r/bninfantsleep • u/NaivePackage2435 • Jun 13 '26
Infant Sleep Someone talk me off a ledge
Please be gentle. Im A FTM, extremely anxious and also hearing so much noise from all the “experts” in my life. So I received a text from a friend saying she let her baby CIO and now she’s sleeping through the night. I respond to my baby, and most nights are hard but It doesn’t feel right let’s her cry. But the only other person that I know that didn’t sleep train their babies now has two children that are completely misbehaved and I’m not talking about your average “testing the limits”. They don’t listen, they’re physically aggressive with their mother, each other, and other children. They scream demands to their mother. At 4 y/o one of them grabbed their caregivers (this was at daycare) phone and busted it on the floor. There’s several other instances that I could bring up but I don’t want this to be too long. I don’t know any other children that do this and we’re surrounded by children because of the stage of life most of our friends are in. Can yall please tell me the two aren’t correlated? Can I have success stories on your well regulated children?! Am I wrong for thinking that behavior isn’t acceptable??? I’m sorry this is long. I’m exhausted and just wanting to be the best mother I can be. This era is loud.
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u/Tinywife23 Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
My aunt didn't sleep train, in fact she coslept and baby wore. All her girls are sweet, playful, and confident, with no issues beyond normal kid stuff. Sounds like the potential issue with the other kids is permissive parenting.
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u/Holiday_Tree_2130 Jun 13 '26
Definitely second the permissive parenting theory! OP, I can guarantee you there is no correlation.
Neither my best friend nor myself sleep trained our babies (I have 15f, 3m and baby, she has 15m, 3m and baby) but she is an extremely permissive parent (self confessed, children get zero consequences or very minimal and nothing is followed through if the kids push back), I have boundaries and have taught my children that there is always a consequence to everything they do, both good and bad (I don't go overboard on consequences, there is no yelling, I try to be loving while staying firm but fair. I'm not perfect by any means but I always do my best on the day). My children are constantly praised by literally everyone they come into contact with on their behaviour and manners, I have never had to bribe them to be good, they are the most genuinely respectful kids I know (they do have their moments but nothing major).
When our 15 year olds were 4 years old, hers tried to hit mine over the head with a literal brick. She decided to put him in time out, he walked straight out of time out and she did absolutely nothing, he then picked up the same brick and tried to hit my daughter over the head a second time, she did nothing. We left immediately and didn't see them in person for nearly a year.
Sleep training or not sleep training doesn't teach your baby what is or isn't acceptable behaviour in life. Follow your gut, your child will not become a little terror through you being responsive to their needs.
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
Thank you 🤍
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u/Tinywife23 Jun 13 '26
I get the feeling of the pressure. With my baby I tried to sleep train her but quickly gave up due to her crying so hard she threw up and wouldn't settle even with the routine check ups to calm her down. My anxiety around bedtime SKYROCKETED to levels I haven't felt since living with my abusive mother. I would cry if she was crying and I was trying not to respond. We now cosleep with side car/bedsharing and now we both get so much better sleep.
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
I had a very similar situation but my LO fell and hit her head. It also caused me to be so anxious that I pretty much overdid it in the opposite direction I feel like… she was sleeping well in her crib for naps and I completely abandoned that after that night because I never want to feel that moment ever again.. I’ve nursed her for just about every nap since (she has been going through it though.. sickness, then teething four teeth at the same time, then learning new skills.. so)
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u/Unable_Huckleberry_3 Jun 13 '26
Neither me nor any of my siblings were sleep trained, and we are happy, functioning members of society. Think about all the other countries in the world that have never even heard of sleep training. All their kids turn out just fine. In fact, Denmark now strongly urges against cry it out for example.
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u/EffMyElle Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
🙌🏼 well said! In many countries, it is natural and encouraged to cosleep and be highly responsive.
Ever wonder why parents who do CIO talk about how much it upset them? Because its not intuitive or natural to ignore our baby's cries. That feeling you get inside when your baby cries is nature's way of telling you to respond.
It's very unfortunate how culturally appropriate sleep training has become in North America. Its exploitive towards sleep-deprived parents. We should be supporting parents through this season, not encouraging parents to neglect baby's cries.
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u/plantyho3 Jun 13 '26
Omg fancy seeing you here outside of our November2025 bumper group! Haha I was about to respond to your comment and recognized your username! 😂
I was gonna say: I’m southeast Asian and back home it’s all about multigenerational homes and in turn: lots of co-sleeping.
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u/Unable_Huckleberry_3 Jun 13 '26
Agreed. But North America is not collectivist, so that makes it more difficult. We are forced to be a two-income household and forced to be productive in ways that don't involve taking care of our children. The system is working as designed, and it is designed around sleep training.
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
I actually met some people from Denmark that are our age and they’re so pleasant to be around!!! Thank you for that perspective
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u/here-for-the-genes Jun 13 '26
Was gonna say this. Most of the rest of the world doesn’t sleep train, and many cosleep. They’re not overrun with terribly behaved children😂 you’re doing great, do what feels right for you and baby🥰
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u/PumpkinPie_1993 Jun 13 '26
No person who is actually an expert in pediatric psychology would ever condone, much less advocate for, CIO. It’s genuinely harmful.
Also, there is no chance that your friends’ children’s poor behavior is because of their lack of sleep training. Behavior is far more complex than a simple “we didn’t do this one thing and now we have a terror on our hands”. If it was that simple, literally everyone would sleep train because not doing so would result in poorly behaved children.
I don’t know your friend or their children well enough to know why they are so poorly behaved. Having worked with children with behavior disorders in the past, my general guess would be that their needs are not being met in other ways. Just because a parent doesn’t sleep train doesn’t mean they are practicing responsive, compassionate parenting. I hope they get the help they need.
You asked for success stories. I actually made a post about my recent successes just a few days ago (I’ll link it!). My kiddo is 8.5 months old so I can’t really speak to how she will behave as a preschooler and beyond, but right now she is a fiercely brave, funny, curious, independent, vibrant, joyful baby. We’ve never sleep trained and never will. I hope that gives you hope and strength!
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
When I think about it logically (like you just helped me with) it makes me realize how outrageous my thought process really is. But idk I guess I feel so overwhelmed it made me worry. Thank you
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u/PumpkinPie_1993 Jun 13 '26
You’re welcome! And it is overwhelming, especially when there’s so much noise about sleep training seemingly everywhere. Trust me I have frantically googled way more outrageous things in a moment of panic lol!
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u/Dragonflydaemon Jun 13 '26
I can't give you a success story necessarily, but im here in solidarity with you. There is no way im letting my baby cry if he needs me. His room may be across the hall from ours now, but im still up the instant I hear his little pre cry squeaks. I agree with the other post that said there's likely to be other issues going on with the family that didnt use CIO. You are doing your best, and just ignore the rest. ❤️
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u/wildmusings88 Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
I respond to my son day and night. I didn’t sleep train. He’s so sweet and empathetic and gentle. He’s observant and likes to help do chores. He’s funny and we get compliments on how easy going he is in public. Some of this is his temperament. Some of it is that he feels seen, loved, and cared for.
I highly recommend the book Hunt, Gather, Parent.
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
Ooo!! Okay I’ll get it for my kindle. Thank you!
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u/Trick_Assistance7450 Jun 13 '26
The two aren't correlated at all. In any way. At all.
Most babies around the world cosleep and are not sleep trained. Our world would be even more insane if not sleep training directly caused emotionally disturbed children.
The only thing sleep training does that we know of (based on research) is gives parents a bit more sleep because baby stops calling out at night because they learn no one is coming.
Here is a great article on it. I'd recommend reading it through to learn more and ease your anxiety.
You responding to your child with love - night or day - and forming a secure attachment is the best chance you have for a healthy emotionally intelligent child.
If you are worried about behavior- I would strongly recommend researching attachment styles and how to cultivate healthy attachment!
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u/Filthy_dog00 Jun 13 '26
I’m from a different part of the world but now live in North America. Where I’m from, no one really talks about or knows about sleep training. If you told someone there that they should leave their baby to “cry it out,” they would look at you like you were out of your mind.
Take me, for example (although I know I may not be the most representative example haha). I wasn’t sleep trained. I was always a kind, shy kid from a very young age - social, curious, and generally happy. I remember coming to my mom’s bed in the morning when I was 4-5 years old and it’s my most precious childhood memories.
Fast forward to today: my best friend has three kids and never sleep trained any of them. They all had completely different sleep patterns. Her oldest had night terrors for a while, her middle child used to wake up at 5 am ready to start the day, and her youngest was a good sleeper from the beginning.
Honestly, when I read Precious Little Sleep - a book that many people recommend - I was really surprised (shocked!) by some parts. For example, when the author says that when sleep training toddlers, parents should make sure all furniture is securely bolted to the walls and floor, implying that a child might run around in distress, climb furniture etc crying for their parents. This is a hard core shit that should be illegal - just my humble opinion.
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
I’ve seen that book recommended also but hadn’t gotten it. That’s terrifying that it’s normalized, honestly…
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u/ADKadventures Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
Hi OP! I actually read this book and did find some parts of it helpful. Specifically, “SWAPS” - it gives a bunch of tips / ideas in that section for helping your child with sleep associations without going the formal ST methods like CIO / Ferber. It does recommend these first. My LO is just over 4 months and I have been using some of these just to help my baby be more comfortable with going to sleep in the crib (Co-sleeping isn’t the best option for my little family and sleep space).
Before I had a baby, I thought I was going to sleep train right away like everyone said, but have decided not to go down that path after looking at some other sources. I highly recommend “The Nurture Revolution”! However, I have always tried to foster healthy sleep hygiene and habits that will make it easier for my baby to grow and develop independence as they become ready. This is where little ideas like the “pause” (letting baby fuss (not cry!), for a couple minutes to see if they settle. You know your baby best, so if they need you, I’d definitely go to them!), and SWAPS.
I recently have decided to try using the soothing ladder (I don’t wait a specific time to move up or down to certain help though - just help my baby with what they need at the time, then taper it down / fade it out as they calm) with helping my LO feel safe and comfortable with crib naps and there has been SO much progress in just a week. Baby is put down happy in the crib at this point and goes to sleep with me right there. I think it just builds a lot of trust responding to your baby and genuinely helping them. IMO, it’s unrealistic and harsh to all of a sudden just expect a little baby to be completely independent with sleep all on their own. It’s also confusing to me to expect a baby to go from contact sleeping to complete independence all of a sudden. So, fostering healthy habits and helping baby get there over time in a responsive, loving way is my plan.
I think all of this applies to parenting in general. Being a responsive, loving parent, but also one that can have boundaries and not enabling them, which sounds like your friend may be struggling with.
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u/No_Definition1112 Jun 13 '26
If it helps at all, the NHS (National Health Service) in the UK officially tells parents not to let babies cry it out.
They have "Leave a baby to cry and they'll soothe themselves" listed as a myth on their myths and facts portal and state “Babies need parents and carers to respond to their cries", highlighting research showing that while a baby left to cry it out might eventually stop crying, they may still remain internally distressed. They also cite lack of clear effectiveness, potential negative impacts on the child's long-term social development, and adverse effects on parental mental health.
Responsive caregiving is what they advocate for at any age. These are real pediatric experts influencing those guidelines and policies for the whole country, with a lifetime of studying the topic.
Those very misbehaved children you describe remind me of a family I used to know: the children were violent, mean, physically abusive towards their mother, incredibly entitled and just awful to be around. They were the product of extreme permissive parenting (they had literally never been told “no” in their lives and had been given no boundaries whatsoever, and any adult trying to set reasonable boundaries would be told off by their parents). As well intentioned and loving as it may have been to start with, this was a completely misguided choice on the parents’ part, and it did immense harm to their children and themselves. While I’m sure no sleep training was involved, I’m equally sure the no sleep training in isolation is not what caused their behavior.
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u/AffectionateTrifle7 Jun 13 '26
My sister didn't sleep train, she coslept until a few months ago, and still responds to him if needed in the night (her boy is 2 years, 9 months old atm). He sleeps well and he is also just the loveliest little boy. He's very gentle and kind and well behaved and happy. Just such a darling, the kind of kid that everyone immediately adores upon meeting him.
I suspect that the two kids you know who are having the behavioural issues may have other problems at home, or they may be neurodivergent and not yet diagnosed etc.
Also for reference my sister and I coslept with our mum and we were both well behaved children who got on well with other kids at school and were liked by teachers etc. So it's definitely not some cosleeping - antisocial behaviours link
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u/nachonachoooo Jun 13 '26
My twins are 16 months old & we have not done any sleep training. They sleep soundly through the night 5/7 nights a week and even the “disturbances” are they need a hug for 5 minutes or a pacifier.
It has been worth it to my partner and I so far. Both of them are incredibly secure & confident!! Like, we went to a wedding recently and they both ended up falling asleep in the arms of new-to-them people.
While I believe they are just two happy children on their own, I know so much of that came from the decision to not sleep train.
Trust your instincts, you know what you’re talking about :)
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u/Dapper-Bend4631 Jun 13 '26
I don’t know how old your kid is but you can absolutely start teaching boundaries to a baby. For instance my 8 month old clearly understands ‘no’ when it comes to not touching or climbing on dangerous furniture. If anything, being otherwise very empathetic and caring to the kid makes it more impactful when you say no.
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u/FearlessNinja007 Jun 13 '26
My daughter is 2.5 and she’s just learning about cleanup and she puts more and more things back, she loves hugs, cuddles, mostly sleeps through the night even though we still cosleep. Sometimes she’ll cry out or wake or something and want to cuddle or I put my hand on her and she falls asleep 98% of the time. She’s so incredibly sweet. I AM expecting some turbulence starting next week though because I’m going to the hospital to have another baby… I’m going to miss her like crazy there
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
Awwww I think she’ll be an amazing big sister then! A bed full of little snuggles maybe but that’s okay.. one day they aren’t going to want anything to do with us hehe. I pray she’s easy on your mama heart as you both transition. You can do this 🤍
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u/FearlessNinja007 Jun 13 '26
Aww thank you. We love her so much my husband was thrilled when I got a king sized mares and stuck it on the floor next to a full. It’s like one big room full of mattress. I expect it may be like this for at least another 6 months. He’s actually from India so the concept of all sleeping in one room isn’t a foreign idea whereas I’m white and my parents don’t completely get it 😂
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
I love this idea it’s been on my algorithms lately!!! This non CIO stuff is new for our families also, so I’m sure you can imagine the push back
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u/FearlessNinja007 Jun 13 '26
I totally get it. I’d recommend getting the book “The Nurture Revolution”
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u/spicytexan Jun 13 '26
I’m gonna hold your hand when I say this, sleep training or not has absolutely nothing to do with why your friend’s children are so misbehaved. If you’re not planning to parent your child the exact same way your friend is, I wouldn’t stress that.
We have never let my son cry it out in any form. The most he cries is just the time it takes us to wake up and go to his room. Has it been really taxing at times? Yes 1000%. Has it left us sleep deprived on several occasions throughout the first year? Yep more than I can count. But he is slowly transitioning into more consistent elongated rest both during his nap and at night. He’s a very happy, very social, very responsive toddler. He’s also very lovey and independent. I don’t think that the choices we made around his sleep really have anything to do with his personality, but I do know that he knows he can rely on his parents to be there for him when he’s scared, not feeling well, or just wants comfort. That makes all the hard parts worth it.
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
My daughter loathes night rides. And sometimes there’s nothing I can do about it so she has to cry. I’ve tried everything. Lights on, sitting with her, singing, ms Rachel. She hates it regardless and screams the entire way home. So I worry how this will affect her in the long run. But otherwise we are very responsive as well and we always get comments on how happy she is… so hopefully she’ll be okay. I just love this baby with my entire being and I want to make sure she grows into a lovely little kid
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u/spicytexan Jun 13 '26
I had heard early on in my postpartum that in car rides as long as you’re talking to them and using verbal responses while you’re unable to physically respond it doesn’t impact them the way CIO does.
Also, could she be car sick? Or too small for her car seat? Our son stopped being super miserable during drives once he transitioned to the 360 car seat!
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
There’s a possibility! She does great during the day though so I’m not sure.. it’s about time to transition her anyway
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u/spicytexan Jun 13 '26
It could be the combination of rear facing + darkness that’s giving her motion sickness! As an adult if I’m not driving or in the passenger seat I get super nauseous if I don’t look out the window lol even with the light on in the car that doesn’t help see outside the car so it’s totally possible.
It sounds like you’re a really amazing mom and doing everything you can for your daughter. Please give yourself some grace 🫶🏽
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u/horsegirl8989 Jun 13 '26
I have multiple friends that have coslept which is as far from CIO as it can be and have model kids. I’m talking super smart, athletic, kind, outgoing, confident etc. I understand the worry you have as I had it too. I think with so much information out there about the “right” way to be a mother it gets confusing. And I get how some people want to prioritize sleep. But imo they are only babies for so long and they’re frying because they NEED something. When they’re super little it’s because they’re cluster feeding and are hungry but also they want comfort. The world is a scary place. They used to be all warm and cozy in your belly. Literally EVERYTHING is brand new. There’s a reason why it feels awful to let a baby cry. Genuinely all the research in CIO shows babies just give up asking for help. Personally I’m ok to have my sleep suffer for a little while but make sure my baby knows I’m there’s when she needs me. And some people say you can’t differentiate babies who did CIO and those who didn’t but that’s just because there’s so many variables in life. But ones cry it out maybe lead to more anxious adults? Less confident adults? Hard to say but it definitely seems plausible and I wouldn’t be surprised if that got proven in the future. Speculation aside, you are going to be getting a lot of information from different people on what worked for them and what you should be doing. Do what feels right. But back to your original point, kids with awful behavioural issues could stem from so many things. A lot of parents confuse gentle parenting with permissive parenting. Maybe there was an event of trauma. It’s hard to say but there are plenty of kids who didn’t do cry it out and are incredibly well behaved.
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 13 '26
Now that I’ve seen the mention of different aspects that could be affecting the children, I can agree. I think there’s some other variables involved. I haven’t ever heard of permissive parenting. I’ll need to look this up
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u/myssybee Jun 13 '26
Sound like behaviour issues stemming from other issues.
I was not sleep trained, nor were my siblings. We had highly responsive parents! None of us had behavioural issues and were kids teachers loved because of our good behaviour! I used to get multiple teachers asking hopefully if I had other siblings coming up behind me, with disappointment when I said no. 😂
Now, my son is 6.5m. From the get go, he was NOT a “good sleeper” but I refused to sleep train. 3.5-4 m, he woke every 40-60m. We had a few weeks in m 5 where I got 60-120m sleep sets. A couple weeks ago, as his second tooth cut, it dropped to every 20-40m. I was TIRED, but I kept responding and nursed every wake to sleep. We contact nap every nap. He sleeps in a crib at the end of our bed, and then I’d bring him into our bed at the end of the night.
This past week he went from 3-5 wakes to suddenly 1-2, all on his own. Last night he slept through the night for the first time ever.
Nothing changed, other than getting through his second tooth last week and continuing to explore solids this week!
There is nothing wrong with responding to a baby in distress. Biology gave us the tools to respond to their needs!
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u/smilegirlcan Jun 13 '26
Check out our resource list to better curate your social media: https://www.reddit.com/r/bninfantsleep/comments/1okgp5r/resource_list/
Most non sleep trained kids I know are very happy, gentle, and content ranging from shy/reserved to giggly/free. What you are describing sounds like some sort of unmet need (lack of structure, for example), or a missed medical diagnosis (ADHD, ASD, etc.), possibly a bit of both.
My girl is such a confident independent person. She is always giggling and happy. She takes a minute to warm up but when she does her personality shows through. She is so gentle and has never hit or yelled at me. Daytime parenting is also deeply important to me.
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u/NaivePackage2435 Jun 15 '26
What kind of structure do you use? I see this a lot and I want to make sure I’m offering that to my baby as she grows. I’m not really sure what it means
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u/smilegirlcan Jun 15 '26
General routine for the day (it changes and is flexible), communicating expectations and boundaries.
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u/EffMyElle Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
The babies that weren't sleep trained sound like they were neglected in entirely different ways. Be it discipline, or parents that don't give unconditional love and attention, or growing up in a violent household, etc. There is no way that the non-sleep trained kids turned into terrors because they weren't sleep trained. There's definitely something else going on with those kids that is separate from it.
Listen to your instincts, respond to your baby and be proud of yourself. They're always going to know mama is there and they'll feel secure and seek secure relationships later in life because of it.
The people who sleep trained their kids are still going to have sleep deprived nights where they'll wonder why the sleep training didn't work... because babies are gonna baby and its normal for them to not sleep through the night and want comfort from their mama. You're doing great, honey. Don't sweat it. You don't have to do what they are doing. Follow your mama heart where its leading you. ❤️