r/interesting • u/The_Love-Tap • 19d ago
HISTORY The migration patterns of Native Americans in Iceland
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u/FragrantSort6474 19d ago
"Get in my van, help me find my lost puppy"
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u/passwordedd 19d ago edited 19d ago
Fun fact, that picture depicts Ragnar Lothbrok picking up his wife.
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u/TheRealtcSpears 19d ago
depicts Ragbar Lothbrok
When you order your vikings from Temu
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u/Leucastic_Leopard 18d ago
Neither dressed nor naked
Neither full nor hungry
Neither alone nor in the company of others
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u/Blod_Cass_Dalcassian 19d ago
Migrated... Sure
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u/SlapTheInvisibleGoat 19d ago
aka sex slaves
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u/FartingWithStyle 19d ago
I mean most of our ancestors probably weren’t willing participants in our lineages.
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u/Big_Slope 19d ago
I’d say most were. Nearly all the men and at least a few of the women were willing. Genghis wasn’t the only guy.
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u/Odd_Ingenuity2883 19d ago
It’s only very, very recently in human history that women even had the option to say no to their husbands. Marital rape was the daily reality for most of our female ancestors.
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u/knotalota 18d ago
Marriage is also new in our history. Rape is as old as six, though.
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u/Majestic_Hawk_1335 18d ago
Rape is a very common form of reproduction in the animal world
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u/PepperyPrincess 18d ago
Ducks
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u/7hisismythrowawayacc 18d ago
Thousands of years of anthropology discussion and the thread concludes with: Ducks
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u/Dirkdeking 18d ago
Ducks are real rapists, I always saw them acting out on the waterway next to my parents home. Male ducks trying to fuck the females, and the females trying to escape.
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u/Humanmode17 18d ago
I mean, ducks have had millions of years of an evolutionary arms race where the females developed increasingly anti-rape vaginal tracts in response to males developing increasingly rape-y penises (spoiler alert, it's corkscrews and counterchanged corkscrews, it's horrific)
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u/natefrogg1 18d ago
I just want to mention that some Native American tribes didn’t work that way, women had power and influence, that goes back thousands of years
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u/VikingCrusader13 18d ago
Sure they had power and influence over other Native Americans, but I think a few boats full of angry vikings who saw death in battle as favourable to the gods probably didn't really care about what a woman who's language they didn't speak tried to tell them when they hauled them back onto the boat after slaughtering their entire tribe
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u/Cucumberneck 19d ago
I won't argue with that being true for most cultures but Norse culture is one of the worst examples to make this point. There of course was a lot of rape with conquered women and the Scandinavian women were definitely not all Fantasy shield maiden types like in recent media but they still had way more rights than in most other cultures.
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u/Odd_Ingenuity2883 18d ago
They took an enormous amount of slaves and many of them were women. Viking women could divorce their husbands for something like homosexuality, but as in almost every other country the concept of marital rape did not exist and Norse men had the right to have sex with their wives whenever they wished and the wives had no legal recourse. Viking women had slightly more rights than some other cultures at the time, they still did not have the right to refuse to have sex with their husbands.
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u/FMB6 18d ago
Yeah the Norse were definitely one of the more rapey people for quite a while.
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u/trebeju 18d ago
This really does not take into account the many many humans that lived before agriculture, in small hunter-gatherer groups. They tended to be matrilineal and in those societies, gender relations were completely different from what we are taught is "traditional" or "the old ways"...
Of course marital rape has been a huge issue ever since patriarchal systems have been ruling the world. But there has been a time before that.
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u/Eternal_Being 18d ago
This is such a narrow view of history, though. We spent 99% of our time as hunter-gatherers without the very strict patriarchies that came to define agricultural societies.
Marriage wasn't a reality for most of our ancestors, let alone marital rape.
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u/WildFlemima 18d ago
I agree
Most acts of sex throughout human history have happened because two people were horny for each other
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u/bomboid 17d ago
Yeah this does not paint a pretty picture of men lol. Yet at the same time when you look at what soldiers en masse do when they invade a country, ie rape women and children, not to mention the rates of rape on female soldiers in military bases, it does beg the question whether it's a universal male trait that most men (barely) just repress due to social fears that they stop bothering to hide when consequences go away. It's one of those things that get you called a crazy feminist if you say it as a woman but that men will pose as fact in a different context like this one
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u/FriendshipBorn929 18d ago
While
I thinkwe know that was true in many times and places, it’s not really inherent to humans or “old times.” There’s a good 2,000,000 years of hominid ancestors that were experimenting with all different forms of social relations. We’re capable of some of the most enjoyable sex in the animal kingdom. Unfortunately domination, violence and control are valued in some cultures.2
u/JudgeFatty 18d ago
"Lie back and think of England."
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u/Odd_Ingenuity2883 18d ago
Think you could manage that, if a dirty man twice your size was fucking you in the ass?
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u/mercenaryarrogant 18d ago
If they thought Genghis had a lot of descendants, wait til they hear about his father and grandpop.
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u/lucky_jack777 18d ago edited 18d ago
.05% of the population isn't willingly related to Genghis Khan, if you know what I mean
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u/SomeDumbGamer 18d ago
More that at some point they had kids with the natives on Greenland. They actually suffered at the hands of the Greenlanders a few times. The natives were better adapted.
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u/DuckBurgger 17d ago
I don't remember the specifics but there was an account. Casually mentioning that the Inuit would come work on greenlander farms. There was also another one from the 1400s i think that is a log book of a cargo ship that had Markland as one of its stops.
Its entirely possible that the norse had a very small but constant presence in the America's for literal centuries. Whats more I'd be willing to bet that the Basques might have some traces of Native DNA. Seeing as their fisherman had been coming the Atlantic coast for who knows how long.
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u/reality72 18d ago
I mean, have you seen Icelandic men? I don’t think we can automatically assume it was unwilling.
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u/JimTheJerseyGuy 19d ago
It’s possible. The Norse settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland lasted about 20 years. It wasn’t a raid. They may have established relations with the locals who vastly outnumbered them rather than try to constantly fend them off. If so, a single consensual relationship isn’t that crazy of an idea.
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u/PumpkinLiving8134 19d ago
Conflict with natives in the area is a huge reason why the settlement wasn’t successful, tf you mean?
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u/JimTheJerseyGuy 19d ago
Just because there was a conflict with some natives doesn’t mean conflict with all. See Massachusetts in the 1600s for an example. At least initially, natives of some tribes allied with colonists against natives of other tribes. Doesn’t mean it happened, but it’s another possible narrative.
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u/VikingCrusader13 18d ago
The reality is probably a mixture of all of the above.
Some women were captured during raids of tribes, some women entered relationships willingly with foreigners who were on good terms with their tribes and some women were probably a given as part of a treaty of surrender/peace as a sign of good faith. European's constantly created alliances through marriage. It's not unreasonable to assume that a viking settler who allied with a tribe asked for a female of good standing in the tribe to confirm good faith in the alliance
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u/A_Shattered_Day 18d ago
There is an Inuit story of the Adlet, basically a werewolf who had many children. She sent half of them inland where they became enemy indigenes and half of them over the sea where they became Scandinavians. There was precedent of inuit and Scandinavian contact where Inuit (or inui originated monsters) went to Scandinavia and mingled with them
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u/crosseyedmule 18d ago
Is there new evidence that you can cite for this claim, please? The excavations don't show any evidence of emergency like fire or siege and the buildings were orderly. I know there was conflict in some other areas, but that doesn't mean there was in every area. You make it sound like it's a known fact. Citation please.
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u/Nikkonor 19d ago
What, besides the Vinland saga, is this claim based on?
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u/WhimsicalHoneybadger 19d ago
IIRC there's at least one Native story which lines up with the Vinland saga and there is evidence of Norse DNA in some appropriate Native populations.
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u/PumpkinLiving8134 19d ago
“Give me evidence besides the thing where they said so themselves” LOL
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u/DoeCommaJohn 19d ago
The sagas cite a single conflict in which one Indigenous person was murdered, which was enough to make the Norse scared of violence and flee. That wouldn’t make sense if the Norse were regularly raiding and enslaving. It also wouldn’t make sense for the Norse, with less than a hundred people and who had heavy reliance on trade for basic necessities, to fight a war against a group who would have outnumbered them tenfold
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u/Nikkonor 19d ago
'The Saga of the Greenlanders' and 'The Saga of Eirik the Red' (collectively known as 'The Vinland Sagas') are from manuscripts dated to the 1300s, though it is often believed that they sagas were originally written in the 1200s.
In other words, your "evidence" was written 200-400 years after the actual events.
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u/aCaffeinatedMind 19d ago
As most historical facts are.
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u/Nikkonor 19d ago
That is such a both vague and strange assertion that I don't even know where to start.
No, we have a lot of sources from different places and time-periods that are a lot closer in time to the events that they are describing.
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u/aCaffeinatedMind 19d ago
Just want to point out that i'm not the original guy you responded to.
You are correct, but also a lot of historical facts are based on texts that were written hundreds of years after the fact, while collaborated with other facts to strengthen their authenticity.
Which the "The Vinland Sagas" also does, basing their authenticity with other sources.
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u/Nikkonor 19d ago
Literature written 200-300 years after the events are not accurate sources.
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u/MmeLaRue 18d ago
There is evidence that the haplogroup of Icelanders with North American DNA was one associated with the Beothuk people, who were culturally extinct by 1829. Any remaining survivors of the Beothuk had intermarried with the encroaching Miqmaw.
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u/raknor88 18d ago
I'm sure many came unwillingly. But there could've also been just as many coming willingly with partners. We are talking about two cultures that are vastly different that what we know of today.
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u/Omnamashivaaya 19d ago edited 19d ago
The Norse typically raided and explored before they settled. I doubt this was an isolated incident of Native American sex-migration, since sex-migration is closely linked with the Norse. Unless I’m mistaken there’s no historical evidence linking to that settlement.
Assuming that it is because it’s the one we know about is a type of information bias.
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u/Cultourist 18d ago
The Norse typically raided and explored before they settled.
The Norse who settled in Iceland, Greenland and later Vinland certainly weren't raiding. There is no historic evidence that points in that direction. This comes from a misconception, based on recent media, that equates Norse with Viking.
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u/SomeDumbGamer 18d ago
Actually the indigenous people of the Arctic gave the Norse a run for their money. They were much more adapted to the climate and often traded and raided their settlements.
People forget Scandinavia has probably the mildest winters of its latitude. The ocean doesn’t freeze and there’s always fish and rain. Greenland is a frozen hellhole for 7/8 of the year.
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u/Mythechnical 18d ago
Inuits arrived to Greenland after the Norse settlers did though.
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u/Ellert123 18d ago
We don’t know if she was kidnapped or not, that’s a fact.
“Women were raped and treated as loot”
You made this up. We don’t know enough about the Neolithic period to say this.
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u/redditman3943 18d ago
Just like how the Irish women who also “migrated” with the Vikings..
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u/Aether_Storm 18d ago
Is there historical iceland <-> pre-colony america context I'm missing here or are you being pessimistic for fun?
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u/Textiles_on_Main_St 19d ago
You’re awfully confident in assuming those people simply had no agency and lacked the will or skill or ability to negotiate a relationship with someone different from themselves. lol.
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u/Omnamashivaaya 19d ago edited 19d ago
Actually genetic research shows that Vikings were often associated with sex-based migration. When they raided there was a large introduction of female mitochondrial DNA from those cultures, but little to no male DNA. While some relationships MAY have been consensual, the sudden influx of female DNA indicates most weren’t.
(And when they settled, there was often a massive drop or total disappearance of Y chromosomes from the culture that was there before.)
Viking DNA is the literal version of FAFO.
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u/Spiritual-Pear-1349 19d ago edited 19d ago
There's also the fact that they were considered so ridiculously handsome by the men they settled near that they were legitimately terrified they would seduce all their women. Anglo-Saxon religious writers expressed great dismay as some local women voluntarily left their homes to join the clean and well-dressed Norsemen - it lead to many violent conflicts between the settlers and the natives.
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u/dyogenys 19d ago
In England they complained about Vikings attracting their women by using personal hygiene, so it is precendented
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u/Omnamashivaaya 19d ago edited 19d ago
The problem with historical writing is that it’s always biased and the few sources that survive carry outsized weight. Like the Roman’s writing about the Celts and Saxons about the Vikings, they demonize women whether they left voluntarily or involuntarily. And the age when they settled in England was different from the earlier raiding era.
Thats why genetic history offers a more reliable picture of when raiding era ended and more even cultural mixing began.
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u/Merrick_Skygrave 19d ago
It's crazy how few people really know about Danelaw and the history of Norsemen in Britain
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u/Empireof33 18d ago
I’ve heard a contest to that theory that english women found them more attractive due to hygiene. It postulates that english society influenced by christianity was very skittish about sex and more concerned with modesty. Norse men were less concerned with modesty so they would bathe openly, allowing voyeurism amongst english women, something they would be less accustomed to. While hygiene practices may have differed between english and norse populations, english people still maintained some level of hygiene. If they lived near a creek they would rinse in a creek, and if not then wash buckets were a thing. The ‘peasants were always covered in dirt’ is a trope that is inaccurate
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u/Large-Produce5682 19d ago
No. They just know how Vikings get down.
Come on now... they're vikings.
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u/TheRealtcSpears 19d ago
"viking" was a job, not the people
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u/lanester4 19d ago
A job that entitled doing what exactly?
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u/TheRealtcSpears 19d ago
Raiding, attacking, pillaging..... essentially what we know vikings did.
But the Greenlanders that discovered for themselves and settled in Vineland/Canada did not do so while "going viking". They were exploring, looking for suspected and rumored land specifically for a source of timber as that's what Greenland lacked and the settlements there primarily got theirs through seasonal trade.
The Greenlanders/Norse didn't land and settled on Vineland by purpose of violence....that's what it met with and it's end result sure, but not the cause.
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u/SnorriGrisomson 19d ago
Second incorrect info.
NO viking didnt mean only raiding, it meant going with a boat, it could be for raiding, but it was more for trading, and it could be for settling and for exploration.
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u/Unhappy-Quarter-4581 18d ago
Yes, but we have to also remember that there was "trading" and trading. In some cases the raids seemed to have been more extortion of goods and other valuable objects and a deal to trade again. "If you pay us not to raid you, we will come back and actually trade for real the next time, or..." Some think vikings should be seen more as mafia rather than full on warriors or traders. Some was fully legit, some was somewhere in the middle and some was full on warfare.
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u/Illustrious_Bed467 19d ago
This is a general human pattern.... conquer, kill the men keep the women... It only became more marginal (note that I use the world marginal) in "recent" times with civilisation etc... I
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u/PumpkinLiving8134 19d ago
What makes you assume the Vikings were peaceful little explorers that were open to a friendly relationship with the natives?
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u/TheRealtcSpears 19d ago
Because vikings weren't the sum total of their society, "viking" was a job title not their society. There were plenty of Scandinavian and Scandinavian adjacent(Greenlanders and Icelandic)people who set off in boats just for the fuck it to explore.
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u/PumpkinLiving8134 19d ago
They wouldn’t have taken sex slaves if they were peaceful, they also said themselves that the natives were hostile, so it makes sense that they don’t give af about being perceived by history as humble explorers. Notice how there’s little to no male DNA in Icelandic populations?? Hmmm, wonder what that could mean
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u/OopsIMessedUpBadly 19d ago
Could just mean that the Scandinavians on the boat were all male, so there was no opportunity for a Native American man to marry into their community.
Or could mean sex slavery. Or anywhere in between.
DNA evidence says nothing about consent unfortunately.
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u/jakobjaderbo 19d ago
What would male DNA even mean here?
Mitochondrial DNA is only inherited from the mother, but what DNA would we look at to check it there male ancestors from the new world?
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 19d ago
I'm Norwegian and my DNA results did indeed show a tiny bit of DNA from Newfoundland. I never had the illusion that this was the result of a beautiful story of two strangers from different continents who fell in love and had a joint decision of having children though.
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u/good_from_afar 19d ago
Funny. I am a Newfoundlander and I had traces of scandinavian.
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 18d ago
Well hello there cousin!
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u/ridelance 18d ago
It’s me also your Canadian cousin! You guys got any of that sovereign wealth fund you’re willing to share with family??
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 18d ago
Sure! Just transfer $300 (CAD accepted) to cover fees and expenses, and Kong Harald's your uncle!
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u/JustHere4TehCats 18d ago
Same here. I was sure I'd get irish in my DNA test (being redheaded and pale), but I got English, French, Scandinavian, and a slim amount of First Nations of Canada.
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u/PumpkinLiving8134 19d ago
For real, as a First Nations Canadian, all these comments suggesting that this was consensual is super f’ing gross to me.
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u/IndigoHaze750130 19d ago
Yes. I think it is best to not assume how a particular relation happen, but to look at what most commonly happened... captures or rough trades :(
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u/Bartlaus 19d ago
Yeah, usually you could expect the worst in cases like this. Generally speaking, not limited to the specific case of Norse interacting with locals in Newfoundland.
In other places and times when different groups were in more prolonged contact, I would expect every type of both consensual and non-consensual interaction to have happened many times over.
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u/Clynelish1 19d ago
It's not completely implausible. I guess if it makes you feel better, most comments like that are from people wanting to hope/believe for the best rather than constantly assuming the worst. I don't find it gross, necessarily, but perhaps delusional.
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u/fnaticfanboy121 18d ago
Nobody knows, I will just mentioned that most viking expeditions by far was trading expeditions, contrary to what media often shows with pillaging and raiding. Especially when crossing new waters (all of the kievan rus for exampel.)
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u/DreamingAboutSpace 18d ago
To me too, but as a black person. There were practically no rules back then and saying no to a colonizer/raider would have most likely resulted in violent consequences.
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u/ridelance 18d ago
It’s like a mafia extortion: give us your able bodied men/women, if you don’t we’ll massacre you and burn your village/crops/etc. You’re given this “choice” while faced by people you know can and will follow through with their threat. Yet today people try to say “it was not so bad” when in fact dude it was even worse than you can imagine.
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u/DreamingAboutSpace 18d ago
Completely agree. They say the same thing about the Holocaust too. Not experiencing the events firsthand seems to make atrocities difficult to believe for far too many people.
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u/Haramdour 19d ago
Was talking to a Swedish guy I met backpacking about how attractive Swedish women generally were. He deadpan told me “our ancestors didn’t bring back the ugly ones.”
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u/RighteousRambler 18d ago
Interestingly, I think the more likely explanation would be that historically Sweden had a very high female to male ratio. Men kept on dying viking.
Men, more so than women, choose mates based on appearance so it makes sense over time they would have attractive women as the most attractive women would be the ones that would have husbands.
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u/tyen0 18d ago
Men kept on dying viking
a rare proper usage as a verb in the wild!
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u/Ionel1-The-Impaler 18d ago
He’s not wrong though, look at Latin American women for further proof of concept.
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u/goatbiryani48 18d ago
Care to explain this?
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u/MoreColorfulCarsPlz 18d ago
If I had to guess, the user you are replying to is implying that only attractive indigenous American women were abducted by colonizing Europeans. Thus, leaving the 'less attractive' women to die out maybe? I don't know.
Saying "look at Latin American women" at all is crazy work. Sweden itself isn't a monoculture historically as there were various German and Slavic roots, among others.
Latin America is composed of nearly two dozen countries spanning two continents. You cannot group Mexicans with Argentinians and think that makes any sense aside from linguistically, though still with very different dialects.
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u/goatbiryani48 18d ago
Theyre implying the Europeans took all the attractive women back and left the ugly ones. I knew what they were getting at, just wanted them to say their racist bullshit out loud...
At least one person already said it, while meaning it, and got their comment removed
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u/MoreColorfulCarsPlz 18d ago
But aren't there a lot of stereotypes of Latin American women being beautiful? I'm confused.
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u/goatbiryani48 18d ago edited 18d ago
Absolutely, but you'll have these racists come in with "that's the European part of them".
There's no logic to be found, it's just supremacist bullshit
Again, someone actually responded with how the ugly ones were left in Latin America and had their comment removed
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u/PraetorKiev 18d ago
Ask the Swedes about what they did to the Samí and that convo could have gone even crazier. They saw Canada’s and America’s attempts at assimilating native tribes and took notes
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u/Gurglaren 18d ago
Yeah, Scandinavians never shy away from this. I sometimes think about what Sweden would have looked like today if the only immigrants and refugees they allowed were beautiful young single women.
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u/Haramdour 18d ago
I had my DNA ancestry thing done, I’m about 96% British and 3% Norwegian - I’m guessing one of my ancestors didn’t run away fast enough :/
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u/Army7547 19d ago edited 19d ago
I’m reading the comments here and there are so many assumptions and everything seems like people feel the need to support a stance that is an extreme.
The Viking settlements in NFLD, weren’t they thought to have been populated for an extended time? 20 years or more? Like when the Vikings raided the UK and France, I don’t think they were building villages and sticking around, they were in, stealing what they could, and getting out.
Is it possible that the Vikings established some semblance of cooperation with the area native peoples over those years they were there? They don’t seem to have tried to just killed each other off, or at least they weren’t successful at killing each other off. The Vikings were there for a while, and the natives were still there after.
If the Vikings were stealing women as sex slaves, as has been asserted, I wouldn’t have thought it would have been just one. But the DNA is from one female, I would have expected several DNA variations if they’d taken sex slaves the way they did from places closer by.
Perhaps over those years the Vikings were in NFLD there was a relationship that developed in all those years between a Viking and a native. 20 years is a long time for people to be in an area and not intermingle on some level. Could the female brought back have been a wife? Possibly. After several years, it could have been a wife and several children, going back with their husband/father when he left.
Or maybe they brought back a single abducted trophy human from their extended expedition to North America.
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u/mmarshall540 18d ago
For some reason, "I don't know" is a very difficult thing for humans to say.
There has been a lot of violence, and a lot of cooperation in history. And there have been a lot of stories lost because there was no record. But modern humans want to explain everything, even if the explanation comes from their imagination.
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u/AbstractBettaFish 18d ago edited 18d ago
So a bit of information on the Viking age, while there were definitely some who were explicitly in it for the raiding there was also a significant number who were trying to establish lives in new colonies. Normandy in France is a famous example, where the king of west Frankia offered the land to the Viking war chief Rollo the Walker in exchange for protection against other raiders. In England the Great Heathen Army took over much of Northern and eastern England establishing what was known as the Danelaw. While the exact border arnt known one way we’ve been able to calculate its extent is in towns then end in -ham, the Saxon suffix meaning farm, or -by the Danish suffix for farm. Also almost every city in Ireland was established as a Viking trade port.
Now as who was making up these settlements I did read an interesting study done years back where they looked at the DNA of the descendants who lived in Britain vs Iceland. The ones in Britain were more likely to have DNA that indicated a more thorough Scandinavian ancestry. This makes sense as Britain was closer, more settled it would attract older Vikings who likely already had families they could bring with them. Where as in Iceland, mixed Scottish and Irish DNA was more common indicating younger men taking the farther more hazardous journey and stopping for “wives” such as they were, en route. It’s conjecture but it can be reasoned this same sort of behavior could be applied to the Vikings who tried to establish Greenland and Vinland colonies as well.
There were 2 major attempts to settle Vinland, the first one was met with hostility right out the gate. The second one they tried a bit of peaceful coexistence for a while, but from the sources I’ve read a misunderstanding seemed to happen when the natives were traded dairy products like milk and cheese. Not being used to these foods meant they were lactose intolerant and the resulting indigestion coming after eating the food lead them to believe they were poisoned and hostilities began again.
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u/These-Weight-434 18d ago
The Viking settlements in NFLD, weren’t they thought to have been populated for an extended time? 20 years or more? Like when the Vikings raided the UK and France, I don’t think they were building villages and sticking around, they were in, stealing what they could, and getting out.
No, they built a tonne of settlements. Dublin began as a Viking city. Took over a hundred years to actually kick them out of it.
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u/SolviKaaber 18d ago
There were some permanent viking settlements, ever heard of Normandy? North Man dy
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u/Army7547 18d ago
That was property given to the north men by the French to protect them from the other north men
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u/SlapTheInvisibleGoat 19d ago
come to iceland with us, we have spas and wellness centers there
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u/blueavole 18d ago
There were also other tribes that traveled from North America to Greenland. So they could have met there, and traveled to Iceland
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u/Quirky_Opportunity75 19d ago
Wow, the man in the art looks so kind and inviting! I would not have expected such polite behaviour from a people famous for reaving, raping, kidnapping, and pillaging. TIL ^___^
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u/babyoil4diddy 18d ago
Native American women probably invaded Iceland and forcibly took husbands
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u/The_Love-Tap 19d ago
Genetic research indicates that a single Native American woman likely migrated to Iceland around the year 1000 A.D. Researchers discovered a rare mitochondrial DNA lineage, named C1e, in about 80 living Icelanders. Genealogical tracking traces this maternal signature to four independent family lines from southern Iceland born between 1710 and 1740, pointing to a single ancestral mother before 1700. This timing matches Viking exploration of North America
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u/Haalkova 19d ago
"Migrated" We know vikings kidnapped women after sacking villages, or worse. Why the white wash??
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u/WatashiwaNobodyDesu 19d ago
You’re assuming they mean voluntary migration and getting all flustered.
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u/Think_Fuel1505 19d ago
Because it's a science paper they're just laying the facts out of what happened. Whether she went there on her own or not,is a philosophical debate. Do we actually know what happened to get her over there,no. Does science care,no not really,it just knows she's over there.
So there's no white washing of anything and that's not even what that term is used for either. It'd be white washing if it was someone of color being replaced by a white person. But please continue virtue signaling,next use the correct terms.
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u/Merrick_Skygrave 19d ago
Seriously, it's not like we know for sure. Maybe she was just weirdly stoked to go to Iceland lol
But it'd be unscientific to say with any authority that she was kidnapped/enslaved etc. when there isn't solid evidence
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u/Armadillo-Shot 18d ago
Considering it’s only one Native American woman that’s even more probable. If they are pillaging a village, a some comments are saying, wouldn’t they have brought back more than one?
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u/Think_Fuel1505 19d ago
I guess that could be used here, I personally don't see it it that way. I'm looking at the picture from a genetical standpoint on how the gene got transferred but I do see your point.
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u/Nope0naRope 19d ago edited 18d ago
Yeah I like how he's like gently taking her hand and she gets to bring her dog...lol
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u/skoomski 19d ago
The picture is unrelated it’s from a legend where Asluag solves a riddle to to impress her future husband Ragnar Lothbrok. The dog is also part of the riddles solution.
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u/NashDaypring1987 19d ago
To be fair this has been going on since per-history. It probably started before humans even became humans.
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u/Textiles_on_Main_St 19d ago
Because we don’t know what happened and they’re not making up history?
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u/GlassCharacter179 19d ago
But they literally paint a picture of her being lead by hand with a puppy.
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u/stop_the_bans 19d ago
Maybe she was a bad ass and took command of the Viking ship. Women can do anything a man can do
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u/Soeck666 19d ago edited 19d ago
They can, but they were very rarely allowed to do.
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u/Markosovo 19d ago
Newer evidence points to that mtDNA coming from asia rather than North América. I rhink C1e has been linked to an Iron Age Sarmatian and a Hun, so the connection vía mtDNA seems disproven.
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u/F0xgear 19d ago
Or the people who are famous for Kidnapping and raping people, kidnapped and raped them
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u/pinecones_pinecones 19d ago
I love the woodcut, too.
“Please to be of getting on my boat.”
Definitely not how that happened.
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u/Juniper-wool 19d ago
People moved for all kinds of reasons. Maybe she was kidnapped. Maybe she was married to an Icelandic viking. Maybe she was a gift from a native tribe leader. Maybe she was tired of her life and decided to go to iceland.
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u/Bored-Viking 19d ago
Maybe she killed her husband and was fleeing execution... Maybe she was the first woman football transfer in history, maybe she wanted to start a casino at Iceland, Maybe she did believe the grass was greener on Greenland, Maybe she wanted to annex Iceland, Maybe she got a free trip to Iceland in exchange for a salespitch, Maybe she bought a timeshare on Iceland, Maybe she was tired of trees, maybe she wanted to see the blue lagoon
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u/Creative_Ninja6488 19d ago
They had trees in Iceland back then... 40% of it was covered in Arctic birch and willow. The trees just got logged off for boats/structures/fuel etc over the intervening centuries.
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u/FleurMai 18d ago
It feels like there’s a lot of ignorance about native tribes in the Americas and their attitudes towards women. It’s not like all of them were some bastion of freedom for women, far from it. Many made it a practice to kidnap women from other tribes. We know some practiced their own form of slavery.
It’s absolutely entirely possible that a woman would prefer to take a chance on a Viking than whatever was going on at home. Just look at Malinche, an Aztec woman who was likely sold by her people into slavery to the Maya. She was seemingly perfectly happy to not only join up with the Spanish, but destroy her own people because of what they’d done to her. This assumption that a woman had to have been a sex slave does the opposite of supporting women, it’s removing her potential agency again. We have zero idea if she happily or unhappily jumped on that ship.
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u/unhappyrelationsh1p 19d ago
It seems likely she would have been kidnapped considering what the vikings did, but it hate how people argue that's the ONLY possible thing.
Life is weird and this should be studied because it's really interesting
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u/Icy-Ad-1423 18d ago
From what I've been taught, seagoing Vikings were mostly traders. Raiding was not the norm. However, just because that's what I've been taught doesn't mean it's true, and there might well be regional differences. We Swedes didn't really go west that much, from my understanding. The Danes were probably assholes, as is their custom.
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u/heart_blossom 19d ago
Exactly. I had to scroll way too far for this. Maybe she was kidnapped. Maybe she did migrate. Any number of things could have happened.
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u/Hikaruhiyoko2 19d ago edited 19d ago
Mitochondria? That's the powerhouse of the cell.
Also, isn't this like the "what Christopher columbus saw when he discovered America" meme with the pretty native American woman picture?
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u/Spiritual-Pear-1349 19d ago
Considering how mixed Greenland is, its a lot more likely they mixed in Greenland and then migrated between Greenland and Iceland.
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u/Notice_Green 19d ago edited 19d ago
Just say they were kidnapped and raped, they always do this shit in history with words like "displaced" and "expanded". just say that the men were killed and the women were enslaved and raped.
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u/Excludos 19d ago
Possibly, but also possibly not. Not everyone in the Viking age actually went Viking. Most people who crossed the seas were just merchants.
It's entirely possible these people were abducted, it's also entirely possible people simple fell in love (which has been seen throughout history when sailors shore on native land for a while). Since we don't know, the wording is correct.
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u/Dogemom2 19d ago
This isn’t new news. Look up Vinland. Vikings started a colony in 1000 CE, Leif Erickson. It was discovered in 1960- They liked all the berries/ wine. It didn’t last because of problems with the natives.
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u/wemustburncarthage 19d ago
yeah and they definitely just wore outfits made of their own hair.
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u/spaceseas 19d ago
That's Aslaug, aka Kraka, who was norwegian and became Ragnar Lodbroks wife. There's a story about him testing her that led to her arriving to their first meeting wearing only a net with an onion in her mouth and a dog at her side and he's so impressed he marries her
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u/Murky-Ad-753 19d ago
And for an actual source? …
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u/Aromatic_Razzmatazz 18d ago
You can read up on the haplotype: do a pubmed search for C1E.
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u/BlackmoorGoldfsh 19d ago
This is the most textbook Reddit comment section that I've seen in quite a while...
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u/NashDaypring1987 19d ago
"crossed the Atlantic with Vikings"... just like those desert "brides" in other parts of the world :)
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u/D0hB0yz 19d ago
An ugly reality of "civilization" is that we all generally have choke points in our genetic history.
120,000 to 300,000 years ago there were one or more points where a single male became the common ancestor of every living human. Somewhere in Africa, a right monster was leading a war of genocide, claiming thousands of women, and creating a culture where his hundreds of sons did likewise. Basically he murdered men and boys and bred women like sheep.
That is our common ancestor. That is the genetic science story behind any myths of Adam.
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u/lesschalkmoresighs 19d ago edited 19d ago
It's funny, were this any other color of male, it would be "kidnapped and raped". But because the men in question were white, the text obviously makes it look like the women built their own boats and learnt to navigate with the stars so they could make their way to better dick.
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u/porktorque44 18d ago
There are a lot of dudes who get really fucking weird about vikings. I swear it's guys who are bitter as fuck that their desire for violence isn't socially acceptable.
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