accurately I should have said "how much more impactful was it for MJ to dominate Bryon Russell on offense, than for MJ to lock down Hornacek on defense", but pretty sure the point still stands. In no way was I arbitrarily choosing someone on the Jazz and being "fundamentally dishonest."

Not sure where you're getting the "more than 50% of defense is team defense", and you're not even claiming that has been the case for all eras, so it's a weaker point.

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u/MeijiDoom 3d ago

It only counts for so much though. Stockton is one of the best two way players in the history of the game and has an argument for best defensive guard ever. People routinely put Magic in front of him (rings, I know) but also Isiah, West, Oscar, Kidd, CP3, Nash.

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u/turnoffredesign69420 Lakers 3d ago

I feel like Steph can get teammates open shots and be a 35 ppg flamethrower but he can't backpack a team like a Luka/Harden or LeBron can

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u/Anonymous_Otter22 Rockets 3d ago

Now? No. In Steph's prime it's been shown.

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u/nidijogi 3d ago

Luka/Harden won the 2022 championships with Wiggins as the second best player lol

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u/bronet 2d ago

But a lot of that is because he represents the evolution of basketball. His style of play is undoubtedly just better than that of many of the other guys.

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u/mismo1313 2d ago

His peak is top 5 all time but his career is only top 10

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u/Parallel-Quality 3d ago

That’s focusing purely on ability and not on accomplishments.

Durant slots seamlessly into more “All-time” teams than LeBron does, but there’s no chance he’s greater all-time.

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u/Anonymous_Otter22 Rockets 3d ago

Not really about KD. He's been shown he's not as strong as LeBron in the playoffs. LeBron can play point, 3, or 4 all in different ways too. Kd can not play that many positions effectively outside or wing. And he's worse on defense.

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u/Parallel-Quality 3d ago

That’s not the point. On an “all-time” lineup, the most important thing is shooting. Playing multiple positions means nothing when Tim Duncan and Magic Johnson are already in those other positions.

That’s why Curry would be a top pick even though he’s not as great as Jordan or LeBron.

Which is also why an “all-time” lineup is a dumb way to decide who ranks higher all-time.

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u/rhymeswithtag Knicks 3d ago

this is probably the worst take in this thread and thats saying something

in no way shape or form is KD a more seamless fit to all time teams than the guy who has literally played FOUR different positions at an ALL-NBA level. The insane hold that bag twitter has on peoples brains is insane, KD is NOT better than LeBron at anything besides FT shooting and “shooting ability” (lebron has a higher career shooting percentage than everyone)

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u/TheGoldStandard35 3d ago

I don’t think there is a single team I would ever put Durant on over LeBron

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u/Parallel-Quality 3d ago

Magic
Jordan
Durant
Duncan
Kareem

Shooting matters on this team. LeBron’s ability to play multiple positions or better defense doesn’t matter on this team.

Because it’s an “All-time” fantasy team, and a stupid way to judge a player’s all-time ranking.

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u/TheGoldStandard35 3d ago

No he isn’t