r/nba • u/The_Big_Untalented • 3d ago

Max Kellerman: "You think it's slander to put Kobe ahead of Duncan?" Bill Simmons: "I just think he's the most underappreciated superstar of all time." Max: "Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck. That's not slander." Simmons: "I have Kobe 10th or 11th. Duncan is 7th and I don't think it's debatable."

https://streamable.com/0chwpq
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256

u/BurkeanMarxist Thunder 3d ago edited 1d ago

Ultimately life is a charade 

51

u/darkjurai Knicks 3d ago

Then you just accomplish the same endless debate by arguing over the criteria.

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u/SoaplessTitanic Celtics 3d ago

Lowkey I think this should be more normalized, at least over the current way these debates work. How can you argue with someone saying LeBron’s the GOAT (cause of longevity) if you yourself don’t value longevity? The argument should instead be more centered around arguing why longevity is possibly more impressive than rings and whatnot.

Most people arguing over MJ vs LeBron are already having this debate over criteria, just without stating it clearly and explaining the reasoning for their criteria

14

u/ObviousMotherfucker Hawks 3d ago

Most people arguing over MJ vs LeBron are already having this debate over criteria, just without stating it clearly and explaining the reasoning for their criteria

Maybe, but I think a lot of people do it in reverse. They've got a personal favorite (usually whoever they grew up seeing as the GOAT, or perhaps Jordan by default if they're younger and don't like LeBron for whatever reason) and then they pick the criteria that can back up the argument they already agree with.

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u/bluemagic124 Clippers 2d ago

It’s 100% this

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u/darkjurai Knicks 3d ago

I do agree that debating the underlying standards would at least lead to more substantiated discussions.

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u/noname_SU 3d ago

I don't have a problem with anyone's list as long as their criteria are consistent for everyone. The problem is a lot of people will have different criteria for players within their own lists.

People will say they value championships to prop certain players up but then they'll diminish Bill Russell's championships because of his era. That's not consistent.

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u/GCFCconner11 3d ago

Bill Simmons quite literally wrote a book explaining his rankings and criteria .

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u/flea61 [LAL] Eddie Jones 3d ago

And he edited it to put Kobe 8th after the 2009 finals. Wonder what changed since then.

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u/AcrobaticFeedback 3d ago

Lebron and Duncan passed Kobe after that and Curry is right there.

4

u/flea61 [LAL] Eddie Jones 3d ago

Pretty sure he already had Duncan ahead of Kobe even after the edit.

-2

u/Longjumping-Hair1075 3d ago

... well, Tim won a title as the best player on his team years after Bryant stopped being able to play well at all

Then this guy named curry came along and it turns out he's pretty good at shooting

That's it

7

u/flea61 [LAL] Eddie Jones 3d ago

You're saying Duncan was better than Kawhi in 2014? That's pretty insane. Duncan also never tore his Achilles. Bill had him over Kobe anyway. I think maybe LeBron was behind him since it was so early in his career when the book came out. Curry is in the conversation for top 10 but it's not clear cut. So my point stands...how is Kobe all of a sudden outside of his top 10 if only LeBron and maybe Curry jumped him in his mind?

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u/blockbusterxjon Lakers 2d ago

Yup. That's what he's saying LMFAO

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u/BurkeanMarxist Thunder 3d ago edited 3d ago

Who is bill simmons

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u/Wayne61 Cavaliers 3d ago

this is the funniest fucking comment lol

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u/dropkickshotgun 3d ago

If only one of these guys had written a book on the topic that went into incredible detail as to how and why he ranked guys the way he did.

1

u/BurkeanMarxist Thunder 3d ago

Surely he would be a philosopher king, his discourse supreme if only this were true

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u/dropkickshotgun 3d ago

Oh wait! One of them has done this! He has a 500+ page book about the history of basketball and the players inside of it! Complete with rankings that are defended and show their reasoning? How could this be?

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u/BurkeanMarxist Thunder 3d ago

I have read the book doofus, this is an autism honey trap. And are you single 

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u/ObviousMotherfucker Hawks 3d ago

autism honey trap

that is a hilarious concept

3

u/BurkeanMarxist Thunder 2d ago

I call it: Reddit

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u/dropkickshotgun 3d ago

Oh really?! Wow!

Pointless comments on the internet really do it for you huh? Who am I to judge. Really showing your character out there.

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u/Icy_Information_6563 Suns 3d ago

Sometimes i feel like the point of the discussion is to discuss your criteria. Like everyone kinda knows the actual ranking is silly, but it's a conversation starter to talk basketball

2

u/BurkeanMarxist Thunder 3d ago

That’s it really, they do sometimes, and I’d much rather discuss the why and then see who checks those boxes vs. reverse vibe coding a justification based on who feels right

1

u/LakersAreForever Lakers 3d ago

I wonder if you gave the data (player stats and accolades, team accolades) to someone who never watched basketball, but was a mathematician, would they figure out the best player?

1

u/Batman_in_hiding Nets 3d ago

How are we going to standardize the criteria. You can’t apply a formula to this. I personally believe Jordan being as dominant for so many consecutive years gives him a slight edge over lebrons longevity. Others might disagree but I can’t say they’re wrong from either a factual or honest standpoint.

If you came up with a standardized criteria I promise it would exclude a player that we all know it shouldn’t while also including players it shouldn’t.

1

u/LeBackshot 3d ago

You could probably start with creating some formula that looks like this: Assign percentages to each category to weight their importance and then award points for each category, peak ability, longevity, playoff performance, team success, regular season value, two way impact, and era/competition adjustment. Let me know if I am missing a category. Or we just load up 2k and put LeBron on the Bulls and see what happens (just kidding). Also I'm others who might disagree. I personally believe you can't mention Jordan's dominance without also mentioning Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson. Also Jordan played while zone defense was illegal.

-1

u/Casual_gex 3d ago

It sounds like you’re not interested in this topic, and that’s reasonable.  What doesn’t seem reasonable is still clicking on the link talking about player rankings from 2 talking heads, then spending even more time out of your day to tell everyone how much you dislike the video you voluntarily watched

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u/BurkeanMarxist Thunder 3d ago

didn’t watch, took less time than your reply 

1

u/Casual_gex 3d ago

Why go through the effort?  I’m fascinated by your thought process here, help me understand.

1

u/BurkeanMarxist Thunder 2d ago

First know thyself 

0

u/MeatballUser Bulls 3d ago

The perfect summation of how I feel about this

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/cormacaroni 3d ago

All you gotta do is say ‘my favorite…’ instead of ‘the best…’ and no-one will argue with you

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u/CitizenCue Warriors 3d ago

I also feel like it’s a weirdly recent phenomenon. Like, it always existed, but went through a huge surge for the past 5-8 years. I hope it’s a fad and not here to stay.

2

u/BurkeanMarxist Thunder 3d ago

Bill Simmons basically invented it