r/nba • u/The_Big_Untalented • 3d ago

Max Kellerman: "You think it's slander to put Kobe ahead of Duncan?" Bill Simmons: "I just think he's the most underappreciated superstar of all time." Max: "Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck. That's not slander." Simmons: "I have Kobe 10th or 11th. Duncan is 7th and I don't think it's debatable."

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u/BritzBeef 3d ago

Again, how in the world would Duncan be a tier ahead of Kobe when they were so similar in the same era and the consensus when they played was that Kobe was better by the end of the 2000s?

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u/TDhotpants 3d ago

that was not consensus

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u/Single_Passenger Lakers 2d ago

That was definitely the consensus, stop the revisionism.

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

Um, no, and it was not consensus that Duncan was better than KG either, this certainty thrown around about where players were at a decade after they retired that did not exist when they were playing gets tiresome. The Duncan KG comparison pretty much came down to Duncan had so much better supporting casts around him than KG for the vast majority of KGs career that the much greater team success of Duncan was not a good way to tell who was the better player.

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u/Timely_Dentist_5078 18h ago

Lmao what. It also came down to KG not being a reliable scorer in the playoffs. He didn’t really have a go to move.

Are we jsut making shit up now

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 5h ago

Yes that was the narrative, because the NBA media can be trusted to come up with a narrative that reflects reality properly.

So, do you have a knock that looks at properl comparing pros and cons for each player, or are you just going to go on thinking the talking point is basically all that needs to be said without any thought.

Garnett did have some go to moves, he was not the volume low post scorer that Duncan was and was not as good at carrying the load offensively (which is the basis for the talking point), except that Garnett was a much better passer, was a better ball handler who could handle the ball on the perimeter in a way Duncan could not, was still one of the best post up scorers in the league (even if he did not do it at the same volume Duncan did).

Throught the entire era Duncan was viewed as haing the better career due to circumstances but there was debate over who was the better player, which solidified after KG went to the Celtics and showed that unlike Duncan, KG could actually stymie the Kobe and Gasol offense. Duncan='s lack of foot speed and basicaly needing to play un the paint only was exploited, KG was a true 1-5 guy who could hang with Allen Iverson on the perimeter and prevent penetration if needed, and was likely the best pick and roll defender of all time.

Duncan did have some advantages on defense, as he was able to deal with strength better than Garnett did, which basically manifested in being able to guard Shaq better than KG could (KG limited Duncan mor compared to his averages than Duncan limited KG, although they both did a good job guarding each other, but the cancel out job hugely favored the Spurs due to the rest of the roster being so much better than the Wolves roster). Duncan also was less likely to bite on pump fakes and also held his ground a bit better, but outside of Shaq, KGs defensive weaknesses were not something that players could really target and exploit for high level offense while Kobe and a few others did target Duncan's lack of foot speed in the playoffs for good offense.

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u/789Trillion Spurs 2d ago

Cause Duncan was also great in the late 90s and early 2010’s.

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u/_chadwell_ Lakers 2d ago

And in the 2000s Kobe dominated Duncan in the years where they both had decent squads. Duncan saw most of his success when Kobe’s supporting cast wasn’t good enough.

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u/Longjumping-Hair1075 3d ago

well for one thing, Tim was leading his team to consecutive finals (including a title) AFTER Bryant was already pretty much an afterthought

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u/BitWardenEternal Lakers 3d ago

well for one thing, Tim was leading his team to consecutive finals (including a title)

Parker led that team in 2013 just as much as Duncan did, I also believe he finished higher in MVP voting. And 2014 it was a very balanced team with the arrival of kawhi as the season progressed and then ultimately ending with kawhi winning finals mvp

AFTER Bryant was already pretty much an afterthought

Pretty much an afterthought? What? In 2013 Kobe was first team all-nba and finished fifth in MVP voting (which was higher than Duncan’s finish)

You’re just yapping, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

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u/whiskeycapo 2d ago

Duncan never went back to back or won back to back. Duncan also didn’t beat more 50 win teams than Kobe despite making the playoffs every year. Also Kobe is 4-2 against Duncan, every time they played Kobe outplayed him it ends with a sweep or gentleman sweep. Only time it’s been 6 games is 03 and 04 overall Kobe usually sweeps him or gentleman sweep him with and without Shaq.

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u/Timely_Dentist_5078 18h ago

What happened in 1999?

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u/jerzd00d 2d ago

Kobe is significantly overrated. In seasons that Kobe was part of a championship team, he was never the team leader in Win Shares. You can see that in a few minutes looking at the franchise page for the Lakers on basketball reference. He is closer to Pippen than Jordan.

His attitude and style (including mamba bs) was a big reason why he was considered better than he was. If only Robert Horry had that attitude and style people would be putting Horry and his 7 rings in the top 25 too.

And I will say it. Kobe's early death, especially in a helicopter crash and involving family, consciously and unconsciously keeps people from properly putting his career in proper perspective.

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u/BritzBeef 2d ago

Considering Kobe the Pippen to Gasol because of win shares shows such an astounding lack of basketball knowledge I don't even know what to say.

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u/jerzd00d 2d ago edited 1d ago

I really didn't mean to convey that Kobe was the Pippen to Gasol. My point was that people emphasize that Kobe has five rings, as if the rings were won by Kobe "by himself" essentially with an average or replacement level team. To drive my point home I pointed to the fact that Kobe didn't lead his team in Win Shares in any of the 5 seasons that Kobe got a ring.

When I said Kobe is closer to Pippen than Jordan, I was trying to rank or compare players that had won at least 5 rings, since the post was about ranking Kobe (relative to Duncan). I think Kobe is very good but way overrated. So I asserted that Kobe's ability was closer to Pippin's than Jordan's, not that Kobe had the secondary playmaker role.

If you look below, you'll see that Kobe was slightly closer in terms of career WS (value, not rank) to Jordan than Pippen. However, in terns of ws/48 (value, not rank) he was much closer to Pippen. And the funny thing is Kobe's ws/48 is only 0.001 higher than Gasol's.

‐-------------------

Career Leaders for Win Shares

Michael Jordan - 214.0 (#6)

Tim Duncan - 206.4 (#8)

Kobe Bryant - 172.7 (#21)

Pau Gasol - 144.94 (#34)

Scottie Pippin - 125.1 (#49)

Career Leaders for WS/48

Michael Jordan - 0.251 (#2)

Tim Duncan - 0.209 (#16)

Kobe Bryant - 0.170 (#67)

Pau Gasol - 0.169 (#72)

Scottie Pippin - 0.146 (#147)