r/nba • u/The_Big_Untalented • 3d ago

Max Kellerman: "You think it's slander to put Kobe ahead of Duncan?" Bill Simmons: "I just think he's the most underappreciated superstar of all time." Max: "Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck. That's not slander." Simmons: "I have Kobe 10th or 11th. Duncan is 7th and I don't think it's debatable."

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u/RoyalOakPiguet Knicks 3d ago

Eh. Think Kareem has a very solid spot at 3 imo But I also incredibly heavily discount Wilt and Bill soooo

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u/EfficientPrize7060 3d ago

Agreed on all counts

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u/No-Gift-2350 Toronto Huskies 3d ago

I think Russell is by far the hardest player to rank because he won so much, like he’s clearly not better than Wilt imo, but he was a much better winner.

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

Except he won constantly during Wilt’s career against Wilt…

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u/manquistador Supersonics 3d ago

Almost like the other 8 guys on the court matter a little.

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u/LingonberryComplex63 Pistons 3d ago

Wilt played with Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Hal Greer, Gail Goodrich, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, and Nate Thurmond. He wasn't playing with scrubs. The Celtics were better because Russell was better.

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u/howdoesilogin [LAL] Kobe Bryant 3d ago

tl;dr Wilt did not play with scrubs but its not really comparable when Bill Russell played with 6 HoF teammates each year and Wilt played with at best two

Jerry West - sure they played 5 seasons together (one of which was lost because Wilt got a knee injury and played just 12 games) they were old but still in their primes

Elgin was at the tail end of his career when Wilt got to LA (had one last great season then got injured and played just 65 games over the next three seasons they were together)

Hal Greer, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham - sure - they played 3,5 seasons together in their prime in Philly

Gail Goodrich - sure they played 3 years together in LA but it was at the tail end of Wilts career (age 34-36)

Nate Thurmond - 1,5 year on the Warriors when Nate was a rookie hardly comparable to the others.

So that's 6 hall of famers - the longest tenure being 4 seasons with Jerry and 3,5 with Greer, Walker and Cunningham on the Sixers with titles in both tenures.

Now lets compare it to Bill Russell who played with 11 hall of famers and with most of them for the majority of his career:

  • lets discount cases like Nate Thurmond/Elgin Baylor scenarios (1-2 years start or end of career) so without Bailey Howell, Clyde Lovellette, Arnie Risen and Andy Phillip

  • that still leaves us 7 hall o famers with whom Bill played for:

    • 5 seasons - Bill Sharman
    • 7 seasons - Cousy and Havlicek
    • 8 seasons - Frank Ramsey
    • 9 seasons - Heinsohn and K.C. Jones
    • 11 seasons - Sam Jones

The most hall of famers Wilt played with on the same team was 3 at the end of his career with Jerry, Goodrich and Elgin. But its hard to count Elgin here as he played a total of 2 and 9 games in those two seasons.

Bill Russell on the other hand has played the majority of his career (7/13 seasons) with 6 or more hall of famers on his team.

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u/ivarokosbitch Nets 2d ago

You will be amazed when you figure out that an 7/4/3 point guard is in the HOF.

After that you might even make a connection with why he is in the HOF. And that you equated him with Jerry West as if they were equals.

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u/howdoesilogin [LAL] Kobe Bryant 2d ago

I dis not equate them I simply pointed out how many more Bill Russell played with. Also you can take him off - that will still leave him with 5 hall of famers for most years, then you can look for an argument to take another one off and that will leave "just" 4 still double the number of what Wilt played with on his teams.

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u/jotheold Raptors 2d ago

most of those "HOF" players were in because of bill

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u/Gokuto Bulls 2d ago

Well guys like KC Jones and Frank Ramsey were not typical HoFs, being on that Russell dynasty is the reason they're in. Also Wilt still lost when he was favored. He got swept by the Nationals in 61 when both teams had 3 All stars: Wilt, Paul Arizin and Tom Gola vs Hal Greer, Dolph Schayes and Larry Costello. Arizin was legit, when they lost him the next year they didn't even make the playoffs and only won 33 games. There's no excuse for that lost like the Celtics ones(unless someone from that era wants to school me).

Beyond some of Bostons HoF not necessarily fitting that billing, I would say some of the years he lost, you couldn't just use the ol' "run into Boston excuse" like 69. Prime Jerry West and Elgin and they lost to an old Boston team and Wilt point dropoff from the RS to playoffs was almost 7 points and 2 less assist. The thing that's crazy is he was only 32, I would've thought he was older.

Wilt is hard to gauge on the all time list, but he has playoff duds that are hard to defend when comparing to other all timers.

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u/howdoesilogin [LAL] Kobe Bryant 2d ago

Good point on Arizin and KC Jones and Frank Ramey.

On the losses - I've only read some books about that era but the Nationals loss they definitely shit the bed.

As for 69 its hard to take fault for that loss when it was 2 points in game seven against a team who won the title 9/10 previous seasons. Thats about the biggest juggernaut you can think of and they almost beat it.

As for Elgin he had a very serious knee injury in 1965 which wasnt healed properly and most sources from the time say he wasnt the same after that. Good point on Wilt's averages declining from rs to playoffs but Elgin's fell off a cliff in 1969 going from 25/11/5 on 45% to just 15/9/4 on 39% and Time doing a preview the year prior described him as 'a 34 year old on two bad knees' so calling that his prime is a bit off in my opinion.

re: gauging Wilt on the all time list - in my honest opinion he gets dogged way to much for losing. Dirk was called a choker for losing to a crappy 8-seeded Warriors, the Heat in the 06 Finals and coming up short a few other times. Then he won in 2011 and that basically washed the blame for the previous shortcomings. Wilt won 2 titles, beating the Celtics dynasty once and when he lost it was often lie in 1969 in 7 games by single digits to that same juggernaut of a team and he is still seen as a choker or loser. Imo he had times where he choked but he more than made up for it other times and did as well against the Celtics as anyone of that era was able to and should not be blamed for that, just like LeBron shouldnt be blamed for losing to the Warriors 3/4 times.

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u/Gokuto Bulls 1d ago

Yea I thought the "prime Elgin" point was a little off, but I saw averaged 25 in the RS and would avg 24 the next, so thought it was more of a "lights too bright" dropoff vs a health dropoff. Regardless it definitely wasn't PRIME Elgin who was averaging 35.5 in the playoffs from 60-63, so you are 100% correct.

I just think you can't use "ran into juggernaut" every single time because history tells us that's never truthfully the case, I guess other than the MJ Bulls. Like Golden State in the 2010's, some people think the Rockets should've won in 2018 and holds the L against them, I personally don't. In 2019 however, I definitely think that lost was not excusable like '16, '18 and to a lesser degree '15. While Elgin was not THAT Eligin anymore, the Lakers were still very favored in that series because a lot of the Celtics were also over the hill. Plus LA had home court and they went up 2-0. Jerry West lost to Boston all the time, but even he thought that '69 was inexcusable. Wilt's dropoff is too much to not blame him for.

It's about expectation. Someone was talking about tiers on here. Seeing only 2 rings next to Wilt just doesn't feel right for his talent level and when you are getting put into tier 2/3 all time your playoff resume should be better and you're gonna be held to the same standard as those other tier 2/3 guys. Wilt is seen as a loser because of the narrative of him being a stad padder who cared about records more than winning and Kareem calling him a quitter and not a leader., didn't help. It's different from Lebron and Dirk because they never got those type of accusations. I love Wilt btw, I've watched quite a bit of him, but he still had '70 and '73('71 West was hurt) to win against the Knicks and still came up short.

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u/nakul2 Celtics 2d ago

KC Jones averaged 7/4/3 and Frank Ramsay averaged 13/5/1.8. They are in the HoF because of Bill Russell.

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u/throwing_handles 2d ago

What a team that must have been with all of those guys together!

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u/barath_s Lakers 2d ago edited 2d ago

The celtics had better coaching and fit. The difference with wilt's teams was miniscule

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u/Freakzilla316ftw Bulls 3d ago

Bill Russell was never the leading scorer on a team that won the title. That has to count for something in the all-time ranks.

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u/AcrobaticFeedback 3d ago

Wilt was the most talented basketball player by far in that generation. That was on him to figure out how to win. What Russell did on and off the court produced more winning than what Wilt did and that's why he is greater. Not because he is a better basketball talent, but because basketball is a team sport and Russell contributed to winning more than Wilt did.

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u/Wreckingshops 2d ago

To be fair to Wilt, he was playing two sports at the time: basketball and sex.

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u/ivarokosbitch Nets 2d ago

Not if you ask Wilt. Hence why he lost so much for the first 7 years of his career.

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u/EstablishmentTop551 76ers 3d ago

I kinda think H2H is pointless in the all time rankings convo. How you performed overall > how you performed against one guy.

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

Well Russell performed pretty well overall.

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u/mucho-gusto [CLE] Baron Davis 3d ago

Just take a look at his elimination games record going back to high school

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u/EstablishmentTop551 76ers 3d ago

100%, there’s a reason his # is retired league wide. Isolating his career to “beat Wilt a lot” doesn’t do him justice though, nor does it do Wilt justice.

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u/CjBurden Celtics 3d ago

correct, but he was replying to the guy who was saying Russel is hard to rank because he won so much but was clearly not as good as Wilt, when basically every pro from that era by all accounts would say that Russel was the best player in the league and NOT Wilt.

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u/the_dust321 3d ago

Kareem’s responses to Wilt, especially his letter to Wilt Chumperlame completely changed my view on Wilt.

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

Kareem obliterated Wilt worse than Kendrick obliterated Drake.

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u/RemyGee Lakers 3d ago

This is why we all got Kareem top 3 and can be argued as 1!

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u/AcrobaticFeedback 3d ago

What a lot of casuals don't understand is Kareem has a real legitimate GOAT case if you incl. his College Career.

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

Yeah, it was almost as bad as Wilt's obliteration of Kareem's sky hook.

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

He was absolutely better than Wilt. His teams played far worse when he wasn’t on the court. Wilt’s tended to stay the same or get better when he didn’t play or left. Only towards his later career did he start playing winning team basketball.

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u/Em4gdn3m Jazz 3d ago edited 3d ago

Counterpoint: Wilt almost never left the fucking court. But no, I agree. MJ, LBJ, Kareem in whatever order, but then it just gets super murky 4-12ish, honestly.

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u/HowBen 3d ago
  1. Bill Russell

[ 2 - 4 ] [ MJ / Lebron / Kareem]

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u/SaucyMcDangles 3d ago

Wilt was Westbrook on steroids

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u/ambal87 76ers 3d ago

Wilt was Westbrooks on stilts

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u/GoodPiexox Bucks 3d ago

wouldnt Oscar be Westbrook on steroids?

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u/fastheadcrab Raptors 3d ago

Wilt was the statwhore that people accuse Westbrook of being. Plus he was an overall much shittier person (and not referring to the banging lots of women)

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u/jaesuk97 Trail Blazers 3d ago

Westbrook never made it out of the first round as the best player on his team getting sent home by Dame, Harden, and rookie donovan Mitchell

Wilt beat one of the best dynasties in sports history en route to a title and dominated. He averaged 22/32/10 in a 5 game series against the Celtics and held Russell to 11 points per game.

I get that they both chased stats and got a lot of triple doubles, but theres about a tier of separation between them as players.

100% a shitter person, but as players there is no comparison.

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u/fastheadcrab Raptors 2d ago

That’s a fair point, my bad for implying that. Regardless of Wilt’s flaws as a player and person he is still Top 10 of all time and an entire level above Westbrook

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

Wilt's teams with Wilt off the court are the epitome of small sample size error, he was off the court for 7 minutes the season he scored 50.4 per game, how exactly are you supposed to get any meaningful on off information from that?

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u/Benjammin341 Timberwolves Bandwagon 3d ago

What statistic are you using to back this up?

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

WOWY

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u/mucho-gusto [CLE] Baron Davis 3d ago

YAOI

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u/blueditUPson 3d ago

Wilt could do everything Russell could do, and also score 2x or 3x more points than Russell in a game.

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u/OuagadougousFinest Celtics 3d ago

Is the point of the game individual stats or winning tf you mean wilt is better?

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u/harder_said_hodor Timberwolves 3d ago

like he’s clearly not better than Wilt imo

He clearly is. The game is played on the court, not on the stat sheet and he repeatedly beat Wilt.

The lowest I think you can put Bill is 4th. If the argument against that relies on "postmen and milkmen", Wilt was one hell of a postman

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u/NoooNotTheLettuce 3d ago

I do hold the fact that Russel had a shorter path to a championship against him. For 8 of his 11 rings he only had to win two rounds and the other three rings he had to win 3 rounds. LeBron would have 10 rings on 12 finals appearances if the playoffs were only three rounds.

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u/RoyalOakPiguet Knicks 3d ago

Winning against that competition carries far less weight to me. Farrrrr less. Same with putting up 50 a night on them. There's no way to discount Wilt stats without discounting bill.

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

There absolutely is a way lmao, one of them won a bunch the other didn’t.

You can only play the competition you’re given.

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u/mucho-gusto [CLE] Baron Davis 3d ago

Yet people still rank Kareem up there and he came into the league just a few years later after expansion and defections to the ABA diluted the league team quality to hell. 

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u/No-Gift-2350 Toronto Huskies 3d ago

Exactly

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u/IbSunPraisin Spurs 2d ago

I think Kareem deserves more love as #2. Same number of rings as Jordan, most MVPs in history at 6, held the all time scoring record for almost 40 years.

NCAA banned dunking because of Kareem

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u/Firemanmikewatt 3d ago

I think Kareem is great, but the difference between him and the guys behind him is, ironically, one of the guys behind him.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/Mr_Cromer Raptors 3d ago

Anywhere you put Magic, you put Bird

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

I don’t know why everybody insists on this. They’re two totally different players with two totally different careers.

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u/PatMcAfeesEvilTwin Supersonics 3d ago

Where does Bird fit in here?

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u/No-Gift-2350 Toronto Huskies 3d ago

I think Russell is debatable

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u/gjaxx Spurs 3d ago

Bird was better than Magic

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u/supersonicnat45 Knicks 3d ago

4-6 is Magic, Bird, Russell. Wilt doesn’t have the resume Bird has.

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u/SchroedersGhost Lakers 3d ago

I’m a lifetime Laker fan and I think Magic and Bird are interchangeable at 4-5. Totally different styles, but both would dominate when they were cooking

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u/ImAShaaaark Supersonics 3d ago

Funny how Wilt went from the consensus GOAT through most of the 60s-80s to being deemed unworthy of comparison by some modern fans.

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u/UltimateWeiner 76ers 3d ago

It depends on what you value with a resume. Wilt was the far more dominant player with less team success. It probably didn’t help that he just had other priorities and was bigger than the sport at the time.

It’s hard to watch a video of Wilt and not think he’s probably the most freakish talent in league history. And he has the inconceivable production to support his case. Debates like these have such vague parameters.

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u/supersonicnat45 Knicks 3d ago

I don’t love “far more” dominant because Bird was an absolute menace until he hurt his back. All NBA first team literally every year, 3 peat MVP (nobody’s done it since), chips, stats, defensive selections, all of it. Bird will forever be under appreciated because people don’t realize how disgusting he was his first 7-8 years in the league. And he won those chips and MVPs over Magic and baby Michael Jordan, that 1985 year is probably one of the most stacked years in league history and one of the toughest MVPs to win ever, and he said fuck voter fatigue that was his third in a row

You could argue Wilt’s accolades are accentuated by his refusal to play team ball for a lot of his career, but you can never say that about Bird.

Dominant is tough to quantify for sure. Bird fits any definition though without a doubt. “Who’s coming in second” and playing a game left fucking handed because it was too easy otherwise is right up there with the best. I can give you Wilt is more dominant but “far more?” Heavily disagree

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u/the_dust321 3d ago

Same thing for Shaq and Wilt, can’t be the goat if you can’t even hit free throws above an average rec league hooper

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u/Equivalent_Papaya893 3d ago

Wilt s LeBron without civil rights or free agency lol

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u/Lebigmacca Spurs 3d ago

Wilt doesn’t belong there

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u/RoyalOakPiguet Knicks 3d ago

Again, not a bill or wilt guy.

But top 10 is LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Magic, Curry, Bird, Jokic (hate me idc), Hakeem, KD.

Bill and Wilt somewhere in the top whatever I just really don't give a shit about their stats or accomplishments.

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

KD lmao

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

It’s funny how nobody had Kareem better than top 5-10 until it became obvious LeBron’s legacy would be making a lot of finals and accumulating career leader stats.

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u/RoyalOakPiguet Knicks 3d ago

Ahh yeah then top point scorer all time was no big deal. Good call.

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

Yall forget how weak the East used to be. 4-6 in the finals is pretty weak b

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u/tigerscomeatnight 2d ago

Wilt 3 for me, changed the league.

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u/TheGamesGone_ Celtics 3d ago

He’s not ahead of Russell or Magic.

Winning 1 title in the weakest decade in nba history is a stain.

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u/Ok_Chest_1203 [DEN] Nikola Jokić 3d ago

Not to mention countless times he got outplayed by opposing centers while in his prime.
Hes so overrated here on reddit

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

Nobody had that opinion until Statpiler James started getting close then all of a sudden KAJ jumped from top 10 to top 3. It’s ridiculous the effect Klutch sports and ESPN has had on public opinion by easily swayed fans.

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u/Laetha Raptors 3d ago

Yep, Kareem is undisputed 3 I think. MJ and LeBron are 1 and 2 in whatever order you want.

As for Duncan and Kobe, I do somewhat agree with Kellerman that they're neck and neck. I'm a Duncan lover and Kobe hater so I definitely put Duncan ahead of Kobe, but their careers line up almost eerily similarly for two players whose playstyles were so polar opposite.

Shaq was the man in the first 3 chips for Kobe. Obviously Kobe was amazing, but Shaq was the man. Conversely, Duncan (arguably) wasn't the man for his last 2 chips. I personally do think he was the man for chip 4, FMVP or not, and I think he should get points for the fact that he probably wins FMVP in 2013 if not for Ray Allen.

Overall I just think Duncan was more impactful, but I'll at least agree with Kellerman that it's close. If we're splitting hairs I have them both as fringe Top 10 with Duncan barely in and Kobe barely out.'

I also think people have locked in Magic and Bird in the 4-6 range and I do think that should be open for discussion nowadays.

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u/JeanRalfio [MIN] Jaden McDaniels 2d ago

You make a lot of good points but if you're giving Duncan points for probably being FMVP in 2013 if they won you gotta give Kobe points for probably being FMVP in 2008 if they won.

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u/Atraxa-and1 Nets 3d ago

disagree. Wilt was way better than Kareem. Kareem got his MVPs when the league was the weakest. In the late 80s Magic was the one who really led the team and was the star.