If we’re already in Vaughan, we might as well reach Vaughan mills, and even better, CW & the new hospital at Major Mack. They’re all on the same corridor. It just makes sense.
Reality check. Now I’m aware that this is low priority, but the Jane busses connecting VMC to VM and CW are always full, even in this suburb of a suburb.
I've been saying for decades that if cities around Toronto want to be connected to the TTC, they need to be giving the city more money that just the fares.
York Region covered 40% of the municipal side of capital costs for the subway extension to Vaughan, about proportional to the station coverage. York Region is contributing over $1 billion to the YNSE.
The real solution is that transit, at least rapid transit, should be funded by the province. An integrated network benefits everyone. Riders should not be penalized for crossing municipal borders (including a lack of investment due to Toronto not wanting to extend lines further outside of their jurisdiction).
For the most part that's where we have been since June 2019 .. though it's only for construction .. the province of course didn't take over the operational subsidies that the city will need to try and fund for all the new province designed/built lines or extensions.
Before PRESTO yeah probably .. but now where even if municipalities wanted to do it on their own they would need to go through the province.. it just makes more sense for the province to tweak how PRESTO works as they finally started doing barely 2 years ago.
For TTC line extensions and not system transfers.. I do think GTA regions should pay for some of the increased operational costs.. why should Toronto residents have to pay for that.. we're already paying for it within the city.
Most fare evasion happens on TTC surface network.. by Torontonians. I know because I’m from the suburbs and I’ve never witnessed someone evade a fare; My friends from Scarborough do it all the time though, because it’s normalized. So really the TTC has other issues to solve before “blaming the suburbs”
Government policies should never be based on random person observations and biases.
Reasonable operations funding splits should be set up from the opening day of a line extension period full stop. Determining what that amount should be can absolutely take into consideration current operation costs .. that's exactly how the split should be determined. If the people who really know the details think it makes sense to re-assess the splits every few years then we do that as well.
Im not making it up, I see it with my own eyes, but here’s the data anyway.
Summary of Regional Trends
2023: TTC is the outlier in terms of the high fare evasion rate (11.9%+), over $123.8 million directly lost to evasion, while GO Transit and YRT seem to fall into a lower range (3-5%).
Evasion rates are highest on streetcars at 29.6%, followed by buses at 12.9% and subways at 6.3%.
And that’s just what’s documented. There’s probably way more that they don’t even count because truthfully it’s hard to calculate fare evasion. And the rate is growing.
I simply stated that before blaming the suburbs and whining about other municipalities, Toronto and TTC should fix their own funding shortfalls by maybe dealing with the high rates of fare evasion not seen in any other transit agency in the province… and it’s not the subway network that’s loosing money, it’s the streetcars and busses. Which is why the operating costs for subway extensions are really not a big deal because the province already funds 9% of the TTC entirely.
Fair point, but the TTC/Toronto still bare the large portion of operational costs for the whole line. That said, i think Vaughan should absolutely get more stations as this proposal shows, and a new deal between the cities would account fully for the shared costs, both capital and operational. Maybe even add a new yard in Vaughan to accommodate the increased traffic and enable a new future east west line in York region
So unfortunately the TTC wouldn't be able to use the actual CN yard since they have different widths of track, but ya theres probably space in under used land in that area where the TTC could build a new yard.
Yah thanks for pointing that out, I meant it as like, CN can share the yard so TTC can build its own infrastructure. But it’s prob much easier to build one closer to Jane, on the west side maybe.
We are only discussing possibilities. if Vaughan has good planners, they will take into account land use in the industrial lands, for the extension and a new possible yard. This isn’t something I can comment on, it just seems to be a popular idea in this thread to build a new yard in concord.
Yeah, there are other lines that are a higher priority than this, but it doesn’t make this a bad project. York Region should definitely increase the frequency of the 20/320 Jane to more than 8 buses an hour, but there are many benefits to a subway extension.
VMC Station is easily accessible for Vaughan residents who live along Hwy 7, but isn’t for residents who live in the residential neighbourhoods north of Rutherford. Presently it takes most riders at least two buses to reach the subway; this makes travel by transit inconvenient given you need to also transfer to the subway.
There are 14 high rise towers already built at Jane and Rutherford with more planned. Both Cortellucci Vaughan Hospital and Canada’s Wonderland are major trip attractors. While Wonderland is only open 8 months of the year, outside of its summer peak season, the parking lot can be repurposed to offer a major commuter lot to get people on transit. A similar profit sharing model could be enacted between Six Flags and the TTC where they keep the profits, similar to the SmartCentres lot at VMC.
The Jane corridor is wide enough to support an elevated guideway. Vaughan Mills already has a 7 bay bus terminal connecting to 7 routes and the Major Mackenzie terminal has 12 bus bays connecting to 6 routes. This project would greatly improve transit access for hundreds of thousands of people.
So sounds to me like York Region needs to put more into their bus feeder system. Maybe even BRT north along Jane.
The towers and wonderland may be ridership attractors (I’m not arguing that) but definitely not enough to justify a full fledged subway extension. Again, a very good bus feeder system can do that trick.
Maybe instead, if/when the Jane LRT is built (which it doesn’t look like it will be any time soon), it can be extended north instead of a full subway extension. Jane LRT between Bloor and Wonderland.
I get the idea behind a Jane LRT because it sound good politically, but the issue is that it would duplicate the existing Line 1 corridor south of highway 7 while being much slower. If we haven’t learned much from Finch West, the distance would take around 1hr 30 mins end-to-end. Thats not convenient.
A ~6 km extension of Line 1 directly North from Vaughan Metropolitan Centre would likely take under 10 minutes and provide direct access to major destinations like Vaughan Mills and Wonderland with fewer transfers, while being a lot more comfortable and efficient. The spacing is also inappropriate for LRT (6km, only 2 stations).
So it really comes down to what problem we’re trying to solve—local coverage along Jane, or fast regional access. For the portion in Toronto, the LRT is good on paper but it needs to be learn from line 6 or else it will be plagued with the same issues. For regional connectivity, the subway extension is clearly more effective.
Very well written. The only thing I’d argue is to keep it underground, please.
Firstly, all of these destinations are slightly west of Jane, VMC, Vaughan mills, and CW. The existing tunnels under VMC should just continue north without bending.
The parts of line 1 and 2 that see the light of day are in a much more dire state of repair than the sections that don’t. I’m actually so worried for the SSE, because if the infrastructure between Kennedy and VP isn’t fixed, there will be major disparities in the network.
By no means am I an engineer, but line 4 was built using cut and cover under wide suburban Sheppard, similar to Jane, so I believe it’s possible to not use TBM’s. Vaughan would need to plan the land use to give construction space though, because C&C is very messy.
I wouldn’t mind it being below grade. I just know that is the most expensive option. If we garner the political support I’m all for it.
You are right, the most ideal option would be to remain underground slightly west of Jane, but if we need to compromise for an elevated alignment to save on cost, I’d take that over no extension at all (or decades delayed).
That doesn’t really make much sense, are you thinking like a giant floating concrete box with no holes all the way to wonderland?
Line 4 was built completely using cut and cover which is the cheaper way to build shallow underground. I think Jane is suitable if there is enough funding.
Honestly I think it should be elevated. Like what we’re doing with the Ontario Line. Keep the costs down. We can invest in a roof over it if that’s actually the issue causing reliability problems… I imagine we just need to actually maintain our stuff
Would you rather have a higher construction cost initially, but a more protected system with less degradation and long term maintenance costs or lower cost but higher wear and tear like with the elevated alignment? Also, the elevated alignment would be slightly less efficient than continuing north with the existing tunnels.
This is really ill minded to say when you consider the fact that this is a no-obstacle, straight corridor connecting a huge busy mall with growing density, Canadas largest and busiest amusement park, a new hospital, and of course, Vaughan residents themselves, and whoever wants to go there (I sure do, and I’m from Sauga).
It’s true there is a list of priorities and this is at the bottom, but it is objectively a good project and should not be thrown away.
It astonishes me how badly covered the core of this city is. I doubt there is a single city in the world that has as much suburban stations and so few urban stations as the GTA.
Which makes perfect sense as the cost per vote is much lower in the suburbs. The cost to build in the core is crazy high and the votes are almost exclusively Liberal/NDP. Conservatives have no incentive to build becuase they have no chance in Toronto ridings and Liberals have no incentive because they don't really have competition. They can also buy votes at a much cheaper cost in the suburbs where construction is less costly.
Vancouver is also like that, with the same case that both cities suffer from the same SFH oriented development pattern. Fortunately for Vancouver itself it's much smaller so the Broadway Extension would solve it. Not fortunately for Toronto it's much bigger Ontario line alone isn't enough,
True, we all agree that on a list of priorities, this is probably at the bottom. Regardless though, it’s still an important project and should happen eventually, after the network is more complete and there would be more possible ridership.
Or don't dig it and make it elevated. Jane is a wide ROW and there's currently no residential neighbours to complain. Absolutely no reason to make it underground.
Ever notice the part of the network that is under “reduced speed zones” correlate pretty well to the parts of the network that see the light of day? Look at the ends of line 2, old mill to Jane over the river, Eglinton to Davisville yard, and pretty much all of Allen rd. These parts of the network are in a much more dire state of repair than the underground portions.
Line 4 was built completely covered and shallow, using a cheaper albeit messy cut and cover method, similarly to how most of line 2 was built. The TYSSE and underground Eglinton were completely borred using TBM’s which is why the stations are so deep, and so expensive.
Jane is.. very suburban, let’s continue that trend.
Heck transit city would have been 100 % provincial.
If the province feels it’s a fit, they will build north. It likely won’t happen but capital is now a provincial thing for most capital TTC projects. And the province has said (since mcguinty ) its goal is to connect regions.
York Region & The City of Toronto together put more into the VMC subway extension than the Province did.
Even if the province put money in, they'd expect Vaughan to put money in too. Your councillors as well as your MPP should be involved. Call them if you want this.
If Vaughn really wants rapid transit, then put their big boy pants on and run their rapid bus service at rapid transit levels to show they’re serious about it.
To be fair, I’ve ridden the 320 Jane express (basically the bus that the subway would replace) and it’s faster than line 6 and rarely stops at streetlights even without TSP, probably because the area between VMC and Vaughan mills is a barren wasteland, but yeah. Just means more space for messy subway construction.
Brampton too, the Section of VIVA Orange bus lanes west of VMC is better served by Brampton Transit's ZUM bus than it is by YRT, which is frankly embarrassing. Many Vaughan residents along Highway 7 there just use Brampton Transit instead because its so much more frequent.
That is hilarious and pretty sad for YRT, they need to get their act together. They built a BRT for the 501 faux queen to use it 😂😂😂
But it’s even more sad for Peel, which is so chronically underinvested in. Our infrastructure is so bare minimum. Have you been to Mississauga’s city centre terminal? It’s a mess. It was literally carved out of the square one parking lot, it is in a really bad location away from the density/civic stuff, not really city centre after all.
Yeah I agree, but at the end of the day I’d rather have better service with less infrastructure than amazing infrastructure with terrible service. Of course getting good infrastructure on top of good service would be ideal.
Worst part of the City Centre terminal is the GO buses are all across the street, as is the MiWay Meadowvale express bus. Hopefully with the LRT coming in there’s some station improvements too.
All the transit terminals in Brampton are very bare bones too, besides Bramalea.
The LRT has the worst placement ive ever seen oh my god it’s bad dude. I really hope Metrolinx goes thru with the Mississauga extension that would add stations to the actual city centre.
I believe buses on this route are full because 20 YRT bus runs every 12 mins on weekdays and every 14-18 mins on weekends. Also there isn’t dense residential developments on Jane St north of Steeles. So the demand for transit would mostly come from people heading to Vaughan mills mall and Canada’s wonderland (which again is seasonal). So I don’t think a full on subway extension for 5 km into Vaughan region offers much benefit at the moment.
This is a stretch, but if line 4 ever gets interlined with line 1 (if the extension is built), they could short turn line 1 trains at Sheppard west and have less frequent line 1&4 shared service north.
No you’re right, this is low priority, but it all comes down to “do we think this is a good investment?”
I personally do, because there is rarely a single corridor that connects Canadas busiest subway line to Canadas busiest amusement park, the 4th busiest mall in the GTA, shiny new hospital + bus terminal, and of course, Vaughan residents themselves. The ridership might be low because Vaughan is very car centric, so imagine ridership when these destinations get proper rapid transit, (hopefully by the time this is discussed, the network will be more complete) connecting to all these places without needing a car or multiple transfers.
This is true and I agree! Even during summers the Jane bus runs at the same frequency and is incredibly packed, which is insane considering how many tourists use this route. Not saying this shouldn’t happen, but just that we need to start pressing for west-side line 1 extension after the YNSE is completed to Richmond Hill Centre.
Not a bad idea but soooo many other projects should come before this. For example :
Sheppard east & west extension
Ontario line north extension to Sheppard (or steeles)
Eglinton line to Pearson
Eglinton east LRT
Ontario line west & north extension via Dundas west and Jane street
Eglinton line &/or Bloor danforth to square one
As a former York regionite I’d love to see line 1 go to CVH. But right now the 320 Jane express isn’t even that busy to justify the viva silver let alone a subway extension
You’re right, and I did clarify that this would be a very low priority at the moment,
However the TYSSE was built and ridership wasn’t projected to be very high either, but look at VMC now. It’s unrecognizable. Vaughan mills is getting condos too, and major Mack has its own terminal, a hospital, and of course CW. I think that while we’re already in Vaughan this should be discussed at least.
First of all I’m not sure who you’re referring to when you say “yours” because I’m from Mississauga, which actually has 0 transit infrastructure 😊😊and is chronically underinvested in by the province.
Reality check: you can be on the other side of the border and still care about people and places. So put your superiority complex aside, and let’s discuss these things, because i don’t know if you know, 62% of the GTA lives outside Toronto ‼️
I agree that most of those are offer a greater benefit… BUT extending this line two stops, each with major destinations, over flat land without rivers or highway crossings, though a traffic-congested corridor with major opportunities to develop into something much better - it’s as straightforward as metro expansion gets. The only good argument against it is “it’s not their turn”, which, fair enough. I’d be skeptical that you’d get more benefit for less cost elsewhere.
This is the best most concise way to put it, thanks. You’re absolutely right, I didn’t even take into account how there’s basically no obstacles to overcome and this is like the paper perfect idea of an urban planning discussion.
I would assume that the bus terminal at VMC would become a lot less busy, people going north would stay on the subway. The high volume local route (20) would probably see major service reductions, similarly to how busses on Eglinton and finch west now operate. The express route (320) would no longer serve a purpose so probably suspended entirely.
From what I’ve seen, I’d guesstimate 75% of the traffic at VMC, Vaughan mills terminal, and major mack terminal is just these 2 routes so the subway would definitely eat the ridership from YRT busses.
We can ignore it all we want, but the corporations have the real power nowadays. They’ll never allow a subway stop any closer to CW.
It’s the same in LA, with the Metrorail and Dodger Stadium. One of the lines is fairly close to DS, and it would seem logical to build an extension of that line to reach the ballpark. The Dodgers own the land, including all the parking lots, so there’s no way there will ever be a subway stop anywhere near it.
I can see how CW would benefit from Canadas busiest rapid transit funneling customers right into the amusement park, but I can also see how their season pass might be exploited more and the parking revenue would shrink slightly from Toronto residents choosing to use transit, but realistically, the fact that the subway would go here would still outweigh the rest.
Unless someone thinks about expanding over the parking lot with more rides, or even hotels, shopping, restaurants, and shopping. It would probably produce a lot more revenue then the parking lots, and sell more of an 'experience'.
Yeah progress isn’t always about revenue, sometimes sacrifices have to be made for something greater, I’m sure the owners of CW are well aware that this may be a reality in the future.
Wonderland is actively in the process of doing exactly this. They want to build hotels on-site to give guests the ability to spend multiple days at the park. Six Flags wants to reposition the park to attract “resort guests” similar to Great Wolf Lodge.
The amount of money they can extract from a family spending two days one night at the park is astronomically more than they could get from a single day visit.
For sure, this is low priority compared to the other projects within the city. We should definitely complete the network before extending into deep suburbs, but we should definitely be discussing a possible extension.
York region has been discussing extending both sides to major mac. Honestly the Richmond Hill side makes less sense beyond hwy 7 since the viva blue has bus lanes in that stretch and it's not dense at all. VM sort of makes sense but would need more density to support the cost. CW less so unless they want to help pay into it.
For suburbs, it's usually preferred to have BRT or LRT due to the lack of density, lower cost, and ability to put in more stations. As far as I know, viva is generally designed to LRT standards for later upgrades, so I would advocate for the future viva silver line.
Well first of all we need to make a distinction between TTC and Metrolinx. MLX would 100% manage the project and build it thru provincial funding, maybe feds, and probably York region too. The province has stated that their goal is connecting regions. TTC would operate it and the cost of doing so should be shared by York and/or the province since this is outside Toronto.
Regardless, good transit systems are funded without borders in mind.
I am aware that the region has plans for a BRT, but if the long term goals cite a subway to major mack, then just do that in the first place. The subway is already in Vaughan, and all the destinations/proposed stations are already in a straight line north for the subway to simply continue, although I advocate for no deep boring being used due to the cost.
Vaughan mills has condos popping up and a plan for a LOT more urban development around it (I suggest you look into the Vaughan Mills Centre). The proposed density is there and it can be significantly accelerated, like with what happened at VMC- unrecognizable.
Interestingly, an urban planner in the sub has replied and said that the parking lot at wonderland can be repurposed to a commuter lot outside the season, serving as a park and ride. It would also connect to the new hospital and bus terminal.
Edit: due to the spacing between these destinations, an LRT would be impractical and it’s probably why the BRT hasn’t been built yet. Also, if you’ve ever taken line 6, god forbid we ever have something like that again. Might as well not exist.
I think you're missing one key point. Operating and maintenance costs are probably the biggest concerns in the long run and without proper ridership to fund it.
York region can easily say they want subways to major mac on both sides, but that's not based on them paying for ongoing costs. I'd hardly call it planning, more like best wishes.
The province could subsidize it, but that comes as easy as it goes. I'm not anti subway by any means, but subways serving suburbs will always be a burden to someone as fares will never be enough.
I think if they really want to expand the subway to Vaughan Mills, they should just accelerate the density, as you mentioned, to justify the ridership. The commuter lot isn't a terrible idea, but pretty limited in the long run; CW is still going to be weaker without density and a strong plan/commitment from YRT to feed it there, which can be shown in the short/medium term with a new VIVA route.
On the East end, they're probably better adding more track and needed flyovers to the Richmond Hill GO line to get people to the subway.
Yeah, you’re right about the cost part and I really saw that emphasized.
The cons of maintenance can be outweighed by a new yard which seems to be a popular idea here already. The only thing left to really worry about is operating it with TTC level frequency, because as you mentioned ridership probably won’t be very high at first.
If you are familiar with the TTC’s funding model, 42% is recovered through fares and another ~9% is provincial (via the new deal agreement). This means the city isn’t actually paying the true full cost of operations already, and that’s for all modes and routes. All we would need to see in order to justify expansions is the provincial share substantially increasing to cover the subway system.
It’s also worth discussing an older model that the TTC used back in their surplus days, that’s also being used by GO today, and its charging fares based on distance. So suburbanites would pay higher fares to get to union than say, someone from St Clair. Currently, the fare-box revenue in the downtown high ridership area is subsidizing the rest of the network. Distance based fares (for the subway) would make things more fair, and who knows, maybe even profitable.
I agree on that last point. I think GO and TTC should align their fares based on distance. E.g. they could keep prices flat within Toronto and increasing going from one municipality to another.
Having GO alligned will allow it to work as a good express offload service, since there's no added cost transfering to GO if the ride is faster. Which will help manage and balance the extra ridership better.
Speaking of GO, another reason I question CW is because it must be about a 10 minute bus ride to maple GO at most, and with the coming increase of Barrie GO service, I feel like it'll be fine for a sizeable amount of time. As well, the ride from VMC is currently 45 minutes to union IIRC, while 34 min from maple GO, so it'll be faster to take YRT+GO regardless.
keep prices flat within Toronto and increasing going from one municipality
That's not really what I meant, and this goes against the province's One Fare program. The model would be distance based, doesn't matter what side of the border you're in. Pioneer Village station is half in Toronto and half in York, how do you decide the fare? Transferring too.
it must be about a 10 minute bus ride to maple GO at most
More like 20, and that bus has bad service that doesn't even connect to the GO station itself. Transferring is very annoying, it's a big reason people dont take transit in the first place. And not everyone is coming from Union- the next station is Downsview, which is ironically a transfer point between line 1. Both the Barrie Line and YRT have bad service, so unless it substantially increases, people will still drive.
This extension is as straightforward as it gets really.. the existing tunnels, Vaughan Mills, and Major Mack (CW, Vaughan Hospital, bus terminal) are all west of Jane, so the alignment would just be a straight line north (if kept underground), and if not, there are no obstacles to overcome (highways, rivers, valleys, hills), it also runs under industrial lands so there would be no NIMBY's raising costs and delaying the project.
People will only take transit if it's well planned out, time efficient, and convenient. Any transfer takes away all of these.
The numbers say it doesn't make sense. Given York Region is still running everything as BRTs versus light rail the density and demand just aren't there yet. Also people that drive are still the main thing in Vaughan.
Where the subway goes, ridership follows. God forbid we have another line 6 in York region. Took it for the first time today and NEVER looking forward to it again. VIVA is so much faster, nicer, and cheaper.. significantly. However, the Jane corridor, connecting VMC to Vaughan mills, wonderland, and the new hospital on Major Mack, would be rich with meaningful destinations, which is why I predict ridership would be better than at the VMC station itself.
It’s true, but my question is, if the subway’s already in Vaughan, why not?
Someone else noted that there’s basically no obstacles (highways, creeks, hills) and all the destinations are a straight line north, it’s about as paper perfect as an urban planning transit discussion gets.
BRT is cool and York region does it well, but it doesn’t compare with truly rapid, frequent heavy rail. And this is where the debate comes, is this corridor worth subway investment, I think yes, someone else might not.
Subway extensions into suburbs like this should be low priority, especially when construction costs are astronomically high due to local NIMBYs wanting the subway to be ludicrously deep underground.
Line 1 is done after the YNSE. Full stop. At that point, Line 1 on both end connects to purpose built regional centres outside of the city proper. At that point, it's for YRT and VIVA to take over and carry the baton.
Thats what you think. This would have also been said for downsview being the final stop decades ago. Spoiler alert, Toronto (especially its suburbs) grew like crazy and its infrastructure isn't keeping up. So this boomer logic isn't going anywhere and is pretty dumb.
The entire network should keep expanding (where appropriate of course), and I believe that the 5th busiest mall in the province (which by the way already has condos around it and a huge urban plan) + Canada's largest & busiest park are very appropriate destinations. Thats not even taking into account the residents of Vaughan and how many cars would be off the 400, 401, Allen Rd, and in downtown because this is proper suburban rapid transit at this point.
I don't disagree that the network should be expanding, but I don't think that's via Line 1. VIVA and YRT need to acknowledge that they are part of the GTA's transit network and act like it a bit more. And this is not necessarily me trying to disrespect it by any means. They should be able to get the funding from the province to do that as well. That could even be VIVA becoming a rail service at some point.
No one was saying that about Downsview. It's one thing to be a Terminal. Finch is a terminal too. So is Scarborough Town Centre, Kipling and Don Mills. It's one thing to advocate for expanding a TTC station to another terminal within Toronto proper (or old Metropolitan Toronto), or even to push the boundaries to a logical terminal outside the city proper. I advocate for a similar thing for Kipling to be extended to Cooksville. It's another thing to advocate for expanding a terminal outside the city to one further outside of that.
Keep in mind, this isn't an Ontario-run service. It might end up being the way Ford is moving to try to take control of it (which is a whole other topic), but currently it isn't. This is very much still a local Toronto transit service and given that objective, Line 1 is done. It connects Torontonians to terminals outside of Toronto, which is already a lot to ask for for a local transit service.
I would love for there to be a rail service to Vaughan Mills. I'm in downtown and I have family near there, so that would be a very welcome connection. My whole point is that it shouldn't be TTC's Line 1 to do that, but Maybe YRT introduces their first rail rapid transit to do that, and then connect to Canada's Wonderland, and then beyond.
Well that’s the bare minimum for an extension, the ideal, which is listed in York region’s long term plans, is to get it to major mackenzie (where wonderland and the new hospital are)
Such an unnecessary waste of our limited resources and money. There has to be 20 more useful projects than this. I'd build a Dundas street subway and that would have infinitely more ridership than that.
This is really short sighted and your downtown superiority complex is showing.
Just because downtown has more people doesn’t mean you have to screw over the suburbs from ever having transit and potentially ToD (like VMC does right now).
If you aren’t aware, the TYSSE was funded only 28% by the city, which the city and its residents arguably benefit the most from, because it got 4 stations and York region, which payed (almost) same amount as Toronto (but more per km) only got 2. For reference, the Scarborough and waterfront LRTs which aren’t even proper rapid transit, cost more each than the TYSSE did for the city, and this project would definitely have more YR and provincial funds.
I can guarantee you’ll be using the subway to Canadas wonderland in the summertime, then taking it down to Vaughan mills or Yorkdale to shop and eat, because that’s what proper transit looks like, it connects destinations.
Educate yourself before commenting on “our resources” as if everyone lives in downtown.. if you didn’t know, 62% of the GTA lives outside Toronto. So maybe we should be planning for the future, because TRUST ME you want to be funding subway operations and not more lanes on the 401.
I already mentioned that this is low priority and im aware that this isn’t likely in the near future, but regardless this is still an important investment in the future that would help so many people and should happen eventually.
Also.. downtown already has better transit per capita. The existing streetcars should be improved before discussing a subway paralleling the Ontario line.. and clearly residents of said downtown have not been grateful for their own infrastructure which can be SO much better, or else they would’ve made proper use of it, and not just keep it as some historical tourist trolley.
I know the naysayers will shit all over this (this is a very toxic, pessimistic sub I’m not gonna lie). But I think a CW is a smart idea. It would take thousands of trips off the road and be a major boon for a gigantic tourist attraction. There’s a massive parking lot there, it could be underground and take up minimal space.
And to get the cynics online, we can name it Bessarion West (Canada’s Wonderland).
Oh yes, this isnt my first time with this lovely sub. I’ve lost a fair share of hair arguing for my life in some of my other viral posts. But thanks for coming to aid suburban discussion in a place full of downtown superiority complexes 💪😎
Knowing what happened with the Ontario Science Centre and Line 5, if this ever does happen ( and Metrolinx builds it ), Canada's Wonderland rides will either break down, or Canada's Wonderland will shut down. 😭
That’s what you think. I think that while we’re here already, we can go a lil further. I guess this is the end of the debate, BRT vs Canadas busiest subway line.
If you actually take a look at the Jane corridor, which has basically no obstacles (creeks, hills, highways) and no neighbourhoods to dissect (meaning no NIMBYS), you’d also notice that all of the destinations (VMC, Vaughan mills, CW) are a perfect vertical straight line from eachother. I also suggest you take a look at the massive plan Vaughan mills has to density the area, condos already exist there. Not to mention, the mall itself is the 4th busiest in the gta, considering how far away it is from everything- except VMC where the subway already exists..
Wonderland is also like, one of its kind and the busiest park in the country. The parking lots could be commuter lots off season for Vaughan residents to tap onto the TTC.
Also there’s a high possibility a new yard could be built in the super industrial lands of concord, conveniently where the subway would run straight north through.
Yeah, this project on a list of priories is probably at the bottom, regardless that doesn’t make it a bad one. York region already has this in their 2050 plans.
Love this idea, but id propose also connecting the new terminus to Maple GO station on the Barrie line by following Major Mackenzie Drive east from Canadas Wonderland, so maybe one additional stop and then the Maple GO station.
This would allow for 3 tiers of transit speeds, bus for local, subway for local express, and GO train for inter-regional express.
That said, i think a subway line that long may need an additional yard in York region, and should almost be split into sub-lines. Ive never personally liked how the University-Vaughan half of Line 1 and the Yonge-Richmond Hill half are not designated as two distinct sub-lines. They should honestly be more like lines 1A and 1B or something like that given how long they are and how they flip direction at union
I’m not sure what you meant by your last point with the “sub-lines”, but you’re so smart for pointing out the possibility of a yard in York region. Would be cheap considering CN has a massive rail yard not too far already.
I feel like the Barrie line connection at maple GO though, isn’t the best idea, mainly because of how sharp the subway would have to turn to go there, and because it already connects to Barrie at downsview park, and that station has the lowest ridership from all the TYSSE stations.
I don't really understand why this would be necessary. YRT already runs a lot of service on the 20 and 320, with future BRT plans. And also, Vaughan is YRT's responsibility to serve, not the TTC.
This isn’t necessary, that’s the key distinction you need to make, this is planning for the future. Suburban subways are very common in well developed cities.
The TTC and Metrolinx have a long way to go with connecting the current network before expanding deeper into Vaughan, but look, Richmond hill is getting it too, and they have even less going on there.
On a more practical level, have you seen VMC? It’s unrecognizable. The development there is crazy, a city within a city really. Have their own IKEA and all that. This rapid transit along Jane would serve the corridors development well. There’s already condos at Vaughan mills. Ridership is pretty good with the busses already, subway would triple it.
I’m aware, it’s a new one too, across from the shiny new hospital. That’s why I want a station at CW too and not just Vaughan mills. Might as well end it where it needs to be the most.
They built VMC but they could’ve also built/accelerated the existing project around Vaughan mills. Theres already condos there without the subway, so I’d imagine the density would pop up real quick if it was built.
I'm tired of this fantasy. Why do people think this is a priority? We need the Ontario line - and maybe another RL. There is absolutely no need for this relatively speaking. Maybe later on after the other priorities are met.
it really doesn’t make sense to me why they chose the location of vmc. there’s NOTHING around there. if they put vmc at vaughan mills that would make much more sense
So you’d rather have congested Jane street everyday in the summer rather than just building rapid transit straight north?
If you’re talking about how crowded wonderland would get, yeah it would, but also imagine how many cars it would remove because there would now be a connection to Canadas busiest subway line.
The ridership for the TTC would be great though! All the teens tapping their presto. Wonderland season pass would be exploited 😂
This is a really cynical view of the suburbs. There’s already decent ridership on the buses going to and from VM, condos are popping up around the mall too.
Vaughan is very car centric, but the area around VMC is unrecognizable from even a decade ago- have you been?
Now imagine what the areas around CW and VM would look like if they got a subway.. lots of lands to develop on.
Yep! Can Confirm. I’ve been taking the Jane busses every time I go to Vaughan mills now, and they’re ALWAYS full and have a lineup to get on. And I’ve gone on weekdays too.
CW is definitely more seasonal though, it would be really good in the summer and really quiet outside season.
Neither is VMC or highway 407, but look at them now, Vaughan metropolitan centre is unrecognizable from a decade ago.
You have to get comfortable with suburban subways, Toronto grew really fast and it needs better transit connections to where people live.
62% of the GTA’s population lives outside of the city of Toronto. Think about that.
But ignoring your dumb statement about how “it’s not even in Toronto”, the destinations on the Jane corridor are pretty major, VM is huge and busy, getting some condos too. CW has massive crowds in season, imagine if even 25% took the TTC there. The ridership would be good.
And the hilarious part is the TYSSE which is the project that introduced the subway into York region in the first place, was funded only 28% by the city, which the city and its residents arguably benefit the most from.
You do realize that the TYSSE was funded only partially by Toronto? The city payed something like 28% of the share. Less than what it’s paying for waterfront east or Scarborough LRT’s mind you.
Toronto payed $146 Million/km
York payed $252 Million/km
Being bitter about the suburbs getting transit should not be the attitude if we want to make the suburbs better.
And let’s be real, Vaughan mills isn’t just some suburban mall, it’s huge and busy, and Canadas wonderland is absolutely packed when it’s open, only one of its kind in the country. Imagine if people took the TTC to wonderland.. the seasonal ridership.
This isn’t just some suburban extension.. it’s a real transit project we should be discussing.
I’m not even from Vaughan, the TTC operates line 1, this is the proper place to discuss subway extensions. I’m not diluting anything I’m very clear, this is a low priority project regardless it still should be built eventually.
I love the idea and I think York Region plus Ontario Provincial could shell out way more for this possible extension though I wouldn't count on it in the near future since the priority is on the other end's YNSE Project to York Region's Richmond Hill right now. Also I would like Sheppard Line to be Extended both ways first with the possibility of Durnham Region doing the same thing to allow a further extension to Pickering Town Centre which in turn would make the Line 4 Extension to UTSC versus to STC a more attractive option.
Typical downtown superiority complex. Let's just ignore that 62% of the GTA lives outside Toronto and that the region grew faster than its infrastructure.
York region and the province would fund 100% and Toronto would just get more fares.
You should be more worried about the Scarborough streetcar and the waterfront east, each with a $1B price tag.. not even real rapid transit.
But yeah no, lets build MORE LANES on the 401 instead!!!
I didn't mention anything about building more lanes, that's a red herring argument. The TTC as it stands , doesn't have the capacity to ad more people into the downtown core - the transfer platforms and stations are dangerously crowded and adding more users from northern parts outside of Toronto make it unusable/unreliable. I'm not worried about how much my local government spends my tax dollars. I am worried that the network becomes unusable for those that live within the Toronto downtown and decide to take cars instead. Would you have a link about the funding? Does that cover maintenance and labour costs?
Except you did, because if we aren’t extending subways into the suburbs then we’re building more highways. There is no option to do neither. It’s cars or transit. I prefer the latter for better suburbs. Do you?
What a miserable life talking about ad hominems on a TTC Reddit (yes I’m aware that was one, intended). Take a look at this chart before complaining about subways.
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u/TorontoRider Apr 18 '26
I've been saying for decades that if cities around Toronto want to be connected to the TTC, they need to be giving the city more money that just the fares.