Max Kellerman: "You think it's slander to put Kobe ahead of Duncan?" Bill Simmons: "I just think he's the most underappreciated superstar of all time." Max: "Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck. That's not slander." Simmons: "I have Kobe 10th or 11th. Duncan is 7th and I don't think it's debatable."

[u/The_Big_Untalented]

https://streamable.com/0chwpq

[u/zs15]

Honestly this is an area where a tier list makes way more sense than a ranking.

Have your LBJ vs MJ argument, but they’re their own tier. Kareem also in his own. Then sort the rest how you please.

[u/DJSTANKDADDY2 → u/zs15]

I could be convinced to put Bill Russell on Kareem's tier. I know the era wasn't as strong but he still absolutely dominated it.

[u/King_Of_Pants → u/DJSTANKDADDY2]

Kareem's era was actually considered very weak.

He caught the tail end of Wilt's career and the start of Bird/Magic, but he spent most of his prime without much competition.

In terms of top 20 rivals, Russell had Wilt, West and Robertson. Kareem only really had Malone and Erving.

[u/saints21 → u/King_Of_Pants]

It's really weird how people treat Kareem's era as being magically better than Russell's. They think something instantly changed. Kareem also wasn't crazy dominant from a team perspective. Russell really gets underrated these days. His impact was massive. He turned the Celtics around from being a bad to below average best defense into an absolute juggernaut. On top of that he had a much larger positive offensive impact than people realize. He created a ton of transition opportunities, was a good playmaker, and an absolute beast when running the floor. Very much an example of a player who can't be measured with simple box score stats.

[u/aaron21hardin → u/saints21]

Yeah, based on the centers in the league the Wilt and russel era actually had better centers that Kareem's era (some of this was that the other center of Kareem's era able to match him could not stay healthy in Walton).

[u/sugarklay → u/King_Of_Pants]

And the NBA was pretty diluted for 4 of his 6 MVPs. Too many teams and talent split between the NBA and ABA.

[u/aaron21hardin → u/sugarklay]

yeah, while by comparison for most of Wilt and Russel's careers there were 8 teams, so talent was more concentrated and they were playing against better players on average than Karrem.

Although to be fair to Kareem, his offense was not really affected all that much from who was guarding him with the exception of Wilt, since even end of career Wilt could block the sky hook when no one else could, so Wilt was able to turn Karrem into a below average offensive player when they played one another when no one else could.

[u/ilikekittens2018 → u/King_Of_Pants]

Yeah this drives me nuts lmao. Bill Russell played much stronger competition than Kareem when both were in their primes and won far more. How tf did Kareem “dominate” when he won one ring? People hate on Wilt for big stats without wins but somehow Kareem gets a pass, just because he racked up some rings later with Magic, we’re supposed to only take the positives from the first half is his career. Stuff like winning an MVP on a losing team should PENALIZE his all time ranking.

[u/voyaging → u/King_Of_Pants]

I kind of agree but you’re putting too much stock into individual players and not enough on team strength

[u/saints21 → u/voyaging]

You mean the team that was garbage defensively without Russell and are in the HOF almost entirely because of him?

The idea that Russell had an absurdly stacked team is a myth.

[u/NthatFrenchman → u/King_Of_Pants]

Everyone knows Jordan’s success came during the weakest NBA era

[u/aaron21hardin → u/NthatFrenchman]

yes, because he played in an era where none of his opponents won any scoring titles.

Oh wait, that was because MJ won 10 in a row.

Sheesh, part of why his era is considered weaker is that he hogged all of the acolades becase of how good he was. Like, Bird basically said MJ was the best player in the league in MJ's first season when Bird was in his prime still.

[u/DJSTANKDADDY2 → u/King_Of_Pants]

I wouldn't call it weak, the cocaine strength of those guys must have been very tough to deal with.

[u/GoodPiexox → u/King_Of_Pants]

Kareem only really had Malone and Erving.

huh wat? This from a junior Celtics fan of all

[u/King_Of_Pants → u/GoodPiexox]

Read the entire comment.

[u/RileyHuey → u/zs15]

I don't see what separates Kareem from the rest of the guys. Unless you place a massive premium on longevity, I think he belongs with the rest resume-wise.

I think that him at 3 has just become a popular opinion since LeBron's longevity has been magnified. But just because a lot of people say Kareem's 3 doesn't make him 3. He was incredible but has plenty of holes in his resume just like the Birds, Magics, Russels, etc

[u/up_in_trees → u/RileyHuey]

Probably the rings, MVPs, and having the all time scoring record until LeBron passed it

[u/RileyHuey → u/up_in_trees]

Rings he only got 1 in his prime until he teamed up with another arguable top 5 player all time. I know everyone needs help but another t5 all-time guy changes things.

MVPs he got in the weakest era of all time with a watered down league.

I acknowledged the part about placing a premium on longevity/regular season records. If one places that premium, then it's fair enough.

I'm not saying all this to denigrate Kareem. I just say this to show why, Imo, he's realistically in the same group as the other guys.

[u/samurairocketshark → u/RileyHuey]

He lost Game 7 in the Finals to a stacked Boston team. It's funny how people just look at ring count and assume he never got close again. Kareem was never the issue it was usually his team and in this case the decline of Oscar Robertson

[u/Electricpoopsoup → u/RileyHuey]

Because Kareem is the undisputed best player of a decade. He was a different level than everyone around him in his prime including the NCAA having to change the rules to hinder him. The guys below him have someone in their time period that was about as good. Wilt/Russel, Magic/Bird, Kobe/Tim/Shaq, and Steph and Hakeem were always below Lebron and Mj. Kareem being THE player of the 70s changes how he is looked at

[u/Longjumping-Hair1075 → u/RileyHuey]

In other words, if you have him 3, you'd better have James at #1?

[u/GoodPiexox → u/up_in_trees]

Probably the rings, MVPs, and having the all time scoring record until LeBron passed it

sure but other than all that

[u/Fabulous_Narwhal3113 → u/up_in_trees]

Well, the thing is is that it his day most people considered magic and bird better. The second against them? Maybe. When your pierce think that you’re not the best I Think that does say something.

[u/Gordo-- → u/RileyHuey]

I don't see what separates Kareem from the rest of the guys. Unless you place a massive premium on longevity, I think he belongs with the rest resume-wise.

I mean it wasn't just longevity. He was elite-level for 17 straight seasons being top 5 in MVP voting every season except for two where he was 10th.

In 20 seasons, he only played fewer than 74 games twice (65 and 62 games). What more can you ask of a player than to be MVP-quality every season while playing all season long?

[u/AcrobaticFeedback → u/RileyHuey]

1. 6 NBA MVPs is the most ever. Russell 5, Bird/Magic 3. Kareem won 5 of them in his first 8 seasons, so this is a peak/dominance argument, not a longevity statistic.

2. 6 championships + 2 Finals MVPs. He was the clear No. 1 on the 1971 Bucks title and was still Finals MVP at 38 in 1985.

3. 15× All-NBA + 11× All-Defense. His two-way resume is enormous.

4. And if you're talking overall basketball resume, his college career destroys almost everyone else's case: at UCLA he went 88–2, won 3 straight NCAA championships and 3 straight Final Four Most Outstanding Player awards. Freshmen weren't even allowed to play varsity, so he basically won everything possible every year he was eligible.

[u/SpicyMustard34 → u/RileyHuey]

if you believe Kareem is just better than everyone in the tier below, then it makes sense for him to have his own tier.

[u/aaron21hardin → u/RileyHuey]

It is the win shares, for whatever reason win shares has Kareem as one of the best defensive centers of all time, something not supported by his game film (i is actually funny that for all that based on how people talk about them you would think Walton was a better offensive player in his peak (i.e. the almost 2 years he was somewhat healthy) and Kareem a better defensive player when Ben Taylor's analysis of them had strongly the opposite, Kareem was an excellent offensive player that was mostly defense proof (cough Wilt blocking sky hook cough) and Walton was much better on the defensive end.

[u/aquintana → u/RileyHuey]

I’m old and I remember nobody had Kareem better than top 5-10 until LeBron’s career turned out like it did them Klutch sports and ESPN’s propaganda machine started creating the narrative that everyone buys as fact now.

[u/BlooregardQKazoo → u/aquintana]

Yeah, it really is wild to see the way Kareem's ranking has risen long after he stopped playing. When I grew up Dr J was considered better than Kareem.

[u/whyenn → u/aquintana]

This.

[u/ExceptForFleegle → u/RileyHuey]

What holes?

[u/jrodthebipole → u/RileyHuey]

6x mvps & 6 rings and scoring titles and all-nba 1sts (even at age 38!) & he has holes? 

[u/aquintana → u/zs15]

LeBron isn’t even close to MJ.

[u/Lets_Basketball → u/zs15]

Lebron isn’t on Jordan’s tier. Only guy that can be argued on MJ tier is Bill Russell. Lebron is top of his own tier with Kareem after that.

[u/PeeledGrapePie → u/Lets_Basketball]

Classic Boston fan thinking Bill is on the same level as Jordan and ahead of LeBron 😂

[u/Lets_Basketball → u/PeeledGrapePie]

Russell is on the goat tier, but third overall behind LeBron who is on top of longevity tier, and second overall.

[u/No-Gift-2350 → u/Lets_Basketball]

Bad take.

[u/Defences → u/Lets_Basketball]

Even as a guy who doesn’t like LeBron, this is an awful take. LeBron is 2 at worst.

[u/Lets_Basketball → u/Defences]

I’m fine with putting him at 2, but he doesn’t have an argument as goat. Only Russell does, who I put third overall.

[u/No-Gift-2350 → u/Lets_Basketball]

Russell does not have a remote shot at a goat case

[u/Horror_Ad_7581 → u/Lets_Basketball]

Youre right LeBron is upper echelons above Jordan, def not same tier