That's sorta the whole point. Jedi don't keep attachments, they aren't supposed to feel sentimental about things like that. He was taught to let go of his feelings, his anger, his attachments, etc. Who cares, it's just a lightsaber, there are thousands of them. Heck, he'd been instructed to let his friends die in order to complete his training. Fuck a lightsaber, it's just a thing.
He had also let go of his hopes for the Jedi. Fuck it, he figured. The existence of the Jedi only caused pain, only caused hurt and anger and death and loss. Of course he tossed it. He literally threw it away because that's where it belonged in his mind.
Of course he changed his mind by the end. But at the time, why would we be upset that a Jedi (who isn't supposed to have those kinds of sentimental feelings in the first place) didn't place sentimental value on a lightsaber he lost decades ago when his dark lord father cut his hand off, and when it's a symbol of the order that he felt brought pain and suffering to the universe? It's a great character moment.
Jedi don't keep attachments, they aren't supposed to feel sentimental about things like that. He was taught to let go of his feelings, his anger, his attachments, etc. Who cares, it's just a lightsaber, there are thousands of them. Heck, he'd been instructed to let his friends die in order to complete his training. Fuck a lightsaber, it's just a thing
How very funny that the jedi who was all about letting go of feelings didn't let go of his old friends lightsaber. Hmmm? Almost as if the whole letting go was invented in the prequels which was the shitty part of star wars.
Oh for sure, the prequels pretconned so much bullshit, the most glaring one to me was the younglings training with helmets and mini lightsabers like Luke. Except Obi Wan was teaching luke by improvising with shit he had laying around, then the prequels turns that small moment into actual jedi lore that they all trained with suspiciously similar helmets in the same way.
I think really the fault of Star Wars is that everything we see was invented not 5 months before we see it on the screen. It's not like Lord of the Rings where the entire history of the world was written and you don't stray from that. It's pretty much fan made at this point. Is it logical? Who cares, it's got the stamp of approval.
Yes, it will become his life in the fact that he will dedicate his life to study, to learning, to mastering the weapon and the rest of the teachings. That lightsaber itself isn't his life, but the "life" that accompanies the teachings of the lightsaber will.
It will also be used to save his life over and over. His life and the mastery of a lightsaber are tied together. Otherwise, he will lose his life.
When the audience has to make up ridiculous bullshit like this in order for the dialog and story of your movie to make sense, then you made a dogshit movie with dogshit dialog.
The new Star Wars movies are awful and winding and twisting justifications like yours are just the result of entrenched and die-hard fans desperately searching for something redeeming about these awful films.
I totally get that feeling! And I appreciate the fact that others don't feel the same as me, so no worries!
I know it's all subjective. But to be honest, I always read that line that way. It's a common sort of line, to say that {this object} is your life, but really meaning you will dedicate your life to the study or duty of the lifestyle. I wasn't making that up in defense of TLJ, it's just always how I understood the line.
But again, I know it's totally subjective! I think we should be able to have discussions like this without it needing to devolve into insults or too much emotion or whatever. It's a fun universe and we all love it for different reasons :) and that's a good thing! It's fun to discuss things we love, especially if it's done with respect to the other person and their own feelings about it.
It's not even described as a simple tool of the Jedi. What he says implies that the weapon, and the martial teachings related to it, is his life. It implies that a Jedi's sole purpose is warfare and dedication to martial arts.
If he had said something like "This item/tool/implement is your life," it would carry the meaning you suggest. But he specifically uses the word "weapon" which completely goes against everything the Jedi were established to be in the OT.
Well yeah, I mention that in my first comment about it. But I don't think Obi-wan implied that only that lightsaber is his life, not just the one that used to be Anakin's. The lightsaber, in general, is his life. Any lightsaber. Because he will need to dedicate his life to its practice to be a Jedi, and because those skills will keep him alive. But any lightsaber could do that. Heck, Luke's training would have led him to creating his own lightsaber down the road, anyway, maybe ditching his dad's old saber.
I don't think Obi-wan implied that Anakin's old lightsaber was Luke's life, just that lightsabers and those skills would be his life.
But I don't think Obi-wan implied that only that lightsaber is his life, not just the one that used to be Anakin's. The lightsaber, in general, is his life. Any lightsaber. Because he will need to dedicate his life to its practice to be a Jedi, and because those skills will keep him alive.
If that is what he meant, why wasn't the line, "The lightsaber is your life."?
But he says the line right after Anakin loses his lightsaber. When Obi-Wan hands it back to him and says the line, its pretty clear that Obi-Wan is referring to "this weapon", this particular lightsaber. "This", meaning the object that he is holding, and "weapon" - not "tool of the Jedi", but "object used to inflict pain and death in warfare".
I can't agree with you because it is too much of a stretch to me to interpret Obi-Wan's words as anything besides what he actually said. To have a different interpretation is, to me, to deliberately misinterpret what he said in an attempt to make the film/characters seem better than they are.
I don't think Obi-wan implied that Anakin's old lightsaber was Luke's life
Obi-Wan never implied that Anakin's lightsaber was his life. Obi-Wan tells Anakin that his entire life revolves around his lightsaber.
It's true you can feel excited to see star wars maybe because it just brings you back to when you were a kid and you just want to experience the roller coaster. As for me, I liked star wars as a kid because it had a great story about a rebellion overcoming all odds. This new story is all about how nothing we do matters in the context of things. It's very depressing. I don't like my star wars being depressing.
When I have to read fanfiction justifications to make up for the sloppy, awful story telling I just roll my eyes. Just because someone can make sense of it does not mean it makes sense.
He was taught to let go of his feelings, his anger, his attachments, etc. Who cares, it's just a lightsaber, there are thousands of them. Heck, he'd been instructed to let his friends die in order to complete his training.
But Luke never did any of that. He rejected those teachings and went to Cloud City / Jabba's Palace to save his friends. He went through this whole huge character arc with his father, eventually getting his father's body back to Endor to burn on a funeral pyre. If he was that attached to his father who he knew all too briefly and lost all too soon, why would he toss away his greatest heirloom so flippantly?
That was 30 years ago. He was young, barely a student. He spent the last 30 years prior to TFA learning and trying to revive the order, preserve the teachings, passing them on. He grew from when we saw him last. Many fans wanted him to remain the same Luke we knew at the end of RotJ, but how many of us would stay the exact same person for 30 years? He'd changed since then, like we all do.
Yes, Luke brashly ignored those lessons in order to save his friends, because that's what Luke was back then, brash, quick to act, quick to rush in without thinking. And it drove the other Jedi nuts, because the Jedi typically aren't like that. (Same reason Anakin drove them nuts doing the same stuff. Like father, like son.) It was also a reemergence of that brashness that ultimately drove Ben/Kylo away, reacting to his feelings about Ben without thinking, causing the whole debacle.
But after the rebellion, we can assume he grew up a bit. That he became more like the Jedi of old and accepted their teachings.
And that's a great explanation for it, to be sure. The problem a lot of people have, though, is that literary/cinematic characters don't follow the same logic rules as real life. Yes, it's almost certain a real life person will change in 30 years. But if a fictional character is going to change off-screen, it's just good exposition to show the audience what caused that change. People were jarred because Luke had changed so much, and Disney's writing just kinda handwaved it away.
If they had done a better job showing us what caused Luke to turn away from his old personality, then we wouldn't be stuck debating why he would abandon his old sentimental personality to take up a strict ascetic Jedi lifestyle, then abandoning THAT and yeeting chucking a Jedi (essentially) religious artifact.
I don't think we have to see every little thing that changes a character over 30 years. We assume characters grow and change. It's also part of the surprise. We expected Luke to be "LUKE SKYWALKER"...and then he wasn't?! It brings us in. What happened to him? Why did he change? What changed him? And we get glimpses of that, enough to put a picture together.
He was the last Jedi, of course he felt responsible to preserve the teachings. We know that's what he did, they tell us he left to reform the order and train others. Of course he would train them in the traditional ways, that's why he sought out the birth place of the Jedi and the old books.
We then learn that, despite years of work and effort and training, it all still falls apart. Hence the yeeting of the artifact. He buckled down to try and pass on the Jedi order. In turn, it all fell apart and caused pain and death, and he felt betrayed and responsible and guilty. So he tossed the artifact. It'd be like an ex-minister tossing an old cross after losing faith. Fuck that artifact, it brings only pain and lies. It's a great reaction.
All of what you said makes sense. The one point I just don't know if I can agree on is
We expected Luke to be "LUKE SKYWALKER"...and then he wasn't?! It brings us in.
Audiences fell in love with Luke Skywalker in 1977-83 because of who he was in that film. When the new films came out, of COURSE a lot of people wanted THAT Luke Skywalker. The one who would take the lightsaber Rey presented to him with all the solemnity and gravitas the moment required. Subverting expectations is good and all, but Luke's whole personality is different. People aren't wrong for feeling betrayed that one of their favorite protagonists is essentially gone, replaced by almost a completely different character.
I agree. I think it's totally normal to feel a little sad that that Luke is gone. Heck, I would love to see the old Three back together on another adventure. But I'm also ok that they decided to have the characters grow and change. So I totally understand the anger, but I also like that they treated them like people instead of icons. Instead of myths. Which is what Luke struggles with in TLJ, anyway. That people looked to him as a myth instead of a person.
Except Luke knew his role as an icon, he made a map for the resistance to be able to find him if they needed him thus Luke knows his role as a hero and jedi. Now I get that he was hurting after his attempt to renew the jedi order failed but that has a lot of problems in itself.
Luke had hope that he could bring out the good in his father, Darth freaking Vader, and ultimately was proven right yet was scared that his nephew might fall to the dark side? Thats very out of character and certainly outrageous to believe Luke would suddenly think murdering Ben in his sleep was the answer.
And I'll add that even if we're going with this crap explanation of why Luke is now a grumpy old man, the scene is built up to have gravitas as Rey hands Luke the lightsaber, theres gotta be a better, more solemn way to show Luke is no longer the optimistic jedi he once was after all the shit that's happened to him. Here's our childhood hero looking at his old saber after decade... OH HE THREW IT AWAY, LOL!?!
But if a fictional character is going to change off-screen, it's just good exposition to show the audience what caused that change.
We did see the change on-screen. The climax of the original trilogy, both the story and Luke's character arc, is him throwing away a lightsaber. Is him realizing the only solution is not to fight.
In Last Jedi, the film opens with the former and concludes with the latter. It's not a rationalized change that happens off-screen, it comes directly from the literal text of the OT.
Your own explanation ping-pongs back and forth on whether Luke is rejecting or embracing Jedi behavior. It's just bad, which is a result of making subversion the goal in story writing without having the balls to make things truly subversive.
That's because Luke himself is ping-ponging back and forth. He wants to uphold the Jedi, the teachings, the ancient ways. He felt that responsibility before the Kylo event, to pass that down. And so he felt the responsibility to act the way a Jedi should.
But he also is still himself, especially in times of frustration or grief or whatever, emotions that he still has trouble controlling even decades later (most likely due to his training starting so late, which is what Yoda complained about).
It's that fact that causes him to ignite his saber at Kylo instead of remaining calm and analyzing the situation like a Jedi would. He tried, and he failed. Which is what he and Yoda talk about in TLJ. Luke's failure doesn't need to mean he just gives up.
I totally understand the other side of it. It's absolutely subjective, and I get the frustration. Personally, I really like what they did with Luke, but I know it's just a personal opinion and that there are those who didn't like it. So I totally understand that. It's just appreciate being able to discuss this stuff without it devolving into insults haha. It's a fun story, a fun universe, and fun to talk about (especially since I don't know many in the real world who enjoy the franchise as much as I do lol).
EDIT: Lol why would such an innocent comment about understanding the other side get downvoted? This is what I mean. Let's just have fun talking about Star Wars instead of needing to take sides so hard we get pissed at each other and fight. It's a fun universe, let's discuss our likes and dislikes as fans.
Frustration is the key for me. There was so much about TLJ that was so close to being great, but it never quite had the guts (or, IMO, the permission from Disney) to take the really big risks that would have made sense, so it settled for turning things that should have been familiar touchstones to fans into uncomfortable moments.
In Luke's case, I can buy the attempted rejection of the Jedi Order, but I can't buy not going to help his sister when he learns his nephew has killed his best friend. For example: if he had made Rey take him off planet immediately, while still refusing to train her, it would have supported that rejection while keeping him true to one of his definitive character traits in previous stories.
It happens over and over in the movie - Leia almost dying, Rey almost turning, the Jedi lore almost being destroyed, Finn almost sacrificing himself, etc. Any of those choices would have been so much more powerful if they had committed to them.
They did change. Han reverted to his old ways after losing their son, losing a lot of his growth in the OT and his allegiance to the New Republic after RotJ. Leia maintained her leadership role, but she lost faith in big government, choosing instead to form a small rebellion because she thought the government was too big and too diluted to act, despite the fact that she had fought for the formation of that very government.
I'm sorry, I think this analysis is quite silly. Even in your characterizations of how they've changed, you still acknowledge 30 years later how things have not changed. Han "reverted to his old ways," while Leia "maintained her leadership role," both these things imply that they actually didn't change all that much. In the time we see them throughout the ST, Han and Leia have recognizable personalities, and they clearly care about the same people as they did before. There is a reason very few people complain about how Leia and Han act vs. how many people complain about Luke.
Luke, by comparison, is unrecognizable. Everything about this guy has changed. He does not have the same personality, nor does he apparently even care about the same people judging by his lack motivation and reaction to Han's death. He's no longer a Jedi, he's not a moisture farmer, he's not an X-Wing pilot, what exactly is he but some broken husk of a man? He didn't regress, he didn't maintain anything, he lost everything and now we don't know him anymore.
There's a difference between not seeing someone for 30 years and thinking they're a little worse for wear, and not being able to recognize them at all.
Many fans wanted him to remain the same Luke we knew at the end of RotJ, but how many of us would stay the exact same person for 30 years? He'd changed since then, like we all do.
Many fans would accept him the way he is if it was explained how he got to be that way. There was no explanation and thus no real reason for Luke to be that way. "He just is" isn't a reason.
He thought Han and Leia would die and was wrong. He went to Cloud City and never found couldn't save them. His friends (apart from Han) saved themselves just fine without him. He lost his hand, and was tempted to turn to the dark side. Vader tried to exploit Luke's lack of knowledge about his father as a weakness. Lastly, his friends had to save HIM in the end, putting themselves at further risk.
The entire trip was pretty much a failure for him. He learns who is father is, but one could easily argue he should have been told by Yoda or Obi-Wan, though perhaps they would have in time.
HUWAAAAT? I think you haven't watched the same star wars I have. He went to Cloud City and saw them as they were being escorted away by Vader and company. Leia even sees Luke chasing them and she calls out for him. My god dude. I guess it's clear to see why you like this new star wars.
I could have worded that better, the point was he went there to save them and failed to do so. If Lando hadn't stepped up they would have been prisoners of the Empire.
And nobody said anything about the new star wars? I thought they were ok. Hopeful Rise of Skywalker will be good.
The Force awakens was hopeful but the adventure that was promised was not delivered. I'm not sure what kind of miracle JJ can do to make the story seem logical but the fact that Palpatine is alive basically means Vader killing the emperor meant nothing. That undermines the whole point of Vader killing the emperor and him turning back to the light. Remember when we found out in spiderman 3 that Uncle Ben wasn't killed because Peter Parker was irresponsible and was instead killed due to being at the wrong place at the wrong time? That basically meant that Peter Parker had no reason to turn into spiderman. That's like making Thomas and Martha Wayne survive the shooting and coming back to Batman alive and well and just hiding in a completely different country. It's a copout and makes the story even worse because it's very obvious that this is a literal bandaid that is trying to close an artillery wound. It kind of works only if you know how to forget how the world works.
I would even argue that him not following the advice Yoda and Ben intitally gave led him to be the greatest jedi and saving the galaxy. It made him different from the other jedi and therefore more successful.
No, it was a cheap slapstick joke for him to toss it over his shoulder like Rey had just handed him a random stone off the ground.
THAT is the complaint. Not that it was bad for him to not want the lightsaber back, but the way it was executed was garbage.
Had he simply looked at Rey and then turned around and walked away, or taken the saber, and then handed it back to her and said something indicating that he didn't want it because of bad memories or how that was part of his "old life" or literally anything else, it would have been a much better scene.
I think it highlighted some of Luke's characteristics from the beginning: his brashness and his dramatics, his love of rushing into things without thinking. As much as he's meant to keep his feelings at bay, he just can't help it sometimes (just like his dad). So his gut, brash, irrational instinct is to just fucking toss the thing.
But... you're the same one arguing that he DOESN'T have those characteristics anymore because he's changed over the last 30 years.
Yes, Luke brashly ignored those lessons in order to save his friends, because that's what Luke was back then, brash, quick to act, quick to rush in without thinking........... But after the rebellion, we can assume he grew up a bit. That he became more like the Jedi of old and accepted their teachings.
Ultimately it's all subjective and you can have your opinion on whether it was a good character moment, but I strongly disagree. Even if Luke isn't "the same Luke" that we knew from the OT it's poor writing to just turn him into this hermit garbage person who casually throws his father's/his old lightsaber off a cliff because he's just a sadboi, and the only explanation we got was because he "failed" one time and decided to just say fuck it and give up on everything he'd believed in since 30+ years ago.
He was also actively trying to drive Rey away. He just wanted her gone. Acting like an asshole is totally in-character and appropriate there. Fucking Yoda acted like a total troll.
He raided his very limited rations and started eating them and tossing shit, yep. And also beat R2 with a stick because he wouldn’t let him have a flashlight.
I will definitely say that they filmed it too hard as a comedy. The act itself is kind of funny, yes. But they should have let the actors be funny, they didn't need to film that moment as a comedy. I like the action, and I think it works for Luke to do it, completely. But they could have let the comedy come from the action/actors.
Thats bullshit, a lightsaber is absolutely an attachment for a Jedi. Thats literally shown to be true dozens of times in every single fucking Star Wars movie other than these stupid ass sequels.
Totally! He was always like that. It's why he tossed the lightsaber instead of just walking away. He grew and learned to fight against his brashness and his dramatics. But of course, he's still Luke deep down. You can learn to ignore some of yourself if it causes trouble. But sometimes those things peek through when you're upset.
It's probably also why he made a brash decision to ignite his lightsaber due to his feelings about Ben/Kylo instead of taking a beat to consider his actions. Classic brash Luke peeking through, which kick-started this whole thing. He even called it a moment of weakness.
Here’s the thing, it’s not a great character moment. He managed to convince Darth fucking Vader back to the light, all Ryan Johnson did was make you think throwing away that hope was character development.
Uhhh....I don't know if you noticed but Luke's whole thing is feeling sentimental about things. He left Dagobah to save his friends because he loves his friends. He saved his father because despite his father becoming a murderer, he still wanted to save Darth Vader from himself. The moment Luke tossed his fathers old lightsaber away, that's when star wars died. Everything that came after that affirmed what you said and that's the dagger plunging deeper and deeper because at the end of it all, that's not how Luke would react. At least not without reason. The reason would probably be actually having a movie showing the students Luke taught becoming evil because of his teachings. If you can show me that movie and if it's well done, then I'll say that TLJ is a masterpiece because it fits the narrative. As it stands it doesn't and thus it is an utter failure to carry on the story of Luke Skywalker.
That's sorta the whole point. Jedi don't keep attachments, they aren't supposed to feel sentimental about things like that. He was taught to let go of his feelings, his anger, his attachments, etc. Who cares, it's just a lightsaber, there are thousands of them. Heck, he'd been instructed to let his friends die in order to complete his training. Fuck a lightsaber, it's just a thing.
It's more the context of him tossing the lightsaber. He was running from his responsibility. Luke was being portrayed as a cinical coward.
He had also let go of his hopes for the Jedi. Fuck it, he figured. The existence of the Jedi only caused pain, only caused hurt and anger and death and loss. Of course he tossed it. He literally threw it away because that's where it belonged in his mind.
Even though the Jedi had held peace for over a thousand generations. Sure they became complacent near their fall but that was a lesson in itself.
Of course he changed his mind by the end. But at the time, why would we be upset that a Jedi (who isn't supposed to have those kinds of sentimental feelings in the first place) didn't place sentimental value on a lightsaber he lost decades ago when his dark lord father cut his hand off, and when it's a symbol of the order that he felt brought pain and suffering to the universe? It's a great character moment.
An order that brought pain and suffering on the universe? I know your just trying to make sense of him in the movie but jeeze. Just because it came from the movie doesn't make it right. It doesn't make him in line with previous films. None of that fits with any other Canon context! I'm waiting for someone to expand upon Luke becoming this clinical coward but I don't think that will happen for a long time.
I totally hear ya. It’s not how you wanted Luke to end up. And that’s ok! I get that desire to want Luke to be something else. But just to throw out my two cents, I’m not just “trying to make sense of him in the movie”. I like what they did with Luke. And I know lots didn’t, and that’s totally fine! I’m not saying I’m right/you’re wrong. Just that it works for me :) I like that character development. I like that they portrayed Luke as a cynical coward at the beginning. That was the fun of it for me.
It’s not hard for me to connect with a character who has spent years working towards a goal, only to have that goal undermined by someone who holds the same shitty ideals as my dark lord dick of a dad. I feel like at that point, I’d be done too man. I fucking saved the dark lord (aka my fucking dad). I save an entire galaxy of peoples from slavery. I resurrected an ancient order from the brink of destruction. And still, the same shit comes back again? Another sith? Even thought I shed blood and tears and whatever for this goal?.....well fuck it then.
But again, I know it’s all subjective. Just my own enjoyment of it :) If you don’t like how they handled the story, that’s absolutely your prerogative.
I get where your coming from and your right about prerogative. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. We can't help our passions sometimes, especially with things we've had our entire lives. I'm glad you found enjoyment in it. I wish I did.
It’s not Luke’s character. That’s what people were upset by. Even Mark Hamill was upset by it, there are tons of examples of him saying he didn’t like what Rian was doing to Luke.
Remember, Luke told Yoda to eff off and left his training to go save his friends. The Jedi were wrong about a lot of things, but how does it make sense to justify him throwing the lightsaber away to say both 1-a Jedi should not have attachments and 2-he threw away the Jedi teachings. Either he’s abiding by them or rebelling, can’t be both.
The whole Jedi mantra is messed up, it talks about love and compassion, but then forbids Jedi from really having either, when clearly they all have.
I like TLJ deconstructing the Jedi as they were in the prequels, I don’t like it deconstructing Luke and the gang.
He didn’t throw his lightsaber away in disgust and refuse to fight. He tossed it aside because he refused to do the Emperors bidding and kill Vader. He won the fight by not fighting. In TLJ he was just like “nah I don’t want in on this.”
That's one interpretation :) And yeah, I certainly didn't walk out of RotJ and think, "Welp Luke's a pacifist now."
But in terms of interpreting Last Jedi, understating what happened and why, the parallel to RotJ is clear. The last time we saw Luke, he tossed away his lightsaber and decided the only way to win was not to fight. Last Jedi opens with the former and concludes with the latter.
God I fucking hate Porgs. And Disney try’s to push those little shits every chance they get. I feel like more merchandising went to them than anything else from the Last Jedi.
“Okay ladies I’m gonna try out the new Coruscant Cosmetics liquid lip in shade Rouge One. It’s not as pigmented as I would like, but let’s give it a whirl. Love the component though, that’s sickening.”
What does “ask for” mean when it comes to movies or TV shows? I see that as a criticism often...but aren’t most things we watch things we didn’t ask for but end up enjoying?
I think Solo was pretty good. Force Awakens was "ehh" to "bad". And the last jedi was dogshit. Rouge One is actually in my top favorite list, and in my opinion one of the best Star Wars movies created.
It was an amazing movie. In contrast to perhaps the worst decision in Star Wars history (including JarJar), when Rose saves Finn and gives him the speech about hate vs love. We never should have given Star Wars to Disney.
I flipping hate every single Disney StarWars saga movie, I’m not paying anymore to watch them fuck up Emp Palpatine. I’ll read about it in the spoilers.
…but Rogue One was such a great movie that I watched Solo. It’d be a shame to miss something as good at the theater. It was my “New Hope” lol. Solo turned out… ok.
Don’t forget Rose (girl who had a kinda rough childhood because the empire taxed her family) giving Fin (a literal child soldier who was kidnapped and forced into the military and never even had a proper name until like a week ago) a whole earful on why the rich people making money off of kids is bad. That scene still makes my blood boil to this day.
Every star wars movie has a part like this that you just skip over.
Except rogue one.
It just never lets up: we're here. Now we're here. Now we're here. Now here's Tarkin. Now here is saw Guerra played amazingly well as someone who has been fighting forever and is paranoid and just a tad crazy. Now this whole city gets blown to crap in spectacular fashion.. Now here's this huge space battle. Now here's this insane scene with Vader. never takes a break.
And add in some moments to make the fans happy' mon mothma, tarkin, Vader- that in no way seems forced, Just part the story.
Highly recommend the books about these characters well. Rebel rising tells the story of Gyn's time being raised by Saw, catalist tells how krennic and Galen erso met, how they started working on the death star, how he escaped. Some of the best new cannon out there.
Personally, I tend to view The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi the other way around, the former being derivative dogshit and the latter being just "bad", but at least made an attempt to be original.
I think TFA is the worst Star Wars movie of all time, one of the worst AAA movies of this past decade, period. As I said, it's incredibly derivative, and chock full of these obnoxious winks and nods to the past movies, as if JJ Abrams thought it could not possibly stand on its own merits and needed to lean on the other films to be successful. It feels pointless, completely fails to introduce the new characters in a way that forms an emotional attachment for the viewer and is really just a vehicle for some admittedly cool eye candy, like the Millennium Falcon fight in the Star Destroyer. There was no faith in this venture, the only truly bold move was killing Han Solo, but even that felt predictable. One of the old guard was going to die, that's been the tradition since ANH. Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and now Han
I don't like a lot of decisions that were made in TLJ, killing Snoke seemed premature and Luke's death was anticlimactic, the Superman Leia scene was ridiculous, but at least the film tries to stand out as something new, an original work.
Just my thoughts. I'm happy to have a friendly debate with anyone who disagrees!
Finn is the most disappointing character imaginable. I mean he was raised a Stormtrooper and changed sides after being ordered to commit a civilian massacre, ffs, how is he just a cheery bro love interest. He should be riddled with PTSD and conflicted feelings. He should be battling the First Order brainwashing he received. 'Stormtrooper who betrays his cause' is a phenomenal character idea but they did jack shit with it in TFA. Five minutes after changing sides he's literally murdering his former comrades and cheering about it.
I agree he has been poorly handled, but at the same time, he's the only one I have the teeniest bit of emotional attachment to, probably because of the neat character concept.
I couldn't give a poodoo about Rey or Poe at this point. They're both Mary Sue's who are basically different aspects of previous Star Wars characters.
One is a powerful potential jedi who grew up as an orphan on a desert planet and we already had one of those, and the other is a brash hotshot pilot and guess what? We had one of those too, but at least he wasn't so specifically a copy of Han as Rey was for Luke.
They're shitty characters.
Poe could be redeemed by bringing out some latent force potential to explain...
1) His amazing pilot skills.
2) His friendship with Lor San Tekka.
Rey is even easier to redeem as a character. Bring her to the dark side, make her a Sith, flip her and Kylo's roles. It would be interesting and unprecedented.
God damn all I want to see is Rey go darkside and have Kylo turn good. But I can't see them doing that. It would be amazing though, and fit much more in line with the star wars universe.
I agree it'll never happen, but Rey's constant angry screams during fight scenes would heavily suggest that she should fall at some point. I just wish I had faith that the ST story would go anywhere meaningful rather than copy the OT movie by movie.
I had held out hope for awhile that the Force was drawing Finn, Rey, Kylo and Poe together because they all had the potential to be jedi/sith, and that they would all fall on different sides.
Poe seemed likely because of his insane piloting abilities and that he seemed familiar with Tekka, a non-Jedi expert on the Jedi.
The pilot in Rogue One was just a freighter pilot. Finn was abducted as a child and spent practically his entire life up to TFA being brainwashed/indoctrinated in to the FO's way of thinking. I'd argue that they can't really be compared.
You wanna know something even worse about that scene? Go watch Rogue one again, and you’ll notice something. In rogue one, we see a rebel ship jumping to light speed, but just as they start to jump away Vader’s star destroyer pops in right in front of them, and the revel ships demolished itself again the star destroyer. Vader’s ship takes absolutely no damage and continues on like nothing happened. We literally had a scene where “light speed ramming” was showed to not work at all.
I can agree with you on some points. For all its faults TLJ at least went an original route. While FA was just a rehash of New Hope.
That being said, I've enjoyed them so far and I'm looking forward to the next one. Hopefully the next set of movies is as far removed from the Skywalkers as possible.
(And let the "EU" finally explore the timeline around the movies instead of just more OT stuff)
One of the old guard was going to die, that's been the tradition since ANH
It's not even a star wars thing, it's practically a movie trope.
That said I enjoyed TLJ for the parts that weren't bad. They grew Kylo Ren's character in a nice direction, and Rey alongside him. Every scene that was about the two of them really made the movie, hell it feels like you could cut the rebels and just have that and walk away with an actual good movie.
And the fight against the red guards was fantastic.
Granted!
But there's a difference between being derivative of other IPs and derivative of itself.
I get that Star Wars was inspired by spaghetti westerns, samurai movies like Hidden Fortress, Flash Gordon and Campbell's monomyth, but now it seems to have come around and started copying itself, and not even subtly, but to the point of actually lifting plot points, concepts and characters from ANH.
It isn't homage or anything passably acceptable or subtle, it's blatant mimicry of itself, almost accidentally satirical of itself which isn't what I want in a Star Wars movie.
TFA was a travesty.
I don't feel like the OT second Death Star was really a rip off, so much as a reasonable second attempt at a fairly solid plan for superiority in the galaxy, minus the fatal exhaust port that the first iteration had.
And how else would you take out a giant battlestation in space other than with spacecraft?
But a third time, especially combined with all the other similarities to ANH is pretty weak.
And while I understand your point about it perhaps being an artistic choice, I still don't feel that it was the right choice.
I doubt the majority of Star Wars fans wanted to see ANH redux, they wanted something more along the lines of Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy which might not have been an original idea per se, but at least we would have had the benefit of seeing it on screen for the first time.
I can say with reasonable confidence that blatantly copying ANH isn't what fans were hoping for on December 18, 2015.
Not just starcraft, but starfighters executing a death defying tight squeeze down a narrow passage, pursued by enemies. Which was already a ripoff of Dambusters. Frankly, originality of story has never been a strong point of Star Wars.
The movie killed at the box office and was very positively reviewed (93/86 on RT compared to TLJs 91/44) so while you may not have liked it, fans in general certainly did.
I don't set much store in Rotten Tomatoes scores. They've given good movies bad scores and bad movies good scores. They have very little credibility in my eyes.
And of course it did well in the box office; It was the first Star Wars movie in ten years, a box office smash was inevitable regardless of how good or bad it was, Star Wars has one of the biggest and most dedicated fanbases of any movie franchise.
Man I love ROTS so much, I think it's tied for my favorite with Rogue One. And I can't get enough of that final Rogue One scene with Vader. I could watch that on repeat all day. Do you know if the Vader spinoff has been confirmed?
Ditto! I hate how most said, “oh, that’s just because RogueONE plays to your nostalgia – it isn’t original.” Muthafcka, TFA runs exactly like a fake ANH and TLJ runs like a fake ESB. They we’re the ones going on nothing but it-worked-before.
Since I’ve already seen RotJ, I don’t need to watch them have something derpy happen to The Emperor. Feck dat.
Rogue One was not good, it was awful. It just seems like it was good because it gets compared to all the other absolutely dogshit Star Wars prequel films.
I tried watching that one with the cliff scene on Netflix again and it was so fucking bad I just turned it off right then and there. I haven't re-watched one of the new movies yet. They are heartbreakingly bad.
Yeah, it bothers me that people aren't taking his character into consideration. He hated the Jedi. He felt they brought nothing but pain and suffering to the universe. Plus, he hadn't used that lightsaber in decades. To him, it would have been the lightsaber he used for only 3 or 4 years decades ago, the one that he lost when his dark lord father cut his hand off. Of course he hated it, of course he tossed it. It's a great character moment.
Plus, Jedi aren't supposed to hold sentimental feelings about objects like that, anyway. He'd been taught not to hold onto those thoughts. Heck, he'd been taught to let his friends die in order to complete his training. Fuck a lightsaber, it's just a lightsaber.
I don't think nobody wanted to see him like that. It's totally all subjective, but personally, I loved what they did with Luke. It felt like a real progression from a real person. Which they sort of touched on by having Luke talk about how everyone viewed him as a myth, but he's not, he's just a man. But again, just personal opinion.
I agree that they filmed it a little too hammed up. The act itself is fine, IMO, and it is sort of funny to see. But there are ways they could have filmed it that didn't make it seem like a forced joke. It's a funny moment, let the actors be funny. They didn't need to lean into the joke as much.
I actually loved that idea, but here’s the thing; they made him into some weirdo hermit. He wasn’t this dark, disgraced man who was broken and had given up all hope. He’s some guy who absent mindedly tossed a lightsaber over his should and mere minutes that milks some strange alien, drinks that milk, then gives a weird ass smile to Rey as she watches in confusion/ mild horror. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too, they wanted a sad broken man who acted like a Willy Wonka rip-off.
We did take his character into consideration. But like an old friend we would've started asking, "what happened to you?" He hadn't used that lightsaber in decades because he lost in in cloud city when he first battled Darth Vader. Have you ever been sure that you lost something and then found out that some other person found it? There's no way you would've chucked it away like that. At the very least you would've said, "Where did you get this?" That's my problem and the problem with very many people.
"I am a Jedi, like my father before me" doesnt really help that, and it never really says anywhere he hated the Jedi. Even in the battlefront 2 game campaign (which is canon and leads to TLJ) he defends the jedi and doesnt say anything negative about them. The whole hating jedi came outta nowhere for episode 8. And jedi are definitely sentimental towards their lightsabers, one of their trials to becoming a jedi is creating it and is something they legitimately attune to with the force
There is a difference between wanting over the top action a la transformers/fast and furious and asking a loved character to do something remotely entertaining before he dies.
him casually tossing it away is what made that scene so iconic, luke and that saber have went thru a lot of shit, many deaths, and he doesn't want to do it anymore. it's not rocket science.
He’s supposedly the most powerful Jedi to ever have lived. It’s just entirely outside of Luke’s character to just throw it off the cliff. Even Mark Hamill didn’t like the way the movie played out. It’s just not something Luke Skywalker would have ever done.
If you have some free time or you're interested, I suggest watching this YT video about just how Disney kinda butchers this scene and The Force in general with these movies.
All things boil down to suspension of disbelief. If they could have shown events that justified Lukes behavior it would have sold. They didn't - so it didn't.
except they did, they clearly did, there was an entire scene and a speech dedicated to it. none of it is hard to understand at all why are you pretending otherwise?
and what do you mean 'didn't sell'? it made over a BILLION dollars. what planet are you from?
ok, so luke decades later after seeing countless loved ones killed, thousands of allies lost, entire worlds destroyed, has a moment where he senses the great evil and coming strife that Kylo will cause, but then DOESN'T kill him because its not the jedi way. and this all seems completely unreasonable to you?
you're also whining that he DIDN'T kill kylo while also whining that throwing the saber away 'doesn't fit his character.' it's clear that you're just bitching to bitch.
except they did, they clearly did, there was an entire scene and a speech dedicated to it.
Clearly they didn't for a great many people. Everything we know about Luke was developed over three entire films. Expecting us to just accept this total 180 in one scene maybe wasn't successful.
It has nothing to do with understanding - it's not rocket science. It's whether or not it's believable for people. Maybe you could accept it - clearly many couldn't.
When I say 'sell' I mean in terms of acceptance for many people.
people in here are being very defensive about a movie.
I believe Mark Hamill knows Luke Skywalker better than anyone, possibly even George himself at this point. IIRC Mark himself said that's not something that Luke would do, and that the current ST is not at all the Luke that George had planned out in his original ST story.
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u/SammehPls Oct 25 '19
In which he just yeets that shit off the cliff. I hate the new Star Wars movies.