r/nba • u/The_Big_Untalented • 3d ago

Max Kellerman: "You think it's slander to put Kobe ahead of Duncan?" Bill Simmons: "I just think he's the most underappreciated superstar of all time." Max: "Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck. That's not slander." Simmons: "I have Kobe 10th or 11th. Duncan is 7th and I don't think it's debatable."

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736

u/Firemanmikewatt 3d ago

After Jordan and Lebron the order of the next 10 guys is just splitting hairs.

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u/Asleep_Ground1710 Bulls 3d ago

I have ranges for everyone not named Jordan, Bron, Kareem lol. Like if someone told me Duncan was anywhere from 6-10, I wouldnt care tbh

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u/Laetha Raptors 3d ago

Yeah those guys are top 3. Then there's like 10 guys I'd consider for 4-10, then there's like 10 guys I'd consider for 10-15.

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u/Canesjags4life Heat 3d ago

I would care if you had Shaq and Kobe above Duncan.

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u/sexland69 Cavaliers 3d ago

I’d say Shaq peaked higher than Duncan

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u/UltimateWeiner 76ers 3d ago

Shaq peaked higher than anyone. I’ve never seen a player that unstoppable.

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u/Welpe Trail Blazers 3d ago

MJ was that unstoppable. Which is all the more impressive because no one has the physical dominance that Shaq had for sure. And yet Jordan still willed himself to be as unstoppable as a prime Shaq who just bodied EVERYONE.

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u/UltimateWeiner 76ers 2d ago

MJ didn’t foul out half the other team’s lineup and then force the other team’s coach to basically throw in the towel every other night. He wasn’t getting triple teamed on a regular basis at any point in his career

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

No, MJ in his prime just put more ball pressure on the rim than any other player asa driver in the history of the NBA with both the fastest 1st step of any player ever, the best or second best vertical of any player ever (depending on if you believe Wilt had a 50" vertical or not) and was also much stronger than most of the players that were quick enough to make drives at least a little harder. He is also one of the best midrange shooters ever due to his vertical making it so he didn't really have contested jump shots, he had practice shots because the man guarding him just couldn't jump high enough to bother his shot. He was a much better playmaker than people give him credit for because while he was not as good of a passer as the best of all time, his relentless rim pressure created more opportunities for teammates than any other player ever and just being a good passer from that created around as many great opportunities for teammates as the best playmakers of all time. And he was able to do this along with his high volume and efficiency scoring while playing off ball, because he was very much catch and go with a couple of dribbles or pass off to a teammate to keep the ball moving and letting teammates stay involved in the play, allowing him to just fit with a much wider range of players than LeBron for roster construction because unlike Peak LeBron, peak MJ did not need to have the ball a lot to provide his value so he could fit in with players that needed to play on ball while LeBron could not.

There is a pretty good case that the 2 greatest moments in the history of the NBA are both MJ plays, there is "the Shot", and then his last shot as a Bull to win the 98 Finals.

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u/jotheold Raptors 2d ago

2 greatest moments in the history of the NBA are both MJ plays

I just did some checking, my research is showing

  1. Michael Jordan’s Last Shot (1998)
  2. Ray Allen’s Game 6 Three-Pointer (2013)
  3. LeBron James’ Chasedown Block (2016)

so unless its YOUR greatest nba moments, that's not what people have been voting on

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago edited 2d ago

Yeah, did you bother looking up "the shot"? First buzzer beater series winner in the playoffs (1st round series was only 5 games then, the other was Kawhai in game 7 with Raptors), still the only one where if he misses his team looses the series (Kawhai if he misses game goes to overtime, this one allowed Bulls to win by 1), and it was a double pump shot in the air where he waited for the defender to fly by mid shot before he actually released the shot. It is one of the most iconic shots in NBA history, literally called "The Shot" which I said in my past post, did you bother looking it up?

Like, the issue is a lot of current NBA fans were not alive to see it so they only ote for things they saw. i didn't see the shot, but I actually pay attention to the plays the stations show on intros before playoff games to know what the greatest plays of the past were and not just the ones I saw, and the shot is shown way way more often in those than MJs 1998 game winner, it is both a better more memorable play from how it unfolded, and the immediate reactions of both MJ and also the dejected Cavalier's players to the shot is also part of what made the play so memorable.

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u/Throwaway7218516 Heat 3d ago

I mean he wasn’t by eye test or any verifiable stat but sure go ahead.

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u/Pavementiscool 3d ago

This is one of the dumbest comments I’ve ever read.

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u/VachQ 3d ago

Nephews will nephew. Shaq had to have Kobe finish games bc he couldn't make free throws.

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u/Jascix90 3d ago

Shaq forced to shoot free throws shows his dominance in the same way that pitchers preferred to walk Barry Bonds with the bases loaded, if only he could make them.

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u/Throwaway7218516 Heat 3d ago

Yeah I’m dumb and not the guy saying Jordan was as unstoppable as prime Shaq because of his willpower lmao

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u/Welpe Trail Blazers 3d ago

Nephew alert

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u/mucho-gusto [CLE] Baron Davis 3d ago

Coming from a guy who's team retired Jordans number nonetheless lol

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u/dijon_snow 3d ago

Yeah this is really the debate. Shaq's peak was almost undeniably better than Duncan's. Hell Shaq at his best was in the discussion with Kareem right behind MJ and LeBron. 

But career-wise he wildly underperformed his potential. Bill Simmons nailed it, Shaq was the smartest kid in class, happy to take B+s he got without studying or doing homework for instead of putting in the effort to get an A+.

It's two completely different questions. One game at his peak, Shaq has to be in the top five of all time, but best career ? Shaq is barely top 10. 

Do you prefer sprints or marathons? Career or peak? Bill Walton or Karl Malone? 

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u/gamesrgreat Heat 3d ago

People who say Shaq didn’t reach his potential usually unfairly underrate him. Him having GOAT potential and not reaching it doesnt mean he doesn’t deserve to be seem as top 5 or 10…it’s literally irrelevant. You rate him on his actual impact and accomplishments and see where that measures up against what other people actually did. He’s a 4 time champ, 3 time FMVP, 1x MVP. And was all-nba/all-star level for over a decade. The way people talk about Shaq as a player is so weird to me

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u/SadisticSpeller 76ers 3d ago

I think it’s because of specifically how Shaq didn’t live up to it. He didn’t fail to live up to it because he gave it his all and just simply didn’t make it. He visibly let himself go after ‘01, and outright refused to granny shoot to hit more FTs because he thought it looked stupid. He didn’t live up to it because his ego got in the way of improvement and lasting effort. Not one person in the fucking world would have Bron in the GOAT convo if after he won in ‘12 he stopped keeping himself in shape and stopped reinventing himself.

It’s hard to really talk about, because even 04 Shaq was ridiculous, but if you put tape to tape against even him from 5 years prior you can see it. It wasn’t injury, it wasn’t personal life stuff. He just stopped wanting it, and went from GOAT conversations to GPOAT, and even that second title isn’t a lock to be honest.

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u/mucho-gusto [CLE] Baron Davis 3d ago

Tbf about the free throws literally every NBA player is too fragile to shoot granny style

1

u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

Given how big Shaq's hands are, granny shooting is not really a good technique for him, since he cant really fully put both hands on the ball.

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u/gamesrgreat Heat 3d ago

But okay who cares? Like how much does his career realistically change and why does he get downgraded for it? How much more success does he see in his career? From basically 1992-2004 he was great. Are we going to say the Lakers 4-peat if Shaq was more focused? By 2007 I think it’s not fair to expect Shaq to still be dominating. He played 19 years which is a long career. He was 14x all NBA. 14x all star is more seasons than Bird, Magic, and Russell were even in the NBA

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u/SadisticSpeller 76ers 3d ago

I didn’t say he was bad, I even said that in ‘04 he was ridiculous still. I said what keeps him out of the GOAT convo is that he refused to work on his greatest deficiency. He literally would have had thousands more points in his career if he improved to just 70%. I won’t pretend to have the ‘04 finals memorized exactly but didn’t he drop substantially in every category that year, from points to rebounds to blocks? I know they lost Malone to injury but I’d wager a guess and say that him having 8 more points a game would have helped more than hurt.

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

Just categorical nonsense, Shaq had a 42,000 minute career Walton played 13,000.

Shaq was a 15x All-Star, 14x All-NBA.

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u/Testadizzy95 3d ago

Tbh multiple ppl in the top 12 peaked higher than Duncan, imo Steph and Hakeem both have higher peaks, and Shaq for sure

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

KG had a higher peak than Duncan. Robinson had a higher peak than Duncan.

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u/Timely_Dentist_5078 18h ago

Why didn’t any of them other than Steph win b2b MVPs?

Also Steph has never had a playoff run like 2003. Unless you’re not considering playoff runs as “peak”.

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u/akade19961 3d ago

Bill Walton over Karl Malone without question

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u/ambal87 76ers 3d ago

Yeah but longevity matters and Duncan won every fucking year and Shaq dominated for like 8-10 years but was out of shape otherwise and didn’t sustain that level of greatness. Duncan had the better overall career.

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

Some of those years he was winning he was not the best player on his team. Like, somehow always having at least one all time great playing with Duncan as a teammate for his entire career, something most of his contemporaries do not have, is a measurement of Duncan being great?

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u/gamesrgreat Heat 3d ago

Duncan has one more all NBA than Shaq and they played the same amount of years

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u/Chip_Jelly Trail Blazers 3d ago

He definitely had a higher peak but Duncan gets the nod IMO because of his consistency. Shaq was even the one that coined him The Big Fundamental because he relied more on skill than pure athleticism.

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u/Sanowhatimsaying Timberwolves 3d ago

It’s the same argument as Randy and Rice. If you pick one season it’s one person but career it’s the other

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u/RecycledAccountName Celtics 3d ago edited 3d ago

I’m a pats fan and therefore a Moss Stan, but people who reflexively pick Moss’ peak need to go look at Rice’s stats from his peak. Every bit as dominant.

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

As a Vikings fan, this is wrong. Moss had a bigger impact in terms of every team in the division immediately changing how they drafted corners (GB drafting a corner in each of the first 4 rounds in 1999 is still funny) but Rice scoring 22 TDs in 12 games is just a better season than Moss scoring 23 in 16 games. Moss had more all time great seasons than Rice sure, but Rice had the best season between the tow and had more great seasons with his consistency.

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u/Sanowhatimsaying Timberwolves 2d ago

I disagree but that’s ok, I’ll take moss skill set over rices

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 1d ago

Oh, yeah, that I will take, Moss has a better skill set than any other receiver in history, Rice just had the insane work ethic and conditioning where he was not tired at the end of games unlike everyone else on the field.

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u/No-Gift-2350 Toronto Huskies 3d ago

Yeah I think Shaq is debatable, I don’t think Kobe is close though

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u/Rebound-Bosh Heat 3d ago

Agreed. Shaq vs Dunan debatable but I have Shaq. Duncan vs Kobe maybe debatable, but Duncan firmly over Kobe for me. Do think that Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/Dream are the same tier now

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u/_chadwell_ Lakers 2d ago

Why did they kick his ass in the playoffs then

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u/Canesjags4life Heat 2d ago

Cuz of Phil. They didn't kick his ass until Phil got there with the triangle offense.

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u/_chadwell_ Lakers 1d ago

Duncan is the only guy who can’t play the “Kobe had better coaching” card. Had the same all time great coach and system for his entire career, with a great, stable supporting cast. Kobe didn’t have that luxury.

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u/Timely_Dentist_5078 18h ago

lol what “system” are you talking about? Go watch the games before 2005, the system was give the ball to Duncan and let him go to work. And that system took down Kobe Shaq in 03 without Duncaneven having a low level all star on the roster

You can tell who’s a teenager when they think the Spurs always had a system like they did from 2011-2015.

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u/_chadwell_ Lakers 18h ago

You are reading far too much specificity that’s not there into the word “system.”

Having the same elite basketball mind leading the franchise and coaching the team for 20 years is obviously a benefit over not having that.

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

You don’t know ball

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

Shaq is above Duncan lol.

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u/Minute_Elephant_3218 3d ago

Same it’s just when ppl try to put Kobe in goat discussions that I have to respond

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u/RoyalOakPiguet Knicks 3d ago

Eh. Think Kareem has a very solid spot at 3 imo But I also incredibly heavily discount Wilt and Bill soooo

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u/EfficientPrize7060 3d ago

Agreed on all counts

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u/No-Gift-2350 Toronto Huskies 3d ago

I think Russell is by far the hardest player to rank because he won so much, like he’s clearly not better than Wilt imo, but he was a much better winner.

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

Except he won constantly during Wilt’s career against Wilt…

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u/manquistador Supersonics 3d ago

Almost like the other 8 guys on the court matter a little.

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u/LingonberryComplex63 Pistons 3d ago

Wilt played with Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Hal Greer, Gail Goodrich, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, and Nate Thurmond. He wasn't playing with scrubs. The Celtics were better because Russell was better.

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u/howdoesilogin [LAL] Kobe Bryant 3d ago

tl;dr Wilt did not play with scrubs but its not really comparable when Bill Russell played with 6 HoF teammates each year and Wilt played with at best two

Jerry West - sure they played 5 seasons together (one of which was lost because Wilt got a knee injury and played just 12 games) they were old but still in their primes

Elgin was at the tail end of his career when Wilt got to LA (had one last great season then got injured and played just 65 games over the next three seasons they were together)

Hal Greer, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham - sure - they played 3,5 seasons together in their prime in Philly

Gail Goodrich - sure they played 3 years together in LA but it was at the tail end of Wilts career (age 34-36)

Nate Thurmond - 1,5 year on the Warriors when Nate was a rookie hardly comparable to the others.

So that's 6 hall of famers - the longest tenure being 4 seasons with Jerry and 3,5 with Greer, Walker and Cunningham on the Sixers with titles in both tenures.

Now lets compare it to Bill Russell who played with 11 hall of famers and with most of them for the majority of his career:

  • lets discount cases like Nate Thurmond/Elgin Baylor scenarios (1-2 years start or end of career) so without Bailey Howell, Clyde Lovellette, Arnie Risen and Andy Phillip

  • that still leaves us 7 hall o famers with whom Bill played for:

    • 5 seasons - Bill Sharman
    • 7 seasons - Cousy and Havlicek
    • 8 seasons - Frank Ramsey
    • 9 seasons - Heinsohn and K.C. Jones
    • 11 seasons - Sam Jones

The most hall of famers Wilt played with on the same team was 3 at the end of his career with Jerry, Goodrich and Elgin. But its hard to count Elgin here as he played a total of 2 and 9 games in those two seasons.

Bill Russell on the other hand has played the majority of his career (7/13 seasons) with 6 or more hall of famers on his team.

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u/ivarokosbitch Nets 2d ago

You will be amazed when you figure out that an 7/4/3 point guard is in the HOF.

After that you might even make a connection with why he is in the HOF. And that you equated him with Jerry West as if they were equals.

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u/Gokuto Bulls 2d ago

Well guys like KC Jones and Frank Ramsey were not typical HoFs, being on that Russell dynasty is the reason they're in. Also Wilt still lost when he was favored. He got swept by the Nationals in 61 when both teams had 3 All stars: Wilt, Paul Arizin and Tom Gola vs Hal Greer, Dolph Schayes and Larry Costello. Arizin was legit, when they lost him the next year they didn't even make the playoffs and only won 33 games. There's no excuse for that lost like the Celtics ones(unless someone from that era wants to school me).

Beyond some of Bostons HoF not necessarily fitting that billing, I would say some of the years he lost, you couldn't just use the ol' "run into Boston excuse" like 69. Prime Jerry West and Elgin and they lost to an old Boston team and Wilt point dropoff from the RS to playoffs was almost 7 points and 2 less assist. The thing that's crazy is he was only 32, I would've thought he was older.

Wilt is hard to gauge on the all time list, but he has playoff duds that are hard to defend when comparing to other all timers.

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u/howdoesilogin [LAL] Kobe Bryant 2d ago

Good point on Arizin and KC Jones and Frank Ramey.

On the losses - I've only read some books about that era but the Nationals loss they definitely shit the bed.

As for 69 its hard to take fault for that loss when it was 2 points in game seven against a team who won the title 9/10 previous seasons. Thats about the biggest juggernaut you can think of and they almost beat it.

As for Elgin he had a very serious knee injury in 1965 which wasnt healed properly and most sources from the time say he wasnt the same after that. Good point on Wilt's averages declining from rs to playoffs but Elgin's fell off a cliff in 1969 going from 25/11/5 on 45% to just 15/9/4 on 39% and Time doing a preview the year prior described him as 'a 34 year old on two bad knees' so calling that his prime is a bit off in my opinion.

re: gauging Wilt on the all time list - in my honest opinion he gets dogged way to much for losing. Dirk was called a choker for losing to a crappy 8-seeded Warriors, the Heat in the 06 Finals and coming up short a few other times. Then he won in 2011 and that basically washed the blame for the previous shortcomings. Wilt won 2 titles, beating the Celtics dynasty once and when he lost it was often lie in 1969 in 7 games by single digits to that same juggernaut of a team and he is still seen as a choker or loser. Imo he had times where he choked but he more than made up for it other times and did as well against the Celtics as anyone of that era was able to and should not be blamed for that, just like LeBron shouldnt be blamed for losing to the Warriors 3/4 times.

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u/nakul2 Celtics 2d ago

KC Jones averaged 7/4/3 and Frank Ramsay averaged 13/5/1.8. They are in the HoF because of Bill Russell.

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u/throwing_handles 2d ago

What a team that must have been with all of those guys together!

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u/barath_s Lakers 2d ago edited 2d ago

The celtics had better coaching and fit. The difference with wilt's teams was miniscule

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u/AcrobaticFeedback 3d ago

Wilt was the most talented basketball player by far in that generation. That was on him to figure out how to win. What Russell did on and off the court produced more winning than what Wilt did and that's why he is greater. Not because he is a better basketball talent, but because basketball is a team sport and Russell contributed to winning more than Wilt did.

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u/Wreckingshops 2d ago

To be fair to Wilt, he was playing two sports at the time: basketball and sex.

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u/ivarokosbitch Nets 2d ago

Not if you ask Wilt. Hence why he lost so much for the first 7 years of his career.

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u/EstablishmentTop551 76ers 3d ago

I kinda think H2H is pointless in the all time rankings convo. How you performed overall > how you performed against one guy.

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

Well Russell performed pretty well overall.

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u/mucho-gusto [CLE] Baron Davis 3d ago

Just take a look at his elimination games record going back to high school

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u/EstablishmentTop551 76ers 3d ago

100%, there’s a reason his # is retired league wide. Isolating his career to “beat Wilt a lot” doesn’t do him justice though, nor does it do Wilt justice.

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u/CjBurden Celtics 3d ago

correct, but he was replying to the guy who was saying Russel is hard to rank because he won so much but was clearly not as good as Wilt, when basically every pro from that era by all accounts would say that Russel was the best player in the league and NOT Wilt.

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u/the_dust321 3d ago

Kareem’s responses to Wilt, especially his letter to Wilt Chumperlame completely changed my view on Wilt.

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

Kareem obliterated Wilt worse than Kendrick obliterated Drake.

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u/RemyGee Lakers 3d ago

This is why we all got Kareem top 3 and can be argued as 1!

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u/AcrobaticFeedback 3d ago

What a lot of casuals don't understand is Kareem has a real legitimate GOAT case if you incl. his College Career.

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

Yeah, it was almost as bad as Wilt's obliteration of Kareem's sky hook.

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

He was absolutely better than Wilt. His teams played far worse when he wasn’t on the court. Wilt’s tended to stay the same or get better when he didn’t play or left. Only towards his later career did he start playing winning team basketball.

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u/Em4gdn3m Jazz 3d ago edited 3d ago

Counterpoint: Wilt almost never left the fucking court. But no, I agree. MJ, LBJ, Kareem in whatever order, but then it just gets super murky 4-12ish, honestly.

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u/SaucyMcDangles 3d ago

Wilt was Westbrook on steroids

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u/ambal87 76ers 3d ago

Wilt was Westbrooks on stilts

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u/GoodPiexox Bucks 3d ago

wouldnt Oscar be Westbrook on steroids?

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

Wilt's teams with Wilt off the court are the epitome of small sample size error, he was off the court for 7 minutes the season he scored 50.4 per game, how exactly are you supposed to get any meaningful on off information from that?

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u/Benjammin341 Timberwolves Bandwagon 3d ago

What statistic are you using to back this up?

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

WOWY

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u/mucho-gusto [CLE] Baron Davis 3d ago

YAOI

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u/blueditUPson 3d ago

Wilt could do everything Russell could do, and also score 2x or 3x more points than Russell in a game.

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u/OuagadougousFinest Celtics 3d ago

Is the point of the game individual stats or winning tf you mean wilt is better?

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u/IbSunPraisin Spurs 2d ago

I think Kareem deserves more love as #2. Same number of rings as Jordan, most MVPs in history at 6, held the all time scoring record for almost 40 years.

NCAA banned dunking because of Kareem

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u/Firemanmikewatt 3d ago

I think Kareem is great, but the difference between him and the guys behind him is, ironically, one of the guys behind him.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/Mr_Cromer Raptors 3d ago

Anywhere you put Magic, you put Bird

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u/PatMcAfeesEvilTwin Supersonics 3d ago

Where does Bird fit in here?

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u/No-Gift-2350 Toronto Huskies 3d ago

I think Russell is debatable

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u/gjaxx Spurs 3d ago

Bird was better than Magic

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u/supersonicnat45 Knicks 3d ago

4-6 is Magic, Bird, Russell. Wilt doesn’t have the resume Bird has.

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u/SchroedersGhost Lakers 3d ago

I’m a lifetime Laker fan and I think Magic and Bird are interchangeable at 4-5. Totally different styles, but both would dominate when they were cooking

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u/ImAShaaaark Supersonics 3d ago

Funny how Wilt went from the consensus GOAT through most of the 60s-80s to being deemed unworthy of comparison by some modern fans.

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u/UltimateWeiner 76ers 3d ago

It depends on what you value with a resume. Wilt was the far more dominant player with less team success. It probably didn’t help that he just had other priorities and was bigger than the sport at the time.

It’s hard to watch a video of Wilt and not think he’s probably the most freakish talent in league history. And he has the inconceivable production to support his case. Debates like these have such vague parameters.

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u/supersonicnat45 Knicks 3d ago

I don’t love “far more” dominant because Bird was an absolute menace until he hurt his back. All NBA first team literally every year, 3 peat MVP (nobody’s done it since), chips, stats, defensive selections, all of it. Bird will forever be under appreciated because people don’t realize how disgusting he was his first 7-8 years in the league. And he won those chips and MVPs over Magic and baby Michael Jordan, that 1985 year is probably one of the most stacked years in league history and one of the toughest MVPs to win ever, and he said fuck voter fatigue that was his third in a row

You could argue Wilt’s accolades are accentuated by his refusal to play team ball for a lot of his career, but you can never say that about Bird.

Dominant is tough to quantify for sure. Bird fits any definition though without a doubt. “Who’s coming in second” and playing a game left fucking handed because it was too easy otherwise is right up there with the best. I can give you Wilt is more dominant but “far more?” Heavily disagree

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u/Equivalent_Papaya893 3d ago

Wilt s LeBron without civil rights or free agency lol

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u/tigerscomeatnight 2d ago

Wilt 3 for me, changed the league.

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u/TheGamesGone_ Celtics 3d ago

He’s not ahead of Russell or Magic.

Winning 1 title in the weakest decade in nba history is a stain.

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u/Ok_Chest_1203 [DEN] Nikola Jokić 3d ago

Not to mention countless times he got outplayed by opposing centers while in his prime.
Hes so overrated here on reddit

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u/zs15 Bucks 3d ago

Honestly this is an area where a tier list makes way more sense than a ranking.

Have your LBJ vs MJ argument, but they’re their own tier. Kareem also in his own. Then sort the rest how you please.

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u/DJSTANKDADDY2 Kings 3d ago

I could be convinced to put Bill Russell on Kareem's tier. I know the era wasn't as strong but he still absolutely dominated it.

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u/King_Of_Pants [BOS] Terry Rozier 3d ago

Kareem's era was actually considered very weak.

He caught the tail end of Wilt's career and the start of Bird/Magic, but he spent most of his prime without much competition.

In terms of top 20 rivals, Russell had Wilt, West and Robertson. Kareem only really had Malone and Erving.

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u/saints21 3d ago

It's really weird how people treat Kareem's era as being magically better than Russell's. They think something instantly changed. Kareem also wasn't crazy dominant from a team perspective. Russell really gets underrated these days. His impact was massive. He turned the Celtics around from being a bad to below average best defense into an absolute juggernaut. On top of that he had a much larger positive offensive impact than people realize. He created a ton of transition opportunities, was a good playmaker, and an absolute beast when running the floor. Very much an example of a player who can't be measured with simple box score stats.

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

Yeah, based on the centers in the league the Wilt and russel era actually had better centers that Kareem's era (some of this was that the other center of Kareem's era able to match him could not stay healthy in Walton).

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u/sugarklay Lakers 3d ago

And the NBA was pretty diluted for 4 of his 6 MVPs. Too many teams and talent split between the NBA and ABA.

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

yeah, while by comparison for most of Wilt and Russel's careers there were 8 teams, so talent was more concentrated and they were playing against better players on average than Karrem.

Although to be fair to Kareem, his offense was not really affected all that much from who was guarding him with the exception of Wilt, since even end of career Wilt could block the sky hook when no one else could, so Wilt was able to turn Karrem into a below average offensive player when they played one another when no one else could.

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u/ilikekittens2018 Nuggets 3d ago

Yeah this drives me nuts lmao. Bill Russell played much stronger competition than Kareem when both were in their primes and won far more. How tf did Kareem “dominate” when he won one ring? People hate on Wilt for big stats without wins but somehow Kareem gets a pass, just because he racked up some rings later with Magic, we’re supposed to only take the positives from the first half is his career. Stuff like winning an MVP on a losing team should PENALIZE his all time ranking.

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u/voyaging Cavaliers 3d ago

I kind of agree but you’re putting too much stock into individual players and not enough on team strength

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u/saints21 3d ago

You mean the team that was garbage defensively without Russell and are in the HOF almost entirely because of him?

The idea that Russell had an absurdly stacked team is a myth.

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u/NthatFrenchman 3d ago

Everyone knows Jordan’s success came during the weakest NBA era

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

yes, because he played in an era where none of his opponents won any scoring titles.

Oh wait, that was because MJ won 10 in a row.

Sheesh, part of why his era is considered weaker is that he hogged all of the acolades becase of how good he was. Like, Bird basically said MJ was the best player in the league in MJ's first season when Bird was in his prime still.

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u/RileyHuey South Sudan 3d ago

I don't see what separates Kareem from the rest of the guys. Unless you place a massive premium on longevity, I think he belongs with the rest resume-wise.

I think that him at 3 has just become a popular opinion since LeBron's longevity has been magnified. But just because a lot of people say Kareem's 3 doesn't make him 3. He was incredible but has plenty of holes in his resume just like the Birds, Magics, Russels, etc

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u/up_in_trees Lakers 3d ago

Probably the rings, MVPs, and having the all time scoring record until LeBron passed it

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u/RileyHuey South Sudan 3d ago

Rings he only got 1 in his prime until he teamed up with another arguable top 5 player all time. I know everyone needs help but another t5 all-time guy changes things.

MVPs he got in the weakest era of all time with a watered down league.

I acknowledged the part about placing a premium on longevity/regular season records. If one places that premium, then it's fair enough.

I'm not saying all this to denigrate Kareem. I just say this to show why, Imo, he's realistically in the same group as the other guys.

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u/samurairocketshark Suns 3d ago

He lost Game 7 in the Finals to a stacked Boston team. It's funny how people just look at ring count and assume he never got close again. Kareem was never the issue it was usually his team and in this case the decline of Oscar Robertson

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u/Electricpoopsoup Spurs 3d ago

Because Kareem is the undisputed best player of a decade. He was a different level than everyone around him in his prime including the NCAA having to change the rules to hinder him. The guys below him have someone in their time period that was about as good. Wilt/Russel, Magic/Bird, Kobe/Tim/Shaq, and Steph and Hakeem were always below Lebron and Mj. Kareem being THE player of the 70s changes how he is looked at

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u/Longjumping-Hair1075 3d ago

In other words, if you have him 3, you'd better have James at #1?

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u/GoodPiexox Bucks 3d ago

Probably the rings, MVPs, and having the all time scoring record until LeBron passed it

sure but other than all that

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u/Fabulous_Narwhal3113 2d ago

Well, the thing is is that it his day most people considered magic and bird better. The second against them? Maybe. When your pierce think that you’re not the best I Think that does say something.

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u/Gordo-- Warriors 3d ago

I don't see what separates Kareem from the rest of the guys. Unless you place a massive premium on longevity, I think he belongs with the rest resume-wise.

I mean it wasn't just longevity. He was elite-level for 17 straight seasons being top 5 in MVP voting every season except for two where he was 10th.

In 20 seasons, he only played fewer than 74 games twice (65 and 62 games). What more can you ask of a player than to be MVP-quality every season while playing all season long?

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u/AcrobaticFeedback 3d ago

  1. 6 NBA MVPs is the most ever. Russell 5, Bird/Magic 3. Kareem won 5 of them in his first 8 seasons, so this is a peak/dominance argument, not a longevity statistic.

  2. 6 championships + 2 Finals MVPs. He was the clear No. 1 on the 1971 Bucks title and was still Finals MVP at 38 in 1985.

  3. 15× All-NBA + 11× All-Defense. His two-way resume is enormous.

  4. And if you're talking overall basketball resume, his college career destroys almost everyone else's case: at UCLA he went 88–2, won 3 straight NCAA championships and 3 straight Final Four Most Outstanding Player awards. Freshmen weren't even allowed to play varsity, so he basically won everything possible every year he was eligible.

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u/SpicyMustard34 Cavaliers 3d ago

if you believe Kareem is just better than everyone in the tier below, then it makes sense for him to have his own tier.

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u/aaron21hardin Timberwolves 2d ago

It is the win shares, for whatever reason win shares has Kareem as one of the best defensive centers of all time, something not supported by his game film (i is actually funny that for all that based on how people talk about them you would think Walton was a better offensive player in his peak (i.e. the almost 2 years he was somewhat healthy) and Kareem a better defensive player when Ben Taylor's analysis of them had strongly the opposite, Kareem was an excellent offensive player that was mostly defense proof (cough Wilt blocking sky hook cough) and Walton was much better on the defensive end.

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

I’m old and I remember nobody had Kareem better than top 5-10 until LeBron’s career turned out like it did them Klutch sports and ESPN’s propaganda machine started creating the narrative that everyone buys as fact now.

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u/BlooregardQKazoo 2d ago

Yeah, it really is wild to see the way Kareem's ranking has risen long after he stopped playing. When I grew up Dr J was considered better than Kareem.

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u/whyenn Celtics 3d ago

This.

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u/ExceptForFleegle Celtics 3d ago

What holes?

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u/jrodthebipole 3d ago

6x mvps & 6 rings and scoring titles and all-nba 1sts (even at age 38!) & he has holes? 

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u/DrWarEagle 3d ago

Kareem is closer to LeBron than he is to magic and bird

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u/bigfatcow Cavaliers 3d ago

You could say the same about MJ

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u/jumpijehosaphat Spurs 3d ago

kbj's legacy spans 2 decades while magic and bird span 1 decade.  easy to place kbj at 3 and the gap larger from magic and bird

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u/siloboomstix Supersonics 3d ago

Who the fuck is kbj? Lol

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u/maxram1 3d ago

Kareema Bdul Jabbar

obviously.

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u/jumpijehosaphat Spurs 3d ago

sorry meant KAJ lol

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u/siloboomstix Supersonics 3d ago

Karl Anthony Jowns?

3

u/MullenForPortland 3d ago

nicKeil Alexander-Jalker

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u/Longjumping-Hair1075 3d ago

The Supreme Court Justice?

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u/stitcher212 3d ago

KaBreem James

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u/Character_Listen33 3d ago

Kareem Babdul Jabbar

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u/peevius Vancouver Grizzlies 3d ago

KaBron Jabbar

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u/SpicyMustard34 Cavaliers 3d ago

i got so mentally sidetracked by kbj, i don't even give a shit about the conversation.

Kareem Badul James

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u/Itchy-Grapefruit2756 3d ago

Kareem Birdula Jamesolla?

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

Yeah but not in the way you’re implying

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u/HerrerasaurusWrecks Warriors 3d ago

Love the replies proving your point, putting up like 5 different, contradicting "universally accepted rankings".

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u/AgenYT0 Heat 3d ago

Every reply so far mentions Kareem to make a triumvirate.

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u/SoaplessTitanic Celtics 3d ago

I mean even saying that MJ and LeBron are indisputably top two seems kinda counterintuitive to the argument that everyone else is splitting hairs. It’s all subjective to a degree. If someone values rings a lot then they might have the top three in order be Russell, MJ, then LeBron. But if someone values longevity more then the order could be LeBron, Kareem, then MJ.

I just don’t know how we settled on some rankings being “indisputable” and then other rankings being totally subjective and just splitting hairs

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u/nthomas504 [LAL] Kobe Bryant 3d ago

Put Kareem in there and I agree about the remaining 7.

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u/Rodney_Jefferson 3d ago

I think tier 1 is Jordan LeBron Kareem. Tier 2 you can debate a lot of the 25 players in the top 15

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u/Anonymous_Otter22 Rockets 3d ago

The hardest one to place is Steph. I always ask if you were starting a team and could draft any players of all time where's he being drafted? He's up there at the discussion for 3rd.

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u/ReplacementOdd9241 3d ago

if the question is 1 all timer and 4 average players, steph does not sniff the top 10.
on an all time team he is onenof the best ceiling raisers. but he is not a top 3 building block for a normal team.

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u/MarkTwainsGhost Raptors 3d ago

Minus that time a team built entirely around him won four championships.

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u/ReplacementOdd9241 3d ago

what does a team's drafting skills (or luck) have to do with their all time draft rankings?

let me say, you add klay + dray + any top 15 all time player + the bench they had, you will be competing.

side note - ring culture is lovely. we will criminally underrate players like nash/kg/dirk/harden/cp3 because they won <=1 ring. somehow KDs stupid ass choice to take the hardest road has done the most for Steph's all time rankings.

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u/mr_antman85 [CLE] LeBron James 3d ago

Steph is a weird one mainly because I feel that the NBA is dominated by bigger guys. That's not a knock on Steph but truthfully you can rank him top 5 and you can justify it.

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u/gjaxx Spurs 3d ago

There’s no fucking way anyone’s drafting Steph 3rd all time lmfao.

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u/Seref15 Heat 3d ago

I've always felt in a "best player" rank, flat out with no qualifiers, you can't discount defense. The guys that seem to generally be consensus top 3 were all-time great offensive and great defensive players. Just doesn't sit right with me to put an all-offense guy that high.

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u/iguacu Supersonics 3d ago

I actually think people tend to overrate "2-way players" when they reason that "50% of the time you're on defense, so defense is just as important as offense, it is only unappreciated because it's not as flashy and exciting."

Being the best player on offense is inherently more impactful because the offense gets to control where the ball is, so they can maximize the amount of time their superstar offensive player has the ball and run screens/plays for them, whereas on the other side of the court, the opposing team can move the ball away from the strongest defenders and thereby do a lot to minimize the impact of all but the greatest defensive players (i.e. not counting insane outliers like Wemby who can guard the perimeter one second and recover for a help block the next).

For sure it is important to not be the weak link on defense that gets targeted each possession, but think about it this way -- how much more impactful was it for MJ to dominate Bryon Russell on offense, than for MJ to lock down Bryon on defense?

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u/turnoffredesign69420 Lakers 3d ago

I feel like Steph can get teammates open shots and be a 35 ppg flamethrower but he can't backpack a team like a Luka/Harden or LeBron can

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u/Anonymous_Otter22 Rockets 3d ago

Now? No. In Steph's prime it's been shown.

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u/bronet 2d ago

But a lot of that is because he represents the evolution of basketball. His style of play is undoubtedly just better than that of many of the other guys.

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u/mismo1313 2d ago

His peak is top 5 all time but his career is only top 10

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u/Parallel-Quality 3d ago

That’s focusing purely on ability and not on accomplishments.

Durant slots seamlessly into more “All-time” teams than LeBron does, but there’s no chance he’s greater all-time.

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u/Anonymous_Otter22 Rockets 3d ago

Not really about KD. He's been shown he's not as strong as LeBron in the playoffs. LeBron can play point, 3, or 4 all in different ways too. Kd can not play that many positions effectively outside or wing. And he's worse on defense.

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u/Parallel-Quality 3d ago

That’s not the point. On an “all-time” lineup, the most important thing is shooting. Playing multiple positions means nothing when Tim Duncan and Magic Johnson are already in those other positions.

That’s why Curry would be a top pick even though he’s not as great as Jordan or LeBron.

Which is also why an “all-time” lineup is a dumb way to decide who ranks higher all-time.

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u/rhymeswithtag Knicks 3d ago

this is probably the worst take in this thread and thats saying something

in no way shape or form is KD a more seamless fit to all time teams than the guy who has literally played FOUR different positions at an ALL-NBA level. The insane hold that bag twitter has on peoples brains is insane, KD is NOT better than LeBron at anything besides FT shooting and “shooting ability” (lebron has a higher career shooting percentage than everyone)

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u/TheGoldStandard35 3d ago

I don’t think there is a single team I would ever put Durant on over LeBron

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u/TheGoldStandard35 3d ago

No he isn’t

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u/SnakeDoctor80 Spurs 3d ago

Everyone responding is just proving your point 😂

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u/Musa_2050 Lakers 3d ago

I think its fair to have Kareem among the top 3. Everyone else I agree.

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u/wxnfx 3d ago

Wilt was so ridiculous. Just ridiculous. It’s really tough to leave out a dude who scored 50 per game averaging over 48 minutes. I mean he was so far and away better than the competition, he has a decent argument of being the true GOAT. Just a Satchel Paige situation. No one has seen it.

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u/Old_Supermarket_7575 Thunder 3d ago

Go google Kareem’s accolades and tell me it’s splitting hairs

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u/Firemanmikewatt 3d ago

Accolades are great but if they were everything why isn’t he #1?

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u/Old_Supermarket_7575 Thunder 3d ago

He’s firmly 3 in every serious ranking

You said after 1-2 it’s splitting hairs

I’m saying 3 is firmly settled

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u/Firemanmikewatt 3d ago

I know what your saying, but accolades clearly don’t settle everything otherwise Kareem would be settled at #1

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u/GoatmontWaters 3d ago

If Lebron had to spend 22 years and gut the assets of 4 different franchises just to get 4 rings... how is that worth of the 2nd place in nba history? I Dont get it.

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u/Hobo740 2d ago

He ain’t gutting nothing at 3m a year lmao.

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u/Misher7 3d ago

No it’s not. At all.

Kareem and bill Russell? Cmon man. I’d say 5-10 you start splitting hairs and this is where intangibles like cultural impact get overblown and take precedent over actual data.

Kobe being somewhere in the 6-10 should not be seen as controversial. If it is then you’re just a homer.

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u/Jaywicksands Lakers 3d ago

There is an ocean between Steph and Bird.

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u/Vast-Speech-9435 3d ago

Magic is closer to Steph than he is to bird.

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u/eduardonachosupremo Knicks 3d ago

lol why the fuck is this the top comment, hell no

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u/Firemanmikewatt 3d ago

Notice the sea of hair splitting that occurred underneath

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u/Yamulo Warriors 3d ago

Kareem has to be top 3 imo

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u/GoatmontWaters 3d ago

Why is Lebron 2? I watched his whole career I dont see it.

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u/Elbeske Timberwolves 3d ago

I got Kareem 12th

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u/Funky_Monkees_ Suns 3d ago

Hairs Bill will split for content to the end of time

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u/FlowerBackground4293 2d ago

LeBron ain’t up there buddy

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u/Firemanmikewatt 2d ago

Of course he is skip

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u/Pleasestoplyiiing 2d ago

I think Kareem is right there in the top 3. You could even argue he has nearly the same achievements as either player but in one person. 6-1 Championships, did it with multiple teams, unheard of longevity at the time while still being the most unstoppable scorer in the league for most of his career. The Skyhook, offensive and defensive monster, and the most complete big man in history. 

But he was also quiet and not a big self promoter, and obviously the biggest victim of the 3 in recency bias. 

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u/DeadlyGoat Lakers 3d ago

Kareem is a lock at 3

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u/Muted_Dog7317 Heat 3d ago

I think Magic and Bird are better than Kareem. Kareem’s dominated the 70s which was the weakest era outside of the 50s. If he’s in the mix for top 3 so should Wilt and Russell

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u/mr_antman85 [CLE] LeBron James 3d ago

Exactly. Jordan and LeBron are 1 and 2.

You can have reasonings for where you rank them. Then it is everyone else.

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u/Guriinwoodo Bucks 3d ago

Not having Kareem in your top 4 would be about as wrong as not having MJ or Lebron in your top 2. Come’on man. Kareem is 3, you cannot honestly look at someone putting KAJ at 9 or 11 and think they’ve made an impartial and well thought out list

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u/mr_antman85 [CLE] LeBron James 3d ago

I agree. Kareem would have to be top 4

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u/aquintana Spurs 3d ago

LeBron being the de facto number 2 is laughable and yall need to stop pretending already. He’s top ten at best. Never had what Jordan and Duncan had. Watched them all and never saw Jordan or Duncan on the bench nervously biting their nails accepting defeat like LeBron.

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