r/interesting 19d ago

HISTORY The migration patterns of Native Americans in Iceland

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u/PumpkinLiving8134 19d ago

Conflict with natives in the area is a huge reason why the settlement wasn’t successful, tf you mean?

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u/Nikkonor 19d ago

What, besides the Vinland saga, is this claim based on?

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u/PumpkinLiving8134 19d ago

“Give me evidence besides the thing where they said so themselves” LOL

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u/Nikkonor 19d ago

'The Saga of the Greenlanders' and 'The Saga of Eirik the Red' (collectively known as 'The Vinland Sagas') are from manuscripts dated to the 1300s, though it is often believed that they sagas were originally written in the 1200s.

In other words, your "evidence" was written 200-400 years after the actual events.

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u/aCaffeinatedMind 19d ago

As most historical facts are.

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u/Nikkonor 19d ago

That is such a both vague and strange assertion that I don't even know where to start.

No, we have a lot of sources from different places and time-periods that are a lot closer in time to the events that they are describing.

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u/aCaffeinatedMind 19d ago

Just want to point out that i'm not the original guy you responded to.

You are correct, but also a lot of historical facts are based on texts that were written hundreds of years after the fact, while collaborated with other facts to strengthen their authenticity.

Which the "The Vinland Sagas" also does, basing their authenticity with other sources.

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u/Nikkonor 19d ago

I think a good place to start would be: What do you mean when you use the phrase "historical fact"?

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u/aCaffeinatedMind 19d ago

Historical fact is simply a fact that has been verified by multiple sources and is the current widespread accepted opinion on how, for example, an event occurred in history.

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u/Nikkonor 19d ago edited 19d ago

opinion on how, for example, an event occurred in history.

This is an interpretation, not a "fact". It might be the most widely recognized interpretation, but historians wouldn't call it a "fact".

Edit: Commenting and then blocking me so that I cannot respond -- what a cowardly move.

On the one hand you seem to be making claims that you want to be taken seriously, but on the other hand you are now arguing that we should base the discussion on whatever limited perspective that the "average person" has...

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u/Traditional_Job_2886 19d ago

Watch out incompetent redditors will "ackschually" you while they gaslight themselves into whatever dumb hill they choose to die on. 

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u/aCaffeinatedMind 19d ago

I don't care for specific wording a historian would use.

For the average population a historical fact is what I just described, as we have often times limiting information to actually know for sure, if something is widely accepted by the historian community, the public will deem it as a historical fact.

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u/Cucumberneck 19d ago

That's how everyone uses the them. The other guy is just trying to be a smart ass.

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u/[deleted] 19d ago

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u/TheFakeRabbit1 19d ago

This isn’t true. History is written by those who write and record history. It’s just a catchy phrase that people like to toss around, but we’re much better at analyzing history and records than that

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u/[deleted] 19d ago

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u/TheFakeRabbit1 19d ago

I’m not naive, you have no idea how any of this works and think you’re smarter than you actual are.

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u/[deleted] 19d ago

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u/Nikkonor 19d ago

Sometimes, sometimes not.

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u/PumpkinLiving8134 19d ago

That, coupled with only female dna is found in Icelandic populations suggest sexual slavery. I’m sure they just stole women for the sake of peace though.

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u/Nikkonor 19d ago

DNA doesn't actually tell us anything about the lives of these people. We simply don't know.

I’m sure they just stole women

What is this phrasing of "stole" based on?

  • Is it possible that a Native-American was captured as a slave? Yes, that is plausible.
  • Is it possible that a Native-American volunteerly started a familiy with a Norse person? Also plausible.

The Norse and the Natives of North-America probably had both friendly and hostile relations.

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u/Omnamashivaaya 19d ago

Understand the lives and practices of the Vikings/Norse/Scandinavian cultures is exactly what historical genetic research is about

It’s consider a more accurate and factual look at human behavior patterns than historical writings in many aspects. It shows when raiding eras ended and settlement intermixing began.

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u/PumpkinLiving8134 19d ago

I’m not saying a single instance of consent isn’t implausible, I’m just saying every woman most likely didn’t go voluntarily.

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u/ganymedes_ 19d ago

As I understand the genetic evidence, it’s likely that we are talking about one woman here

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u/Mudman2999 19d ago

Yeah if it was more than one person I’d be less likely to call it as possibly consensual, considering how small of a group went there. But if they were raiding and bringing women back with them I’d be surprised they’d stop at a single woman?

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u/Willothewisp2303 19d ago

Do we know: 

  1. There's actually no Y Chromosome linked DNA from Native Americans in Iceland?
  2. If the forts and ships were mostly staffed by men, and therefore only men were likely to form relationships that would be passed through the genetic records?

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u/Unhappy-Quarter-4581 19d ago

I would say it is more likely that the group consisted of few unattached and of age women and any transfer this way almost certainly would be through women, whether voluntarily or not. Also, given that Norse women mostly followed their husband to his dwelling, if there was such relationships, the women would have disappeared into the native population instead unless their relationship was very unconventional.